Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1148-p1000744.JPG)
Recently, the Jacksonville Historic Society released a list of twelve significant endangered historical structures. Let's take a look at them and suggest a few more.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/463
Aside from it's history, there is nothing special about the Seminole Club building.
The same goes for Mount Vernon (Alexandria, VA) and the Lorraine Motel (Memphis, TN). However, there is one significant fact that separates it from the other endangered buildings shown here. It's owned by Chris Hionides. That means it has a snowball's chance in hell of seeing anything positive happen with it soon.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Martin_Luther_King_was_shot_here_Small_Web_view.jpg)
Lorraine Motel
Stop fooling yourself and be realistic. Ask 100 people in Jacksonville what the Seminole Club is and 100 will tell you "I duh know". It does not carry the historical signifigance of the two buildings you mentioned.
That Florida Baptist Convention Building is hideous looking.
No one claimed it has the same historical signifigance as those buildings. However, it is one of downtown's most endangered historic buildings and it's history is unique locally.
QuoteAside from it's history, there is nothing special about the Seminole Club building.
Again, aside from their history, there's nothing architecturally unique about neither Mount Vernon or the Lorraine Motel. For example, you'll find several Lorraine Motel styled buildings on Philips Hwy. I'd also wager that if you asked most Jacksonvillians about them and the Seminole Club, the answer towards each would be exactly the same...."I duh know".
#16 wasn't historic either. since peyton was born before that church was built, right Ennis? You and your crew are just choosing to think that because you have some grudge. You don't have enough information about the subject to keep riding them like you have been. Anyway it's too late because the church is coming down right now. and also, I'd be careful if I were you with the slander, being a graduate architect and all...btw..what does that mean? That you are trained to stay up til 3:30am writing blogs about other architects? Come on. You really need a girlfriend or something to better occupy your time. Ciao...
Are you the K, B or J in KBJ?
QuoteWritten by Eric B, Friday, June 08, 2007 at 12:25:51 AM
That Florida Baptist Convention Building is hideous looking.
The FL Baptist Bldg is IMO a fairly significant structure which was designed by Klutho, I believe. I like the brick facade and I think it has great potential for adaptive reuse. It would be nice as either offices or apartments in my view. I suppose you think the old Haydon Burns Library is good looking too. :'(
^^^Right on. As far as FL Bapt Bldg being hideous (Eric quote), black boarded-up windows, and a dirty facade will do that to a building. Like RG said, I think that it has great potential.
built immediately after the fire, 324 is a amazingly intact livery stable, aquired by tax arrears by the city in 1994. after the aquiestion(sic) the city dissappeared and its roof nearly collapsed. convenient locale for vagrants. city insisted its value of over $300,000, but the building needs 400 gs in renovation just to make code.
The Ambassador Hotel has a plaque showing campaign headquarters for the Claude Pepper-George Smathers Senate race in the early 50's.
If there is a use or reuse for old buildings, every attempt should be made to save them with facades intact. However, sometimes the economic life of a building has come to an end. For example, removing asbestos may be too costly etc.
In that case, the Historical society and the library should make an effort to photo document the building before it is demolished. The state archives has one of the Seminole busts from the Seminolle hotel , for example. Sometimes, you just have to move on. If you got to York England, and to the York Minster, you find, inside a current Church of England, below that the remains of a Saxon church, below that the remains of Viking occupation, and below that, the remains of Roman occupation.
It is nice to save buildings if you can, if it makes economic sense. For example, the downtown Morroco temple, the Elks club, and Snyder Church(which has the potential to make economic sense). If not, make a record, and let the city move on.
Somehow, the Rhodes building was missing from the discussion. Perhaps because it was torn down to make way for the new Library complex, so that land is being used once again for all of the right reasons. If the Seminole Club just sits and deteriorates, someone will knock it down and do something more with the location and the parking lot next to it. There is no reason to keep a building, just to keep it for historical sake, use it for a public or private purpose. Empty buildings should either be torn down or reused, Laura Trio, BBI building, Haverty's buildings all come to mind.
While, it looks like I landed a right hook to Pirenesi's jaw.
While if it makes him/her feel any better, I meant what I said and I'll gladly say it again...
What KBJ has done is an injustice to the city and reeks of short sightedness.
Anyway, over the past week, I've been in Charlotte, Charleston, WV, Columbus, OH, Detroit and Toronto. Its been amazing to see how these places have dealt with many of the same topics we're discussing right here. I'm loaded with photos, so the upcoming weeks should create a lot of debate and dialouge about the direction of our city, in regards to urbanism.
residential growth is bad in the minds of those who control downtown development; residents will only complain for services needed to sustain urban living. the parking lots are a economic disaster w/o the public projects mainly county couryhouse (still projected) and other commerical office space where both workers and customers vacate after 500pm, m-f--- the loss of 1st christ church to public parking---eviction of boomtown nightclub,ect this should put notice to all that those in power not the least of which is jedc, are not making these choices by stupidity, but to maintain personal corporate profit. which will be impaired by residental growth downtown, Believe it!
