Metro Jacksonville

Quote
Scholars say ancient Fort Caroline nowhere near Jacksonville

Two researchers Friday morning told an international conference of scholars that they have solved the mystery of 450-year-old Fort Caroline, the doomed French fort that was wiped out by the Spanish and then vanished, seemingly forever.

Its location has been the most enduring puzzle in Jacksonville, where amateurs and professionals have searched for it, over more than a century, in vain.

They could keep looking for another century and still never find it, say scholars Fletcher Crowe and Anita Spring.

That's because the fort was not in Jacksonville. It wasn't even in Florida.

Instead, they claim, it is some 70 miles north, on the Altamaha River, south of Darien, Ga.

From Matt Soergel at Jacksonville.com

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-02-21/story/scholars-say-they-know-where-ancient-fort-caroline-and-its-nowhere-near#ixzz2tynEGtVj

Here's some more. In my opinion a bit too unequivocal considering nothing has been found yet.

Quote
Oldest fortified settlement ever found in North America

In an announcement likely to rewrite the book on early colonization of the New World, two researchers today said they have discovered the oldest fortified settlement ever found in North America. Speaking at an international conference on France at Florida State University, the pair announced that they have located Fort Caroline, a long-sought fort built by the French in 1564.

"This is the oldest fortified settlement in the present United States," said historian and Florida State University alumnus Fletcher Crowe. "This fort is older than St. Augustine, considered to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in America. It's older than the Lost Colony of Virginia by 21 years; older than the 1607 fort of Jamestown by 45 years; and predates the landing of the Pilgrims in Massachusetts in 1620 by 56 years."

Announcement of the discovery of Fort Caroline was made during "La Floride Française: Florida, France, and the Francophone World," a conference hosted by FSU's Winthrop-King Institute for Contemporary French and Francophone Studies and its Institute on Napoleon and the French Revolution. The conference commemorates the cultural relations between France and Florida since the 16th century.

Researchers have been searching for actual remains of Fort Caroline for more than 150 years but had not found the actual site until now, Crowe said. The fort was long thought to be located east of downtown Jacksonville, Fla., on the south bank of the St. Johns River. The Fort Caroline National Memorial is located just east of Jacksonville's Dames Point Bridge, which spans the river.

However, Crowe and his co-author, Anita Spring, a professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of Florida, say that the legendary fort is actually located on an island at the mouth of the Altamaha River, two miles southeast of the city of Darien, Ga. Darien is located near the Georgia coast between Brunswick and Savannah, approximately 70 miles from the Jacksonville site.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140221111218.htm

According to the Times-Union,

Quote

Their theory that Fort Caroline is on the Altamaha is not a new one. A writer named Richard Thornton has also made that claim in various postings on the internet.

This is the "Mayans in Georgia" guy we've discussed on Metro Jacksonville before:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14006.0.html

Here's a link from Thornton on Fort Caroline, be careful of popups:

http://www.examiner.com/article/building-this-famous-florida-attraction-caused-history-to-go-astray

If the excavations find remnants of the fort on Rhett's Isld, what then would happen to Ft. Caroline National Monument?

Quote from: Jumpinjack on February 21, 2014, 01:40:25 PM
If the excavations find remnants of the fort on Rhett's Isld, what then would happen to Ft. Caroline National Monument?

It becomes a putt-putt golf course.

Riverfront property on a bluff in Jacksonville? Ummm....a new gated housing development.

It's still owned by the National Parks Service, and it's likely either the city or the state would take it over if the NPS wanted to get rid of it.

Call it a kneejerk, but there are a number of things that would cause me to doubt this. UNF's Buzz Thunen mentioned one of the big ones in the FTU article:

Quote
...UNF archaeologist Robert "Buzz" Thunen, presented a paper to the same conference on Thursday, arguing that Fort Caroline was on the St. Johns — it just hasn't been found yet. Thunen and his UNF colleague Keith Ashley have been searching for years.

On Thursday afternoon, Thunen had heard just the broad outline of Spring and Crowe's findings. At that point, he was skeptical.

"I really have no way to judge it," he said. "I find it a little far-fetched if they're putting it as far north as the Altamaha, but I have to wait to really evaluate it. So we'll see."

There is one key fact of history that indeed suggests Fort Caroline was in Jacksonville: the bloody end of the French fort in 1565. That's when Spanish troops marched overland to the fort from their newly founded camp at St. Augustine, slogging through a hurricane for several days.

If the fort were indeed in Georgia, how could that march have been made in that time? How could the Spanish have crossed the St. Johns?

Crowe acknowledged those questions. "Anyone who makes (our) claim has to establish how the Spanish were able to march overland to the fort," he said.

Crowe and Spring say they believe they have an answer: The Spanish actually marched from a camp on the St. Marys River in Georgia, following Indian trails that led them to the fort on the Altamaha.

Once there, the slaughter began.

...

The articles don't seem to indicate the scholars checked the Spanish records to determine whether this suggestion matched up. Working from memory, it doesn't seem likely.

I agree Taca that it is a long way from being taken as gospel, but the potentially wrong translation, the maps, and Indian translations do plant a seed of doubt. Also, having read about the details of the expeditions of Lewis and Clark and Stanley, I don't think its inconceivable that the Spanish could have found a way to cross the St. Johns and march a longer distance in a short time period.

QuoteThere, he says, he found a poor translation from the French, a translation made more than 400 years ago. That led to a confusion between the words "above" and "below" the line of 30 degrees of latitude, which is roughly where Jacksonville is.

Crowe claims that bad translation became accepted as fact, and lived on and flourished for centuries.

"We're claiming that the whole myth that Fort Caroline is east of Jacksonville is based on poor translations," he said.

Crowe and Spring say they also reexamined ancient maps, some of which had labeled the Altamaha as the River May, which has long been thought to be the French name for the St. Johns.

Various geographical puzzles in the early writings of the French suddenly make sense when one looks at the maps knowing that Fort Caroline was on the Altamaha, Spring said.

And linguistic evidence, looking at Indian words described by the French, shows that the language the natives were speaking was from Georgia, not Florida, Spring added.

Looking at the mouth of the Altamaha, there are quite a few islands and places that it could have been located (if it was there). Going to be hard to find it.

Given the length of time and the way the river wanders a bit Fort Caroline is probably somwhere east of Mayport. I suspect it was washed away.

Some of those same type scholars were claiming that Paul Revere didn't ride and warn the town the British were comming.

The national park is more than the fort. It is the Timucan Preserve & Fort Caroline area.  It includes the Theodore Roosevelt area.

http://www.nps.gov/timu/index.htm

Quote from: thelakelander on February 21, 2014, 02:05:34 PM
Riverfront property on a bluff in Jacksonville? Ummm....a new gated housing development.

It would make a great location for the seaglass tower.

Another major problem is the Indian geography. The people who lived on the St. Johns were Mocama, a Timucuan group. The people in the Altamaha area were Guale, who spoke a different language (also called Guale). The science daily article mentions this:

Quote

One reason scholars claimed that Fort Caroline was located near Jacksonville is because, they believed, the local Indian tribes surrounding the fort spoke the Timucuan language, the Native American language of Northeast Florida.

"We proved that the Native Americans living near the fort spoke a language called Guale (pronounced "WAH-lay")," Spring said. "The Guale speakers lived near Darien, Ga. They did not live in Northeast Florida, where Jacksonville is."

