In my inbox this afternoon:
Quote
We have gotten many questions about the bicycle ride to see the Riverside Avondale Luminaria which has been a popular event in the neighborhood for over twenty years.
In the last few years Luminaria has become chaotic and unsafe. The JSO Officers that we spoke to about the event fully agree.
CityCycle is not promoting or participating in a Luminaria bike ride this year - it would be irresponsible to do so.
It would be devastating to see someone get hurt and rescue vehicles not be able to get to them because of the complete gridlock we have seen the last couple of years. The event is certainly not safe for kids! Children are hanging out car windows, standing on running boards, riding on hoods, etc. The number of cars, illegal trailers, horse wagons, monster trucks, and people throwing stuff has become crazy!! A double decker swamp buggy even polluted the streets last year. JSO officers say they could stop and ticket hundreds of violations. "They are unable to control things." It has become a disaster. Last year was the worst ever. This once was a nice, pleasant, peaceful evening to see the Christmas lights. It is far from that now. Two years ago I had to drive a cyclist to the emergency room after he was beat up by three young motorists. It is a shame. Residents are upset and have complained about the trash and people throwing things. There have also been complaints about bicycle riding on the wrong side of the road, through yards, and running over luminaries, etc.
Several officers have suggested closing St. Johns Avenue down to car traffic. But that will be up to the residents and RAP (Riverside Avondale Preservation).
Everyone is free to make the best of the evening and to be careful. Hopefully something will be done soon to make it a nice event. Maybe JSO will step up patrols to ticket many of the bad apples who have ruined this wonderful event.
Thanks
Drew
It's the RPC. They get that pizza in them and they just go all crazy!! Last year there wasn't even a MM in the area and they still caused havoc. You can only imagine the terror they will cause next year. There won't be an orange tree left standing. Lock your doors; the Rowdy Pizza Crowd is coming....
Hard to trust City Cycle, but he may be right. If that's the case & its grown that large, why not treat it as a parade & close down the streets?
Drew was very oppsed to Mellow Mushroom. Funny how this event and the Avondale Merchant Associations sponsored event of XMas in Avondale are the only times I have had trash in my yard. Not normal restaurant operations like MM will be. To be honest even then it isn't much of an issue.
I have always thought a way to break the mess Luminaria has become is to do what I have seen in Raleigh, NC where I used to live and have the Luminarias out for a week or so lit every evening so not everyone comes the same night. Then cap it off by teaming up with the Merchants and making XMas in Avondale (when streets are closed) the end of Luminaria week. Or something like that.
Quote from: JHAT76 on December 10, 2013, 06:18:10 PM
Drew was very oppsed to Mellow Mushroom. Funny how this event and the Avondale Merchant Associations sponsored event of XMas in Avondale are the only times I have had trash in my yard. Not normal restaurant operations like MM will be. To be honest even then it isn't much of an issue.
Are you sure you aren't thinking if the expansion at Kickbacks? He spoke against it during the LUZ meetings, but don't recall his name coming up during the MM discussion.
Quote from: Josh on December 10, 2013, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: JHAT76 on December 10, 2013, 06:18:10 PM
Drew was very oppsed to Mellow Mushroom. Funny how this event and the Avondale Merchant Associations sponsored event of XMas in Avondale are the only times I have had trash in my yard. Not normal restaurant operations like MM will be. To be honest even then it isn't much of an issue.
Are you sure you aren't thinking if the expansion at Kickbacks? He spoke against it during the LUZ meetings, but don't recall his name coming up during the MM discussion.
He was pretty outspoken on the We Love Avondale Facebook page. Also I believe he signed the Change.org petition. If that Drew is the same guy.
Out of hand? I suppose it depends on what the neighborhood would like the event to be? As "free" advertising for the real estate it's good. As a spectacle, especially for the happy-motorists, it may be great. As an expression of a 1920's, walkable, streetcar suburb, it is has become pretty perverse. It is hard to imagine an evening more enticing, yet more miserable for the bicyclist / pedestrian. Given our status as #3 in the nation in pedestrian fatalities (according to 1 study at least), it is hard to blame City Cycle for drawing a line in the (luminaria) sand.
I like the idea of it going on for a week, I don't think the luminaria themselves can last that long. Perhaps establishing a "parade" route for vehicles, while closing down other streets to thru traffic could help allow the cars and bike / peds co-exist?
I think "out of hand" is a bit of an exaggeration. Last year was really busy, to the point that Park st. was backed up from 17 all the way in through the neighborhood to King Street. It's just grown more popular. In the past few years it's been advertised EVERYWHERE (print, radio, etc.) and that has brought in huge crowds of cars wanting to cruise and see the sights. RACC brought in a huge crowd last year with their live nativity scene, and that caused a TON of traffic in that area. But it was a good time.
