I just witnessed a parking meter attendant issue about twenty or more parking tickets on Bay, Liberty and Market Streets between the hours of 8:45 am and 9:15am. Yes, they were parked illegally based on the fact that their meters were expired (no money in them).
Certainly my beef is not with the attendant as he is just doing his job. Although I did see him continue to write one ticket as the owner of the vehicle ran outside to put money in the meter in a vain attempt to avoid the ticket. No luck Bud, you gotta a $15 fine. I am guessing that the managers who run the parking division do not preach compassion and discretion evidently (gotta get that money I guess).
This is a daily occurrence and is totally unique to the Downtown experience.
Those people who received a ticket will likely now have a bad memory of Downtown as a result and will try and avoid visiting Downtown in the future.
My point is to raise attention to this one example of why, in my opinion, the parking meters and what the fines and anxiety they create entail are a reason that Downtown struggles to turn the corner.
I would ask the city council to seriously consider the removal of all or at least some of these outlying meters to test the theory I propose which is that parking meters are an antiquated idea whose time has passed.
You want Downtown to thrive?
Step One: Eliminate parking meters and the fines that go with them.
That's my opinion on Downtown Redevelopment.
Thanks for reading.
Mark Hemphill
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
It's even less hard to choose to instead go to the very vibrant areas of San Marco and Riverside that don't have parking meters.
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
That is the point I suppose that you do have to, in fact, put coins in a meter to park on a public street that is already owned and maintained by the general public in the first place.
The anxiety starts with: "Oh no I don't have any quarters!" or "Where can I go to get quarters?" (good luck with that).
And if you did have quarters then you have additional anxiety to remember to go 'feed the meter' so you leave your lunch, appointment, meeting to walk outside to go put more coins in the meter.
It creates an additional step that adds to the hassle.
We have very little need for meters in DT a few stores like UPS, FedEx and the very front spots at the Landing need them the rest do not. The purpose of the meters in Jax is to artificially stimulate the parking lot business. Why we chosen to stimulate those lots baffles me. There is plenty of parking in DT but the meters give the impression that it is a hassle. Riverside and San Marco have much greater parking demands than DT and get by with 2 hour signs.
Parking Meters are like, 50c / hr, parking tickets are only $15. Some parking garages dt are $10/day. If I want to park downtown for a day it makes more sense for me to feed a meter all day for $4. This is silly. Im taking up a nice curbside space to sit in an ofice all day. Lots of my coworkers do this regularyl. We need 2 hr free parking that is enforced if you go over. This will encourage all day visitors to use garages and improve the perception of DT for the casual visitor that just has a quick meeting or is stopping in for lunch. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Two hour parking is pretty much unenforceable because someone would either need to see you pull into the spot or there would need to be some other way of determining when someone pulled into a spot and once that car goes over the time limit there would need to be some type of signal or alert shown so those who enforce it would know that a vehicle has been there too long.
Doing this would also make it difficult for someone to go back out and feed a meter if they needed to be there longer than 2 hours. When I worked downtown I had a monthly rate and it was much cheaper than $10/day and I was very close to my building. I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for the convenience of having a guaranteed place to park and not have to hunt for a meter that I need to feed every 2 hours.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5114-p1100906.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2953-p1030126.jpg)
It's certainly odd that vibrant urban districts within a stone's throw of Downtown like Five Points and San Maco and within a couple hours drive like Savannah (pictured) and Winter Park (pictued) have two hour parking limits in lieu of parking meters... yet Downtown Jax has meters (and more paid parking spaces than vistors and workers combined).
Maybe there are some lessons to draw???
QuoteTwo hour parking is pretty much unenforceable
Two hour parking limits are actually very enforceable and are in wide use nationwide.
Quote from: marksjax on May 02, 2014, 10:02:44 AM
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
That is the point I suppose that you do have to, in fact, put coins in a meter to park on a public street that is already owned and maintained by the general public in the first place.
The anxiety starts with: "Oh no I don't have any quarters!" or "Where can I go to get quarters?" (good luck with that).
And if you did have quarters then you have additional anxiety to remember to go 'feed the meter' so you leave your lunch, appointment, meeting to walk outside to go put more coins in the meter.
It creates an additional step that adds to the hassle.
In modern cities you can pay via smartphone: http://us.parkmobile.com/members/why-park-mobile/
I do agree this system is antiquated and like so many things need upgrading. How about the need to even drive a car downtown? Better bus\trolly\mass transit systems would eliminate the need to drive downtown!
Quote from: carpnter on May 02, 2014, 11:19:52 AM
Two hour parking is pretty much unenforceable because someone would either need to see you pull into the spot or there would need to be some other way of determining when someone pulled into a spot and once that car goes over the time limit there would need to be some type of signal or alert shown so those who enforce it would know that a vehicle has been there too long.