First Christian Church is no longer an endangered structure. It was put out of its misery:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1453-dsc_0012.JPG)
I passed by the site yesterday. One can't help but notice that the Porter House looks pretty suburban and lonely on that block. Any update on KBJ's plans? Will they pave a new parking lot or will they just park on the dirt?
I'd like to clear up some basic misconceptions about a building's historical significance or value as best I can. I'm very wordy, and I'm going to be unapologetic about it today! To summarize the following mindnumbing sludge: a building doesn't have to be unique or special to warrant preservation.
1) If you look at the national register, state registers, and local registers of historic sites, each have similar criteria for evaluation of importance that are more complex than simply "architectural" or "historical."
Jacksonville's Local Historic Designation Process (http://www.coj.net/Departments/Regulatory+Boards+and+Commissions/Historic+Preservation+Commission/Local+Historic+Designation+Process+.htm)
National Register Criteria for Evaluation (http://www.nps.gov/nr/publications/bulletins/nrb15/nrb15_2.htm)
And though preservation isn't just putting a site on a list, similar considerations should be used for evaluating the significance of any historic structure or site before action is to alter the site, be that nat'l/state/local register nomination, demolition, preservation/restoration/rehabilitation/reconstruction, and my biggest pet peeve: neglect! Economics should NOT be the only determining factor in every case. And by default, in our capitalist society, significance surely never is the only determining factor.
2) A building's significance is about connections and context, not merely popularity, general public knowledge/opinion/values at a given time (such as the present). Whether the general local public at a given time knows anything about a certain building or site is really separate from its connections to historical figures, events, trends, cultures, the contextual landscape, and the language of architecture, as well as its popularity and prominence in light of differing public values in the past and/or future.
For a broader, more philosophical view, the following are excerpts from a presentation by Marc Laenen, director of the Provincial Center of Cultural Heritage in Limburg, Belgium, in March, 2007 at the second conference of the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) International Scientific Committee on Theory and Philosophy of Conservation and Restoration, good grief this is a long name! in Florence, Italy. Keep in mind parts of this suffer from poor translation or transcription. Also keep in mind that while we say "historic" and "preservation," Europeans tend to use the words "heritage" and "conservation" with the same basic meanings. Go here to read the full article: http://www.fondazione-delbianco.org/seminari/progetti_prof/progview.asp?id=258
QuoteAuthor : Mr Marc Laenen
‘Considerations about criteria for heritage values continuity’
Most of the charters, recommendations and publications consider heritage values as the core for the understanding of the ‘significance of the place’ and as the basis for conservation concepts and practice. It is commonly accepted that conservation in living heritage areas is to be understood as the management of creative change of values within a process of continuity.
In several publications heritage values are identified and clustered into substantive qualities (historic, aesthetic, environmental, social, associative …. values) and use-values (monetary, functional … values). They are categories, results from human thought, defined within cultural contexts in time and space attributed to heritage resources and adopted or to be adopted by the members of the living communities. They are complex, interwoven with other values, present in the fabric of historic towns villages and landscapes and shape the identity, the specific character of the place that we intend to preserve. Methods to identify and assess heritage values leading to statements of significance and management plans exist. They are not confined to immovable heritage but apply as well for movable and intangible heritage. These values and their appraisal change over time We experienced in the last decades value shifts, expansions, new interpretations, re – valuation and ‘de-valuation’.
Immovable heritage appraisal was based on artistic or historic values in the XIXth century. Only in the seventies of the XXth centuries environmental, social and associative values where included. The notion ‘heritage’ has been expanded in time, thematic areas (vernacular architecture, historic towns and villages, cultural landscape, intangible heritage) and approaches such as integrated conservation..
Analyses of the fabric heritage sites reveals, the reasons why changes where introduced and the substantial social cultural and spatial consequences they caused. This way a lot of heritage was lost
In the province we develop Masterplans for unlocking heritage values for the local population and their visitors. In the fertile region of Haspengouw a first Actionplan has been drafted. Haspengouw is an open field landscape still reflecting the feudal social systems in the structure of landscape , the settlements, the fields, the castles and manor houses with their dependences .They still structure the landscape today. The main objective of the programme is to strengthen and ensure the continuity of the character of this cultural landscape trough the dynamic conservation or development and unlocking of its heritage values for the local population in the first, and to their visitors in the second place within regional development. By unlocking we understand offering a broad heritage experience in several fields of development: economy ( tourism ),cultural development , education, environmental care and planning ….
