If NE Florida were to adopt a transit plan for the greater Jacksonville metro area and beyond (St Augustine), which service do you think best serves the population:
Gallery Style Bi-level with reversable seats and WiFi
(http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/products/images/zusametra-pc2002.jpg)
A single level electrified car (Commuter EMU)
(http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/products/images/znictd-emu2000.jpg)
Electrified Light Rail
(http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/products/images/zlactc.jpg)
Next Generation BiLevel (recently ordered by CalTrans and IDOT)
(http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/news/20121106.jpg)
Self Propelled Diesel DMU
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Three-car-VLocity-VL38.jpg/800px-Three-car-VLocity-VL38.jpg)
Light Rail
Since there's no such thing as one size or type fits all...
I'd prefer to see a seamlessly integrated mix catered to the context and demographics each corridor is designed to serve and penetrate.
For example, LRT may be idea if the distance is UNF/St. Johns Town Center to Downtown but we'd get more bang for our buck with a self propelled DMU or even a used push pull (perhaps from Caltran) for a line stretching to Green Cove Springs or St. Augustine.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 16, 2014, 10:15:59 PM
Since there's no such thing as one size or type fits all...
I'd prefer to see a seamlessly integrated mix catered to the context and demographics each corridor is designed to serve and penetrate.
For example, LRT may be idea if the distance is UNF/St. Johns Town Center to Downtown but we'd get more bang for our buck with a self propelled DMU or even a used push pull (perhaps from Caltran) for a line stretching to Green Cove Springs or St. Augustine.
Totally agree.
You notice I didn't list anything like monorail, maglev's (I know how you love em) or BRT.
I was thinking that what ever it was had to have some level of coexistence with what existed today in a regional setting.
I am not sure why DMU's are considered so uneconomic in the US. I recognize they are very close to buses in use, but the only drawback that I can see is that if the engine dies the whole unit has to go out of service. Whereas on the bi-level push/pull gallery cars they only need to swap the engine.
I would think a twice daily DMU from here to Gainesville & back would have some value in the future. If anything it would put a dent in the Waldo Police Department.
The only drawback on EMU's is the need for catenary. Superstorm Sandy has shown what high winds can do catenary. Electric definitely has benefits economically and ecologically, but since this is hurricane country, you would have to look at third rail as the alternate to hanging wires.
I am think more along the lines of lakelander suggested. Sreetcars connecting downtown and the downtown adjacent neighborhoods (Springfield, downtown, Brooklyn, Riverside, Avondale, San Marco) and commuter rail connecting Green Cove Springs, St. Augustine, and Fernandina via a downtown hub. I am not a big fan of park-and-ride lots so I would prefer a DOT (Development Oriented Transit) type of system.
I've been riding Israel Railways a good bit the past few days. While technically it is intercity rail, in some places it works more like commuter rail. During peak times there are trains in the Tel Aviv area every 15-20 minutes with some operating local routes and others doing express. Prices are also quite reasonable with rides of 90 minutes long costing about $12.
Isn't think putting the cart a bit before the horse? Seems like we're asking "what kind of pickup truck do we want" when we're not even sure we're getting an automobile, and even if we are, whether we want a pickup truck vs a sedan or sports car etc.
I would think that the answer would be entirely dependent on what kind of fixed-transit system(s) we want. How far apart are stops? What are the headways? How many people need we carry per vehicle? Peak-hours hub and spoke or full day area coverage? What exclusive rights of way, if any, would we have? At-grade crossings?
Let's decide what solution(s) find the right balance between the many competing concerns on the table first (cost, level of service, communities served, rights of way, politics) and what degree of implementation is actually possible in the foreseeable future (no way in hell we'll be seeing intercity rail, maglev to the airport, commuter lines, BRT *AND* streetcars in the next 20 years regardless of how good each option may look on paper) before trying to determine what specific tools we'll use to get there.
Excluding Maglev, I believe in 20 years, we could have a mix (most likely, not extensive) of every mode you just listed. Amtrak is essentially intercity rail, we'll have a watered down version of BRT soon and getting an initial commuter rail or streetcar line isn't time consuming, one you make a commitment to actually do it. Many of the points you've raised have already been answered for several corridors. However, to date, there's been no real commitment from city hall to see any of them happen. That's probably the largest obstacle at this point.
I hope Jacksonville goes for streetcars or light rail before deciding on anything commuter. I think Light Rail has the best chance initially.