Doing this would also make it difficult for someone to go back out and feed a meter if they needed to be there longer than 2 hours. When I worked downtown I had a monthly rate and it was much cheaper than $10/day and I was very close to my building. I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for the convenience of having a guaranteed place to park and not have to hunt for a meter that I need to feed every 2 hours.
Actually, if you must enforce parking at limited time intervals, it's the cheapest way to do so. Since Jax doesn't seem to want to join the rest of the tech/smartphone app world, that same ticket writer would be provided with good shoes, a pole stick and a piece of chalk. They would then walk a route and mark the tires of cars. Making sure the loop took the allotted amount of time, if they come across a car with their chalk mark, then it gets a ticket. Being that this is how every city handled this in the 20th century, it is very enforceable. It would also have the added benefit of putting a uniformed presence on the street to help ease the fears of suburbians that they'll be violently slaughtered on the street by some wayward homeless patron.
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
Johnny, you have to remember where you are my good man. This is a website/forum populated with folks who believe everything should be free and a living wage is owed to everyone. Whether it be healthcare, wifi, or parking, there will always be some evil wealthy (preferably white) person who owes it to society to pay for their "stuff".
Quote from: RMHoward on May 02, 2014, 12:55:06 PM
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
Johnny, you have to remember where you are my good man. This is a website/forum populated with folks who believe everything should be free and a living wage is owed to everyone. Whether it be healthcare, wifi, or parking, there will always be some evil wealthy (preferably white) person who owes it to society to pay for their "stuff".
;D
I thought he was being sarcastic?
Quote from: RMHoward on May 02, 2014, 12:55:06 PM
Quote from: johnnyliar on May 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
It's really not that hard to put some coins in the meter...
Johnny, you have to remember where you are my good man. This is a website/forum populated with folks who believe everything should be free and a living wage is owed to everyone. Whether it be healthcare, wifi, or parking, there will always be some evil wealthy (preferably white) person who owes it to society to pay for their "stuff".
You could be on to something. Every on-street parking space could be privatized and auctioned off to the highest bidder. Only those owning a parking space could park in it. A free-market utopia would flourish downdown.
We also have to look at this in the context of Jacksonville. There is almost no reason to go downtown, in Jacksonville. If we want downtown businesses to succeed and for downtown to grow and flourish, then I agree that on-street parking should be free for 2 hours.
However, in theory there is nothing wrong with meters. It's a *huge* revenue source for most major cities in this country. If there is firm reason to go/be downtown, then people will pay to go/be downtown. But people don't really want to be hassled or to pay to go/be downtown if there is no reason for them to.
That said, carrying change can be seen as both antiquated or necessary. Many people across this country still carry change for laundry, myself included, so it's no biggie for meters, either. I do agree with Johnnyliar that overall it is just not that difficult to place a few quarters in a meter. I'm accustomed to using apps, paying with card, and inserting coins, and despite all of the recent technological advances, if I know I won't be needing to feed the meter again, throwing in coins is *much* faster than either using an app (which is most useful if you need to feed meter remotely) or using a card (which often takes so long).
But if they are downtown looking for a parking space have they not determined at that point they have a reason to go/be downtown? Or do people just drive around downtown to park for the fun?
why would anyone go downtown that doesn't work at one of the banks, the courthouse or the jail ?
Assuming you mean during the day when the meters are in force?
Quote from: marksjax on May 02, 2014, 10:02:44 AM
The anxiety starts with: "Oh no I don't have any quarters!" or "Where can I go to get quarters?"
I paid a meter on Laura St with my check card; First they'll give you an option of paying 1 dollar worth of time (2 hours) but you can lower it to 50 cents worth of time (an hour). Don't get me wrong, I hate meters.
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
We also have to look at this in the context of Jacksonville. There is almost no reason to go downtown, in Jacksonville. If we want downtown businesses to succeed and for downtown to grow and flourish, then I agree that on-street parking should be free for 2 hours.
However, in theory there is nothing wrong with meters. It's a *huge* revenue source for most major cities in this country. If there is firm reason to go/be downtown, then people will pay to go/be downtown. But people don't really want to be hassled or to pay to go/be downtown if there is no reason for them to.
That said, carrying change can be seen as both antiquated or necessary. Many people across this country still carry change for laundry, myself included, so it's no biggie for meters, either. I do agree with Johnnyliar that overall it is just not that difficult to place a few quarters in a meter. I'm accustomed to using apps, paying with card, and inserting coins, and despite all of the recent technological advances, if I know I won't be needing to feed the meter again, throwing in coins is *much* faster than either using an app (which is most useful if you need to feed meter remotely) or using a card (which often takes so long).
I don't know if revenue is a good argument, do you? Aren't meters intended to regulate parking policies rather then a revenue vehicle. I thought I actually read about some lawsuits regarding this.
I do agree though on your first point. I don't go downtown during the week except to go to the courthouse. When I do that, I stop at OTF food truck and head home. And even stopped at Chamblins 2x to buy books strictly to support that biz. I don't go to Chamblins anymore though, Courthouse and Food trucks.
