Metro Jacksonville

Lately, there's been a lot of debate about concert noise at Metropolitan Park. Is it time to move on from Metropolitan Park by building a modern amphitheatre in town?  If so, where do you think would be the best potential location?

QuoteMuch ado about noise at Metro Park on Jacksonville's riverfront

City Councilman Richard Clark had heard enough about imposing regulations on concert promoters using Metropolitan Park, the riverfront park next to EverBank Field.

Instead of drafting regulations, Clark said, the city should be competing with St. Johns County for the tours that have been flocking to its St. Augustine Amphitheatre.

"This stuff is the reason St. Augustine continuously kicks our butt," Clark said during debate last week on proposed noise level limits. "We need to find a way to promote Metropolitan Park, not get in the way."

But City Councilman Bill Bishop said if Jacksonville wants to compete for those tours, the city should find a location that's suitable for that kind of entertainment and build an amphitheater there.

Metro Park isn't it, he said.

"Met Park was never intended to be for rock festivals," Bishop said. "It was for Starry Nights and for Jazz Fest."

full article: http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-12-01/story/much-ado-about-noise-metro-park-jacksonvilles-riverfront

And Bishop's statement would make sense if we didn't have exploding fireworks every time two or three are gathered together.

My vote is "both". The current facility should be promoted and used, not restricted. But it's definitely inadequate for modern outdoor concerts. We need something new, either at that site or elsewhere. Otherwise we'll continue to miss out on concerts - not just to St. Augustine, but concerts that continue to pass the whole region by.

My favorite quote was  from Bill Bishop "we are supposed to use it for Starry Nights and the Jazz Festival". Uh, Bill, when was the last time Mayor Alvin Brown presents the Jacksonville Jazz Fesitival, was at Met Park? Starry Nights? I think the Symphony played with Styx like 5 years ago.

Bill, wake up!

Does Met park need welcome to Rockville to succeed? No, there is no need for that vulgarity there. Put them at the Fairgrounds, where they can handle that and have in the past. Use Met park for similar events that are making St. Augustine RICH. If we need to put up a HUGE Steel Wall to keep the eardrums from the people in St. Nicholas from exploding, do so. The Arena is too big at 12-13k seats for most of these acts, so we lose out to the likes of SA.

Quote from: sheclown on December 01, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
And Bishop's statement would make sense if we didn't have exploding fireworks every time two or three are gathered together.

please...fireworks last 10 minutes....not for hours on end (like some of the rock festivals)....not even close to comparable

BS. Fireworks wake people out of a dead sleep. Make dogs randomly bark and pee inside. Wake sleeping infants   And how often do we have them?

We won't even talk about what it does to the birds

I was at Rockville. It was fine and fun

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 01, 2013, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: sheclown on December 01, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
And Bishop's statement would make sense if we didn't have exploding fireworks every time two or three are gathered together.

please...fireworks last 10 minutes....not for hours on end (like some of the rock festivals)....not even close to comparable

I'm surprised you're not in favor of the concerts, think of how much business it generates for your precious parking meters.

Is there currently a curfew for Metro park? 

I know St. Augustine has a 10pm weekday and 10:30 weekend curfew with a $1,500.00 fine for every 5 minutes past.

I would love to see Metro Park become what the St. Augustine Amphitheater has become, while keeping a balance to the concerns of its neighbors.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 01, 2013, 09:22:04 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 01, 2013, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: sheclown on December 01, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
And Bishop's statement would make sense if we didn't have exploding fireworks every time two or three are gathered together.

please...fireworks last 10 minutes....not for hours on end (like some of the rock festivals)....not even close to comparable

I'm surprised you're not in favor of the concerts, think of how much business it generates for your precious parking meters.

oh don't get me wrong...I have no problem with the concerts (parking revenue aside)...just think noise from fireworks is not a good analogy

Quote from: sheclown on December 01, 2013, 07:59:30 PM
BS. Fireworks wake people out of a dead sleep. Make dogs randomly bark and pee inside. Wake sleeping infants   And how often do we have them?

We won't even talk about what it does to the birds

I was at Rockville. It was fine and fun

so basically you don't like fireworks but music is ok...how is that different from those who may like fireworks, but not the music?

and, btw, fireworks pretty much happen around 9 or 9:30pm and have been done before 10 every time I can remember...not exactly bumping up against the late night noise ordinance

Quote from: stephendare on December 01, 2013, 10:31:46 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 01, 2013, 07:17:50 PM

Quote from: sheclown on December 01, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
And Bishop's statement would make sense if we didn't have exploding fireworks every time two or three are gathered together.

please...fireworks last 10 minutes....not for hours on end (like some of the rock festivals)....not even close to comparable

yeah.  pretty close to comparable.