While dealing with this regional programme we where confronted with the question whether absolute universal objective and therefore ever lasting values exist or heritage valuing is in principle a relative assessment, relative in time and space, relative to other values and interests and is a social attribution of qualities to heritage resources that gives them a value for us today and here and maybe for others tomorrow. We understood that we had to focus and that value judgement had to be based on knowledge, supported by authoritative documentation by multidisciplinary research and that the experience of heritage values needed a strategy for communication. .
Using criteria in value judgment seemed helpful to identify relative importance and the power of heritage resources for unlocking policies but that it was exclusive for less sexy heritage issues. In addition to that the sum of positive points does not offer a comprehensive understanding of the significance of the site, which is much more complex due to interests sensitivities and values of different stake holders.
Therefore a prudent, respectful, sensitive attitude with as little as possible drastic and with reversible interventions on the resources seemed a more appropriate approach. It is based on the consciousness of our shared responsibility as temporary owners or ‘managers’ of heritage and on solidarity with mankind: future generations as well as our predecessors. All input is to be considered within global ethics.
Unfortunately we don’t have qualitative criteria yet to measure heritage conservation impact in sustainable human development which would guide us in our value judgements as our colleagues in environmental care have. This is in my view one of the priorities for research in heritage conservation for the next years.
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...the local population, which is our first target audience, experiences its heritage globally as a something holistic, not segmented into objects, buildings, customs and stories as some administrations in Europe still do. Hence the need for all heritage sectors to forge synergies in development programmes.
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...all heritage, including immaterial heritage, is situated somewhere. Cultural landscapes are heritage context and have become heritage themselves, subject to development. In this contextual approach, we meet our partners from environment, culture, economy, education and planning, who are working in the same cultural or heritage landscapes
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Again, the full article is here: http://www.fondazione-delbianco.org/seminari/progetti_prof/progview.asp?id=258
Basically, I think what many people recognize but don't express in so many words is that a building is not simply isolated in time and space and must not be ignored in the context of the heritage of the district or city as a whole, therefor its individual significance can be almost nil and people are nonetheless justified in calling for its preservation. People seem to understand that it's ethically questionable to demolish a whole district or town or city and replace it with something entirely new, even if the context - the heritage of the nation or globe - is barely scathed. This is because a district, town, or city has a heritage, a history, that is worth preserving in and of itself. Yet, when it comes to individual buildings in the context of the city, people are too quick to write off their destruction as no intangible loss at all! However, it is the very loss of numerous individual buildings that amount to the destruction or near destruction of a district, town, or city and thus the heritage of not just the individual buildings, but the context from which they are inseparable.
[/soapbox] ;D
i'm against demolishing buildings in general.
i used to live in a building that basically looked like a couple of blocks stacked together. it was a shoe factory, then a baby carriage factory. if there's anything insignificant historically, it's probably a factory. the most architecturally significant feature of the building itself (an entrance that wasn't brick and had an engraving i can't remember) was facing an alley. about 10-15 years ago, a wall fell of it onto the highway next to it, but instead of being demolished, they repaired it and eventually it was restored and turned into 100+ loft apartments with a wonderful downtown skyline (it was about 0.5 miles south of the rest of the skyline).
to me, it's not about being necessarily historically significant, it's about urban living and reusing the buildings that we have. luckily for my former city (st. louis), there was a very large amount of old buildings that were sitting empty and not being knocked down. many of them were very basic looking and not in good shape. the st. louis brewery (makes schlafly beer) started in a downtown building where the sun could apparently be seen shining through the roof from the basement in 1991, years before the loft-district boom that hit there.
this might sound like a bad idea to others, but i think that considering how downtown seems to be growing, it'd be better to save the buildings that aren't in good shape for later if they're not financially worth renovating at the moment. especially considering the fact that demolished buildings apparently end up as surface parking, or less. if newer buildings actually are built, the older buildings will look more and more out of place and i believe there will be a bigger push to demolish the old buildings.
btw, i find the old library extremely ugly, but i was relieved to hear that someone is going to renovate. as far as i know, st. louis still doesn't have a grocery store of any kind downtown. +5 pts jacksonville.
unfortunately, i do not have enough money to make these decisions. i also currently live at the beach and hate it. anyone have an opinion on the best apartment building to live in downtown? give me a private message.
Quote from: big ben on August 06, 2007, 09:15:40 PM
btw, i find the old library extremely ugly, but i was relieved to hear that someone is going to renovate. as far as i know, st. louis still doesn't have a grocery store of any kind downtown. +5 pts jacksonville.