And if they are going to have them it would be nice if they worked. Went down for One Spark and got there at 4, and needed to feed the meter for two hours. As luck would have it I actually had 4 quarters to get me the two hours needed until 6. Well my luck ran out when the machine ate the last two quarters without moving the meter. And yea, i banged on it. Luckily I did not receive a ticket.
Quote from: Stephen on May 02, 2014, 02:52:05 PM
why would anyone go downtown that doesn't work at one of the banks, the courthouse or the jail ?
Is that a serious question?
^^^Well, there isn't much there. So yes, serious question probably. We on this forum are a special group of people who will support downtown out of personal beliefs. Most people in metro Jax probably really have no reason to go downtown except for Jags games or concerts. And even downtown isn't the primary office hub of the region, so most people who work in an office in Jax don't even have a reason to come downtown.
Quote from: edjax on May 02, 2014, 03:07:11 PM
Assuming you mean during the day when the meters are in force?
Are they not in force at all during the evening? That changes my thoughts a lot...guess I'm just used to metered street parking in 99% of places I ever go. Or exorbitant garage parking that will break most Jaxsons' banks, Lol.
Quote from: Apache on May 02, 2014, 03:11:45 PM
I don't know if revenue is a good argument, do you? Aren't meters intended to regulate parking policies rather then a revenue vehicle. I thought I actually read about some lawsuits regarding this.
Whatever their intentions legally and on paper, they are a huge source of revenue for cities. Meters themselves can be a large part of that, but so are tickets for not paying ;)
I think correlation is a big problem with meters. Someone coming in to go to the courthouse during the day and having meter frustrations might correlate that with an issue that they would have to face 24-7 downtown, so it turns them off even from visiting on weekends or during evenings.
Also, people who have a bad experience with something tend to avoid anything related to that something if at all possible. Someone with no perception of downtown who comes for the first time and fails to pay or feed a meter properly, receives a ticket, has trouble finding a space because they are used to a different parking environment, etc, may not come back because the one experience just turns them off.
I say the city/SE in general has a bunch of pussies who are fat and lazy and can't figure things out easily and who cringe at paying for stuff they're not accustomed to paying for, but this is the environment most of the Sunbelt has to deal with, the City of Los Angeles included. Because of the actual people of Jax and the way the city is/functions, Downtown should be a stress-free, hassle-free, pleasant experience. If that means removing meters, then so be it.
I am arguing from the small business perspective that any impediment to a customer being able to get to me is a negative. This would apply certainly to any daytime business Downtown but oddly enough the nighttime businesses also are impacted as I see people feeding meters at night quite often.
If you look at it from the customer service aspect the parking meters are without question a negative influence/hindrance.
The city government institutions that are located downtown essentially are charging you a fee for the pleasure of going into their buildings and interacting with a city employee. Most likely because you have to, not because you want to.
The city government's idea of customer service is much different in that respect.
^^^Yea, I feel you. But honestly, it's this way in most/all major cities. Jacksonville's downtown doesn't suck because of parking meters. It sucks because it sucks.
And frankly, for bars, I have piped in on this countless times on this forum, but people who plan on really drinking/doing their thing on a Thurs-Sat night should not be feeding meters, paying a private lot machine, or doing anything with their personal cars AT ALL. Cabs cabs cabs. But the fact that 99.99% of Jax bar patrons drive themselves to a bar is indicative of how glued to the car Jaxsons are, not how parking meters are a hindrance to downtown, or why downtown sucks.
The more I think about this issue, the more "bleh" I am on opinion about meters. I live in a city that easily costs a person $500-$1000/mo just to own/park a car *anywhere* (my apt building has basement parking for $250-$300/mo and my office building has basement parking for $500-$600/mo, meters are ~$2/hr, garages are $30/8+ hrs for day parking, there is a constantly moving street parking in non-metered resi neighborhoods to avoid sweepers, and if you're car is towed it will cost you a minimum of $500 to retrieve IF you can get there within 90 minutes). I could go on. So to me owning/driving a car is certainly a privilege, not a right, and certainly not when drinking.
Even in Atlanta, another sunbelt sprawler, I was subject to meters everywhere, and certainly received countless tickets. It was a hassle and made me mad sometimes, especially when I would see THREE meter maids hustled around my car doing nothing but slapping paper and throwing off mega attitude. However, it's just a fact of life.
Jacksonville's downtown won't magically improve or get better if meters are gone. It takes a little more than that ;)
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2014, 04:13:02 PM
Cabs cabs cabs. But the fact that 99.99% of Jax bar patrons drive themselves to a bar is indicative of how glued to the car Jaxsons are, not how parking meters are a hindrance to downtown, or why downtown sucks.
And to that point, Mark, do you think drinking and driving laws are a hindrance to customer support of bars? Frankly, whenever you go out, since you can't drive (legally) and nighttime transit is nonexistent/inconvenient, people should plan to spend $$$ for transportation to get there. Drinking is not really a right either.
