Metro Jacksonville

Having family in Columbus, OH I've seen a slow, but successful revitalization taking place in their urban core. One of the big attractions downtown is the North Market. Think of it sort of as an indoor farmers market, but more of an incubator for small food related businesses. There are several small restaurants within that serve fresh locally produced foods / beers / coffees / pastries, etc. Farmers, decor makers, spice makers, etc rent small spaces with-in to sell there goods. The building is two stories so you can take anything you order upstairs to eat or drink while you look down on the people below.

Now for my idea.... Take one of these buildings in the core and convert it into a "South Market." The Riverside Arts Market and Jacksonville Farmers Market are not too far away. For those who set up shop there and want to try something a little more permanent with higher foot traffic on week days, they'd have a place to incubate their business. This would not only attract those working downtown, but those visiting, Sunday church goers, and those who don't live in the core something "different" and "new" to try.

Now for the difficult part; "Where to put this?" Well there are plenty of surface lots to build something new on. I'm imagining somewhere between Adams and Ashley on Julia, Hogan or Laura. This would be in a pretty high foot traffic area, near smaller already established businesses and relatively close to a Skyway station.

Thoughts?

(http://i.imgur.com/RWnXqRA.png)
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It's not a bad idea, in fact I like it (though I get excited to see anything downtown :) ) The question is, will it work? With the huge farmers market on Beaver, and the Arts/Farmers market at riverside would it be too much? I suppose if this was open everyday it would offer something that doesn't already exist, at least in the case of the RAM.
I like the idea of having things other than just fruits and veggies.

One of the other cool things I forgot to mention about the North Market is they advertise local events and businesses inside. If we were to do something like this I wouldn't expect it to directly compete with the Farmers Market / Arts Market, but rather be a more permanent spot for those who'd be willing to make a small investment.

Sounds interesting. Perhaps the Jaxsons Night Market is a good test for something like this?

I've always wished the Jacksonville Farmer's Market on Beaver Street would move forward with something like this.  They already have a building available for it and have mentioned it in their future plans on several occasions.

Has the JFM been approached about turning it into something more like North Market or even the French Market in NOLA? It takes some effort to convince friends to go because of the "industrial sketch factor" but they usually turn into regulars.

Any chance it could be featured on I-95 signage?

I haven't approached anyone about it...Honestly I wouldn't even know where to begin, but figured one of our members would.

The main goal of this wouldn't be to eliminate the Farmers Market, but to expand / broaden it's basic offerings into the core. The this "South Market" would be more like a a group of shops dedicated to selling foods, arts, pottery / cookware, local dishes, beverages etc. Very small spaces would be rented out, similar to the street marts you see in Asian countries. There would be a few larger spaces for more permanent tenants or those with more money to invest. 

Quote from: JaxNole on March 29, 2014, 12:58:44 PM
Has the JFM been approached about turning it into something more like North Market or even the French Market in NOLA? It takes some effort to convince friends to go because of the "industrial sketch factor" but they usually turn into regulars.

Any chance it could be featured on I-95 signage?

They've mentioned they eventually plan to do it.

QuoteWe are currently in the early phase of exploring with possible "vendor partners" concepts and ideas for developing the undeveloped 6 acres we own (2 acres of gravel to the east and 4 acres including a gutted 28,000 sf closed grocery store to the west).  If financially feasible and executed, this could more than double JFM and its current approximate 25,000 visitors a week. 

Our thoughts currently range from a variety of meat, bakery, seafood, salads/soups, dairy/cheese/ice cream, candy/sweets, plant/flowers, gourmet/ethnic food, local brewery/beer, winery/wine, coffee/tea, kitchen/restaurant wares/supplies, etc. businesses to a canning/demonstration kitchen, meeting/classroom space, and even an added mid to upscale lunch/dinner restaurant in addition to an event venue/plaza.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-sep-jacksonville-farmers-market-seeks-to-expand

Sounds like a neat idea, but I'd be concerned about the lack of rooftops downtown in relation to the viability of this project. In fact, i see the lack of people actually living downtown as its larget obstacle to recovery.