A streetcar could work well and be highly useful, however, given the nature of old-timers in Riverside-Avondale, policy and attitude has to change severely to make it a success. Streetcar is pointless in the urban neighborhoods without the ability or political will to allow subsequent densification and a shift away from cars/parking to occur. Light rail is overkill for the urban neighborhoods, but could easily serve as a "heavy rail" system, connecting the major job centers and attractions to a few residential areas (i.e. downtown down Phillips over to the SS, connecting some apartment areas where young professionals live to the mall and to job centers, maybe even out to the beach, though that's a pipe dream).
I just don't think there will be much ridership of commuter rail at all. And then it will be held up as a waste of time and money, making it politically more difficult to get a useful system going. I realize commuter rail can be really cheap, but when you're talking conservative sunbelt city that relies on car and is proud of that fact, even $0.10 spent on transit that isn't an obvious $0.10 well spent is ground for an uproar.
Here's the most recent APTA ridership report for commuter rail systems:
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/commuterrailsystems_zps4459bef8.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/commuterrailsystems_zps4459bef8.jpg.html)
On paper it seems a lot of these systems are wastes, and they are mainly in the smaller metros. Salt Lake City's system is interesting, but they are so much more progressive than Jax will likely ever be.
Salt Lake City has LRT, BRT, etc. to feed riders into their commuter rail lines. I think commuter rail in Jax may work best as a hybrid intercity rail service. Something similar to the Pacific Surfliner that connects LA and San Diego with suburbs inbetween, that operates on 60 minute headways. Kind of how AAF could possibly be utilized between West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami. Although its intercity, it's quite possible for one to live in DT Fort Lauderdale or West Palm Beach and be a short two stop ride away from DT Miami.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
Excluding Maglev, I believe in 20 years, we could have a mix (most likely, not extensive) of every mode you just listed. Amtrak is essentially intercity rail, we'll have a watered down version of BRT soon and getting an initial commuter rail or streetcar line isn't time consuming, one you make a commitment to actually do it. Many of the points you've raised have already been answered for several corridors. However, to date, there's been no real commitment from city hall to see any of them happen. That's probably the largest obstacle at this point.
I think the last issue is the one I was primarily attempting to bring up. We have the study on the S-Line/GCS/St. Augustine options, we have duplicative, nominally BRT in the near future, rumors of FEC, restoring the Sunset Limited, tearing down/expanding the Skyway, streetcars, someone brought up a line to Gainesville... anything else I'm missing? Given the economic situation of the city and country, the attitude of a large portion of the citizenry, inaction from City Hall, political resistance to transit at a state level... I'm hugely skpetical of this shotgun approach to transit.
Outside of the urban studies-sphere, there remains a heck of a lot of resistance to well-planned, politically supported and concerted efforts to implement transit (Cincinnati street car, MARTA, expansion of TideRail, ARC tunnel). Given the level of indifference/intransigence to transit in NE Florida and bureaucratic ineptitude of government, splitting the vote of urban/transit activists among so many options would seem to doom these paper pipe dreams to failure. Barring some groundswell of popular support for a pro-transit mayor and city council (optimistic to say the least), the best approach would be something along the lines of the Oak Cliff Transit Authority (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iciuh5pbnsI): a handful of individuals concentrated on a single goal, backing up their words with action and money. Aside from, if I remember correctly, Ocklawaha's efforts to push for some sort of heritage line, MJers and other Jacksonville urbanites seem happier to dream, rather than decide and act.
I will say that I remain optimistic that the
2030 plan North Florida TPO will help bring some focus to the fight.
Quote from: JFman00 on February 17, 2014, 04:27:43 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
Excluding Maglev, I believe in 20 years, we could have a mix (most likely, not extensive) of every mode you just listed. Amtrak is essentially intercity rail, we'll have a watered down version of BRT soon and getting an initial commuter rail or streetcar line isn't time consuming, one you make a commitment to actually do it. Many of the points you've raised have already been answered for several corridors. However, to date, there's been no real commitment from city hall to see any of them happen. That's probably the largest obstacle at this point.
I think the last issue is the one I was primarily attempting to bring up. We have the study on the S-Line/GCS/St. Augustine options, we have duplicative, nominally BRT in the near future, rumors of FEC, restoring the Sunset Limited, tearing down/expanding the Skyway, streetcars, someone brought up a line to Gainesville... anything else I'm missing? Given the economic situation of the city and country, the attitude of a large portion of the citizenry, inaction from City Hall, political resistance to transit at a state level... I'm hugely skpetical of this shotgun approach to transit.