Feeding a meter or paying a $5-10 parking fee is actually cheaper for drinking out at night than springing for a cab, Uber, or anything else. But in this case, people need to spend the extra money.
It is for this very reason (largely) that in most major cities downtowns aren't even the "go-out" place. Clubs are in warehouse districts away from resi areas, mostly, and bars are all in the neighborhoods. Downtown bars are relegated to work-related bars, and special occasion bars, not "neighborhood" bars. People like the convenience of walking to the bar. It's the reason that Midtown Manhattan and Lower Manhattan are a lot less lively than their residential counterparts, and why the Loop, and FiDi Boston and FiDi San Francisco are relatively dead compared to other parts of the city.
simms3,
You make a compelling argument I must admit. And also that many big city downtowns are not the 'go to' spot for nightlife.
And with your background I respect your take on the cost's associated with travel and parking issues in big cities.
So, perhaps the removal of meters here in Jax would not make any difference, that is certainly possible.
But I just can't help but think that doing something/anything bold such as this might help nudge the needle a little bit to the positive side and might spark an interest in casual day trips to explore the downtown area if nothing else in the beginning.
But realistically I get your points and can't argue with the logic.
^^^yes, sparking day trips out of curiosity from everyday people who don't have the patience to be tried at the meter could actually do wonders for downtown.
I don't think it's the parking meters. I think it's the malls. Before malls, people didn't mind paying a little for parking to shop downtown. Or they parked at Sears, where it was free, and walked to the stores around Hemming. Or rode the bus to Hemming, and all the stores were right there. Or someone dropped them off and picked them up when they were done. It was no big deal, and since at that time, Jacksonville had sprawled out only to about University Blvd to the south, it wasn't too far for that. The air conditioned malls, where one could go from store to store in comfort, did in the stores downtown, not the parking meters. It was just too easy to go to the mall.
There used to be meter maids in scooters driving through downtown constantly, with a piece of yellow crayon on a wand. They'd mark each tire with a yellow mark about once an hour. If they came through and you had two marks, you would get a ticket. Easy to control two hour parking, if Jacksonville wants to pay, I guess the current PC term would be, meter persons.
I keep a few dollars worth of quarters in my glove box so I have them handy for parking meters. No big deal. When I go downtown, I'm going to the UPS store, the Library, or the Landing. Something like that. Nothing earth shaking. If I can't find a parking spot, I go home rather than get annoyed, and come back later. Or spring for hourly parking. I can see if you had to make an appointment, and couldn't find a spot, that would be majorly annoying. But if it's that important, spring for hourly parking.
If you work downtown, it makes sense to have a monthly spot. Four years ago before my job moved out of downtown, they ranged from a low of about $30 at the convention center (ride the Skyway, which was included before it was free) to a high about $90 if you park in a parking garage right where you work in attached parking. Some businesses offset all of part of the cost for their employees.
Replace meters with time limit signs. Make it easy to park; do something to encourage people to visit.
And while you're at it, remove all or most of those blasted one way streets. What in the world is the purpose? Anyone know? That would also create a more friendly reconnect with Springfield regarding walkability. The one-ways are a racetrack. Navigating across them feels like being the frog in a Frogger game.
Debbie, good point about the malls and the decline with DT. No doubt that was the trigger.
I didn't realize there was parking enforcement that far back either. I do remember a lively Hemming Plaza and being dropped off there on the city bus from Arlington when I was a kid.
You don't see that anymore (kids going DT on the bus to wander around, it was an adventure, lol). Guess moving the main bus location north caused some of that also.
Irv, couldn't agree more on the one way street issue. Really intimidates those who are not familiar with DT.
Quote from: stephendare on May 02, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
Actually, Downtown will 'magically' begin to improve if the meters are taken out.
You would know if anyone would.
I like that thought!
Quote from: marksjax on May 02, 2014, 06:57:45 PM
simms3,
You make a compelling argument I must admit. And also that many big city downtowns are not the 'go to' spot for nightlife.
And with your background I respect your take on the cost's associated with travel and parking issues in big cities.
So, perhaps the removal of meters here in Jax would not make any difference, that is certainly possible.
But I just can't help but think that doing something/anything bold such as this might help nudge the needle a little bit to the positive side and might spark an interest in casual day trips to explore the downtown area if nothing else in the beginning.
But realistically I get your points and can't argue with the logic.
Which argument? I don't think Simms is arguing against the removal...he seems to be stating pros and cons and also cautioning that it wouldn't be a magic pill to solve downtown's problems.
That said, I don't understand your premise that because other successful big cities have implemented parking fees in their CBDs that that means parking fees do not have an adverse effect in Jacksonville. As you point out, those cities have far more to do and far more reason to be downtown than Jacksonville does. So how is it an appropriate comparison? Should we have the same rental rates as SF? Just cause they can doesn't mean we should.