This is all based on an imaginary right to silence.

its not really imaginary...there are acceptable noise levels in local ordinances all over the country...which is why curfews like the one mentioned above by Gators312 are implemented

Did Rockville violate the curfew?

Noise is noise bubba. If you want a quiet city it needs to be across the board 

This is clearly not just about noise, it is about controlling the type of music (or type of noise -- fireworks, airplanes, trains, crowds cheering, broadcast recorded music at the landing -- these are all around us, but not a problem somehow?).  If Rockville violated the curfew, then discuss that issue.  If it violated the sound level, then discuss that (which I don't believe it did). 

Is it okay if only for a few hours?  So it is the length of time? 

What is the real issue. 

QuoteI was at Rockville. It was fine and fun

Rockville went on the same time as Cole Pepper's BBQ event at the Jaguar facilities. I definitely heard the F-bombs a number of times, and there were kids at this family event. Not family entertainment when you have to explain what the "singer" is spewing.....

Quote from: mtraininjax on December 02, 2013, 08:44:05 AM

QuoteI was at Rockville. It was fine and fun

Rockville went on the same time as Cole Pepper's BBQ event at the Jaguar facilities. I definitely heard the F-bombs a number of times, and there were kids at this family event. Not family entertainment when you have to explain what the "singer" is spewing.....

Then do what parents do & explain to them its bad words they're not supposed to say.

You can't censor the world, especially when you're out in public.

QuoteYou can't censor the world, especially when you're out in public.

I never said censor the world, if you re-read my prior post, I suggested that Rockville belongs at a different venue, perhaps one such as the Fairgrounds, where it had been in the past.

I agree with the St. Nicholas residents with regard to Rockville, it is not a family friendly show, so why subject people around it to the vulgarity? You should not have to flee your house from obscenities being blasted across the river into your living room. Rockville, in its form last year, does not belong in Met Park.

Quotethey dont have to hear the word in movies, music or school.

Love the Sarcasm Stephen, its Monday, remember, and parents do a better job of qualifying the content on shows watched or the movies. Parents are not naive, but they don't need to hear it 10x in a minute when they are at a park or at a local event. If it were acceptable, why not drop the F bomb at the city meetings you attend? I'd love to view the public records of your rants using profanity. You'll be popular!

I'm a fly on the wall but why the Fairgrounds instead of Metropolitan Park?  So the Eastside can be impacted by what some in the St. Nicholas complain about? 

Quote from: stephendare on December 02, 2013, 09:10:49 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on December 02, 2013, 09:07:22 AM
I'm a fly on the wall but why the Fairgrounds instead of Metropolitan Park?  So the Eastside can be impacted by what some in the St. Nicholas complain about?

The eastside, apparently isnt entitled to TUFSU's right to silence.

If you think about it, special noise zones should be set up (and put under a glass dome, where applicable) in areas which are well......more suitable for the impacts of noise.

We will have to ignore the highways, roads, trains and boats coursing through the entire city, but if you pretend not to hear it, its almost exactly the same thing.

I was going to say that. The Fairgrounds is closer to a residential area than Metro Park. As in, it's basically across the street, rather than across a major river.

Are we actually worried about the volume of the sound, or just the volume of the complaints?

Warped Tour has been held at the Fairgrounds in the past, not Welcome to Rockville. 

What is being ignored by some posters, is that the last Welcome to Rockville event had a max sound measurement of 70 dBA which was under the legal limit set forth in the existing ordinance... so, in fact the concert was within the legal guidelines.

While we are banning things, a horn from a train woke me up at 4AM this morning (true story).  I usually get up at 5AM, however b/c of the train horn... I woke up early and couldnt go back to sleep, therfore losing an hour of precious rest.  My productivity has been vastly compromised which in turn affects my ability to earn an honest living and thereby feed my family.  I demand COJ ban train horns and compensate me for this egregious violation of my rights b/c trains obviously aren't family friendly.

I also want the upcoming Country Superfest scrutinized with a fine toothed comb decibal meter b/c singing about marital struggles in country music songs is also not family friendly and I will not stand for it!  My children should only know that a marriage functions with excellence 100% of the time.  What kind of family values are we teaching our children if we tell them that sometimes, mommy and daddy have to work on their relationship?!? 


The City is spending a little over $100k to study stage and speaker configurations that would minimize noise impacts at MetroPark.  Seems prudent that Council should wait on those findings before doing anything.

