QuoteBy BETH KORMANIK,
The Times-Union
Not wanting to waste any more time, the Jacksonville City Council approved a $350 million county courthouse complex Tuesday night, boosting the project's budget by nearly $100 million.
Mayor John Peyton and Chief Judge Donald Moran advocated for the new plan, which passed 12-2.
Councilmen Bill Bishop and Art Graham voted against it after a quick debate.
"We do need a new courthouse, but this is the wrong way to do it," said Bishop, an architect.
He criticized the building plans as "inefficient for downtown land use" because they are too spread out.
That may be true, Councilman Warren Jones said, but it's time to move on with the project.
"By delaying this project, we're making the same mistake we made four to five years ago, because the cost of the project goes up every month," he said.
The council also decided to devote any proceeds from the sale of the current riverfront courthouse and the City Hall annex toward paying for the new construction.
Duval County voters originally approved building a $190 million County Courthouse eight years ago as part of the Better Jacksonville Plan sales tax increase. Since then, costs have risen and other complications have followed, leading Peyton to call the project "snakebitten."
Tuesday's council vote increases the budget from the $263.5 million that was authorized for the project in 2006.
The complex includes an 800,000-square-foot building for both criminal and civil courts, converting the old federal courthouse into the State Attorney's Office and moving the Public Defender's Office to the Ed Ball building.
City officials estimate the complex could be finished by the time Peyton leaves office June 30, 2011.
This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042308/met_271204928.shtml.
The council could have approved the project with conditions to ensure that the design made the most of the land it will sit on. They also could have placed a condition requiring the city to sell additional blocks of courthouse land to help make up the costs, place property back on the tax rolls and encourage dense downtown infill. I like Councilman Bishop. It sounds like he gets it. I guess that's what happens when you're educated on a subject, such as land use. It would do the city and the rest of the council good to take a few classes on urban design and the positive benefits of it with downtown development.
Can't say that I disagree with Bishop. Glad to see it moving forwad at least.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 06:27:43 AM
The council could have approved the project with conditions to ensure that the design made the most of the land it will sit on. They also could have placed a condition requiring the city to sell additional blocks of courthouse land to help make up the costs, place property back on the tax rolls and encourage dense downtown infill. I like Councilman Bishop. It sounds like he gets it. I guess that's what happens when you're educated on a subject, such as land use. It would do the city and the rest of the council good to take a few classes on urban design and the positive benefits of it with downtown development.
Well, now that it's a done deal (hopefully) what should the city do with the county courthouse? I wouldn't be opposed to continuing to make Bay street the entertainment district. The possibilities are very enticing.
Quote from: fsujax on April 23, 2008, 08:13:09 AM
Can't say that I disagree with Bishop. Glad to see it moving forwad at least.
Ditto.
Now show us the plans already!
Quote from: billbo on April 23, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 06:27:43 AM
The council could have approved the project with conditions to ensure that the design made the most of the land it will sit on. They also could have placed a condition requiring the city to sell additional blocks of courthouse land to help make up the costs, place property back on the tax rolls and encourage dense downtown infill. I like Councilman Bishop. It sounds like he gets it. I guess that's what happens when you're educated on a subject, such as land use. It would do the city and the rest of the council good to take a few classes on urban design and the positive benefits of it with downtown development.
Well, now that it's a done deal (hopefully) what should the city do with the county courthouse? I wouldn't be opposed to continuing to make Bay street the entertainment district. The possibilities are very enticing.
They'll issue an RFP about a year or so before the new courthouse nears completion. I wouldn't be suprised if Hyatt expands their convention facilities on the site with a little bit of retail/entertainment uses on the Bay Street side.
That's what I'd like to see.
Maybe I should send over a copy of the renderings I did of a convention center on that site....
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: billbo on April 23, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 06:27:43 AM
The council could have approved the project with conditions to ensure that the design made the most of the land it will sit on. They also could have placed a condition requiring the city to sell additional blocks of courthouse land to help make up the costs, place property back on the tax rolls and encourage dense downtown infill. I like Councilman Bishop. It sounds like he gets it. I guess that's what happens when you're educated on a subject, such as land use. It would do the city and the rest of the council good to take a few classes on urban design and the positive benefits of it with downtown development.
Well, now that it's a done deal (hopefully) what should the city do with the county courthouse? I wouldn't be opposed to continuing to make Bay street the entertainment district. The possibilities are very enticing.
They'll issue an RFP about a year or so before the new courthouse nears completion. I wouldn't be suprised if Hyatt expands their convention facilities on the site with a little bit of retail/entertainment uses on the Bay Street side.
Well, that would be good to have more hotel rooms downtown, but of course we'd all like more things to do. I understand that the Hyatt already has a decent sized convention room, do you think that there is any chance the city could coerce them to double it's size for a more reasonable selling price on the county courthouse? Then maybe we could do something to the Prime Osborn, to make it a little more functionable.
I don't think they would be building more hotel rooms. Hyatt wants to add to their convention space, making that site the premier convention facility in downtown. If that were to happen, the Prime Osborn could be converted into something else, like a transportation museum and terminal.
Or we could just demolish it like we do with most historic buildings downtown.
Does this mean that the council approved the latest courthouse design, or that they approved spending 350 million on the courthouse project?
Good question. I believe they just approved spending 350 million. The DDRB would be responsible for reviewing and approving the final design.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 02:44:45 PMThe DDRB would be responsible for reviewing and approving the final design.