It seems quite reasonable that parking meters could be a hindrance to the growth of retail businesses in a struggling downtown AND that a successful downtown can overcome this obstacle. So remove them for now, and when downtown Jacksonville resembles even a fraction of Midtown/Downtown Atlanta, Manhattan, or SF then we can put them back in.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 03, 2014, 12:16:47 AM
It seems quite reasonable that parking meters could be a hindrance to the growth of retail businesses in a struggling downtown AND that a successful downtown can overcome this obstacle. So remove them for now, and when downtown Jacksonville resembles even a fraction of Midtown/Downtown Atlanta, Manhattan, or SF then we can put them back in.
Bingo.
PM, I guess I was arguing that the removal of the meters would be enough of a change to transform DT into a bustling district. I was looking at it from the perspective of citizens who occasionally go DT and have to hassle with the meters and parking tickets, and why they might not want to return.
simms3 was pointing out that there were more problems with our DT than the meters, essentially comparing vibrant cities and their success despite the meters.
Given that perspective I asked myself this question: "If our DT was a busy, lively and bustling DT (like it was pre 1970) would I even be concerned with the parking meters?" Probably not.
I certainly agree with you that their removal or reduction might be a good place to start turning the corner.
Only way to find out is to try it but I seriously doubt our city leaders are likely to take that gamble.
Wow...deja vu! Don't look now, but some of you have just agreed with Jerry's sage recommendation of nearly four years ago! ;)
Quote93
Downtown / Re: Can Downtown Survive?
« on: July 06, 2010, 02:41:39 AM »
I’ve changed my mind about the need for parking meters downtown. They’re not needed, and should be replaced with a blanket 2 hour free parking limit throughout downtown. The city has the technology to enforce that limit already in place. The few remaining downtown merchants will also help by reporting overtime vehicles. Have a “three strikes rule†that entails issuing 3 warning per year for overtime offenses, followed by $25 citations. Spell the rules out on the warnings. This will discourage downtowners and office workers from parking long term on the street, and relieve the occasional visitor from fear of fines.
The two top concerns my customers have when visiting downtown is getting mugged, and having their car ticketed or towed. The parking meters, though not enforced after 5 PM (officially 6 PM) only contribute to visitors’ angst. My business operates after 5 PM, and all the meters do is act as spooky tombstones in a creepy cemetery. Visitors are already nervous about visiting downtown, and the meters reinforce that apprehension. Removing the meters would be akin to planting neat rows of flowers across the lawn. A little less stressful, Huh? Isn’t that what Downtown needs: a little less stress?
San Marco has the right idea. Last week I had to visit my broker, Scottrade, that just moved to San Marco from Downtown. Scottrade was formerly located at street level on Laura between Bay and Forsyth. It was a pleasure to do business in San Marco. I found a parking space right away, and there were no parking meters to pay. I crossed the street, did my business at Scottrade, and left in less than 10 minutes. There are a lot of little 10 minute transactions that do not happen downtown because of the parking meters, and because the parking meters are being fed all day by office workers.
I asked the manager of Scottrade why they had moved to San Marco, after 7 or so years downtown. I remember when they opened downtown and how excited I was about having them nearby. The manager told me that doing business was difficult in downtown, and that his customers complained about how inconvenient it was to visit the downtown office. Parking was a major concern, followed by the preponderance of vagrants and general seediness of the area. He stated that parking in San Marco has not been an issue for his customers.
I also asked the manager if, when downtown, Scottrade had any contact with the downtown community, specifically DVI. He said no, nothing, never met DVI. On the other hand, San Marco rolled out the red carpet, and Scottrade was showered with attention by the various community organizations that operate there (I can’t remember which ones).
So, let’s get rid of the downtown meters and start enforced 2 hour free parking. I guess DVI will have to find something else to adhere their stickers to.
Quote from: marksjax on May 03, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
PM, I guess I was arguing that the removal of the meters would be enough of a change to transform DT into a bustling district. I was looking at it from the perspective of citizens who occasionally go DT and have to hassle with the meters and parking tickets, and why they might not want to return.
simms3 was pointing out that there were more problems with our DT than the meters, essentially comparing vibrant cities and their success despite the meters.
Given that perspective I asked myself this question: "If our DT was a busy, lively and bustling DT (like it was pre 1970) would I even be concerned with the parking meters?" Probably not.
I certainly agree with you that their removal or reduction might be a good place to start turning the corner.
Only way to find out is to try it but I seriously doubt our city leaders are likely to take that gamble.
or possibly at least up the time limit a bit so people weren't running back and forth to cars. I mean it's not like the police are out chalking tires to see if the car is passing the limit anyway
Like the meters, I don't see how eliminating one-ways will magically solve downtown. Certainly removing meters and creating more "small town" two ways can help make it easier for people to park for free and maybe to get around, but the fact that people are "so confused" by one-ways is odd to me. I don't think I can recall any downtown I've been to that doesn't have a ton of one-ways.