^Well said, Field.

Locomotives are exempted from the existing noise ordinance.  Railroads evidently have a stronger lobbying force than Rock 105.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 02, 2013, 10:22:19 AM
While we are banning things, a horn from a train woke me up at 4AM this morning (true story).  I usually get up at 5AM, however b/c of the train horn... I woke up early and couldnt go back to sleep, therfore losing an hour of precious rest.  My productivity has been vastly compromised which in turn affects my ability to earn an honest living and thereby feed my family.  I demand COJ ban train horns and compensate me for this egregious violation of my rights b/c trains obviously aren't family friendly.

don't joke,...this is a problem in many communities and they work with the freight railroads on mitigation measures....in fact, several neighborhoods in south Florida are now concerned about the increased horns from the All Aboard Florida trains...they are pushing their communities to install gates at all crossings so the horn blowing can be minimized.

Obviously you missed the sarcasm.

I hear train horns at all hours of the day and night (sometimes, if the wind is right they shake my bedroom windows). I hear the horn raising the Ortega River Bridge all the time.  When the fireworks go off like they did Friday and Saturday, my dog got scared.  Niether of these things are worth complaining about and getting politicians to ban them.

At the last Welcome to Rockville concert, the person measuring sound levels noted that ambient noise from nearby birds actually registered higher decibel levels than the concert across the river.  His words, not mine.

Yet, one concert is grounds for a HUGE resource like Metro Park to be left to sit dormant?  When will we learn that it's probably better to stop ignoring what we already have instead of talking about Aquariams and a boat that is on the verge of becoming an artificial reef (which may actually get more use as a reef)?

In the late '90's, the last time the noise from the Park was an issue, I stood on the bulkhead on the riverbank in St. Nicholas and measured 92dba from the sound of the music coming from the football stadium.  That level over a period of time will cause damage to your ears.  You could not carry on a conversation with someone standing next to you.

I measured over 75dba in a neighbor's bedroom.  That's louder than an average city street with traffic going by.

Conditions were perfect for sound propagation; there were low clouds, a light wind from the West and no ripples on the water.

Sound walls don't work over that distance either.  They only throw a sound shadow a fairly small multiple of their height.  A 20' high sound wall only protects about 200 feet beyond it.

The residents of San Marco and St. Nicholas are not asking for silence.  They are just asking not to be unable to talk or hear their television sets inside their own homes for hours on end.  Just the right to "quiet enjoyment" of their residences like everybody else.

That's fine... so then what is the problem with these measured figures?

QuoteWhat is being ignored by some posters, is that the last Welcome to Rockville event had a max sound measurement of 70 dBA which was under the legal limit set forth in the existing ordinance... so, in fact the concert was within the legal guidelines.

QuoteAt the last Welcome to Rockville concert, the person measuring sound levels noted that ambient noise from nearby birds actually registered higher decibel levels than the concert across the river.  His words, not mine.

Seems like at any given time, birds being birds in nearby trees were louder than the concert across the river.  A concert in which the promoter reconfigured the stage and brought in some sound attenuatoin measures.

Sounds like there maybe a workable solution somewhere in there where the venue can finally be used to its potential instead of Jacksonville missing the cash machines going instead to St Augustine, Tampa and West Palm Beach instead? 

I'll bet a good acoustic engineer could come up with a speaker configuration that would eliminate the problem of sound projecting across the river without reducing the concert experience.  But then each act would have to agree to use that particular sound system rather than using their own.  Would they agree to do that?

I'm sure there is a good solution that would not involve everyone in the audience wearing radio headphones.  Although I'd travel to see such a concert; everyone gyrating and waving in total silence.   ;D

I think hypocrisy is by far more obscene than some effin' cuss word.

A modern amphitheater would definitely be able to control sound projection better than the open bandshell that's there now. That's something that should have been built in the 90s and we should look into again. In the meantime, though, we shouldn't invent ways to *not* have events in Jacksonville just to appease a few. Determine reasonable measures for sound levels and time, stand by them and then step back.

The 12/2/13 PHS Public, Health and Safety Committee meeting was all about
N
O
I
S
E
I was there for another issue but the marked agenda had defer for item 2. 2013-676 but at the discretion of the chair Kimberly Daniels it was opened up and a PHS Amendment was voted on and approved 4-0  and will move forward in the process.
The two hometown concert promoters were in the house and that was about it.

To councilwoman Daniel's credit she did recognize and allowed Public Comment before the committee vote. Two people spoke. I reminded everyone about our new DIA and CRA and please consider all these other expanded entertainment zones as we tell everyone to VISIT JACKSONVILLE! Especially from our river- Yeah right!