However, in his account, Fort Caroline founder Rene Laudonniere calls Saturiwa, the paramount chief in the area where Fort Caroline stood, by the title of "Paracousi" (http://books.google.com/books?id=jqrxOjZya4AC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=paracousi+%22Three+Voyages%22&source=bl&ots=mkNfKtxXqB&sig=J1qpx5sGj4yrmijwrC8bXk4AnIk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iaoHU5KeDIXMkAeHhoGADA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=paracousi%20%22Three%20Voyages%22&f=false) or "Paracusi". This was a Timucua term (http://books.google.com/books?id=gLN7Y7XFFU8C&pg=PA151&dq=milanich+timucua+paracusi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P6sHU5TdDMzLkAf1xYCgCg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=milanich%20timucua%20paracusi&f=false) for a chief. Where would Laudonniere have gotten this word if not from a Timucua group? Even if the term was used in Guale, how could it be "proved" that it wasn't Timucua as the scholars claim?

Additionally, Saturiwa's chiefdom (which was called, confusingly enough, "Saturiwa") included a village and island named Allicamany (http://books.google.com/books?id=jqrxOjZya4AC&pg=PA89&dq=%22Three+Voyages%22+Allicamany&hl=en&sa=X&ei=drAHU-_oNoaPkAeG8YDQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Three%20Voyages%22%20Allicamany&f=false) or Alimacani. This can be firmly placed as Fort George Island, since years later the Spanish built a major mission to the Mocama, San Juan del Puerto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_del_Puerto,_Florida), at this village. For the scholars to be right, two different Indian groups speaking different languages must have both had an island and village called "Alimacani".

As one more example, Laudonniere is clear that the Saturiwa's enemies, the Outina (http://books.google.com/books?id=jqrxOjZya4AC&pg=PA76&dq=%22Three+Voyages%22+%22Olata+Ouae+Outina%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lLIHU7fkDovNkQf61YAo&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Three%20Voyages%22%20%22Olata%20Ouae%20Outina%22&f=false) or Utina, were located up river from them. This placement fits the archaeological evidence for the St. Johns River area (http://books.google.com/books?id=kpJXNqqceacC&pg=PA20&dq=The+Timucuan+Chiefdoms+of+Spanish+Florida+northernmost+of+these+extends&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e7QHU6z5O4SqkAe9qYHwAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Timucuan%20Chiefdoms%20of%20Spanish%20Florida%20northernmost%20of%20these%20extends&f=false). Even ignoring the Saturiwa chiefdom for a moment, the Utina, later known to the Spanish as the Agua Dulce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agua_Dulce_people), can be definitively placed along the St. Johns north of Lake George. So far I'm not seeing anything that would account for this discrepancy.

I'm going to contact Buzz Thunen here at UNF to hear his take on it.  Props to the scholars for presenting a well considered new theory about one of the great historical mysteries, but to me it sounds like it requires a lot of historical documents and archaeological evidence to be wrong, and wrong in the same ways, to be plausible.

Love it... and the plot thickens!

I found this article.

http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia (http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia)

Um, it is pretty inflammatory towards Jacksonville and accuses the local political scene in the 1930's of "cooking" history to get federal dollars during the depression and win votes for Roosevelt.  They accuse the local government once again in the late 60's of coercing funding for the site in return for votes for LBJ.

Same writer did a follow up article here.

http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline (http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline)

I might add that the Fort Caroline site in Jacksonville is a "National Memorial" which much different than a National Landmark". So some of the accusations made in the Examiner article weren't fully vetted.

So anyway....here it is.

William Bartram visited the actual site of Fort Caroline in Georgia

If the evidence was a snake, it would have bitten Florida and Georgia historians many times. On November 20, 2013, a Cherokee historian stumbled upon that snake asleep in a 250 year old book.

It is the greatest historic preservation scam ever in the United States. In the depth of the Great Depression during the 1930s, economic leaders in Jacksonville, Florida were searching for an attraction to draw tourists, headed to St. Augustine and Miami, off of US Highway 1 and into Jacksonville. They needed something that was nationally significant and more "red blooded American" than the Spanish town of St. Augustine. What would be better than the "long-lost site of Fort Caroline," the tragic attempt of French Protestants to establish a place of refuge in the New World?

Fort Caroline was constructed by approximately 250 French colonists in 1564. Most of the colonists were Protestant Huguenots, but it was a government financed project of King Charles of France. Between September 20 and 22, 1565 the majority of colonists were killed in battle or hung by a Spanish army. In 1566 Spanish engineers reconstructed the three sided burned-out ruins of Fort Caroline into a much stronger, four-sided Fort San Mateo. In 1568 a joint French-Native American army killed or hung its Spanish garrison.

The captain of Fort Caroline, Captain René de Laundonnière, stated that Fort Caroline was constructed on an island above the brackish water of tidal marshes, 12 miles upstream from the head of navigation for large sea-going vessels. During the 1730s, Darien, GA was established at the Altamaha River's head of navigation for large sailing ships. By then, the Spanish had been gone from the region for 45 years.

Without a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, Jacksonville's economic leaders and Florida's politicians came together to announce that Fort Caroline was located near Jacksonville. No French, Spanish or English document had ever placed Fort Caroline on the St. Johns River.

All European maps produced in the late 1500s and throughout the 1600s showed Fort Caroline to be a few miles inland on the west side of Georgia's Altamaha River. All French Colonial Era maps labeled the Altamaha River as the May River. This is the name that French Captain René de Laundonnière had given it.

The St. Johns River was not even accessible by ocean-going ships until the 1850s, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers dredged a channel through the shallow seven mile outlet of the St. Johns River. Jacksonville's original name was Waterford because humans and livestock were able to walk across the St. Johns River in the vicinity of where Fort Caroline National Monument is now located.

National politics came to bear on the fabrication of history. President Roosevelt needed the support of Florida's powerful senators and representatives to push through the New Deal. Word got out that powerful economic interests were behind this project. Not a single historian or archaeologist raised a public protest against this fabrication of history.

The City of Jacksonville purchased a tract of land that was admirably suited for tourism and called it Fort Caroline's site. There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River.

An economic development scheme changes the history books

In the seventy five years since the Fort Caroline deception began, taxpayers money has been repeatedly spent in fruitless archaeological efforts to find some evidence of a 16th century presence of French colonists along the St. Johns River. The National Park Service has expanded the theme of a failed French colony into a regional recreation and cultural attraction. Although the National Park Service makes it clear that the actual location of Fort Caroline is unknown, virtually all books, tourist brochures and web sites call the fake location of Fort Caroline, the actual location. Contemporary detractors of the National Park Service's expenditures in the Jacksonville Area are swatted aside with a response that "no credible eyewitness ever described an alternative location for Fort Caroline."

In 1951 the land purchased by Jacksonville as the site of Fort Caroline was given to the National Park Service to become a national park. After a decade of unsuccessful archaeological investigations, the Johnson Administration agreed to build a scaled-down replica of Fort Caroline in return for Florida Congressional support for the Civil Rights Act. Today, most visitors to Fort Caroline National Monument are completely unaware that they are visiting a fake historic site. Incredibly, in 1966 the Department of Interior put the fake Fort Caroline on the National Register of Historic Places even though nothing of historical note has been found at the site.

René de Laundonnière's book, "Trois Voyages," provides the most detailed and reliable 16th century descriptions of the indigenous peoples of the Lower Southeast. He launched at least six expeditions up the May (Altamaha) River to the Georgia Mountains in order to establish trading relationships with the Indians in the Coastal Plain, Piedmont and Mountains of Georgia. After the arrival of about 600 more colonists, he planned to establish a capital of New France roughly where Athens, GA is now located – at the headwaters of freight canoe travel on the Oconee River. Athens is immediately east of the Georgia Gold Belt.