Usually when people advocate getting rid of one-ways, it's more "pro-pedestrian" and "anti-car", not to make it easier for cars to get around. Usually the purpose of one-ways *is* to make it easier for drivers, but it usually increases the speed of traffic, and that can be a hazard if there are a lot of pedestrians.
I contend that there are just a ton of people in Jax who sadly don't get around or out of Jax much. It's going to sound elitist, but Jax is easily one of those cities where despite all the transplants, there are somehow a ton of people who really haven't left and Jax is their only/main experience.
Here on MetroJax we are often advocating for things that have been implemented in Greenville, SC. Greenville is a great *little* town, and I would in fact place it in the small town category. I think there are practices there Jax can implement, but despite how small Jax is, it's actually a much larger and unwieldy town than Greenville. I don't think downtown should necessarily be viewed as a small town downtown. Downtown Jax should be the economic engine of the region, and it will suffer until it is restored to that position. Jobs jobs and jobs are the best and brightest hope for downtown. Eliminating meters and creating one-ways will not create jobs. In fact, if downtown sees a lot more employment at some point, narrow one-ways will not be a good thing as traffic won't be able to squeeze in.
People aren't confused by one-ways in general. It's Jax's ruins of the loop one-way system that has screwed things up for many. For example, if you were on Duval, wanted to head south and missed Laura Street, you're forced to drive six blocks to Jefferson before the next opportunity to turn south. That's insane and extremely confusing for anyone not familiar with the quirkiness of DT Jax. So I'd argue that removal of meters (I assume free two-hour time limits.....Cleveland is a big city experimenting with this) and two-waying a few streets to create a more context sensitive atmosphere on some blocks (I believe San Diego has done with some streets in the Gaslamp District), would be good if your goal is to make DT Jax a more end user friendly downtown environment. With that said, these things alone will not change DT by themselves. But doing a lot of small common sense moves and policy changes can do a lot to facilitate positive market rate growth in DT Jax and the surrounding neighborhoods.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548913_YhmaJ-M.jpg)
DT Cleveland - The Health Line BRT corridor (Euclid Avenue) offers free one hour parking in the heart of DT Cleveland. While the metro overall may be in decline, it's downtown is healthier and more lively than DT Jax.
Below, the two-way section of 5th Avenue in San Diego's Gaslamp Quarter.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567311301_gkvFb-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1429670980_3CLcsxz-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1429747376_xdb9xHK-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1429747239_jxVPJQp-M.jpg)
All of the east/west streets in the Gaslamp, south of Market Street, are two-way. They've even gone as far as putting four way stop signs up at many intersections instead of full blown traffic signals. It successfully slows down auto traffic, making it a more pedestrian friendly environment.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1429748171_BVLG7m8-M.jpg)
Two way streets aren't a revitalization savior but if the goal is to slow traffic down and make a few streets more pedestrian friendly corridors, they do work for that. In the end, a mix makes the most sense depending on traffic count and livability goals. For example, two-waying Bay, Forsyth, State/Union, Main/Ocean, etc. makes less sense than doing the same with Hogan, Julia, Monroe, Duval, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2014, 08:19:31 AM
People aren't confused by one-ways in general. It's Jax's ruins of the loop one-way system that has screwed things up for many. For example, if you were on Duval, wanted to head south and missed Laura Street, you're forced to drive six blocks to Jefferson before the next opportunity to turn south. That's insane and extremely confusing for anyone not familiar with the quirkiness of DT Jax. So I'd argue that removal of meters (I assume free two-hour time limits.....Cleveland is a big city experimenting with this) and two-waying a few streets to create a more context sensitive atmosphere on some blocks (I believe San Diego has done with some streets in the Gaslamp District), would be good if your goal is to make DT Jax a more end user friendly downtown environment. With that said, these things alone will not change DT by themselves. But doing a lot of small common sense moves and policy changes can do a lot to facilitate positive market rate growth in DT Jax and the surrounding neighborhoods.
+100%
The street direction grid has always perplexed myself and others I am with, plus added a complexity whose purpose is lost on any rational individual. And then you have to pay for the privilege of arriving? Simplify.
The Gaslamp doesn't stand between office workers and the 5 and is basically a residential/tourist neighborhood with lots of pedestrians. I think that's the only difference between that area and "downtown", of which DT SD does have one ways leading to the highway to effectively funnel traffic in/out during rush hours.
I'm not opposed to either, just trying to point out that neither 2-waying streets or removing meters will all of a sudden bring the people and make downtown successful. 1-ways and meters are basically a fact of almost every downtown in America. Some are more successful than Jax, and some are like Jax and not successful.
Sounds like Jax should simply have a more effective 1-way system that's easier to understand for drivers going in/out (a la East/West from 95) and 2-way all of the N-S streets such as Laura.