Councilman Redman emerged from upstairs and entered the conversation. Remember it was deferred on the marked agenda. Councilwoman Daniels in a comment to Mr. Redman said " you didn't open a can of worms it was termites."

The DIA joint subcommittee meeting has now been moved to the first floor of the Ed Ball building at 4pm on 12/6/13.  Bring your egg nogg. I'm sure we'll be using Uber and maybe Super Uber.

A new Authority
Embrace It
Or
it will Embrace Us

Quote from: Tacachale on December 02, 2013, 02:22:29 PM
A modern amphitheater would definitely be able to control sound projection better than the open bandshell that's there now. That's something that should have been built in the 90s and we should look into again. In the meantime, though, we shouldn't invent ways to *not* have events in Jacksonville just to appease a few. Determine reasonable measures for sound levels and time, stand by them and then step back.

+1

I seem to remember from a previous thread about this that when the current stage, ETC was built, there was a big outcry and that stopped the real amphitheater from being built, I assume because of the noise issues. It seems it was one of those watch what you wish for issues.  By stopping what should have been built, you ended up with a bigger issue.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 02, 2013, 12:32:19 PM
That's fine... so then what is the problem with these measured figures?

QuoteWhat is being ignored by some posters, is that the last Welcome to Rockville event had a max sound measurement of 70 dBA which was under the legal limit set forth in the existing ordinance... so, in fact the concert was within the legal guidelines.

QuoteAt the last Welcome to Rockville concert, the person measuring sound levels noted that ambient noise from nearby birds actually registered higher decibel levels than the concert across the river.  His words, not mine.

Seems like at any given time, birds being birds in nearby trees were louder than the concert across the river.  A concert in which the promoter reconfigured the stage and brought in some sound attenuatoin measures.

Sounds like there maybe a workable solution somewhere in there where the venue can finally be used to its potential instead of Jacksonville missing the cash machines going instead to St Augustine, Tampa and West Palm Beach instead? 

Yes, those who do not like something, like Welcome to Rockville, will of course ignore the facts when those facts do not support their desires.  How many of us "put up" with a few parties every year where your neighbor has the family over and the music is a bit too loud and the kids make noise all day and night?  Do you complain to the city about them?  Or do you say it is OK, because they are good neighbors 363 days of the year and so live with it ( or get yourself invited so you can enjoy the fun too?) Heck, Welcome to Rockville was over early and so the neighbor's Gator Bowl party that went on until the wee hours was actually a bigger problem than Rockville would have been.

Perspective is everything.  This certainly seems like a problem that could be brought into proper perspective simply by taking a few more simple precautions to control the noise rather than throwing out another revenue stream for Jacksonville.

My sympathy meter dropped to zero on this issue when I saw the noise figures that, and mind you this is outside and the residents are inside their houses, wound up being less than the level of ambient road noise, and several of the testers (hired at city expense of course...because as usual complainers never use their own money) said that the ambient background noise and birds chirping were actually louder than the concert at their monitoring stations.

At this point it's an obvious political football, for what reason, or what the hidden issue is, I don't know. Knowing the way things work around here somebody's brother in law probably runs the amphitheater in saint Augustine, where all our entertainment has been going because they're welcomed there. For what it's worth, Saint Augustine has been actively courting welcome to rockville, if they pull out what else is left at metro park? It's going to be a dead venue may as well just pull the plug and call it a day.

What we have is a situation that pits out commitment to actually having events downtown against our commitment to appeasing whatever the loudest voice is. There should be one place in the city where we can have big outdoor events, and if Downtown's not that place, I don't know what is. If we listened to every complaint, there would be literally nowhere to do them.

Initially, Metro Park was to be where the Landing is, then because of objections from Ortega, of all places, it was moved down to the sight by Channel 7, which was on land acquired by Urban Renewal funds from the federal government in the late 60s. It was the early venue for Jacksonville and all that jazz which had been removed from Mayport because of Navy concerns.
Perhaps a wall made of water fountains at the water's edge would cut down the noise, or perhaps a bowl facing away from the water, White noise might stop the concern of the people across the river.

Anyone else see that the 2014 Welcome to Rockville website now redirects to a "Fort Rock" in Ft. Meyers that is on the same day Rockville was scheduled for?