During the late 20th century, Florida archaeologists and historians used the false location of Fort Caroline as a benchmark to fabricate a complex description of northeast Florida's past. It mixed archaeological facts and sometimes vague Spanish archives with a fabricated history of the French colonial efforts. This has created many misconceptions by the public. It has also put some very amusing passages in books written by the scions of Florida archaeology . . . when they try to equate the Georgia Mountains and Indians described by de Laudonniére to the geography and Native peoples of Florida.

The Natives that the Spanish called the Guale, never called themselves the Guale. The name came from a town named Wahale on St. Catherine's Island, GA. The word means "Southerners" in the Creek language. The Indians that the Spanish called the Timucua never called themselves the Timucua. That word was derived from the Tamacoa Province about 30 miles up the Altamaha River in Georgia. Phonetically, Tamacoa, would sound like Thamagua to English speakers. The Tamacoa spoke a language similar to the provinces in northeast Florida. The tribes at the mouth of the Altamaha spoke a South American language called Tupi. Nevertheless, the Spanish grouped all the provinces into one Spanish administrative province named Timucua.

Sometime in the 1600s the real Tamacoa moved away from the clutches of the Spanish Empire to a tributary of the Oconee River. They joined the Creek Indian Confederacy and continued to live in the same location a few miles north of present day Athens, GA until 1785 when their land was ceded to the United States. The county seat of Jackson County was developed on their village site. It was originally named Thamagua, but is now named Jefferson.

After retired United States Congressman, Charles C. Bennett, published an English translation of De Laudonniére's book, named "Three Voyages," it became the primary reference on Fort Caroline. However, there is a serious problem with his book. Wherever 16th century French and English versions of "Trois Voyages" stated "we paddled up the May River in a northwest direction to reach the Thamagua . . . or . . . to reach the Apalache in the mountains," Bennett deleted the words "in a northwest direction" and "in the mountains." You see, the St. Johns River flows southward and Florida does not have any mountains.

A Cherokee researcher stumbles upon Bartram's eyewitness account

Marilyn Rae is a Cherokee researcher in the People of One Fire. She is a direct descendant of the last hereditary principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, Pathkiller. After co-authoring two books with this writer on the Creek Indians of northern Georgia, Marilyn is deeply absorbed in the research to create the definitive book on the origins and early history of the Cherokee Indians.

On November 20th, 2013, Rae was browsing through "The Travels of William Bartram," an 18th century book, which describes the famous botanist's exploration of the southern British colonies between 1773 and 1776. Rae was astonished to come upon a passage that apparently described the ruins of Fort Caroline and Fort San Mateo . . . exactly where Captain René de Laundonnière said they were. Her discovery will turn the history books upside down and cause a great deal of consternation in the National Park Service. Rae is still astounded that no historian or archaeologist ever realized the significance of Bartram's words. She was looking for Cherokee history, not a political bombshell.

Here it is:

"The north channel, or entrance, glides by the heights of Darien, on the east bank, about ten miles above the bar, and, running from thence with several turnings, enters the ocean between Sapello and Wolf islands. The south channel, which is esteemed the largest and deepest, after its separation from the north, descends gently, winding by M`Intosh's and Broughton islands; and lastly, by the west coast of St. Simon's island, enters the ocean, through St. Simon's Sound, between the south end of the island of that name and the north end of Jekyl Island. On the west banks of the south channel, ten or twelve miles above its mouth, and nearly apposite Darien, are to be seen, the remains of an ancient fort, or fortification; it is now a regular tetragon terrace, about four feet high, with bastions at each angle; the area may contain about an acre of ground, but the fosse which surrounded it is nearly filled up. There are large Live Oaks, Pines, and other trees, growing upon it, and in the old fields adjoining. It is supposed to have been the work of the French or Spaniards. A large swamp lies betwixt it and the river, and a considerable creek runs close by the works, and enters the river through the swamp, a small distance above Broughton Island. "

America does, indeed, have a hidden history.

I wonder if the term "overland" is as a generic term so as to be differentiated from travel "by ships at sea"?   If so, the case for a fort across from Darien Ga. becomes more likely.

At Ft Caroline's visitors center, you can see a video that acknowledges the unknown location of the real fort, and the scaled down version of the replica fort.

Whether true or not (a plausible hunch, sure, but I have some considerable doubts), as a former archaeologist, I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here. It's a way to garner attention, fame, and perhaps grant money through sensationalism. I hope they're ripped apart by their peers both in the academy and in CRM for the timing of the announcement. (Maybe I should go to the AAA conference this year, after all.)

I would enjoy reading/seeing their entire presentation. I wonder if its available online somewhere.  From what I have read they have presented a thoroughly researched hypothesis with the only thing lacking now being an actual site survey.  I believe the general Jacksonville area for Fort Caroline has been written in stone for a very long time without a single artifact being found on site to support it. I found that hard to believe when I read it.

Screw the French (no insult intended) but where did Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, Place it?  The soldados and fuerzas navales of Spain were not so stupid as to log the miles and the position of this French fortress and miss it by several dozen rivers and a whole damn state!

"Menéndez took advantage of that providential "miracle," as the Spanish interpreted the violent wind, to march north overland and attack Ft. Caroline and its diminished garrison. Reaching the triangular wooden structure after two and a half days of march, Menéndez and his men slew 132 soldiers, sparing the women and youths not under arms." Um, 2.5 days without trails or roads in a freaking hurricane easily eliminates any other location. I say we turn these 'experts' loose in the Osceola National Forest and send them overland to the head of the Suwannee during a hurricane and see how far they get.

These bozo's should be dragged through the streets of Lisbon, Seville, Cartagena, Havana, Veracruz, Cartagena or better yet, ST. AUGUSTINE!

Esos locos viejos gringos de caballos blancos. El caballos también debe de ser gringo.

Quote from: JaxByDefault link=topic=20868.msg366211#msg366211
I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here.

I feel the same at how years ago without a single shred of archaeological evidence they began teaching that though it's exact location was unknown, it was somewhere in that vicinity of Jacksonville. Add that to the Cowford teachings and most of Jacksonville's history is still unknown and possibly being taught wrong.

Quote from: spuwho on February 22, 2014, 02:04:19 PM
I found this article.

http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia (http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia)

Um, it is pretty inflammatory towards Jacksonville and accuses the local political scene in the 1930's of "cooking" history to get federal dollars during the depression and win votes for Roosevelt.  They accuse the local government once again in the late 60's of coercing funding for the site in return for votes for LBJ.

Same writer did a follow up article here.

http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline (http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline)

I might add that the Fort Caroline site in Jacksonville is a "National Memorial" which much different than a National Landmark". So some of the accusations made in the Examiner article weren't fully vetted.

So anyway....here it is.

William Bartram visited the actual site of Fort Caroline in Georgia

If the evidence was a snake, it would have bitten Florida and Georgia historians many times. On November 20, 2013, a Cherokee historian stumbled upon that snake asleep in a 250 year old book.

It is the greatest historic preservation scam ever in the United States. In the depth of the Great Depression during the 1930s, economic leaders in Jacksonville, Florida were searching for an attraction to draw tourists, headed to St. Augustine and Miami, off of US Highway 1 and into Jacksonville. They needed something that was nationally significant and more "red blooded American" than the Spanish town of St. Augustine. What would be better than the "long-lost site of Fort Caroline," the tragic attempt of French Protestants to establish a place of refuge in the New World?