Here's a cool one in Downtown St. Louis. Hopefully, whatever goes into 122 Ocean will be just as impressive.
City Grocers - St. LouisThis 2 story 6,500sf market includes a bakery and cafe serving breakfast & lunch
(http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6180/citygrocersstl4sd.jpg)
(http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6193/citygrocersstl21ql.jpg)
www.city-grocers.com (http://www.city-grocers.com)
hmmm....i never actually went there and for some reason everyone else gave me the impression that it was more of just a deli than an actual grocer. i guess these were people who were thinking more suburban. my mistake.
Regarding PS 4.....
It is my undestanding that develpment on the School could begin in as soon as two months. It is my hope that this, and particularly Lola Culver will be preserved as both have unique and inviting architecture.
Really ...All of these structures deserve a reuse...They are testiment to age and durability. A reuse for each of these locations should be feasible. Lets preserve what remains.
LOL, I love the building huggers. Should we save FS #4, sure, but where do you move it. The land is too valuable to leave a fire station NEXT TO THE RIVER!!!!! Endangered buildings, well, what about the gutted and empty old JEA building at Duval and Julia Streets? That dump has been empty for at least 5 years. The thing that is killing the Seminole Club is that besides City Hall, the Church with its 9 blocks, and JEA, there is not much in that area. Peyton and his courthouse have some to blame for that. :-\
Quote:
I suppose you think the old Haydon Burns Library is good looking too.
I dont want to get into a p.....g match with anyone here about historic structures. Seems everyone has their preference of Historical Significance. Personally I think the Haydon Burns Library is the UGLIEST structure in downtown.. but then there are probably alot that think the Annie Lytle School should go. Or the Park View Inn ( umm is that a historic structure yet? I hope not)
I AGREE that a building does not have to be striking or beautiful to have significance, and I think that if it is possible AT ALL to save and reuse an existing building such as Annie Lytle or the Lola Culvert School, they should be. Same with the Baptist convention ctr, or Haydon Burns. Lets save what history we have and not tear it down.. The Church certainly didnt NEED to be demolished, it was not in that bad of shape.
My opion about architectural fabric is , that we have so little of it from 50-100 years ago, that we should save anything we can possibly save , even if it costs more to do so. Cities Like Rome, Paris, London, take pride and have for centuries on preserving some of their oldest creations. Here in the United States, we live in a ..pretty much throw-away society. Its old so get rid of it, and I dont agree.
Regarding Annie Lytle....hopefully soon it will be removed from the endangered list. With regard to Fire Station 5 , theres little doubt it can be relocated somewhere in Brooklyn, seeing as most of Brooklyn has been demolished.
:)
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.
Quote from: orlandosgurl494 on March 13, 2008, 09:34:24 PM
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.
:-[ TIM....I don't know this person. I swear!
There are videos on the internet depicting A/L as Haunted. Theres no doubt that its rundown look and overgrowth all over it certainly lend to it a haunted look.
This in turn ATTRACTS to it, vandals (for decades) Vagrants (for decades) and its latest enemy, satanists and people going into it supposedly hearing children singing , or some stupid nonsense , which is in fact ALL there is to that. If you go on to youtube and search for haunted schools , you ll see at least 30 videos ,, two of which contain A/L.
There is some paranormal site that has made a knock off video , which is simply pictures taken of the exterior of the School ... with some nice haunted music and narration to go along with it.
When I see it with my own two eyes , I ll belive it.. but I dont and never did belive School Four is haunted.
It simply ran out its life as a School House , by an expressway being installed in its front yard. Likely had that not happened, it would still be in use. Its unfortunate setting with a flyover ramp, still overgrown, dilapidated , overgrowth and disrepair , fuels this incessant , stupid notion of the School being Haunted.
Quote from: Coolyfett on March 13, 2008, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: orlandosgurl494 on March 13, 2008, 09:34:24 PM
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.
:-[ TIM....I don't know this person. I swear!
Its all good Cooly. I cant stop people from going into the Building or saying its Haunted. I simply belive that it is NOT haunted. everyone is entitled to belive what they wish.
I am hoping to bring about a change to the look of the place. If the owner will allow it.
Seriously?? This is where we're going regarding what to do with buildings, paranormal delusions??? How about we try and turn this back around and discuss things on a higher plain, like through reason and rationality.
I don't care how ugly a building is, how old, or how long it's been sitting there. The reason one should not destroy a building is because it was put there in the first place. There was a plan, there was a purpose, and as long as there still is a purpose, we need to find ways to use what we have.
There is no good reason to knock down a building for the sake of putting another in its place. Buildings should not ever go into such a state of disrepair that they must be demolished, but rather it is up to us as the designers, builders and owners to take pride in our achievements and take care of what we've worked so hard to acheive. If we did that...if we had pride at all, we'd repurpose the buildings we have and keep them as a symbol of one's acheivement.