I'm not sure it's a shotgun approach as much as it's separating real stuff from dreams mentioned here. The real stuff local stuff is BRT-lite, the Skyway being expanded to Brooklyn, the JRTC, a streetcar in the mobility plan/JTA long range transportation plan, and commuter rail studies to St Aug/GCS/Fernandina, Amtrak down the FEC and possibly AAF expanding northward (depending on the Orlando/Miami line's success or failure.
If it's an idea that's not on the list above (restoring Sunset Limited, tearing down the skyway, commuter rail to Gainesville), it isn't recognized by any public agency, which means it's a dream more than anything else.
QuoteOutside of the urban studies-sphere, there remains a heck of a lot of resistance to well-planned, politically supported and concerted efforts to implement transit (Cincinnati street car, MARTA, expansion of TideRail, ARC tunnel). Given the level of indifference/intransigence to transit in NE Florida and bureaucratic ineptitude of government, splitting the vote of urban/transit activists among so many options would seem to doom these paper pipe dreams to failure. Barring some groundswell of popular support for a pro-transit mayor and city council (optimistic to say the least), the best approach would be something along the lines of the Oak Cliff Transit Authority (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iciuh5pbnsI): a handful of individuals concentrated on a single goal, backing up their words with action and money. Aside from, if I remember correctly, Ocklawaha's efforts to push for some sort of heritage line, MJers and other Jacksonville urbanites seem happier to dream, rather than decide and act.
Not a bad approach. But I'd advise if anyone wants to go this route, pick a "real" project and run with it. It will be much easier to push something through that's got some studies behind its back and public money you can tap into. If you're coming up with stuff that's not real but still involves operating on public ROW, you're going to hit the same political wall eventually but with no funding.
NE Florida needs grass root efforts to educate the taxpayers on the benefits of transit and TOD as it relates to the nature of the region.
I don't think it should be a lobbying effort. Politicians ultimately follow the will of people and getting them educated on the merits will have more lasting value than having some local politico trying to twist arms or sway the council.
When RTA in Illinois was first proposed, people freaked out on some of the sales tax proposals, but after some very well led public hearings, grass roots education and rare cooperation between the City of Chicago and the State of Illinois, it passed without a hitch. Former Gov. Richard Ogilvie led the way and gets the credit.
The grass roots education on how the dollars would used went a long way to gain the public support.
I don't see much a difference here. It could take 5-10 years, but now is a good time to start.
Fortunately, we're not Yeehaw Junction. Part of that education process should be better utilizing what we already have in place. We don't need a referendum or a sales tax increase to better utilize the Skyway in the downtown area or to encourage TOD around its existing stations. We don't need public or political buy in at this point to make sure the initial BRT route is a grade A operation either. However, utilizing them in a manner that allows the public to see, feel, touch and smell real life examples of what well planned and operated transit can do will help in any push for additional public investment.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2014, 10:06:33 PM
Fortunately, we're not Yeehaw Junction. Part of that education process should be better utilizing what we already have in place. We don't need a referendum or a sales tax increase to better utilize the Skyway in the downtown area or to encourage TOD around its existing stations. We don't need public or political buy in at this point to make sure the initial BRT route is a grade A operation either. However, utilizing them in a manner that allows the public to see, feel, touch and smell real life examples of what well planned and operated transit can do will help in any push for additional public investment.
On this I humbly disagree.
While I used funding as a grass roots example, it is clear that the greater NE Florida area chooses to ignore efforts to embrace TOD and by extension transit services. A grass roots education effort would improve the perception and methods of why good transit and TOD should exist.
People won't embrace "what we already have" until they begin to understand what a vital component it is to the area.
And where I do disagree with you completely is that
every public effort, and that includes BRT, must have some level of public buy in. The build it first mentality and people will come is baloney in today's world. Unless there is a corresponding effort with the city fathers to organize, educate and enforce TOD along the ROW, its a huge waste of money and merely destroys public confidence in the effort.
Realistically, I'm not sure the majority of NE Florida will ever embrace TOD by extension of transit service....or if it ever should. We never embraced SR 9B, the Outer Beltway or toll lanes but we're getting them anyway. Just looking at Jax, we're an 800-mile city where most of it doesn't even have the density to support fixed transit and won't anytime soon.