Fort Caroline was constructed by approximately 250 French colonists in 1564. Most of the colonists were Protestant Huguenots, but it was a government financed project of King Charles of France. Between September 20 and 22, 1565 the majority of colonists were killed in battle or hung by a Spanish army. In 1566 Spanish engineers reconstructed the three sided burned-out ruins of Fort Caroline into a much stronger, four-sided Fort San Mateo. In 1568 a joint French-Native American army killed or hung its Spanish garrison.

The captain of Fort Caroline, Captain René de Laundonnière, stated that Fort Caroline was constructed on an island above the brackish water of tidal marshes, 12 miles upstream from the head of navigation for large sea-going vessels. During the 1730s, Darien, GA was established at the Altamaha River's head of navigation for large sailing ships. By then, the Spanish had been gone from the region for 45 years.

Without a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, Jacksonville's economic leaders and Florida's politicians came together to announce that Fort Caroline was located near Jacksonville. No French, Spanish or English document had ever placed Fort Caroline on the St. Johns River.

All European maps produced in the late 1500s and throughout the 1600s showed Fort Caroline to be a few miles inland on the west side of Georgia's Altamaha River. All French Colonial Era maps labeled the Altamaha River as the May River. This is the name that French Captain René de Laundonnière had given it.

The St. Johns River was not even accessible by ocean-going ships until the 1850s, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers dredged a channel through the shallow seven mile outlet of the St. Johns River. Jacksonville's original name was Waterford because humans and livestock were able to walk across the St. Johns River in the vicinity of where Fort Caroline National Monument is now located.

National politics came to bear on the fabrication of history. President Roosevelt needed the support of Florida's powerful senators and representatives to push through the New Deal. Word got out that powerful economic interests were behind this project. Not a single historian or archaeologist raised a public protest against this fabrication of history.

The City of Jacksonville purchased a tract of land that was admirably suited for tourism and called it Fort Caroline's site. There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River.

An economic development scheme changes the history books

In the seventy five years since the Fort Caroline deception began, taxpayers money has been repeatedly spent in fruitless archaeological efforts to find some evidence of a 16th century presence of French colonists along the St. Johns River. The National Park Service has expanded the theme of a failed French colony into a regional recreation and cultural attraction. Although the National Park Service makes it clear that the actual location of Fort Caroline is unknown, virtually all books, tourist brochures and web sites call the fake location of Fort Caroline, the actual location. Contemporary detractors of the National Park Service's expenditures in the Jacksonville Area are swatted aside with a response that "no credible eyewitness ever described an alternative location for Fort Caroline."

In 1951 the land purchased by Jacksonville as the site of Fort Caroline was given to the National Park Service to become a national park. After a decade of unsuccessful archaeological investigations, the Johnson Administration agreed to build a scaled-down replica of Fort Caroline in return for Florida Congressional support for the Civil Rights Act. Today, most visitors to Fort Caroline National Monument are completely unaware that they are visiting a fake historic site. Incredibly, in 1966 the Department of Interior put the fake Fort Caroline on the National Register of Historic Places even though nothing of historical note has been found at the site.

René de Laundonnière's book, "Trois Voyages," provides the most detailed and reliable 16th century descriptions of the indigenous peoples of the Lower Southeast. He launched at least six expeditions up the May (Altamaha) River to the Georgia Mountains in order to establish trading relationships with the Indians in the Coastal Plain, Piedmont and Mountains of Georgia. After the arrival of about 600 more colonists, he planned to establish a capital of New France roughly where Athens, GA is now located – at the headwaters of freight canoe travel on the Oconee River. Athens is immediately east of the Georgia Gold Belt.

During the late 20th century, Florida archaeologists and historians used the false location of Fort Caroline as a benchmark to fabricate a complex description of northeast Florida's past. It mixed archaeological facts and sometimes vague Spanish archives with a fabricated history of the French colonial efforts. This has created many misconceptions by the public. It has also put some very amusing passages in books written by the scions of Florida archaeology . . . when they try to equate the Georgia Mountains and Indians described by de Laudonniére to the geography and Native peoples of Florida.

The Natives that the Spanish called the Guale, never called themselves the Guale. The name came from a town named Wahale on St. Catherine's Island, GA. The word means "Southerners" in the Creek language. The Indians that the Spanish called the Timucua never called themselves the Timucua. That word was derived from the Tamacoa Province about 30 miles up the Altamaha River in Georgia. Phonetically, Tamacoa, would sound like Thamagua to English speakers. The Tamacoa spoke a language similar to the provinces in northeast Florida. The tribes at the mouth of the Altamaha spoke a South American language called Tupi. Nevertheless, the Spanish grouped all the provinces into one Spanish administrative province named Timucua.

Sometime in the 1600s the real Tamacoa moved away from the clutches of the Spanish Empire to a tributary of the Oconee River. They joined the Creek Indian Confederacy and continued to live in the same location a few miles north of present day Athens, GA until 1785 when their land was ceded to the United States. The county seat of Jackson County was developed on their village site. It was originally named Thamagua, but is now named Jefferson.

After retired United States Congressman, Charles C. Bennett, published an English translation of De Laudonniére's book, named "Three Voyages," it became the primary reference on Fort Caroline. However, there is a serious problem with his book. Wherever 16th century French and English versions of "Trois Voyages" stated "we paddled up the May River in a northwest direction to reach the Thamagua . . . or . . . to reach the Apalache in the mountains," Bennett deleted the words "in a northwest direction" and "in the mountains." You see, the St. Johns River flows southward and Florida does not have any mountains.

A Cherokee researcher stumbles upon Bartram's eyewitness account

Marilyn Rae is a Cherokee researcher in the People of One Fire. She is a direct descendant of the last hereditary principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, Pathkiller. After co-authoring two books with this writer on the Creek Indians of northern Georgia, Marilyn is deeply absorbed in the research to create the definitive book on the origins and early history of the Cherokee Indians.

On November 20th, 2013, Rae was browsing through "The Travels of William Bartram," an 18th century book, which describes the famous botanist's exploration of the southern British colonies between 1773 and 1776. Rae was astonished to come upon a passage that apparently described the ruins of Fort Caroline and Fort San Mateo . . . exactly where Captain René de Laundonnière said they were. Her discovery will turn the history books upside down and cause a great deal of consternation in the National Park Service. Rae is still astounded that no historian or archaeologist ever realized the significance of Bartram's words. She was looking for Cherokee history, not a political bombshell.

Here it is:

"The north channel, or entrance, glides by the heights of Darien, on the east bank, about ten miles above the bar, and, running from thence with several turnings, enters the ocean between Sapello and Wolf islands. The south channel, which is esteemed the largest and deepest, after its separation from the north, descends gently, winding by M`Intosh's and Broughton islands; and lastly, by the west coast of St. Simon's island, enters the ocean, through St. Simon's Sound, between the south end of the island of that name and the north end of Jekyl Island. On the west banks of the south channel, ten or twelve miles above its mouth, and nearly apposite Darien, are to be seen, the remains of an ancient fort, or fortification; it is now a regular tetragon terrace, about four feet high, with bastions at each angle; the area may contain about an acre of ground, but the fosse which surrounded it is nearly filled up. There are large Live Oaks, Pines, and other trees, growing upon it, and in the old fields adjoining. It is supposed to have been the work of the French or Spaniards. A large swamp lies betwixt it and the river, and a considerable creek runs close by the works, and enters the river through the swamp, a small distance above Broughton Island. "

America does, indeed, have a hidden history.