Personally, I think this year with the Willowbranch and riverside resurfacing projects going on, it's going to be an absolute shit-show. However, I feel like City-Cycle is being bike-elitist in this case. And for them to get snooty about this is a bit ridiculous, considering the fact that every year I've witnessed people on bikes drinking during the ride, screaming at pedestrians, throwing empty cans on the ground, etc. They aren't the angels here. If the ride is that big of a deal, why don't they get the permitting, off duty police blocking the route and get the route sectioned off like they do with running events?
Maybe Drew was warned that there were going to be arrests this year.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 11, 2013, 12:20:20 PM
Personally, I think this year with the Willowbranch and riverside resurfacing projects going on, it's going to be an absolute shit-show.
So true
"Bike-elitism" exists, to be sure. But it is also true that "Auto-hegemony" is out of hand in Jacksonville. All of us know someone who has been threatened / injured / killed on a bike or walking. I think there is something to the notion that a nice tradition in one of our most bike/ped friendly is becoming symbolic of car culture.
The crazy auto traffic is nothing new...been pretty bad for some time now. I haven't been the past year or two, but its always been a mess. Especially close to the Shoppes of Avondale and on Park/Edgewood.
Wouldn't a solution be to close down some of the local roads for a few hours and restrict them to just hayrides, trucks with people in beds, and bikes/pedestrians? The true charm of Luminaria is best experienced on foot/bike anyways. You can't fully experience the wandering cocktail parties, house parties, random carolers, church displays, and the like from a drive by. Maybe closing down the roads could help bring some of the charm back.
Quote from: bencrix on December 11, 2013, 02:00:04 PM
"Bike-elitism" exists, to be sure. But it is also true that "Auto-hegemony" is out of hand in Jacksonville. All of us know someone who has been threatened / injured / killed on a bike or walking. I think there is something to the notion that a nice tradition in one of our most bike/ped friendly is becoming symbolic of car culture.
I 100% agree, and I don't want my comment to come off as the Auto-hegemony rearing its ugly head. But there has to be a balance when it comes to a happening like this and it speaks to the bigger issue of the fact that our city is so bike unfriendly.
Quote from: CityLife on December 11, 2013, 02:08:42 PM
Wouldn't a solution be to close down some of the local roads for a few hours and restrict them to just hayrides, trucks with people in beds, and bikes/pedestrians? The true charm of Luminaria is best experienced on foot/bike anyways. You can't fully experience the wandering cocktail parties, house parties, random carolers, church displays, and the like from a drive by. Maybe closing down the roads could help bring some of the charm back.
I agree, but the problem I could foresee would be people cramming it in wherever they can just to park to walk into the neighborhood and limit the whole shebang to just Riverside/Avondale people, thus leading to traffic/parking nightmares for any place not in the blocked off area. Even still, you're very correct that the best way to experience it is on foot or on bike.
Everyone could park at FSCJ and then either walk/bike, or take a shuttle bus up Park closer to the heart of the activities. JTA could charge $5 a head RT to shuttle from there and maybe make a buck or two.
The traffic effectively closes the roads off for thru/local traffic anyways, so formally closing it and limiting it wouldn't really affect the locals too much anyways.
QuoteHard to trust City Cycle, but he may be right. If that's the case & its grown that large, why not treat it as a parade & close down the streets?
Yeah, and the ambulance route crazies would be burning down Jim Love's house. Uh, not a good idea.
The issue isn't that bikers are a great part of the fun, its the fact that last year there were over 200 cyclists in that huge group. Imaging 200 people walking down a street, then add bikes, its chaotic. And then they weave in and out of traffic that is already backed up and Joe Blow is too busy throwing candy at his friend on the sidewalk and doesn't see number 185 in the pack and takes out the bike. The ambulances cant get through because someone had the bright idea to close down the streets in the area, and then Stephen proclaims that Avondale is not safe because cyclists cannot cycle the area without fearing for their life.
Basically dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
No need to invoke Dr. Venkman!
The issue is that pedestrians and bicyclists are increasingly second class citizens at an event (at least partially) conceived to show of some of Jacksonville's best urban fabric.
The large group of bikes is one of the years' most visible statements that our roads should be multimodal. So it is a shame that the metastacizing car culture of the event is sweeping that symbolism aside.
I think the issue should be acknowledged by those organizing the event (as well as those participating it) and creative solutions should be sought.
So mtrain is saying there are too many bikes, while others are saying too many cars? Let's all just stay home this year to avoid the anarchy. Better yet, how about a one in one out policy, so we can each enjoy the softly glowing paper bags in peace and quiet???
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 11, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
QuoteHard to trust City Cycle, but he may be right. If that's the case & its grown that large, why not treat it as a parade & close down the streets?
