Then and Now - Progress in Downtown Jacksonville
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/then_and_now/Adams-at-Laura-Then.jpg)
Preserving history - such a simple concept, apparently so difficult to execute.When a historic building is demolished, some people say, That's progress . Yes, that's true, but is all progress good? Progress has shown us that it is possible to see the horizon from parts of LaVilla. Progress has shown us that it's silly to maintain an older building that one might own, when it's much more cost effective to dynamite it and plant grass. Most importantly, Progress has shown us that while people might like looking at older buildings, they would much rather park on it's foundation.Today, MetroJacksonville.com takes a look at some of the Progress that we have made over the last 30 years.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/396
Where are they in your diatribe? The original city hall is located where the old library sits, 122 N Ocean. It was fashioned after all of the old county city hall/courthouses, with entry points at all 4 corners of the site. A beautiful building, demolished in the 50s to make way for the library, which I am thankful we still have, at least! The old post office on Forsyth was unlike any building, was more like a lighthouse in its tall composition. Now it too is gone, replaced by a "bank building".
Downtown only falls down because people have left the core. Imagine the number of buildings that would fall in Chicago or New York City if people moved out of the city to the suburbs in mass droves. But the opposite may be said about Atlanta, where historic buildings have been kept in the downtown area and incorporated into the new development. It all depends on the mindset of the particular city. So far, our city has shown tolerance for demolishing and rebuilding. We will need more than letter writing to save old buildings, if we are to change our ways in Jacksonville.
Great before and after shots. It is true that sometimes "progress" can be a bad thing.
Post Office (once stood on the corner of Forsyth & Hogan)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp01560.jpg)
Post Office (coming down for Furghgotts Department Store on Adams & Hogan)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp01562.jpg)
Old City Hall Building (demolished for the Haydon Burns)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc13145.jpg)
Haydon Burns Library (shortly after it opened in the late 60s)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n032917.jpg)
Mtraininjax, interesting enough, people did leave the heart of places, like Chicago in droves, just as fast as they left inner city Jax. Yet, the difference is we continue to have a mentality that demolishes structures, not for new buildings, but for surface parking lots. That act negatively affects the public tax dollar push to revitalize the core, because the lots are pockets of visual blight that must be overcome if you really want people walking around and enjoying the core.
I agree that to change things, you'll need to do more than writing letters. So what would you suggest? A change in policy, like banning surface parking lots in the heart of the core? Or forming an official historic district in areas of downtown, that still has a high concentration of them? Please elaborate.
Out of all of the buildings that have come down, the old Post Office hurts the most. Imagine what could have been. :(
The reason I left the buildings you mentioned out was because of the fact that I included buildings that were either replaced with vacant/surface parking, or in a few cases, a hideous parking garage.
Obviously, I could have shown damn near every block of LaVilla, but I think with the five above, you get the point.
My experience has been that real reward rarely comes without real risk. Find a project you are passionate about and go all in. You don't have to be a millionaire to effect change downtown. That's one of the great things about Jacksonville right now. Anyone with a vision can do it. 13 minute productions is proving that.
I don't think there is anything wrong with writing letters either. Keeping those who a more concerned with the bottom line than Jacksonville in check is everyone's duty. This way we don't end up with another Berkman plaza or jail downtown.
Man, whatever happened to bold architecture, like the old post office? The thing is, all these buidligns seem to be replaced by bland, or even downright ugly substitues. It is a shame.
What happened to the bold architecture? It was torn down and replaced with garbage. This city has been run by people with zero vision for many, many years. The current occupant at city hall is a man-boy without a clue. He want ferris wheels, hot dogs and water slides. Other cities give incentives for people to move to the core. Our city allows companies to tear down old buildings and build parking lots.
QuoteMy experience has been that real reward rarely comes without real risk. Find a project you are passionate about and go all in. You don't have to be a millionaire to effect change downtown. That's one of the great things about Jacksonville right now. Anyone with a vision can do it. 13 minute productions is proving that.
The problem is, for me to invest my limited resources, and take on considerable risk, I need to see evidence that the community and it's leadership 'gets it'. Fortunately, the grass roots do, but no one above that level does.
I don't want to put my ass on the line to ADD to the urban fabric, when the city and the supposed 'pillars' of the community are three blocks away SUBTRACTING from the urban fabric.