I see a pattern with vacant buildings ...almost always the windows get kicked out and the grafitting begins.
Then you have satanists and rituals of that sort going on in them.
I am keeping close tabs on PS # 4.... and Im starting to feel encouraged about its situation. I now belive it is about to undergo a revitilization.....long overdue for it. and hopefully end the 30 plus years of vandalism and destruction inflicted heavily on the interior of the Structure.
I guess in that situation , wheter it had been grafittied or not, it would have to be brought to modern codes interiorwise.. so either way , the grafitti is hopefully about to go bye bye forever.
Regarding the Lola Culver and John Gorrie Jr High School Buildings...
I spoke with a person today from DCSB who oversees the realestate aspects of the School System.... regarding these two Schools, plus Lackawana. Lackawana is decomissioned but is going to be used as a depository.. . The other two , Gorrie and Culver will be proposed to be reused as special schools ...on the order of what Lackawana was used for in its last years... If they are not used as Schools any further , then they will eventually go to Auction. I mentioned to the person at DCSB that Culver is listed as one of Jacksonville's most endangered buildings. He indicated that he didnt understand why that would be , because as far as he knew , Culver is NOT slated to be demolished or removed in anyway...in fact quite the opposite. And that he knew of , Culver was in no way unsafe to occupy...simply an outdated structure that the board could not afford to continue dumping tons of money into...
So maybe it will be in the future , that these two nice structures could see a reuse as lofts or something.. Hopefully they will not fall into disrepair as PS # 4 has. :(
I for one, am shocked that the city let the First Christian Church next to the architectural firm be demolished in exchange for yet another friggin surface parking lot. Sometimes I really lose faith in this place.
Does anyone know what the deal is with the CHart House on the Southbank? Although funky, it is a tremendous example of period architecture and the exact type of architecture this city might be inclined to rip down and regret later? Who owns the land underneath it?
Okay, I am a little confused? If we have buildings (especially city owned buildings) why are we not having non profits come in and provide services to the community? I know my organization is looking for space and would love to continue the buildings historic past.
While the jury is out on whether the Annie Lytle School is haunted or not, I can tell you that it is very nasty in the inside from homeless people living in there and doing their "business" in there.
Quote from: redhead25 on August 06, 2008, 03:13:57 PM
Okay, I am a little confused? If we have buildings (especially city owned buildings) why are we not having non profits come in and provide services to the community? I know my organization is looking for space and would love to continue the buildings historic past.
I for one would like to move services out of downtown. They are a homeless magnet. I do not wish to cut services we do not have enough but spread throughout the city disperse the homeless community. The large number that can commune together creates a sense of normalcy not the temporary attitude I would like to see with someone who has had a run of bad luck.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 31, 2008, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: redhead25 on August 06, 2008, 03:13:57 PM
Okay, I am a little confused? If we have buildings (especially city owned buildings) why are we not having non profits come in and provide services to the community? I know my organization is looking for space and would love to continue the buildings historic past.
I for one would like to move services out of downtown. They are a homeless magnet. I do not wish to cut services we do not have enough but spread throughout the city disperse the homeless community. The large number that can commune together creates a sense of normalcy not the temporary attitude I would like to see with someone who has had a run of bad luck.
you are spot on! having JSO and the jail downtown is a boneheaded thing. The new court should be shelved and a site outside, but close to the core should be developed and a "justice" campus, JSO, the jail and the courts can all be located in a contiguous area and still easily accessible and this would free up valuable core properties for wiser uses, a side benefit would be to get rid of the bail bond shops, nothing says urban decay more than a plethora of bail bond and check cashing shops. The bus station should be moved to or closer to the Amtrak station.
The social service providers needs to be relocated away from the central core also, these places attract (please do not take this the wrong way) a crowd downtown that doesn't need to be there, why not have the social service providers relocate closer to areas where these services are needed?
Another thing that should be relocated is the education building on the south-bank, surely they don't need prime riverfront property, they too should find a home near but not in the core.
regarding the homeless, I am not up on what outreach there is for them, but maybe a carrot and stick approach is necessary, they need to be removed but they also need help, a shelter and drug treatment, medical and mental health services should be offered, and if the homeless refuse the "help" then they need to be relocated.
Quote from: apvbguy on August 31, 2008, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 31, 2008, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: redhead25 on August 06, 2008, 03:13:57 PM
Okay, I am a little confused? If we have buildings (especially city owned buildings) why are we not having non profits come in and provide services to the community? I know my organization is looking for space and would love to continue the buildings historic past.