This is the guy who claimed mounds in Georgia were actually 5-sided Mayan pyramids in Georgia, even though the Mayans aren't known for building 5-sided pyramids, and there are plenty of mounds built by natives throughout the Southeastern US. Fittingly, his Fort Caroline theory relies on there being a conspiracy to cover up the "truth" only he knows. Fletcher Crowe and Anita Spring's hypothesis puts Fort Caroline in a similar place, but it shouldn't be compared to Thornton. Even just from what's in the press releases they're much bigger on the evidence, even though I have very serious doubts they're right.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on February 23, 2014, 06:31:12 PM
Whether true or not (a plausible hunch, sure, but I have some considerable doubts), as a former archaeologist, I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here. It's a way to garner attention, fame, and perhaps grant money through sensationalism. I hope they're ripped apart by their peers both in the academy and in CRM for the timing of the announcement. (Maybe I should go to the AAA conference this year, after all.)

Yeah, that's definitely odd, especially as they're talking like they've already found the thing before they've found a piece of evidence. It's only a matter of time before other scholars start pointing out the problems with the location, including the ones we've mentioned here.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Screw the French (no insult intended) but where did Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, Place it?  The soldados and fuerzas navales of Spain were not so stupid as to log the miles and the position of this French fortress and miss it by several dozen rivers and a whole damn state!

"Menéndez took advantage of that providential "miracle," as the Spanish interpreted the violent wind, to march north overland and attack Ft. Caroline and its diminished garrison. Reaching the triangular wooden structure after two and a half days of march, Menéndez and his men slew 132 soldiers, sparing the women and youths not under arms." Um, 2.5 days without trails or roads in a freaking hurricane easily eliminates any other location. I say we turn these 'experts' loose in the Osceola National Forest and send them overland to the head of the Suwannee during a hurricane and see how far they get.

These bozo's should be dragged through the streets of Lisbon, Seville, Cartagena, Havana, Veracruz, Cartagena or better yet, ST. AUGUSTINE!

Esos locos viejos gringos de caballos blancos. El caballos también debe de ser gringo.

Haha, preach it, Ock! The news stories haven't given any indication they've accounted for the Spanish records OR the native geography. Unless their presentation has more in that regard, they've got some serious splainin to do.

Quote from: JayBird on February 24, 2014, 09:12:22 AM

Quote from: JaxByDefault link=topic=20868.msg366211#msg366211
I'm somewhere between annoyed and appalled at these researchers for holding a press conference on this before gathering a single sherd of archaeological evidence. There's an evidentiary burden to be met in science that has not been met here.

I feel the same at how years ago without a single shred of archaeological evidence they began teaching that though it's exact location was unknown, it was somewhere in that vicinity of Jacksonville. Add that to the Cowford teachings and most of Jacksonville's history is still unknown and possibly being taught wrong.

There's plenty of archaeological evidence for native settlement in this area. In fact, there was a cluster of settlements on the St. Johns River from east of Downtown Jax to the ocean, and another further upriver between about Palatka and Lake George. The French sources describe the Saturiwa chiefdom as being located at the mouth of the "River of May" and the Outina as being located up the same river. Plus there's extensive documentary evidence that points to the St. Johns. Any alternative theory is going to have to account for that.

As far as archaeological evidence goes, absence of evidence isn't always evidence of absence. Before Fort Caroline the French built an outpost called Charlesfort in South Carolina. Later, the Spanish built a settlement named Santa Elena on the same site, and it was the capital of Spanish Florida from 1566 to 1587. Though these were hugely important settlements and the general locations were known, archaeological evidence only turned up in the 20th century, and Charlesfort wasn't located until 1996 (http://archive.archaeology.org/9609/newsbriefs/charlesfort.html).

In the case of Fort Caroline, there are still many sites on the St. Johns that haven't been searched because they're on private property, and financing and resources also limit how much time can be spent out there searching. Not nearly enough has been done to rule out the St. Johns - let alone to make somewhere as far away as the Altamaha a sure thing.

I heard back from Buzz Thunen, the UNF anthropologist who also presented at this conference. He and his colleague Keith Ashley have been spearheading the research on the St. Johns. He doesn't find Crowe and Spring's theory very convincing in light of the French and Spanish documentary evidence, and he and his colleagues will be putting together a response to elaborate on their reservations. He confirmed that they're still looking here on the St. Johns but are limited right now by funding and resources. He did sound hopeful the publicity this has gotten will create some interest in continuing the project.

A response is great, but we all know how much media attention is garnered by a well-reasoned response with adequate documentation and peer review. It would be great if all this did generate some funding for always-thinning field research budgets.

Well my friends, De Soto landed near Tampa and marched 400 miles to the area of Tallahassee burning about 40 days, a paltry 10 miles per day. Add one hurricane or severe NorEaster and Menendez pulled off a miracle getting from St. Augustine to Fort Caroline (about 30 miles) in just a couple of days.

The ONLY remotely possible error may lay in the Spanish Name for Fort Caroline being San Mateo (sound familiar?) but then where was the high promontory that Ribault set his column on? There was a large indian mound under the south approach to the Acosta Bridge (Like Fort Picolata we  these shell and tabby places made great highways in the 1920's). Otherwise your stuck with Empire Point, Yellow Bluff and St. Johns Bluff. If this were really for 'tourism' it would have made much more sense to do this at the downtown site... but there are so many questions, such as where is/was the marsh where the Spanish camped? Philips? Spring Park? Pottsburg? Some more attention by the elite diggers of history from our various universities may be in order, watch out Aetna and River City Brewing... here we come! LOL.

OMG! Tacachale did you catch this one? ROFLMAO!

Quote...There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River...

Historians have no recorded date for the original settlement of Mayport Village.  The suggested dates range from 1562 when the French first settled to 1828 when the area really began to grow.  Early settlers of Mayport came from France, Portugal and the island of Minorca.  These people were fishermen and they thrived due to the close proximity of the continental shelf and large quantities of fish. 

Fishing has been the major economic base for the Village, but in the early days Mayport also supported itself through the lumber industry. Mayport Mills was the name of the fishing village until the end of the Civil War.  Mayport was also a well known resort town during the 1800s, gaining a bold reputation with its hotels, prize fighters and taverns.  Tourists from Jacksonville would cruise down the St. Johns River for a scenic ride along the Mayport coast.  Boats would then dock and the passengers would dine or stay overnight. 

The first Union occupation in Jacksonville, Florida began on March 12, 1862 and ended 1864.  The first successful battle of the Union was when the Union naval fleet captured Fernandina to the north and St. Augustine to the south and which allowed the Union to establish a naval base at Mayport Mills.  As a result, naval ships became very active with the freedom of slaves, freedmen and Union supporters Mayport Mills became a temporary refugee settlement.

^HAHAHA, every part of that is hilarious. "Jacksonville" buying land outside of Jacksonville and then insisting the Navy give it a particular name, which was made up despite being in use for decades. That kind of thing seems pretty typical of the author's arguments, I'm afraid.

Chuck Meide, archaeologist for the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Project in St. Augustine, has issued a statement skeptical of Crowe and Anita Spring's theory. He's critical largely because of the distance from St. Augustine.

http://www.blogstaugustinelighthouse.org/blog/in_the_news/lamp_disputes_new_fort_carolin.php

During the conference he pointed out to Crowe and Spring that the Spanish were able to make it from St. Augustine to Fort Caroline in 2 days during a hurricane. Crowe responded that they believe the original St. Augustine site was actually on the St. Marys River in Georgia! The theory requires more and more leaps the closer one looks at it.