Yeah, and the ambulance route crazies would be burning down Jim Love's house. Uh, not a good idea.
The issue isn't that bikers are a great part of the fun, its the fact that last year there were over 200 cyclists in that huge group. Imaging 200 people walking down a street, then add bikes, its chaotic. And then they weave in and out of traffic that is already backed up and Joe Blow is too busy throwing candy at his friend on the sidewalk and doesn't see number 185 in the pack and takes out the bike. The ambulances cant get through because someone had the bright idea to close down the streets in the area, and then Stephen proclaims that Avondale is not safe because cyclists cannot cycle the area without fearing for their life.
Basically dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
I assume any barricades to regular auto traffic could be easily lifted for emergency vehicles by manning them with officers/personnel, just like in every other parade across the country does. Or am I just talking crazy??
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 11, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
The issue isn't that bikers are a great part of the fun, its the fact that last year there were over 200 cyclists in that huge group. Imaging 200 people walking down a street, then add bikes, its chaotic.
I think it's truly an amazing sight to see so many bicyclists, young and old, athletes and amateurs alike riding freely at night in the middle of the streets(!) of Jacksonville without fear of being just another victim of vehicular homicide, even if it is just for one night a year. Yes, you may get a few dirtpunks or massholes out there, but the majority of riders I've seen were pretty well behaved and polite. It would be a sad state of affairs if the annual Luminaria night ride were shut down for safety concerns; fingers crossed that although City Cycle has declined to participate and lead the ride this year that lots of riders will still show up in front of E-Street at 6 pm for this joyously chaotic bike parade.
It could even be used as a teachable moment to create a share-the-road awareness for all the drivers that come out to look at the lights (which as others have already pointed out, is really the worst possible way to enjoy the neighborhood).
Critical Mass die-in in London: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6b4hFFE79-s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6b4hFFE79-s)
QuoteI think the issue should be acknowledged by those organizing the event (as well as those participating it) and creative solutions should be sought.
Spoken like someone who has never been stuck in the mess of cars that creep along at 5 mph, while the cyclist zoom around cars at 20-30 mph. Nah, its not dangerous....
QuoteI assume any barricades to regular auto traffic could be easily lifted for emergency vehicles by manning them with officers/personnel, just like in every other parade across the country does. Or am I just talking crazy??
This event is not a
parade, there is no need for police presence to block roads, as the event has grown in stature, more people come to the neighborhood, by car, to participate. No need to burden RAP with expensive offduty police officers. I'd say you are talking a wee bit crazy.
QuoteIt could even be a used as a teachable moment to create a share-the-road awareness for all the drivers that come out to look at the lights (which as others have already pointed out, is really the worst possible way to enjoy the neighborhood).
How do you teach share-the-road when traffic in cars crawls at 5 mph and cyclists are getting beaned in the head by kids throwing candy at people? Why not just break out the baseball bats and clobber the unsuspecting cyclists? Is this event the best place to have a swarm of 200+ cyclists weaving in and out of traffic crawling along the roadway? Why not just add 200 cyclists to a Mardi Gras Parade? That is the speed of the traffic in Avondale on this night. Kudos to City Cycle for realizing this is a dangerous night to be riding on major roads in the area.
Why should RAP have to pay for police? It's a public event in a public place, JSO should provide whatever police presence is necessary to make sure it's smooth and orderly. This is what our taxes pay for.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 12, 2013, 05:11:19 AM
QuoteSpoken like someone who has never been stuck in the mess of cars that creep along at 5 mph, while the cyclist zoom around cars at 20-30 mph. Nah, its not dangerous....
You are mostly correct... As many have already noted, the best way to experience this neighborhood event (has been) is on foot / on a bike. However, the pleasure of the event is increasingly tempered (threatened) by frustrated motorists like yourself. There is a need for balance.
As for bikes moving at 20-30 mph, you may have confused Luminaria with Tour de France (i.e. spoken like someone who hasn't spent much time on a bike / too much time in a car).
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 12, 2013, 05:11:19 AM
No need to burden RAP with expensive offduty police officers. I'd say you are talking a wee bit crazy.
Exactly. RAP exists to impose burdens, not to bear them. Suggesting otherwise is lunacy.
QuoteWhy should RAP have to pay for police? It's a public event in a public place, JSO should provide whatever police presence is necessary to make sure it's smooth and orderly. This is what our taxes pay for.
Yeah, that's not how it works here....... but we should try it when we create utopia.
I'm not sure there is an obvious / clearly feasible solution along the lines of police / parade routes / etc., but these should be explored.
RAP certainly raises funds from this event and they clearly have a claim on advocating for quality of life in the neighborhood, so they have a "dog in the fight."
Perhaps the most effective approach would be for neighborhood organizations and promotors to raise this issue and campaign for folks to enjoy the event on foot and on bike / discourage use of cars.