^ I think the fact that the current farmers market already gets 25,000 customers a week kind of negates the whole not enough people thing. I shop there and I live on Fleming Island. Plus, a similar location is Chelsea Market in NYC, where people regularly visit from Long Island and New Jersey to shop and eat. This type of establishment is pretty much a "if you build it, they will come" as you're ever going to get.

Medellin, Colombia has this amazing business incubator called 'El Hueco', more or less 'The Hole In The Wall.' El Hueco, is big, it sprawls through a block of old buildings not unlike many that dot our downtown. It has all of the comforts of a major mall, and the atmosphere of the worlds largest flea market/swap meet/picnic/produce market all rolled into one. Stairs, elevators, corridors, twists and turns there must be 1000 little businesses in embryo. It is so cool that now tourists from the EU and USA are including it in their tours in Latin America. What makes it so special is the buzz that comes from being able to buy gem stones, hot dogs, pants, books, guitars, tools, oranges, computers, tires, gold, washer and dryer and a gold fish all in the same very energetic spot. Exploring the endless maze and making discoveries offer the shopper a unique experience.

All we have to do is encourage the Beach Blvd or Ramona or Northside flea markets to relocate downtown, in an old store or warehouse location. It would be very cool indeed.

I doubt that ever happens. Before the farmer's market built their new sheds, there was a push to get them to locate a little closer to DT. They didn't want to do this because the tenants wanted to remain at the Beaver Street location, the importance of truck movement and access, they already owned their land, it appeals to more than just millennials and yuppies, it's located in what many consider a food desert.  I would assume the Beach Blvd, Ramona and Northside flea markets, which are somewhat different from a public market, would be similar in that they serve a certain community, demographic and have larger facilities than what's available in downtown. There's also something to be said for having these places continue to anchor the established communities they are currently located in.

Good points. All of those locations have been where they are for many years. They do generate a lot of traffic, but are very neighborhood oriented. Does make you wonder if there's enough business for one more similar operation in DT.

The farmer's market and Beaver Street aren't that far away from the Northbank's historic core and the Skyway gets you halfway there.  Another option would be to extend the Skyway west to the market (less than a mile), allowing connectivity to Myrtle Avenue and Dennis Street warehouse districts at the same time. The market already attracts 25,000 people each week and the warehouses and plants in the vicinity employ thousands, when combined. It would also get it within a 1/4 walk of some transit dependent neighborhoods like Robinson's Addition. It would probably boost Skyway ridership more than the proposed extension to Brooklyn would.

The Farmer's market is located in 32209, with 32206 and 32202 (the city's poorest zip code) close. All these very poor with low income make building a new farmer's market a virtual impossibility, unless someone has millions sitting in a slush fund needing to burn the hole through their pocket. Nothing new will happen in areas that have no real income growth prospects.

That is not to say that Brooklyn or LaVilla could not see something, as they begin to in-fill, but my bet is that if you are going to see something like what you should from Columbus, it would either be at the Beach, near Durbin or at the very least, San Marco. People who go to the Blanding or Beach Flea Markets are not the core customers of an urban market.

As a last resort, someone may make a pitch to Regency Square Mall to do something like this, as new homes go up in Arlington, this might be an attractive location for a mini-version or starter market, to test the waters.

Of all those locations, I live closest to Regency Square area, and have watched its decline over the years. There are endless suggestions floating around for its future, and last I heard the current owners want to keep it a retail mall similar to what you have now.

Everybody in this general area is totally automobile-oriented, we automatically hop in our car to go anywhere. So where people like myself shop is not really neighborhood dependent as much as choice or variety dependent. And of course, convenience and ease of access dependent.

My point is that there are quite a number of nomadic shoppers who will converge on a location, no matter where it is, if the variety and access is good, like the RAM in Riverside - this is 12 miles or more from my house.

Building something in an area that doesn't seem to have enough rooftops or existing population can attract migrating bargain hunters. Build it and they will hopefully come.

QuoteBuilding something in an area that doesn't seem to have enough rooftops or existing population can attract migrating bargain hunters. Build it and they will hopefully come.