There has to be an understanding of what needs to be accomplished. There has to be a vision. And most of all, there has to be the intestinal fortitude to make the hard decisons required to bring it about. I can 'pretty up' my little corner of the core, but I can't prevent someone else with far deeper pockets and influence from underming that which I (and many others) are trying to accomplish. That is were DVI, JEDC, the Historical Commission, DRC, the City Council and the Mayor all come in. They have to be on board, and understand that getting DT to where it needs to be ,is going to mean saying NO sometimes.
Downtown aerial before parking became king
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n032578.jpg)
In an atmosphere like that, there's bound to be a few well designed structures...right.
Duval County Courthouse - torn down for the parking garage on the corner of Forysth & Market
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp01556.jpg)
By the way, the midrise prairie school building in the background was also torn down for the same garage. Only the old Courthouse Annex remains in the middle of the block.
Drew Company - this block came down for One Independent Square (MODIS)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp01917.jpg)
The Lionheads from this building remain on the corner of Main and Bay.
Board of Trade Building / Main Street - entire building fabric has been replaced by garages and surface lots
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n033166.jpg)
Main Street in its last years as a place with pedestrians and buildings lining it.
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/postcard/pc5792.jpg)
St Charles Avenue in New Orleans? No this is Main Street, near Confederate Park in 1904
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc17944.jpg)
Don't let anyone tell you..."Jax didn't develop the way that places like Savannah, Charleston or New Orleans did". The major difference between architecturally rich places like that and Jax is that we discovered how to use dynamite. :'(
While groups like Urban South, Main Branch and 13 Minute Productions are great, their infill projects are only as successful as the neighborhoods and surrounding urban context they're being integrated into. Until we figure out a way to stop the loss of unique urban building fabric (even if the spaces are vacant) for inferior designed architectural projects or blighted uses, such as parking lots (all the shrubs in the world don't change the fact its a parking lot), then it won't really matter what specific projects rise in sea of waste.
You are literally making me cry. This is so sad. You would think we were talking about Rome or Alexandria. This isn't ancient history. Those structures were up and functional in my grandparents and parents lifetimes. If even half of those structures had been saved and main street still looked like that, Jacksonville might still have , you know CHARM!
Some of the same people that are responsible for all of this are still pulling the strings. They blame it on the fact that people left the core of the city many years ago. Now, people are actively trying to return and they are doing the same crap.
Part of the current problem is that the City Council, which is uneducated and not qualified to do pretty much anything, keeps overruling the people that are supposed to be the professionals on the subject.
If the city council is not going to heed the advice of the Planning Department and Historic Commission, why do they even exist?
The city council is making decision that they are in no way qualified to make.
(http://metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-866-dsc_0003.jpg)
Although still in the process of being raped of the treasures it was once loaded with, the core, although on life support, still has pockets that retain their charm. We've already lost enough, that will have to be replaced with infill development. When will we get on board, protect what's left, get off the treadmill and really move forward?
They need to stop adding stupid to the water supply.
I would offer that part of the solution to the ever
expanding parking lots is to buy a sign for each city
officials desk. It would read:
"IT'S MASS TRANSIT STUPID!"
Maybe, just maybe, someone would get the idea. By the
way, we left off the old Streetcar Barns in Riverside
which "HAD TO BE TORN DOWN FOR THE BRIDGE APPROACH"
then the bridge approach completely missed the oldest
part of the lot! Me suspects it was torn down for the
purposes of NOT building a historic trolley, long
before any other City even thought of the idea... Of
course our leaders don't lead they follow, so when
Orange Park, Baldwin, St. Augustine, Fernandina Beach,
and Callahan all have Heritage Trolley lines, then,
and only then will we "NEED" one.
http://www.familyoldphotos.com/5c/images/apr5/FLjacksonvilledepot3.jpg
Original Union Station
Another area of mass destruction is Union Station,
where we tore out everything but the 1919 building,
the tracks, platforms and subways for a Convention
Center that we now can't use! Oh and that older
portion of the Terminal on Bay, we let some fool store
paint chemicals in there until a hobo set it on fire.
North of the Station, there is an early Version of
Fairfield, where we plowed up every building in site.