I for one would like to move services out of downtown. They are a homeless magnet. I do not wish to cut services we do not have enough but spread throughout the city disperse the homeless community. The large number that can commune together creates a sense of normalcy not the temporary attitude I would like to see with someone who has had a run of bad luck.
you are spot on! having JSO and the jail downtown is a boneheaded thing. The new court should be shelved and a site outside, but close to the core should be developed and a "justice" campus, JSO, the jail and the courts can all be located in a contiguous area and still easily accessible and this would free up valuable core properties for wiser uses, a side benefit would be to get rid of the bail bond shops, nothing says urban decay more than a plethora of bail bond and check cashing shops. The bus station should be moved to or closer to the Amtrak station.
The social service providers needs to be relocated away from the central core also, these places attract (please do not take this the wrong way) a crowd downtown that doesn't need to be there, why not have the social service providers relocate closer to areas where these services are needed?
Another thing that should be relocated is the education building on the south-bank, surely they don't need prime riverfront property, they too should find a home near but not in the core.
regarding the homeless, I am not up on what outreach there is for them, but maybe a carrot and stick approach is necessary, they need to be removed but they also need help, a shelter and drug treatment, medical and mental health services should be offered, and if the homeless refuse the "help" then they need to be relocated.
Taking the bums away from downtown?? Then who would I run off the chess tables?? I need a bum to play chess MAN!! If you get rid of all the BUMS then when I go downtown Ill feel like Im in the Twilight Zone!! Look Downtowns are full of nooks and crannies, where are the bums gonna sleep dude? In a suburban sidewalk? I think not. THEY DON"T NEED HELP!! THEY NEED CHANGE!!! Anything between 5 & 98 cents. Stop picking at the bums man!!!
Where the hell is StephanDare when we need him???!!!!! Argh!!!
Rumor has it that John Gorrie Jr. High has SOLD -
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2009/01/sold.html
The T-U is reporting today that the Weavers bought it, subject to School Board approval, and may use it for affordable housing for teachers and nurses. I think y'all got scooped. ;)
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 06, 2009, 03:18:30 PM
The T-U is reporting today that the Weavers bought it, subject to School Board approval, and may use it for affordable housing for teachers and nurses. I think y'all got scooped. ;)
"affordable" meaning HUD housing, it better not.
If its targeting nurses and teachers, its great news.
I think they mean "market rate" housing and definitely not HUD. This is property affordable to those working as teachers, nurses, policemen, etc. and is designed to make spaces for those people in otherwise expensive neighborhoods (although I think the need for this in Riverside is highly debatable). I own property in the area and will closely monitor the situation but I am almost positive it would not be HUD.
Personally, I would MUCH prefer an upscale apartment complex there. It has so much potential IMO. I am a little afraid that Mrs. Weaver (who is apparently the more liberal of the two) will use this to attempt to be a do gooder at the expense of the area. The only saving grace may be that the Weavers do actually live at the end of Stockton Street so they have a vested interest in making the neighborhood better. Note that I have no evidence that they intend any harm but it is a vague fear I have. Overall, the Weavers have been great for the City and are great citizens.
the new term for it is "workforce housing"....that way it doesn't have the stigma that affordable housing does
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 06, 2009, 07:36:59 PM
I think they mean "market rate" housing and definitely not HUD. This is property affordable to those working as teachers, nurses, policemen, etc. and is designed to make spaces for those people in otherwise expensive neighborhoods (although I think the need for this in Riverside is highly debatable). I own property in the area and will closely monitor the situation but I am almost positive it would not be HUD.
Personally, I would MUCH prefer an upscale apartment complex there. It has so much potential IMO. I am a little afraid that Mrs. Weaver (who is apparently the more liberal of the two) will use this to attempt to be a do gooder at the expense of the area. The only saving grace may be that the Weavers do actually live at the end of Stockton Street so they have a vested interest in making the neighborhood better. Note that I have no evidence that they intend any harm but it is a vague fear I have. Overall, the Weavers have been great for the City and are great citizens.
Yes, I own 2 properties less than 3 blocks from it, and lease a commercial space across the street, so it very much concerns me as well.
The sale is a go after last nights school board meeting
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on January 07, 2009, 09:52:05 AM
The sale is a go after last nights school board meeting
Interesting, last I heard there was a potential buyer willing to pay a million for it...and the city sells it for half that.
That potential buyer apparently did not submit a bid.
Well, if the Weavers are serious that this is housing for "teachers and nurses" then the subsidy wouldn't really matter, as these professionals aren't going to harm a neighborhood like Section 8 renters do.