I haven't read the previous posts, but here's my take on the Metropolitan Park issue.
It seems to me that Met Park is an excellent spot for a concert venue. Central location, waterfront access, plenty of parking, and in a designated entertainment district; a clear jewel in downtown's crown. The negatives? Just a few NIMBY's across the water. I understand their concerns, but there'll always be that contingent. That said, I would like to see Met Park promoted, but there's a wrinkle. My understanding is that land was donated by the National Park service on conditions. It was meant to be a "peoples" park, with no more than 12 ticketed events per year. A deal is a deal. Mayor Delaney tried to extract concessions out of the Park Service, in his bid to develop the park as a premier amphitheater, but to no avail. Based upon these circumstances, Met Park could never be commercially viable on only 12 ticketed events per year. Let's be glad we have the park for what it's initial purpose was, a park open to the public and for free events, along with a few ticket-required events per year. Noise restrictions be damned!

QuoteI seem to remember from a previous thread about this that when the current stage, ETC was built, there was a big outcry and that stopped the real amphitheater from being built, I assume because of the noise issues.

No, the current park, tent and stage had been in place for years before the last amphitheater proposal raised its head.  They wanted to tear down what was there and build a much bigger venue.  One of the excuses was that the tent was getting old and worn.  That was in 1997 and it is still going strong.

What is going on now is nothing to what the problems would have been if that backdoor deal boondoggle had been built. 

QuoteJust a few NIMBY's across the water.

More like a couple of hundred.  Sound travels across water for incredible distances without diminishing much.

The Park is simply the wrong location for a rock concert venue.

What if we build a new convention center with a concert venue as part of the exhibit space?  A double use facility would make even more economic sense. 

A "couple of hundred" NIMBY's versus the majority of the city who wanted the amphitheater, and an outdated, third rate bandshell versus a modern concert amphitheater. Great tradeoff - for St. Augustine. And now we should reduce the usefulness of the park even more by instituting even more onerous restrictions? We shouldn't be bending over backwards to make sure events don't come to Jacksonville.

An example of what a more progressive city does:

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2013/8/27/dean_unveils_riverfront_amphitheater_parks_plan

Sounds like people live near the planned amphitheater and they're excited by the announcement.  Do we want to be a sleepy town or a vibrant city?

Sleepy town apparently.

No matter what is decided, the Mayor, you know the one who has a spotlight or camera on him at all times, does not seem to want to care to make this an issue. You know, the one everyone else voted for.

Is the City marketing Metro Park to the types of tours that St. Augustine Amphitheater is marketing to?

Who exactly is in charge of booking the tours for the City?

When you go to COJ.net and search for Metropolitan Park  the following shows up at the top of the list.

http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/jedc-information/events/all-events/metropolitan-park-walking-tour.aspx

again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

So therefore, we ought to get the 12 ticketed events at least?

Quote from: kbhanson3 on December 03, 2013, 04:00:51 PM
An example of what a more progressive city does:

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2013/8/27/dean_unveils_riverfront_amphitheater_parks_plan

Sounds like people live near the planned amphitheater and they're excited by the announcement.  Do we want to be a sleepy town or a vibrant city?

Sad how you never hear the kind of kudos for Jacksonville's mayor as the posters in Nashville on this article. It takes so much more than a "no new taxes" pledge to be a great mayor.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 03, 2013, 03:03:54 PM

QuoteI seem to remember from a previous thread about this that when the current stage, ETC was built, there was a big outcry and that stopped the real amphitheater from being built, I assume because of the noise issues.

No, the current park, tent and stage had been in place for years before the last amphitheater proposal raised its head.  They wanted to tear down what was there and build a much bigger venue.  One of the excuses was that the tent was getting old and worn.  That was in 1997 and it is still going strong.

What is going on now is nothing to what the problems would have been if that backdoor deal boondoggle had been built. 

So, the park has been there for how many years in its current configuration?  And in about 1997 ish, a proposal to build a bigger and therefore better stage set up was proposed and fought down?  Does that mean that rather than figure out a better system then, the residents decided to live with the noise issues cause by the existing arrangement?  The noise issues have been around since the park was set up, why is it an issue today?  It is not like noise has decided to travel differently in the last couple of decades. Because a few no longer like Rock music?  It seems that the 1997 ish deal was a missed opportunity to build a better park and take care of some of the noise issues and the community elected not to take that opportunity?  Why should their voice now count more that what is best for the rest of Jacksonville?

Twelve (12) ticketed events only per year.  And one or two of them can't be Rock?  Starting to sound like the fifties when they were censoring Elvis.   I'm an older guy and I went to Welcome to Rockville and was looking forward to going to more of them.  Seems not too likely unless I want to drive to some other city.