Do trolleys count too? They also tore up that
beautiful old Turtleback Streetcar just West of the
viaduct off Beaver Street! Two more off St. Augustine
Road near University too. IDIOTS one and all.
HELL BELOW, WE'RE ALL GONNA GO
By Curtis Mayfield
But they don't know
There can be no show
And there's Hell below
We're all gonna go
Lord, what we're gonna do
Tell me what we're gonna do
If everything I say is true
This ain't no way it oughta be
If only all the mass could see
But they keep talking 'bout don't worry
They say don't worry
They say don't worry
They say don't worry
Our officials (Alley-Oop, the Mayor, and Ogg the JTA
director) have made a career of filming GEICO
COMMERCIALS for television, but it's time these damn
Neanderthals pulled their heads out into the Sunshine.
Ocklawaha >:(
yeah, what happened to bold architecture? I guess with firms like KBJ around you can understand the blandness that we see around us.. not much of a stretch to make that connection.
Unfortunately the cost of construction today prohibits some of the more ornate architecture. As the old saying goes, "they just don't build them like the used to".
QuoteUnfortunately the cost of construction today prohibits some of the more ornate architecture. As the old saying goes, "they just don't build them like the used to".
Even more reason to save as many remaining older structures as possible, instead of converting them into parking lots.
Why are we showing all of this?!? I think we are giving downtown Jacksonville a bad rap! I'm sure that the folk @ city hall will lighten up and do better than what they are doing now. Give them some time. >:(
This stuff has been happening for over 50 years! How much time does this city need to change this devastating mindset? To be the best, you have to accept and deal with your problems, instead of sweeping them under the rug and never addressing them.
While photos like this may make some sick to the stomach, they clearly illustrate a huge problem we need to deal with and eliminate, if the goal is to have a vibrant pedestrian oriented downtown. I'd also say the bad rap does not come from photos, but from a trip once you get off I-95 and make it down into a core largely void of activity and synergy. Go visit the downtown of a peer city and that rap gets even worse. You can get tricked into coming down once, but not twice. Lets deal with the real issues, instead of hiring consultants to come up with pipe dreams that will never work, if the basics aren't in place.
My family came back to Jacksonville in 1955, my aunts having been born here in the teens, my father having started first grade at Mattie Rutherford in 1918. Except for college, grad school, and a tour as a circuit riding county manager in Eastern Kentucky, I have been back here since 1971. Most of the buildings that I have seen torn down that might have been saved were done in response to a specific need but without consideration of any overall plan. Some, frankly, had outlived their economic usefulness or would have been difficult to retrofit due to asbestos or room size and construction.
Many could have been retrofitted. But until recently, there has not been a core group of people concerned and there has not been a market for these buildings. We all know that it takes a consistent strong voice of many people to influence the design and guide the changes in downtown. I am really enjoying the ongoing dialogue on this website about Jacksonville. Thank you for making this happen.
Thank you for taking the time to read - I think the title says a lot. There is nothing that can be done about the buldings that have fallen, but what we shoud do is use this as a wakeup call to say that we don't need to lose anymore buildings, and moreso, we REALLY don't need any more surface parking lots.
Any idea when the Downtown Design Review Committee will meet in regards to the First Christian Church preservation?!?
Downtown street scenes are long gone.
However, there are still a few charming streets that take one back to a time period long gone.
Maybe KBJ Architects can be convinced that preservation is a positive reflection on their creativity.
Demolition of this some what historic building takes away from KBJ's architectural expertise.
Quote from: Maria E. Mediavilla on May 17, 2007, 02:07:19 PM
Maybe KBJ Architects can be convinced that preservation is a positive reflection on their creativity.
Demolition of this some what historic building takes away from KBJ's architectural expertise.
maybe not...
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/kbj_demolition/after-demo/DSC01869.JPG)
Looking at the pics of the Lavilla area brought back many memories. Me and my Mom lived in Lavilla (817 West Duval Street) and I played around the area a half block from Davis and Duval (a coin laundry was on the northwest corner) where the old Flagler Hotel once stood, and rooming/boarding housees on the northeast and southeast corner, and an Army/Navy store was on the southwest corner. I watched movies as a kid at the Ritz Theater (now an upscale theater), and also at the Strand down on Ashley Street close to Jefferson (the popcorn was always too salty).