However, I share Riversidegator's incredulity. I'm confused as to how a nurse or policeman would need a subsidy (including a "workforce" project) to afford an apartment in riverside. Maybe a teacher might? So hopefully this doesn't turn into a "dogooder" project that actually harms the neighborhood, like a lot of the downtown social services.
If you look at the explanation of workforce housing on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workforce_housing it really is not a "hand out" type program. It just provides housing at prices that would be affordable and stay affordable in relation to the area they are built in.
As long as it is built as true workforce housing, it should be beneficial to that area.
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 08, 2009, 10:35:08 AM
That potential buyer apparently did not submit a bid.
The potential buyer was told not to bid, it seems they were purposely left out of the bid process.
Quote from: Lucasjj on January 08, 2009, 11:32:51 AM
As long as it is built as true workforce housing, it should be beneficial to that area.
I absolutely agree. True workforce housing would enhance the neighborhood.
Although realistically even workforce is subsidized - it's just the developer (or the city with tax credits) absorbing the cost, not the federal government with vouchers. So it's still a type of subsidy. And I still do question why a nurse or policeman couldn't afford a market rate unit in Riverside? So it's just a confusing contradiction on the Weaver's part. That's all.
My point was that Riverside already has LOTS of cheap apartments which are affordable to anyone basically who has a job. I dont know why we need more and I especially dont know why such a prime location and property should be transformed into something less than its highest and best use. I am also very concerned that the Weavers have never been involved in rental real estate (to my knowledge) and that Mrs. Weaver has a penchant for do goodery. Frankly, affordable housing is needed elsewhere. Riverside should be aspiring for more. This could be such an amazing high end apartment complex but I fear it will be sacrificed on the altar of good intentions.
Quote from: JoeMerchant on January 08, 2009, 12:45:41 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 08, 2009, 10:35:08 AM
That potential buyer apparently did not submit a bid.
The potential buyer was told not to bid, it seems they were purposely left out of the bid process.
Any proof of this? None of the other auctions brought good bids either. It is a terrible time to sell real estate. Of course, the City has chosen to sell at the bottom of the market. ::)
QuoteThe old American Heritage Life building at the corner of Main and Forsyth streets was condemned by the City last Wednesday and is subject to demolition. According to the Property Appraiser’s Web site, the building is owned by 5 W. Forsyth St. Inc., which lists a P.O. box in Atlantic Beach as its address. In 2008, the building had an assessed value of $940,878.
From 6/30/2009: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52650&text=american%20heritage&type=thisexactphrase
Anyone know what this is leading up to?
Per the property appraiser, this is the approximately 20,000 square foot two-story white brick building facing Forsyth across Main Street from the former AHL tower (now 5 East) and is historic being built in 1916! Looks like another great and endangered building from Jax's history.
I have been in this building before and it was nicely renovated in the 1980's and maybe again since. It should be in decent shape even today. Is there no end to our destruction?! Will Jax step up and save this one. It's much larger than Lerner's was around the corner.
It will be criminal if this joins the scrap heap. There will be no hope ever for historic preservation in this City. HELP!!!!! [/color]
Link to Google Street View: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=main+and+forsyth,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.50801,78.837891&ie=UTF8&ll=30.327043,-81.658008&spn=0,359.997594&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=30.327045,-81.658018&panoid=dAZgxYK5CBzGfD3CCY2CaQ&cbp=12,32.83,,0,-2.02
Our attitude towards historic preservation is deplorable. I'm in Baltimore right now and you'll be amazed at what they still have standing. 75% of this city would have been leveled decades ago if COJ was in charge.
Outside of downtown, a good portion of Baltimore's older building stock looks like the rowhouses shown in this image. I have a hard time believing COJ would allow structures like this to remain standing for an extended period of time.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/588364202_Tttcx-M.jpg)
those buildings stjr mentioned are owned by our "dear" friend, chris hionedes, right lake? So ive been told.
Yes. He probably owns half of DT and Springfield. Chances are, if a building is vacant, its probably owned by him or one of his LLCs.
This building, along with another historic building next door, that was torn down for the now present ugly parking garage, and the marble bank/Laura Street Trio, were all owned at one time by Jack Uible's Jacksonville National Bank/Charter Mortgage/Alliance Holding and Mortgage companies. These companies were spun off to Uible by The Charter Company when he departed it and Charter Mortgage became Alliance Mortgage upon sale of his companies to Florida National Bank in the early 80's. It's now part of Everbank.
At its prime, JNB/Alliance had hundreds of employees and they lovingly renovated the Trio and these Forsyth-facing buildings to near Class A quality to house them all. Very nicely done. It's sad that in about 20 years they could go from the equivalent of multi-million dollar renovations to being tear downs/condemnations/derelict. If this can happen to buildings with this history, no building in Jax is safe from the wrecking ball!