Quote from: sheclown on December 03, 2013, 06:22:32 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

So therefore, we ought to get the 12 ticketed events at least?

Sure....but keep in mind the boat show, world of nations, funk fest, and the two existing rock festivals all count.

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 07:46:41 PM

Quote from: sheclown on December 03, 2013, 06:22:32 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

So therefore, we ought to get the 12 ticketed events at least?

Sure....but keep in mind the boat show, world of nations, funk fest, and the two existing rock festivals all count.

So in other words, per usual, Jacksonville just redefined the term when it didn't work out?

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

According to the T-U it was the Nat'l Park Service. Maybe it could be renegotiated if an alternate new park site downtown was offered up in exchange.

I don't think the city worries too much about following the rules.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on December 03, 2013, 08:28:12 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 03, 2013, 05:14:09 PM
again, for the umpteenth time....when the land was turned over to the City there was an agreement to no more than 12 ticketed events a year....so no, Met park can't be marketed like the St. Aug Amphitheater without changes to the agreement with the State of Florida

According to the T-U it was the Nat'l Park Service. Maybe it could be renegotiated if an alternate new park site downtown was offered up in exchange.

To do so, the City would have to pay back the money used to acquire and build the property (something under $2mm, WJCT paid for a portion of the original construction as well) and designate a replacement site for the park.

The amphitheater proposed in the late 90's would have been much worse, not better than what is there now.  Bigger raised stage with a sound reflecting back wall to protect the downtown area, but project more sound across the river.  Much larger seating capacity.  52 proposed events per year, i.e. one each weekend.

I don't know what the sound situation is like now since I don't live there anymore, but the rock events held in the football arena and Metro Park in the '90's were truly horrible to the residents of St. Nicholas and San Marco.  They went on until after midnight and you could not carry on a conversation INSIDE your own house for hundreds of feet from the river. 

From what I have been reading it seems that things are better now, but could still be improved.

Thank goodness those NIMBYs were there to protect the rest of the metro area from more events downtown, a better facility, and modern sound dampening measures rather than just aiming giant speakers forward. And thank goodness they're now inventing ways to reduce even the use it does get. Again, it's all great news - for St. Augustine.

Quote from: Tacachale on December 04, 2013, 01:50:46 PM
Thank goodness those NIMBYs were there to protect the rest of the metro area from more events downtown, a better facility, and modern sound dampening measures rather than just aiming giant speakers forward. And thank goodness they're now inventing ways to reduce even the use it does get. Again, it's all great news - for St. Augustine.

I'm proud to have been one of those NIMBY's and an effective one.  Dick Suddath and I put up the money to hire a lawyer who dug enough records out of city hall to expose the backroom deal that had been done with the amphitheater developers.  Delany had the choice of seeing Rick Mullaney charged with violation of the public records laws and possible disbarment or dropping the prearranged deal so he dropped it.

Stephen, I will be happy to lend you my copy of the "Handbook of Environmental Acoustics" a textbook by Dr. James P. Cowan.  It has some dense formulas about how sound propagates under different conditions including across water.  Wind, temperature, clouds, frequency of the sounds all affect it too.  It gets really complicated and the math is tough, but Dr. Cowan's diagrams are very clear so the concepts are easy to understand.  Sound does funny things.  It can be very quiet near the source and boom out further away from the source under some conditions.

I bought the book and a decibel meter as a part of trying to understand the amphitheater proposal.  Having accurate information really ticked off the developers at some of the public hearings.  They got caught telling lies in public and frequently exposed their ignorance of acoustic engineering.  They had no sound control measures as part of their design either but kept offering up ridiculous proposals that would not have worked when the push back started.  One of them was for a two hundred foot wall at the riverfront. That drew laughter from the people in the meeting including the Mayor.

Much better to have had the concerts go to St. Augustine than have the monster that was proposed in the middle of our city.  Perhaps a properly designed speaker system and other sound control measures can be put in place, if they are not already in place, to reduce the impact.

From the reports during the last concerts it seems that something is working pretty well.

^Yeah, not really. There was no "backroom deal" or violation of public records laws. It was entirely an issue of trying to hammer out a deal with the feds while some NIMBYs fought to obstruct the process at every step, despite the wishes of the majority of the city.  But hey, St. Augustine is grateful that we continue to invent ways not to have concerts in our city.

QuoteMuch better to have had the concerts go to St. Augustine than have the monster that was proposed in the middle of our city.

Sorry, but this is exactly the kind of sentiment that holds Jacksonville back.

^Pretty much. If you can't have this type of stuff downtown, then what's the point of trying to make the place a vibrant 24/7 environment.