This area of town (Lavilla) yes was the Harlem of Jax back in those days (early to mid 60's when we lived in Jax when I was a kid). It was alive with African American businesses such as restaurants, laundries, confectionaries (stores), meat markets and small super markets, and clothing stores. People were always everywhere especially at night and what I remember most is the music blaring from the bars and clubs on Ashley Street.
I also remember the many times my Mother took me downtown which was always alive with people. I used to love looking up at the skyscrapers because I was raised in a small town before my Mom took me to Jax to live with her. From Lavilla you could always see the skyscrapers (Barnett Bank, Hotel George Washington, the old Independent Life, etc., and though these buildings are now classified as mid risers, they seemed super tall back then). One of the posters in this thread, I think Oklawaha, left out two important department stores that my Mom and I shopped at, J.C. Pennys and Woolworths, right across from Hemming Park. Hemming Park had a public restroom that was downstairs (it was awfully smelly and nasty but at least we had a public park), and there was also a Grandstand on the northwest corner. Also, the City buses met and lined up at Hemming Park (Plaza) (right across from where the new library is now), and Hemming was the Central hub or hook-up for the City bus system.
All business was conducted downtown, paying bills, banking, shopping, movies, almost everything.
The picture showing Mainstreet in its last heyday with shops, restaurants, and filled with Pedestrians was taken on the corner of Main and Duval where in the early 70's when downtown was really on the decline, there was an Italian Restaurant on the southeast corner (can't remember the name (Bafano's?)), and on the northwest corner was a hat shop, and I frequented a bar called the Flamingo Lounge which was right next to the hat shop; this was from about 1974 to around 1979; the Italian restaurant would be razed in the late 70's I think, and the hat shop along with the Flamingo Lounge would be razed sometime in the late 80's and would remain a vacant lot for many years until the new library would be built with an adjacent parking garage.
Someone in the forum said that we are negative in exposing all of this; not so. Jax has always wanted to be bigger and better than she could ever be (a proud city), and we were on the way but somehow lost our way. Jax was the Jewel in Florida's Crown for many many years, first in population, first in stature, first in everything, and the State Government catered to Jax first for many years; now we are far down on the list even in back of cities that we know are smaller than Jax. Consolidation I guess was a good thing, but to me we were clamoring to regain that "first" status that we lost. Had we not consolidated, I think Jax would be in even much worse shape than she already is in. We would have a very small population for a big metro (probably under 100,000), and no telling how this would have effected the overall mentality and heart of the City; so we can, as I stated before, look at consolidation as maybe a good thing.
At any rate, this craziness has to stop. Jax has to be more proud of who she is, plan and prepare better for her citizens and the city as a whole, and restore downtown to a new glory and forget the former glory because that can never be recaptured; but we can forge ahead and reshape Jax into the number one important city that she should be and is, ensuring that the people's best interests are first and the beautiful new buildings and other attractions are built to support the people who call Jax home.
Heights Unknown ;)
Quote from: Lunican on July 02, 2007, 06:12:10 PM
Quote from: Maria E. Mediavilla on May 17, 2007, 02:07:19 PM
Maybe KBJ Architects can be convinced that preservation is a positive reflection on their creativity.
Demolition of this some what historic building takes away from KBJ's architectural expertise.
maybe not...
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/kbj_demolition/after-demo/DSC01869.JPG)
What building is this being razed? Is that the Ambassador Hotel in the background being converted to lofts/residential? It isn't the old Federal Reserve Bank Building is it?
Heights Unknown
It was the church right next door to KBJ. They've owned it for years and let it rot. then they decided to tear it down for more parking.
This site is now a grass lot.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2008, 09:33:57 AM
This site is now a grass lot.
Should we be surprised? Maybe we can grow some tomato plants there.
As we stood in front of the Florida Theatre, a WWII era friend of mine remembered registering before the Draft in the building across the street (occupied by the Ballet) He pointed out the Ugly facade that was put over the graceful arch.He commented that Jax lost it's head in the 50's,considered the past architecture an embarrasment, and started wiping out the history or bastardizing it.This was back when you drank your Whiskey straight,coffee was black and your meat was red! ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2008, 09:33:57 AM
This site is now a grass lot.
And still is 7 years later.