Businesses do not operate with a "hope they will come", any business with that attitude is not a business, but rather a charity.

RAM is successful because of the advocates in Riverside Avondale who worked to make it happen. It had the push from RAP and local patrons who were bound and determined to see it through and make it work. Others in Jax have tried to copy it (King Street, Shoppes of Avondale, San Marco), but there is nothing like shopping for organic Jax items under the shade of the bridge with live music and the river as the backdrop. The river is the key, as I see it. Regency would need a hook like the river to get people there, not sure it has it, but some business owner will figure out a way to make it work, or turn it into a parking lot.

Quote from: mtraininjax on March 30, 2014, 08:20:56 AM
The Farmer's market is located in 32209, with 32206 and 32202 (the city's poorest zip code) close. All these very poor with low income make building a new farmer's market a virtual impossibility, unless someone has millions sitting in a slush fund needing to burn the hole through their pocket. Nothing new will happen in areas that have no real income growth prospects.

That is not to say that Brooklyn or LaVilla could not see something, as they begin to in-fill, but my bet is that if you are going to see something like what you should from Columbus, it would either be at the Beach, near Durbin or at the very least, San Marco. People who go to the Blanding or Beach Flea Markets are not the core customers of an urban market.

As a last resort, someone may make a pitch to Regency Square Mall to do something like this, as new homes go up in Arlington, this might be an attractive location for a mini-version or starter market, to test the waters.

You should check out the neighborhoods around DC's Union Market. Pretty similar to Beaver Street and vicinity. A mix of food industry, distribution, wholesale businesses adjacent to a historic market. Definitely not Georgetown or Adams Morgan.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-rjbw5z9/0/M/P1660233-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-8Xrpdq2/0/M/P1660237-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-nzq3LBP/0/M/P1660246-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-vqhH7bs/0/M/P1660243-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-BR7gmDD/0/M/P1660238-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-n76JXvX/0/M/P1660240-M.jpg)

surrounding neighborhood:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-JdJ9CwF/0/M/P1660256-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-Pdtvs2m/0/M/P1660259-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-hS9RHCm/0/M/P1660258-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-WqqCnsw/0/M/P1660252-M.jpg)

QuoteYou should check out the neighborhoods around DC's Union Market. Pretty similar to Beaver Street and vicinity. A mix of food industry, distribution, wholesale businesses adjacent to a historic market. Definitely not Georgetown or Adams Morgan.

Lake - With all DUE respect, comparing Jax to DC is ridiculous. DC is a destination city, Jax is not. It makes all the difference in how tax revenue is collected and spread out. DC has a MUCH bigger pool of revenue to spend on the poorer parts of DC.

If we are going to do comparisons, let's stick with cities similar to Jacksonville in similar character. No capital cities, no destination cities, a real apples to apples comparison, if possible. Simms may be able to shed some light on this as well.

I don't see DT Jax coming back without more residents, and mass businesses will not invest without the residents. No matter what events or facilities are built. Granted Brooklyn is filling in, but at this pace, it could be 10-20 years before it fills in and LaVilla too.

With the Greyhound people balking at moving, no leadership from the mayor to make this happen, Park View stymied too, you get the sense that our downtown is tied to the city leadership, which there is a void at the moment. Just disappointed in the lack of vision with our city leaders for Downtown.

Have you visited Union Market?  That area isn't surviving off tourist. Detroit's Eastern Market and the businesses around it are another example. We ought to stop treating Jax as if it's a special case, red headed stepchild of the US. There are many applicable things we can learn and apply locally from a variety of cities from across the country.

^^Absolutely. As a microcosm of this argument, take Chamblin's downtown bookstore. A great idea in a very slow and neglected area. Now it's a destination. People want to make s special trip to look for "that particular book" or just to browse through a unique collection.

They go out of their way to visit an area they wouldn't even have considered previously.

I think if you build something unique and entertaining, they will come. We're an auto-centric population after all, so we have to have a destination.