Small town thinking people. Move out if you don't like it. I live in Springfield and hear things all the time. Do I get annoyed, sometimes yes, but I get over it because I chose to live in the center of a city. Stop holding back our City.

The St. Augustine Amphitheater is in very close proximity to residential neighborhoods both to the south and to the west.  Do those residents complain of noise as well?  That amphitheater is somewhat dug into the ground (or at least it seems to be) so perhaps that helps with the noise.  Could that not be an option for Met Park.  St. Augustine has tons of shows-including rock but I'm not aware of a high level of complaints by nearby residents.  Perhaps it could serve as a model.

I was there.  There were both violations of the public records laws and a backroom agreement.  We got inside City Hall tips that specific documents were being withheld by Mr. Mullaney so those specific documents were requested and disclosed.  They revealed the backroom agreement.  Dick Suddath died a few months ago which is a real loss to the community, but Sid Ansbacher and I are still here and remember.

I think Mayor Delaney, who is an honorable man, was blindsided too.

Quote from: fsujax on December 05, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Small town thinking people. Move out if you don't like it. I live in Springfield and hear things all the time. Do I get annoyed, sometimes yes, but I get over it because I chose to live in the center of a city. Stop holding back our City.

For real. While we're at it, why don't we just move the Amtrak station out of the city to the middle of nowhere? Oh, we did that? How about putting parking nazis on every corner so no one wants to come downtown at all for anything? We did that too?? OK, what about making downtown laws so toxic & full of red tape that no one wants to open up a business there? What's that you say?? Hmm, what about making Met Park so void of life that it looks like a scene from a horror movie? Well, son of a biscuit eater!

That's the ticket, guys. Keep pushing things outta downtown & wondering why it stinks. It's truly like some of these people have never seen a real downtown before in their entire lives. Plain & simple, stop holding back progress. DT needs all the things it can get. If you dont like it, move the hell out. You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

QuoteYou have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

Stephen,  there was an order of  magnitude of difference between what you could hear from the games, an occasional roar from the crowd, the jazz festival and the rock concerts that were held in the stadium at the time.  The faint sounds of happy music from the fair were even pleasant. Yes, we could even hear that, but it didn't make the glass buzz in our windows like the rock concerts did.

There was NO plan to control the sound from the proposed amphitheater in any fashion except for a back stage wall; trees, berms, etc. were nowhere to be seen.  Couldn't put it in a big pit and cover it like the one in St. Augustine either.  That's a good design for sound control but difficult to reproduce on fill dirt.

The 1997 amphitheater proposal was like Godzilla coming to town.  It would have killed everything close to it; downtown, the crossriver neighborhoods and the Southbank.  All residents would have left downtown.  There were even lawsuits going on in the towns where these monsters had been built at the time for quality of life issues.  Norfolk maybe? 

To suggest that the fate of downtown is contingent on having an outdoor rock concert venue is laughable.  I've been in vibrant downtowns across the country from Portland to Asheville and they are not dependent on rock concerts.

Build a new convention center with a concert venue inside.  Return Amtrack to Union Station.  Uproot the parking meters.  Connect downtown to the traditional streetcar suburbs with new streetcars and THEN you will see downtown come alive again.

It's "transit oriented development" not noise oriented development.

You can still today hear the Jaguars games, Monster Truck and Motocross rallies, and the Gator Bowl just as clearly from the front porch of our transition house at 9th & Phoenix as if you were right in the parking lot tailgating. The residents there can also hear the Jazz Festival music and Rockville music. So to say there is a marked difference between a well planned amphitheater and the stadium is kind of ridiculous.

And to DogWalker, I can understand and respect that you must stand up for now what you stood for 10 years ago.  But clearly, based on the actual reports of those who've lived or tested sound in the area since you've left clearly show that the situation has changed and must be reevaluated. You cannot really argue your point on 10-15 year old facts.

I am not qualified to have an opinion of what the situation is now with the noise from the park and have tried not to represent that I did.  I haven't lived there since 2006 and now live in a much noisier environment which doesn't bother me a bit since it is urban noise, not loud music into the wee hours of the morning.  FYI, I live within 100 yards of the I-95/I-10 interchange and like to have my windows open.  My hearing is still good too.

From this thread's reports it seems that things are much better than they were a decade and a half ago, but I will stand by my opinion that we dodged a major bullet by torpedoing the proposed amphitheater.