St. Augustine was in fact moved twice, with the original site located at an Indian village called Seloy. Meide points out that there's no evidence it was ever located on the St. Marys, 70 miles away, but considerable evidence it was located at the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park, near the modern city.

Meide notes that UNF's Buzz Thunen and John de Bry (http://www.historicalarchaeology.org/about.html), paleographer at the Center for Historical Archaeology, pointed out weaknesses in the theory during the conference. It didn't stop the news from getting on board with them, though.

So they kept moving St. Augustine?! Now THAT is funny. Guess those coquina blocks the Spanish dug up floated? This is really getting silly. "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."

^Well, it was moved, but always within the same vicinity. The original, temporary fort was built at the Timucua village of Seloy in 1565. Archaeological discoveries place this at the Fountain of Youth State Park. In April 1566, the fort was burned and the Spanish began making plans for a more permanent fort across the harbor on Anastasia Island. In 1572, the Spanish moved St. Augustine to its present location on the mainland.

However, there's no evidence that the original Seloy site was on the St. Marys River, and that it was then moved 70 miles south to the current location. That's a pretty big hole. In fact, it's even more dubious considering that the Spanish had their sights set on expanding north to South Carolina, to Santa Elena on Parris Island.

Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2014, 10:15:25 AM

Quote from: spuwho on February 22, 2014, 02:04:19 PM
I found this article.

http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia (http://www.examiner.com/article/william-bartram-visited-the-actual-site-of-fort-caroline-georgia)

Um, it is pretty inflammatory towards Jacksonville and accuses the local political scene in the 1930's of "cooking" history to get federal dollars during the depression and win votes for Roosevelt.  They accuse the local government once again in the late 60's of coercing funding for the site in return for votes for LBJ.

Same writer did a follow up article here.

http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline (http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-highjacks-discovery-of-fort-caroline)

I might add that the Fort Caroline site in Jacksonville is a "National Memorial" which much different than a National Landmark". So some of the accusations made in the Examiner article weren't fully vetted.

So anyway....here it is.

William Bartram visited the actual site of Fort Caroline in Georgia

If the evidence was a snake, it would have bitten Florida and Georgia historians many times. On November 20, 2013, a Cherokee historian stumbled upon that snake asleep in a 250 year old book.

It is the greatest historic preservation scam ever in the United States. In the depth of the Great Depression during the 1930s, economic leaders in Jacksonville, Florida were searching for an attraction to draw tourists, headed to St. Augustine and Miami, off of US Highway 1 and into Jacksonville. They needed something that was nationally significant and more "red blooded American" than the Spanish town of St. Augustine. What would be better than the "long-lost site of Fort Caroline," the tragic attempt of French Protestants to establish a place of refuge in the New World?

Fort Caroline was constructed by approximately 250 French colonists in 1564. Most of the colonists were Protestant Huguenots, but it was a government financed project of King Charles of France. Between September 20 and 22, 1565 the majority of colonists were killed in battle or hung by a Spanish army. In 1566 Spanish engineers reconstructed the three sided burned-out ruins of Fort Caroline into a much stronger, four-sided Fort San Mateo. In 1568 a joint French-Native American army killed or hung its Spanish garrison.

The captain of Fort Caroline, Captain René de Laundonnière, stated that Fort Caroline was constructed on an island above the brackish water of tidal marshes, 12 miles upstream from the head of navigation for large sea-going vessels. During the 1730s, Darien, GA was established at the Altamaha River's head of navigation for large sailing ships. By then, the Spanish had been gone from the region for 45 years.

Without a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, Jacksonville's economic leaders and Florida's politicians came together to announce that Fort Caroline was located near Jacksonville. No French, Spanish or English document had ever placed Fort Caroline on the St. Johns River.

All European maps produced in the late 1500s and throughout the 1600s showed Fort Caroline to be a few miles inland on the west side of Georgia's Altamaha River. All French Colonial Era maps labeled the Altamaha River as the May River. This is the name that French Captain René de Laundonnière had given it.

The St. Johns River was not even accessible by ocean-going ships until the 1850s, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers dredged a channel through the shallow seven mile outlet of the St. Johns River. Jacksonville's original name was Waterford because humans and livestock were able to walk across the St. Johns River in the vicinity of where Fort Caroline National Monument is now located.

National politics came to bear on the fabrication of history. President Roosevelt needed the support of Florida's powerful senators and representatives to push through the New Deal. Word got out that powerful economic interests were behind this project. Not a single historian or archaeologist raised a public protest against this fabrication of history.

The City of Jacksonville purchased a tract of land that was admirably suited for tourism and called it Fort Caroline's site. There is absolutely nothing about this location that matches De Laundonnière's description, except that it is on the South Atlantic Coast. Jacksonville then purchased a massive tract land at the mouth of the St. Johns and gave it to the United States government for a U. S. Navy base. The base was named Mayport in order to provide "proof" that the St. Johns River was the real May River.

An economic development scheme changes the history books

In the seventy five years since the Fort Caroline deception began, taxpayers money has been repeatedly spent in fruitless archaeological efforts to find some evidence of a 16th century presence of French colonists along the St. Johns River. The National Park Service has expanded the theme of a failed French colony into a regional recreation and cultural attraction. Although the National Park Service makes it clear that the actual location of Fort Caroline is unknown, virtually all books, tourist brochures and web sites call the fake location of Fort Caroline, the actual location. Contemporary detractors of the National Park Service's expenditures in the Jacksonville Area are swatted aside with a response that "no credible eyewitness ever described an alternative location for Fort Caroline."

In 1951 the land purchased by Jacksonville as the site of Fort Caroline was given to the National Park Service to become a national park. After a decade of unsuccessful archaeological investigations, the Johnson Administration agreed to build a scaled-down replica of Fort Caroline in return for Florida Congressional support for the Civil Rights Act. Today, most visitors to Fort Caroline National Monument are completely unaware that they are visiting a fake historic site. Incredibly, in 1966 the Department of Interior put the fake Fort Caroline on the National Register of Historic Places even though nothing of historical note has been found at the site.

René de Laundonnière's book, "Trois Voyages," provides the most detailed and reliable 16th century descriptions of the indigenous peoples of the Lower Southeast. He launched at least six expeditions up the May (Altamaha) River to the Georgia Mountains in order to establish trading relationships with the Indians in the Coastal Plain, Piedmont and Mountains of Georgia. After the arrival of about 600 more colonists, he planned to establish a capital of New France roughly where Athens, GA is now located – at the headwaters of freight canoe travel on the Oconee River. Athens is immediately east of the Georgia Gold Belt.

During the late 20th century, Florida archaeologists and historians used the false location of Fort Caroline as a benchmark to fabricate a complex description of northeast Florida's past. It mixed archaeological facts and sometimes vague Spanish archives with a fabricated history of the French colonial efforts. This has created many misconceptions by the public. It has also put some very amusing passages in books written by the scions of Florida archaeology . . . when they try to equate the Georgia Mountains and Indians described by de Laudonniére to the geography and Native peoples of Florida.

The Natives that the Spanish called the Guale, never called themselves the Guale. The name came from a town named Wahale on St. Catherine's Island, GA. The word means "Southerners" in the Creek language. The Indians that the Spanish called the Timucua never called themselves the Timucua. That word was derived from the Tamacoa Province about 30 miles up the Altamaha River in Georgia. Phonetically, Tamacoa, would sound like Thamagua to English speakers. The Tamacoa spoke a language similar to the provinces in northeast Florida. The tribes at the mouth of the Altamaha spoke a South American language called Tupi. Nevertheless, the Spanish grouped all the provinces into one Spanish administrative province named Timucua.