As stringent as they have been with big tough folks like Community Connections, Berkman Plaza II, and retail in the parking garages over the years, I'm sure the'll go to battle with Peyton over this courthouse.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2008, 02:14:44 PM
I don't think they would be building more hotel rooms. Hyatt wants to add to their convention space, making that site the premier convention facility in downtown. If that were to happen, the Prime Osborn could be converted into something else, like a transportation museum and terminal.
Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2008, 02:18:39 PM
Or we could just demolish it like we do with most historic buildings downtown.
??? ::)
Let's not be ridiculous (In all respect)! They are not gonna touch that building with any wrecking ball. There are lots of other cities that did the same thing...probably worse! We do however need more hotel space though.
I was kidding - I will say that that building is probably petty safe from demolition.
I think the best thing to do would be to move the convention center to the courthouse site, then take the existing convention center, and try to compact that sprawling transit center. This would in turn free up more land for development.
Hind sight being truly 20/20, since we are having a Taj Mahal courthouse any way would'nt it have been much better if they had just built the original saving about 100 million dollars. I agree with the others anticipating what will be done with the existing courthouse site.
wait....AN 800something squarefeet building?! that means one block, no?! Yay!!!!
i wonder what the plans are like....
probobly a building that is Peyton's head. maybe with a thumbs up, sorta like this(except a building)....
(http://www.skatedc.org/pix/places/images/awakening.jpg)
or maybe a peyton highrise colossus!
(http://www.7wonders.info/colossus.jpg)
either way im happy. the other buildings being far away is kinda dumb, but hey, maybe the people will have to walk through downtown!!! well, let's not get crazy.....the fiasco is finally over....hopefully.
I am very happy that the City Council and Mayor have finally decided to act on this matter. I do hope that they revisit the issue of the design though. Hopefully the rendering was not the final word on this because it was abysmal.
Quote from: stephendare on April 24, 2008, 12:09:41 AM
They are expecting a mini boom of related construction to commence simultaneously with the Courthouse erection. (that sounds dodgy...oh well, its accurate)
Well, I'd say that when this thing actually breaks ground, THEN you might see some surrounding development. Until then.....
Vikki is wonderful. I love Vikki in Jesus's name. I hope the store is doing better....not the gossiping, but the retail side...who am I kidding I loved the gossip too. ;D
Glad to hear they are doing better - they really are two very nice people that are dedicated to their business.
This is just one example of the may people that were indirectly affected by five years of screwing around on the courthouse.
Well, that is the good news. Yeah!!!! They were always so giving to me during my job search sending and receiving faxes, use of their computers, their phones, copies of my resume, etc. I'm so grateful to them.
But all the mini construction will be for just more 9-5 business. Maybe some lawyers will get smart and add a loft or two above their new buildings.
This is where the DDRB should enforce the addition of street retail and make the downtown environment takes advantage of the courthouse's foot traffic. A ton of people will be visiting this particular area every weekday, between the hours of 9-5. It will be a good location for retailers and cafes looking to capitalize off the traffic. However, you're right in that this could be a huge dead zone (well it already is right now so it can't get any worse) at nights and weekends.
One way to help stimulate business on the weekend would be the inclusion of some urban public space (perhaps at the courthouse's entrance) that could include space for uses that attract visitors around the clock. In Toronto, their City Hall (which is more monumental then our courthouse will be), contains an outdoor concrete plaza with a huge water feature and monuments. During the workdays, its a popular place for street vendors. At night and on weekends the fountain and greenspace attracts visitors and serves as a drop off for local city tour operations. The fountain also becomes an outdoor ice skating rink during the winter.
(http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Images/CA/ON/YYZ/TorontoCityHall-001.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1311-p1010570.JPG)
In order for that to work there has to be a residential element nearby, which does not currently exist nor are there plans in the near future. That's why selling off the surrounding block for workforce housing makes the most sence. There is plenty of office space nearby and plenty of other vacant lots for new office towers for the lawers and other companies linked to the courthouse and city hall.
Remember, Metropolitan Lofts, Citi Place and the Adams Street strip is within a one to two block walk from the courthouse site. Nevertheless, I agree that additional courthouse property should be sold off. Its better to have one or two dead blocks on the weekend in the heart of downtown, then seven.
I forgot about Metropolitan. Hopefully, the east end of LaVilla will start to fill in to create a residential element completely surrounding the courthouse area thereby becomming a central meeting point.
Does anyone have a artist impression of what the courthouse is going to look like now. If seen the old peyton palace impressions, I wonder if anything changed??
well any blueprints?
I've put in two email requests, but nobody at city hall has responded to me yet.
Jacksonville should continue what it does best. Like, sprawl, churchen, and building that courthouse come on people focus.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2008, 08:52:31 AM
This is where the DDRB should enforce the addition of street retail and make the downtown environment takes advantage of the courthouse's foot traffic. A ton of people will be visiting this particular area every weekday, between the hours of 9-5. It will be a good location for retailers and cafes looking to capitalize off the traffic. However, you're right in that this could be a huge dead zone (well it already is right now so it can't get any worse) at nights and weekends.
One way to help stimulate business on the weekend would be the inclusion of some urban public space (perhaps at the courthouse's entrance) that could include space for uses that attract visitors around the clock. In Toronto, their City Hall (which is more monumental then our courthouse will be), contains an outdoor concrete plaza with a huge water feature and monuments. During the workdays, its a popular place for street vendors. At night and on weekends the fountain and greenspace attracts visitors and serves as a drop off for local city tour operations. The fountain also becomes an outdoor ice skating rink during the winter.
(http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Images/CA/ON/YYZ/TorontoCityHall-001.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1311-p1010570.JPG)
Very beautiful buildings. Something like this would go over extremely well in Jax and would certainly spur more commerce and retail in the surrounding area.
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