Mtrain, Lake is merely comparing ONE NEIGHBORHOOD, that  no one outside of DC has ever heard of, to the Farmer's Market concept being discussed here. No two cities are exactly alike, and they don't need to be to make comarisons or draw lessons learned.  Lake, maybe a thread on Fargo  or Sioux Falls is in order.

That said, your point about residential is true, Downtown needs more of them, LOTS more.  The city's leadership needs to realize that, and concentrate on that.

In the learning from series, Alexandria, VA will run this week and then Fargo will be up.  I'm going to try and get a Vanguard friend, who is a Fargo city councilwoman, to say a few words for that story.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2014, 09:25:27 AM
Have you visited Union Market?  That area isn't surviving off tourist. Detroit's Eastern Market and the businesses around it are another example. We ought to stop treating Jax as if it's a special case, red headed stepchild of the US. There are many applicable things we can learn and apply locally from a variety of cities from across the country.

More examples are Lexington Market (Baltimore), Westside Market (Cleveland) and Atlanta's market near Sweet Auburn.

Um? I believe we also have some Dodge City material.

The Farmers Market will not move regardless of the caliber of its surroundings. Lake alluded to the truck issue and the farm-market industry understands very well the rate hike's involved when you move off of railroad accessible property. Cha-Ching!

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2014, 11:04:35 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2014, 09:25:27 AM
Have you visited Union Market?  That area isn't surviving off tourist. Detroit's Eastern Market and the businesses around it are another example. We ought to stop treating Jax as if it's a special case, red headed stepchild of the US. There are many applicable things we can learn and apply locally from a variety of cities from across the country.

More examples are Lexington Market (Baltimore), Westside Market (Cleveland) and Atlanta's market near Sweet Auburn.

Also City Market in KC. http://thecitymarket.org/ I know suburbanites here who basically never go Downtown unless they  have to, with the regular exception being the city market. The area is pretty well revitalized, but the market has been a longtime staple of the River Market district, with all of its ups and downs. It hasn't always been a desirable area.

Digging into our photo archives....

City Market - Kansas City
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(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/i-2RFLQMZ/0/M/P1380306-M.jpg)

Sweet Auburn Curb Market - Atlanta, GA
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Atlanta-Streetcar/i-T4zW3zk/0/M/P1670020-M.jpg)

Eastern Market - Washington, DC
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Westside Market - Cleveland, OH
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Cleveland/i-FfnNj8w/0/M/P1640182-M.jpg)

Lexington Market - Baltimore, MD
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Baltimore-MD-2009/i-VMmnm74/0/L/P1250801-L.jpg)

Eastern Market - Detroit, MI
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Eastern-Market-Detroit-2011/i-kJ7XsdX/0/M/P1460116-M.jpg)

North Market - Columbus, OH
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-X2XL2qC/0/M/P1560940-M.jpg)

Findlay Market - Cincinnati, OH
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Cincinnati-2012/i-dct4rqq/0/M/P1560090-M.jpg)

Milwaukee Public Market - Milwaukee, WI
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/i-V56Vz8Z/0/M/DSC_0042-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/i-RtPZ6BB/0/L/DSC_0036-L.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2014, 09:25:27 AM
Have you visited Union Market?  That area isn't surviving off tourist.

Absolutely right.  I'd bet the vast majority of tourists to DC have no idea the Union Market is even there.

http://unionmarketdc.com/

This seemed to cause a good discussion before... does anyone still like the ideas in this thread for The Landing's redevelopment?

I don't know if the numbers would work out for something like this on the Landing property. It would be great for the Jacksonville Farmers Market and that side of I-95. Here are a few images from Pike Place Market:

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(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-PJ7BmND/0/L/DSCF5940-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-DrZWNzg/0/L/DSCF5942-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-DzDhVn9/0/L/DSCF5945-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-6MdPbzJ/0/L/DSCF5946-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-FndG93p/0/L/DSCF5949-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-D4DhKBS/0/L/DSCF5950-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-4X6DCgh/0/L/DSCF5951-L.jpg)

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(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-8LrsWC5/0/L/DSCF5958-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-PdNq68w/0/L/DSCF5959-L.jpg)