Sometime in the 1600s the real Tamacoa moved away from the clutches of the Spanish Empire to a tributary of the Oconee River. They joined the Creek Indian Confederacy and continued to live in the same location a few miles north of present day Athens, GA until 1785 when their land was ceded to the United States. The county seat of Jackson County was developed on their village site. It was originally named Thamagua, but is now named Jefferson.

After retired United States Congressman, Charles C. Bennett, published an English translation of De Laudonniére's book, named "Three Voyages," it became the primary reference on Fort Caroline. However, there is a serious problem with his book. Wherever 16th century French and English versions of "Trois Voyages" stated "we paddled up the May River in a northwest direction to reach the Thamagua . . . or . . . to reach the Apalache in the mountains," Bennett deleted the words "in a northwest direction" and "in the mountains." You see, the St. Johns River flows southward and Florida does not have any mountains.

A Cherokee researcher stumbles upon Bartram's eyewitness account

Marilyn Rae is a Cherokee researcher in the People of One Fire. She is a direct descendant of the last hereditary principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, Pathkiller. After co-authoring two books with this writer on the Creek Indians of northern Georgia, Marilyn is deeply absorbed in the research to create the definitive book on the origins and early history of the Cherokee Indians.

On November 20th, 2013, Rae was browsing through "The Travels of William Bartram," an 18th century book, which describes the famous botanist's exploration of the southern British colonies between 1773 and 1776. Rae was astonished to come upon a passage that apparently described the ruins of Fort Caroline and Fort San Mateo . . . exactly where Captain René de Laundonnière said they were. Her discovery will turn the history books upside down and cause a great deal of consternation in the National Park Service. Rae is still astounded that no historian or archaeologist ever realized the significance of Bartram's words. She was looking for Cherokee history, not a political bombshell.

Here it is:

"The north channel, or entrance, glides by the heights of Darien, on the east bank, about ten miles above the bar, and, running from thence with several turnings, enters the ocean between Sapello and Wolf islands. The south channel, which is esteemed the largest and deepest, after its separation from the north, descends gently, winding by M`Intosh's and Broughton islands; and lastly, by the west coast of St. Simon's island, enters the ocean, through St. Simon's Sound, between the south end of the island of that name and the north end of Jekyl Island. On the west banks of the south channel, ten or twelve miles above its mouth, and nearly apposite Darien, are to be seen, the remains of an ancient fort, or fortification; it is now a regular tetragon terrace, about four feet high, with bastions at each angle; the area may contain about an acre of ground, but the fosse which surrounded it is nearly filled up. There are large Live Oaks, Pines, and other trees, growing upon it, and in the old fields adjoining. It is supposed to have been the work of the French or Spaniards. A large swamp lies betwixt it and the river, and a considerable creek runs close by the works, and enters the river through the swamp, a small distance above Broughton Island. "

America does, indeed, have a hidden history.

This is the guy who claimed mounds in Georgia were actually 5-sided Mayan pyramids in Georgia, even though the Mayans aren't known for building 5-sided pyramids, and there are plenty of mounds built by natives throughout the Southeastern US. Fittingly, his Fort Caroline theory relies on there being a conspiracy to cover up the "truth" only he knows. Fletcher Crowe and Anita Spring's hypothesis puts Fort Caroline in a similar place, but it shouldn't be compared to Thornton. Even just from what's in the press releases they're much bigger on the evidence, even though I have very serious doubts they're right.

come on its a 5 sided pyramid and it was on the internet so how could it not possibly not be true.  But these "researchers"  do have a habit of making huge pronouncement before any peer review dont they

If memory serves me right (and perhaps Tacachale knows) there were some Myan or Myan like small jewelry trinkets found in SW Florida some years ago, Ocala? Tampa? Ft. Myers? But even if this is true all it proves is that the Myans could paddle a mean canoe! To leap from things like this into the Myan's built Atlanta, or the French landed in Georgia is simply reckless. Perhaps we should launch an investigation on why the St. Johns River flows north... just to see if there is any truth to the old adage that is because Georgia SUCKS.

^That sounds like the Miami Circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Circle). When it was discovered back in the 90s one of the theories were that it was built by Maya or other Central Americans, as it had a somewhat similar layout, and "Maya-like" objects were found. The local natives, the Tequesta, weren't known to have created such elaborate structures, so of course everyone's mind went toward the most famous pre-Columbian architects.

It turned out to be just another case of underestimating Native Americans - the area was full of Tequesta artifacts, and other similar sites have been found. At this point the consensus is it's a native Tequesta site. Thanks to wide-ranging trade routes there were objects that originated far away from South Florida, like axes from the Appalachians, but not quite as far as Mexico so far as I know.

It wouldn't surprise me if we did find some artifacts from Central America (or further) in Florida at some point. Maize, for instance, comes from there. But it wouldn't mean that every artifact came from Central America. Like you say, it just means some great travelers were involved, not that the locals were so incapable of creating impressive monuments that foreigners had to come in to do it for them.

Don't mean to stray too far from the Ft. Caroline topic but you are right about the complexity of the native American cultures which is little known by most people. We have been visiting the prehistoric mounds in Georgia from the Woodland period. These cultures were very sophisticated and great travelers throughout the southeast and north into Wisconsin.


(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/dellwooddaisy/Kolomoki%20Mounds/41c76dcf-3d59-4ece-9d26-43bf12513d19.jpg)
Temple area which may have been village
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/dellwooddaisy/Kolomoki%20Mounds/edb597ad-d04f-426d-888c-063b374730b9.jpg)
Ceremonial mound at 57 feet high
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/dellwooddaisy/Kolomoki%20Mounds/9524b3fb-6747-4ef6-99c7-75e47862d60e.jpg)

the Examiner article is almost as bad as the researchers claim itself.  Both the oral and written historical record of Ft. Caroline in Jacksonville predates the article.

Further, the Bartram article mentions an abandoned Spanish or French fort on a river in Georgia.  Seriously?  there were probably a hundred of these by the mid 1700s.

Awesome pics, Jumpinjack.

^Thanks, Tacachale. Kolomoki Mounds west of Albany, GA. Definitely worth a visit.

There used to be a large collection of Timucuan mounds around the Trout, Arlington and St Johns. The last known ones recorded were near  University and Cesery. Historical reports showed most of them were leveled or plowed under by homesteaders. Reports of finding bones and other artifacts were in some of the accounts.

I think Lakelander covered it in one of his neighborhood stories.

Exactly Tacachale, I think the article I read suggested that they had found some jewelery that 'seemed' to be of Myan origin.' Immediately I flashed to the great 101 day voyage of the Kon-Tiki  which proved the Humbolt Current in the Pacific capable of taking the giant raft from Callao naval yard in Peru, 4300 miles (8000 km) until the raft was washed up on the Raroia reef in Polynesia. Who's to say the Gulf Stream was any less of a trade inducer? You can ride in in a glorified bath tub from Cartagena to the Straits of Florida effortlessly.

Other evidence for this is found in in Bartolome de Las Casas' abstract of the log of Crstóbal Colón (Columbus) where they found a block of wax on the island of Cuba. At the time the European honeybee had not been introduced in the America's and the ONLY wax producing variety was a sting-less bee found in the Mayan Empire. So were the Mayan Seafarers? YOU BET!