This mindset needs to change .
The Florida Baptist Convention Building (218 W Church St) was featured on Actionnews. It still awaits redevelopment. Pretty crazy that the building actually has a tree growing inside of it; That's like some Detroit-esque type stuff there.
www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Downtown-eyesore-awaits-redevelopment/8uCNt42Z3UuTKfsLmOyArQ.cspx
Looking back at the 2007 article, it featured sixteen endangered places in Jax's core. Far as I know, only one is currently torn down, First Christian Church (correct me if I'm wrong). Here's the list.
1. Fire Station Number 5
2. Annie Lytle School
3. Grey Hotel at New Berlin
4. Lola Culver Elementary School
5. Old Brewster Hospital
6. US Post Office & Courthouse
7. Old Federal Reserve Bank Building
8. Florida Baptist Convention Building
9. Guaranty Trust & Savings Bank (Bostwick Building)
10. The Seminole Club
11. Haydon Burns Library
12. Friendship Fountain
13. Ambassador Hotel
14. Mount Mariah AME Church
15. Dance Warehouse
16. First Christian Church (demolished)
The Seminole Club was mentioned at the 4/24/14 Special meeting of the DIA. Just to throw out a positive.
Quote from: I-10east on April 24, 2014, 08:57:06 PM
The Florida Baptist Convention Building (218 W Church St) was featured on Actionnews. It still awaits redevelopment. Pretty crazy that the building actually has a tree growing inside of it; That's like some Detroit-esque type stuff there.
www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Downtown-eyesore-awaits-redevelopment/8uCNt42Z3UuTKfsLmOyArQ.cspx
Looking back at the 2007 article, it featured sixteen endangered places in Jax's core. Far as I know, only one is currently torn down, First Christian Church (correct me if I'm wrong). Here's the list.
1. Fire Station Number 5
2. Annie Lytle School
3. Grey Hotel at New Berlin
4. Lola Culver Elementary School
5. Old Brewster Hospital
6. US Post Office & Courthouse
7. Old Federal Reserve Bank Building
8. Florida Baptist Convention Building
9. Guaranty Trust & Savings Bank (Bostwick Building)
10. The Seminole Club
11. Haydon Burns Library
12. Friendship Fountain
13. Ambassador Hotel
14. Mount Mariah AME Church
15. Dance Warehouse
16. First Christian Church (demolished)
I think the Grey Hotel at New Berlin was torn down a couple of years ago.
^^^ Thanks Acme. The Grey Hotel was the main one that I was unsure about.
The Brewster Hospital is no longer on this list and is fully restored. :) It stands in what is left of the LaVilla neighborhood which abuts downtown.
Quote from: Noone on April 24, 2014, 09:18:18 PM
The Seminole Club was mentioned at the 4/24/14 Special meeting of the DIA. Just to throw out a positive.
Just out of curiosity do you know what was discussed about it?
Friendship Fountain has been restored, and the Haydon Burns Library has been purchased and is being rehabbed by the DuPont Foundation. There were plans to rehab the Ambassador Hotel and add a penthouse, but I don't know the current status.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on April 26, 2014, 08:38:04 AM
Friendship Fountain has been restored, and the Haydon Burns Library has been purchased and is being rehabbed by the DuPont Foundation. There were plans to rehab the Ambassador Hotel and add a penthouse, but I don't know the current status.
Abassador is actually one of the buildings I am looking at as well. It is up for sale now as part of a total block package. Last verified the 22nd and when I called the agent said it is still listed. All of that put together I am swaying to think that deal fell through after the fire inside.
it is quite interesting reading this article again, and looking at the comments. Based on recent developments, I actually feel a strange feeling about downtown....hope. ;D
You're right, 6,9-12 have all been restored and 7 is in the process of being bought/restored. Unfortunately that list is also missing some buildings like the trio and Barnett. Hopefully that all works out!
Quote from: I-10east on April 24, 2014, 08:57:06 PM
Looking back at the 2007 article, it featured sixteen endangered places in Jax's core. Far as I know, only one is currently torn down, First Christian Church (correct me if I'm wrong). Here's the list.
1. Fire Station Number 5
2. Annie Lytle School
3. Grey Hotel at New Berlin
4. Lola Culver Elementary School
5. Old Brewster Hospital
6. US Post Office & Courthouse
7. Old Federal Reserve Bank Building
8. Florida Baptist Convention Building
9. Guaranty Trust & Savings Bank (Bostwick Building)
10. The Seminole Club
11. Haydon Burns Library
12. Friendship Fountain
13. Ambassador Hotel
14. Mount Mariah AME Church
15. Dance Warehouse
16. First Christian Church (demolished)
3,5,14 and 16 have been demolished since 2007.