I'll admit, I'm not a strong believer in marketing schemes (I'm a show me, don't sell me type of person), but I'm not against grass roots public education efforts. I just don't think a JTA or COJ needs to sit and wait for massive countywide public support before better utilizing what we already have and can afford to operate/expand.
After all, there's several examples out there (like a Houston, Charlotte or San Diego) where someone or some entity launched something small and within their means, which ended up helping growing more mass support for larger expansions years later.
I'm of the opinion if you can only pull off 5-10 miles of something locally, make it the best 5-10 miles of local service that it can be. Maybe you don't end up with the latest and greatest 20-30 mile long LRT line that makes every other community jealous but so what. You can still end up with a pretty vibrant and healthy tax roll generating core out of an area that's a burnt out shell today. Even then, through good coordination with other agencies (Amtrak, FDOT, AAF, etc.), you can still incrementally pull off massive improvements that expand your reach even if the guy living just outside of Baldwin, Mandarin or Oceanway never hops on board. So, if a grass roots public education effort succeeds, it simply adds to the momentum that was already in place.
Nevertheless, there's already public buy-in for making the skyway more functional and even BRT through the Northside. We should acknowledge and utilize that pre-existing support.
^You need local public support to raise taxes to fund something like LRT or local commuter rail. I'm in agreement there. However, you don't need massive public support to improve what you already have.
For example, if JTA wants to expand to Brooklyn, they don't need the Argyle guy's permission to do so unless Argyle guy is footing the bill. They have enough in their reserves already. If San Marco wants a Skyway extension, they shouldn't have to wait for a marketing effort for buy-in from Arlington if they want to form a TIF to fund improvements in their neighborhood. By the same token, if Amtrak wants to run down the FEC to Miami, you don't need to fund an local education campaign to make sure there are stops in Downtown Jax and St. Augustine, enabling some sort of direct service between the two cities. If AAF wants to expand to town, who cares what the guy in Lackawanna or Riverside thinks about them if they are footing the bill for service on tracks already owned by them? You should always seek to improve regardless of what type of business or operation you're involved in, whether you have massive public buy-in or not.
Good points, but it doesn't take an urban planner to look at the design for the JRTC and conclude that the powers that be at both the local and state level (cough JTA and FDOT) have no interest in focusing on the kinds of projects that would build public opinion. JTA *could* do those things *if* they wanted to. But at this rate, JTA gets away with 50k for a streetcar study here or another study on one of the longer fixed lines there, without ever seriously having to attempt anything. Indeed, with the split of opinion here (many Riverside and San Marco residents) on whether expanding the Skyway would be money better spent on project x or y, JTA gets away with doing nothing while paying lip service to community input.
I'd argue there's already public support for a lot of things. The public has wanted a vibrant downtown for decades. Still hasn't happened. The public wasn't crazy about the Outer Beltway and toll facilities, but you're still getting them. Over the last decade, I've been involved with several initiatives ranging from COJ visioning plan efforts, commuter rail studies and the mobility plan to North Florida TPO long range transportation planning and various downtown revitalization efforts. In every case, people have asked for a more transit friendly city.
Speaking of streetcar, it's easy for the average guy to toss JTA under the bus but the mobility plan/fee funds it without JTA, if COJ wants to go that route. The ground level support for several initiatives is and has been there a while. Just look at how the public reacts every time council decides to tinker with the mobility plan (despite public support, they still continue to cater to special interests every year). People come out in droves.
But what's the proposal on the table to harness the energy? Are you guys envisioning having the public vote for a sales tax increase for several projects, lobbying for finishing land use/zoning changes along existing/proposed transit corridors or are we talking about just figuring out how to get some incremental things done without going that route? If asking for money, get in line because every group from libraries to JAXPORT is at the table with their hands out. Without being able to illustrate some type of improvement with what we already have in place, good luck at getting the majority of the city to tax themselves more.
Also, I'm pretty much convinced there's a layer of special interest with strong political influence you'll need to overcome and I'm not sure a marketing effort is going to get that done....unless it's focused on showing that layer of influence how they can make money off of it.
Just for fun I made a quick Jacksonville Regional Rail route map. This route uses existing lines except for the JIA extension. Feel free to pick it apart. :)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Jax%20Stuff/JaxRegionalRail_zps73f361f6.jpg) (http://s1178.photobucket.com/user/KerryinJax/media/Jax%20Stuff/JaxRegionalRail_zps73f361f6.jpg.html)