In the log of Fernando Colón, Cristóbal Colón's son:

Quote"Having come to the island of Guanaja, the Admiral sent ashore his brother Bartholomew, with two boats. They encountered people who resembled those of the other islands, but had narrower foreheads. They also saw many pine trees and pieces of earth called cálcide which the Indians use to cast copper; some of the sailors thought it was gold....by good fortune there arrived at that time a canoe long as a galley and eight feet wide, made of a single tree trunk like the other Indian canoes; it was freighted with merchandise from the western regions around New Spain. Amidships it had a palm-leaf awning like that on Venetian gondolas; this gave complete protection against the rain and waves. Underneath were women and children, and all the baggage and merchandise. There were twenty-five paddlers aboard, but they offered no resistance when our boats drew up to them."

A Spanish Galley was some 25 meters long, this translates that the Mayan Ocean traders were in 82' long 'gondola like craft.'  Friends of ours regularly make the trips from various South and Central American points to Florida in a 32' sail boat!

We don't have a lock on pranksters in the 21st Century either. Witness the Poteau, Shawnee, Turkey Mountain Runestones, which bears the same 'Viking' inscriptions, IN OKLAHOMA! Oh and another the Kensington Runestone in MN.

The reading of the "Elder Futhark" style runes is probably "GNOMEDAL" (meaning "Gnome Valley", or perhaps a personal name "G. Nomedal").

The difficulty of using the Heavener Runestone to demonstrate Viking exploration of the area is that the Elder Futhark had become obsolete by the 8th century, long before the Viking expeditions to Greenland and Vinland. Also, only six of the eight characters are correct Elder Futhark runes. A transliteration would read "G [rough backwards N] O M E D A [backwards L]". This leaves us cold with some 18th or 19th century clown screwing with our minds across the centuries.


Lastly: Since y'all are interested in this, from my roots, The Spiro Mounds:

QuoteUniversity of Oklahoma led WPA workers on a controlled excavation of the site in 1936 to salvage as much knowledge as possible about this unique site.. (Hopefully those Damned Sooners didn't screw this up)

The "Smoker", an effigy pipe from the Spiro Mounds. The pipe measures more than a foot in length and was made at the Cahokia site near St. Louis in the 1100's and brought to Spiro as part of the exchange between chiefdoms.
See more on smoking ceremonies in eastern Oklahoma.
   
Six mounds form a circular grouping around an oval plaza on the western side of the site. The largest of these is known as Brown mound. Steeply sloping on three sides, the mound had a walkway on the fourth, southern side which led to a building on top of the mound. This may have been a mortuary house where the dead were prepared for burial.

The eastern group of mounds, about a quarter mile from Brown mound, consisted of mounds where important leaders were buried with elaborate ceremony and grave goods. The preservation of delicate basketry, feather capes, and cloth was remarkable. Unfortunately, many of these fragile artifacts were destroyed in the plundering of the mounds by treasure hunters.

Trade goods found at the Spiro site include copper from the Great Lakes, shell beads from the Gulf of California, and conch shell from the Gulf of Mexico. They show the extensive trade networks connecting different cultures across the continent at the time.

Wonder if Pedro Menendez or Jean Ribault used U-Haul or '3 Men and a Truck?' ...Hey it could have happened!

Quote from: spuwho on February 27, 2014, 01:13:05 PM
I think Lakelander covered it in one of his neighborhood stories.

Yeah Spuwho, I went up and did my own unofficial dig one day and came back with a handful of 'ancient' railroad spikes! In fact did the same thing on North Main not too long ago and learned/discovered some facts I NEVER knew before. LOL!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-02-27at80316PM_zpsc2c3ad21.png)

QuoteIt may be just a cricket or a critter in the trees
It's givin' me the jitters in the joints around my knees
I think I see a shadow and it's fuzzy and it's furry
It's a whooz-it, it's a whatz-it
Who's that? Who's there? Who's where?
(Wizard Of Oz - The Jitterbug Lyrics
Deleted Scene)

This has been fun, Tacachale, I'd love to hear yours and the others opinions on the so-called Turnbull home ruins in New Smyrna Beach. This is a location where I tend to disagree with all of the 'local historical societies' as I think these ruins are from a latin heritage. Elgin Castle, Dunkeld or St.Andrews cathedrals in Scotland, all large stone block ruins much grander then anything that was in New Smyrna don't have anywhere near the foundational buttressing that this 'house' supposedly had.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2014, 08:50:31 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2014-02-27at80316PM_zpsc2c3ad21.png)

QuoteIt may be just a cricket or a critter in the trees
It's givin' me the jitters in the joints around my knees
I think I see a shadow and it's fuzzy and it's furry
It's a whooz-it, it's a whatz-it
Who's that? Who's there? Who's where?
(Wizard Of Oz - The Jitterbug Lyrics
Deleted Scene)

This has been fun, Tacachale, I'd love to hear yours and the others opinions on the so-called Turnbull home ruins in New Smyrna Beach. This is a location where I tend to disagree with all of the 'local historical societies' as I think these ruins are from a latin heritage. Elgin Castle, Dunkeld or St.Andrews cathedrals in Scotland, all large stone block ruins much grander then anything that was in New Smyrna don't have anywhere near the foundational buttressing that this 'house' supposedly had.

It was supposed to be a storehouse for the indigo and sugar cane the Turnbull plantation was going to export.  But the plantation workers rebelled and left for St Augustine. If it hadn't been buried under by the Spanish that coquina would probably be worse off for wear.

http://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/articles/2013/freelance-articles-2013/turnbull-ruins-new-smyrna-beach-ketcham.html (http://www.visitflorida.com/en-us/articles/2013/freelance-articles-2013/turnbull-ruins-new-smyrna-beach-ketcham.html)

A listing of all remaining Florida Indian mound sites can be found:

http://www.moundhouse.org/index.php/information/florida-archaeological-mound-sites (http://www.moundhouse.org/index.php/information/florida-archaeological-mound-sites)

Nice presentation Spuwho.  However, your statement: "The St. Johns River was not even accessible by ocean-going ships until the 1850s, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers dredged a channel through the shallow seven mile outlet of the St. Johns River." is not correct.  There have been several light houses built at the mouth of the St. John's.  Two of the earliest ones were built in 1830 and 1833.  There was a large and shifting sand "bar" at the mouth of the St. Johns but ship captains and pilots were well aware of these natural formations and they waited off shore till high tide and then with shallow draft vessels (some were quite large) they crossed the bar and followed the river channel inland.  Zephaniah Kingsley had a rather large ship, a bark, with a copper clad bottom and sailed in and out of the St. Johns as early as the 1820's and 1830's. By 1840 he traveled frequently back and forth to Haiti to visit his son -- all done before the river was dredged. And he surely was not the only boat in town.

Also, have you looked at the NOAA marine/nautical maps for the Altamaha River entrance?  Certainly no deep water port now or even back then.  The Altamaha has a tremendously large sand bar or shallow area extending north, south and even east of the river entrance.  A lot of facts to consider.

Also, looking at early French maps from that time period are quite comical.  Scale is horrendously off, and in areas that were not surveyed they fabricated all the stuff on the edges of the map.   An early French map shows a giant river running from the Atlantic to the Pacific dead across Canada. I'll see if I can post a picture.

There seems to be a trend today to completely discredit historical facts with Holy Grail type findings.  Of course history is not etched in stone but I'm very dubious of all these internet scholars who are "reporting" all these new discoveries.  Interesting stuff.  I'm not quite convinced.  Too many erroneous assumptions.  IMHO.