Beyond that, provisions could be made to facilitate parking on the periphery of the event and provide access to transportation to the center.
It seems to me that actions like this could both improve the visitor experience and boost the prospect for commerce during the event.
Quoteyawn
Pot....kettle...black....
QuotePerhaps the most effective approach would be for neighborhood organizations and promotors to raise this issue and campaign for folks to enjoy the event on foot and on bike / discourage use of cars.
The desired intent of the Avondale Riverside Trolley is to do just that! In fact this Sunday there will be trolleys in the procession, rented out by local citizens to have groups of people see the lights around the area, instead of using cars. So there is some progress in this fight against the dastardly use of automobiles.
With regard to commerce, not many shops stay open on Sunday night, as this is really about the neighborhood, not the shops, they had their fun last weekend in Christmas in Avondale, which I heard was a complete blowout of business, very, very well received. Yes, the merchants did close down St. Johns Avenue and they did have to band together to pay for the off duty police, the police were not free as some might think....
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 12, 2013, 05:11:19 AM
This event is not a parade, there is no need for police presence to block roads, as the event has grown in stature, more people come to the neighborhood, by car, to participate. No need to burden RAP with expensive offduty police officers. I'd say you are talking a wee bit crazy.
If the Riverside/Avondale Luminaria is getting too dangerous and chaotic for bicyclists or pedestrians in arguably the most pedestrian and bike friendly neighborhood in the city due to all of the non-local auto traffic, why NOT just make this an official Christmas parade and bring a bit of order to the anarchy?
I'm certainly no expert on parade planning and logistics, but lots of cities larger AND smaller than Jacksonville have them every year without too much fuss. Close off some streets for a parade route, have a few JSO officers on hand to keep the peace, maybe a fire/rescue crew on standby in case anyone gets hurt. If people want to participate in the parade and get creative with trailers and floats, why not have a nominal entry fee on a sliding scale based on the size of the vehicle or the amount of noxious fumes expelled--$25 for trucks, $20 for cars, $15 for lawn tractors, $10 for bikes, $1 for walkers, dogs and babies are free. Any proceeds can go to pay for clean up. Like a 5K, you get a registration number and sign a waiver to abide by certain rules (no open containers, no throwing candy, no driving faster than 5 mph, etc.). Have the bike contingent start it, followed by the slower walkers, then car/truck floats. Finish up with the mayor and Santy Claus on a big float waving to the crowd. Bam--instant civic pride.
Ideally it would start or finish downtown instead of Riverside/Avondale, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
Quotethis an official Christmas parade
The event is not a parade, if it were a parade, you would need to include every street in Riverside and Avondale, as every street has luminarias on them in some facet.
The cars, pedestrians, cyclists, dogs and cats that weave through the fabric of the neighborhood for this one night at 5 mph or less, make it seem as if it is a parade, hence the reason why JSO are not used to block off streets, instead some neighbors might do this, but as you have seen from Christmas in Avondale, if you park enough people on Pine Street, you only have room for 1 car down the middle and this is enough of an incentive to avoid the street entirely.
The event is really about the neighborhood, why should we change it and call it a parade when its just a show of pride and respect for the area? San Marco does it as do other neighborhoods or HOAs, nothing new about this one, only the fact that it grows and grows, last year I think they said they sold 30,000 bags worth. A lot of candles, sand and white paper bags.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 12, 2013, 10:18:15 AM
Quotethis an official Christmas parade
The event is not a parade, if it were a parade, you would need to include every street in Riverside and Avondale, as every street has luminarias on them in some facet.
The cars, pedestrians, cyclists, dogs and cats that weave through the fabric of the neighborhood for this one night at 5 mph or less, make it seem as if it is a parade, hence the reason why JSO are not used to block off streets, instead some neighbors might do this, but as you have seen from Christmas in Avondale, if you park enough people on Pine Street, you only have room for 1 car down the middle and this is enough of an incentive to avoid the street entirely.
The event is really about the neighborhood, why should we change it and call it a parade when its just a show of pride and respect for the area? San Marco does it as do other neighborhoods or HOAs, nothing new about this one, only the fact that it grows and grows, last year I think they said they sold 30,000 bags worth. A lot of candles, sand and white paper bags.
If it quacks like a parade and walks like a parade, why not just make it official and call it a parade?
City Cycle is right though--something probably needs to be done before some granny or young kid looking at the pretty lights gets run over and killed by some doofus in a 4x4 not paying attention because he's throwing candy out the window.
QuoteIf it quacks like a parade and walks like a parade, why not just make it official and call it a parade?
Why don't you create the Festivus Parade, we will in turn follow you....seems fitting since a man has created a pole of PBR cans in the DC Capital Rotunda, seems only fitting. I love a good parade.