Quote from: simms3 on May 04, 2014, 12:06:33 PM
The Gaslamp doesn't stand between office workers and the 5 and is basically a residential/tourist neighborhood with lots of pedestrians. I think that's the only difference between that area and "downtown", of which DT SD does have one ways leading to the highway to effectively funnel traffic in/out during rush hours.
Jax is similar, except a lot more empty. The majority of office space in DT Jax is south of Adams Street. Nothing stands in the way of it and I-95 via the Main Street, Acosta and Hart Bridges. For the majority of downtown's side streets, one can pitch a tent in the middle and not worry about getting hit by cars. For most, traffic would move just as efficient if their signals were replaced with four-way stop signs.
QuoteI'm not opposed to either, just trying to point out that neither 2-waying streets or removing meters will all of a sudden bring the people and make downtown successful. 1-ways and meters are basically a fact of almost every downtown in America. Some are more successful than Jax, and some are like Jax and not successful.
I agree they aren't the end all but I don't see a strong argument in keeping them either. Turnover was an issue in 1950 when there were three times as many people and not many parking decks. Now it's a ghost town.
Comparing the situation to the NBA, in 1990, you needed an entire team to guard a prime Michael Jordan. In 2014, you would not need to dedicate five guys to slowing down the 51 year old version. In short, how we addressed a problem 60 years ago may not be the right way to address today's environment.
QuoteSounds like Jax should simply have a more effective 1-way system that's easier to understand for drivers going in/out (a la East/West from 95) and 2-way all of the N-S streets such as Laura.
Jax really needs to decide what it wants to be. When that's determined, everything else, from transit vs roadway investment to 1-way vs 2-way streets, etc. should fall in place.
Actually, I may get pushback on this, but personally I like the optional red/green either way lanes on Bay Street. At least it's not always one way only. Depending on the situation, it can be changed and left that way as long as needed. I went down there after a concert and three lanes were going away from the concert and one towards. But at least you could still go either way.
While we're trying to figure ourselves out here in Jax, let's behave like a curious college freshman and try a few different courses to see what we are good at. At least experiment with something new as opposed to staunchly defending the status quo.
After the Great Chicago Flood, they simply banned street parking in the Loop. When the flood was cleaned up they made it permanent.
Buses were suddenly on time. They were able to deploy enforcement to more chronic neighborhoods where double parking was common.
I agree with Stephen's analysis on the rise of parking enforcement and the decline of downtown. There is definitely a parallel of trends there, though as he said, not the only cause.
In Seattle they used to have a free transit district in the central city to try to keep cars out of the urban core. It was great because I could get from Westlake Center to Columbia Tower at no charge. I would park for free near Seattle Center, ride the Monorail to Westlake and then bus free to Columbia Tower (where parking was $$). They recently eliminated this last year (to pay for Sound Transit tunnels) but it was a great way to help people avoid driving in the core.
Create a free transit district inside the COJ urban core, eliminate street parking completely.
Quote from: edjax on May 02, 2014, 03:14:17 PM
And if they are going to have them it would be nice if they worked. Went down for One Spark and got there at 4, and needed to feed the meter for two hours. As luck would have it I actually had 4 quarters to get me the two hours needed until 6. Well my luck ran out when the machine ate the last two quarters without moving the meter. And yea, i banged on it. Luckily I did not receive a ticket.
The meter may have been broken....or you may have parked at a 60 minute max. meter. There are also a few 30 min. meters near retail establishments like UPS that want/need high turnover of spaces.
Stephen, that research is really insightful. Great effort. Thank you for sharing it.
116 broken parking meters costs the city thousands a month.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/investigations/120-parking-meters-broken-downtown
Quote from: I-10east on January 19, 2016, 10:42:59 PM
116 broken parking meters costs the city thousands a month.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/investigations/120-parking-meters-broken-downtown
They were running a preview piece this morning that showed a bunch of city employees were parking in these spots all day because they know which ones are broken. If they got rid of them all and made it all 30 min or whatever parking and just ticketed violators this wouldn't be an issue.
There's no reason they can't be ticketed. There's time limited parking all over the country that's free, but enforced for turnover.
Did anyone notice all the covered parking meters on Monroe St. yesterday next to the library? What was that all about? Who replaced Jack Shad or is he still in charge of parking?
Quote from: Noone on January 20, 2016, 08:55:55 AM
Did anyone notice all the covered parking meters on Monroe St. yesterday next to the library? What was that all about? Who replaced Jack Shad or is he still in charge of parking?
Jack Shad left several months ago. That's part of the problem.
Quote from: stephendare on January 20, 2016, 08:54:44 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 20, 2016, 07:40:03 AM
Quote from: I-10east on January 19, 2016, 10:42:59 PM
116 broken parking meters costs the city thousands a month.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/investigations/120-parking-meters-broken-downtown
They were running a preview piece this morning that showed a bunch of city employees were parking in these spots all day because they know which ones are broken. If they got rid of them all and made it all 30 min or whatever parking and just ticketed violators this wouldn't be an issue.
30 minutes? why in the name of god would you do thus? to be a dick?
"or whatever"
The point wasn't a specific time, but to get rid of the meters and designate a maximum time for the spot, whatever is appropriate.
How coincidental that this thread gets revived just one day after the lead article on Downtown Greenville.
Not only has free but time-limited (and it is enforced) parking been a staple of the revitalization of Greenville, it has just recently been expanded to allowing one hour of free parking in the city's 10 garages as well. The on-street parking spaces are mostly 2 hours but some are 1 hour, 30 minutes or even 15 minutes. The 15 minute ones are typically the one or two spaces closest to the doors of a quick transaction business, like a bank.
In the almost 20 years I have lived here, I have probably paid to park Downtown a total of 3 or 4 times total, and I visit DT 1-3 times a week on average. Weekend evenings are actually the hardest times to find a space, not during business hours.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 20, 2016, 12:34:21 PMNot only has free but time-limited (and it is enforced) parking been a staple of the revitalization of Greenville, it has just recently been expanded to allowing one hour of free parking in the city's 10 garages as well.
I like this idea.
city reports that in some cases, the meters just needed new batteries (backup when solar doesnt generate enough energy)...roughly half of the broken meters should be fixed this week
It would be much more friendly to those visiting downtown to remove the meters and strictly enforce time limits. The city could continue to make money off of fines, but visitors would have the freedom to drive into downtown for lunch without worrying about losing their coins in the meter (happened to me countless times), coming up to a dead / broken meter, or having to worry about keeping change in the car at all times.
If downtown wants people to come out from the beaches they'll need to lure them with free parking currently offered by the Town Center and pretty much every other establishment in the city.
Validating garage tickets (up to a certain time limit) with a purchase would also be great way to reduce the number of people parking on the streets.
Somebody, Anybody, go and check out the NEW ADA HANDICAPPED PARKING spot signs at the DCPS building at the Southbank Riverwalk 2014-190 next to the JEA (District) 2015-777 property. It has VISITOR on the signs. There are TWO. HUGE news story. Is there any other ADA HANDICAPPED parking sign designed like this within 2014-560 zone? Jack Shad is gone so who gets the credit for this POSITIVE action? Beth Meyer?, Dr. Vitti?, Scott Shine?, Ray Pringle?, Ashley Smith-Juarez?, Lori Boyer?, Aundra Wallace?, Jim Bailey?, Catherine Varnum?, Melissa Ross?, Capt. Jim Suber?, Tera Meeks?, Carla Miller?, Angela Corey?, Tom Cline?, Tony Lopez?, Jim Piggott?, Tom Ingram?, Paul Astleford?,
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: stephendare on January 20, 2016, 09:24:26 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 20, 2016, 08:57:46 AM
Quote from: Noone on January 20, 2016, 08:55:55 AM
Did anyone notice all the covered parking meters on Monroe St. yesterday next to the library? What was that all about? Who replaced Jack Shad or is he still in charge of parking?
Jack Shad left several months ago. That's part of the problem.
Yes. Back to Bob Carle, who signed the triple dipping contracts for Mark Rimmer's parking garages. The parking commissioner job needs be completely redesigned. Jack Shads method of administration should be looked at as the rough model.
Paul "Interim" Crawford (OED) was asked to speak at the 1/20/16 Rules Committee meeting by Rules Chair Schellenberg about the parking meter situation that was disclosed by the media. Nobody on city council knew what the heck was going on in Duval county.
Paul "Interim" Crawford immediately apologized for this Bob Carle guy being a No Show because he had to run out and FIX a meter.
There was no mention of the trippleh dipping contracts. I was sitting right next to Carla Miller.
The big news story should be the VISITOR ADA HANDICAPPED Parking signs at the DCPS building property. Is this the first of its kind? Seriously.
Quote from: stephendare on January 20, 2016, 11:55:31 PM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on January 20, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
It would be much more friendly to those visiting downtown to remove the meters and strictly enforce time limits. The city could continue to make money off of fines, but visitors would have the freedom to drive into downtown for lunch without worrying about losing their coins in the meter (happened to me countless times), coming up to a dead / broken meter, or having to worry about keeping change in the car at all times.
If downtown wants people to come out from the beaches they'll need to lure them with free parking currently offered by the Town Center and pretty much every other establishment in the city.
Validating garage tickets (up to a certain time limit) with a purchase would also be great way to reduce the number of people parking on the streets.
why should downtown have meters? There are thousands and thousands of spaces to park in in the garages.
??? I specifically said to remove the meters and use the garages with a validation system. The street parking would just have a hard limit (during business hours) so that there could be space for people popping in for lunch, banks, etc.
I've seen plenty of other cities enforce parking limits on free spaces with a chalk line on a tire.
Oh, I just read it with the wrong inflection haha. ;)
So how do we actually go about making this happen? I feel like we've been talking about it for years. ..