I also have the opinion, slightly better informed, that with modern acoustical engineering and careful regulation, rock concerts could be held at Metro Park without major problems with the neighbors in any direction.  I am also not sure if the performers and promoters would be willing to live with the engineering and other restrictions having absolutely no knowledge of the music concert business.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 04:39:11 PM

QuoteYou have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I hear you, but the same could be said about Riverside, King, Avondale, etc because urban blight was in full effect & many of the core areas were essentially left for dead. And we hear the same types of complaints from all over the core areas now that things are actually starting to look up. Should we inhibit progress because of a small minority of vocal naysayers who remembers these times doesn't want things to change?

You may not always agree on the type of progress that happens, but its progress nonetheless & should be welcomed, not shunned & ran out of town. Like I said, Downtown needs all it can get.

DW... your issue seems to be focused on the genre of music.  You seem to not mind the "Happy music" of the fair or the Jazz concerts... or even the "urban noise" of I-10 and I-95 with your windows open.  Perhaps it is just me... but it seems you would be OK with Met park if they would just ban rock type music...

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 04:39:11 PM

QuoteYou have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I'm not sure these places (outside of 19th century Empire Point) were quiet areas when early 20th century residents moved in. Beach was a railroad, the FEC had a huge yard between San Marco and St. Nicholas and there were at least two major shipyards and a power plant in the immediate vicinity.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 06, 2013, 06:55:06 AM
DW... your issue seems to be focused on the genre of music.  You seem to not mind the "Happy music" of the fair or the Jazz concerts... or even the "urban noise" of I-10 and I-95 with your windows open.  Perhaps it is just me... but it seems you would be OK with Met park if they would just ban rock type music...

BT, It wasn't the genre of the music as my collection shows, but the VOLUME of the music.  A Bach cantata played at that volume would be just as bad maybe worse.  Rock music doesn't have violins. 

Music of any kind is also different from other sounds in the environment.  It is not random, it is not continuous and it is designed to catch and hold your attention.  Even "elevator music" is difficult to ignore.

Lake, with the exception of the train horns (also designed to get attention), and you know how popular they are, there was nothing in the area that ever made a sound as loud as the concerts in the stadium.

At least the train horns don't go on for hours.  When the shipyards were open we would also get blasts from the ship's horns that would shake the windows and make the dogs bark.  But, ten seconds and it was over. I actually miss the sound of the tugboat's peanut whistles.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 11:09:53 AM
I was there.  There were both violations of the public records laws and a backroom agreement.  We got inside City Hall tips that specific documents were being withheld by Mr. Mullaney so those specific documents were requested and disclosed.  They revealed the backroom agreement.  Dick Suddath died a few months ago which is a real loss to the community, but Sid Ansbacher and I are still here and remember.

I think Mayor Delaney, who is an honorable man, was blindsided too.

I was there too. Regardless of how your lawyer sold it to you, were no violations of any law and it certainly wasn't the reason the project was abandoned. Again, the real reason was the difficulty of negotiating with the feds while some complainers fought to obstruct it at every turn.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 05:08:54 PM

There was NO plan to control the sound from the proposed amphitheater in any fashion except for a back stage wall; trees, berms, etc. were nowhere to be seen.  Couldn't put it in a big pit and cover it like the one in St. Augustine either.  That's a good design for sound control but difficult to reproduce on fill dirt.

It's not really a shocker that final plans weren't in place before the city even had possession of the land it would be built on. However, there definitely were going to be noise control measures, and a modern, purpose-built venue would have had much better control than just setting up a bunch of huge speakers and pointing them forward, which is what we have now. And of course, there's no actual evidence that the concerts we have now actually go over the line. That's why the complainers want to change the regulations.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 05:08:54 PM

The 1997 amphitheater proposal was like Godzilla coming to town.  It would have killed everything close to it; downtown, the crossriver neighborhoods and the Southbank.  All residents would have left downtown.  There were even lawsuits going on in the towns where these monsters had been built at the time for quality of life issues.  Norfolk maybe? 

To suggest that the fate of downtown is contingent on having an outdoor rock concert venue is laughable.  I've been in vibrant downtowns across the country from Portland to Asheville and they are not dependent on rock concerts.

If we're talking about what's "laughable", let's talk about the idea that a venue that drew thousands of people on a routine basis would have "killed everything close to it".

Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2013, 07:44:43 AM

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 05, 2013, 04:39:11 PM

QuoteYou have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I'm not sure these places (outside of 19th century Empire Point) were quiet areas when early 20th century residents moved in. Beach was a railroad, the FEC had a huge yard between San Marco and St. Nicholas and there were at least two major shipyards and a power plant in the immediate vicinity.

Yeah, they weren't "quiet" when they were starting to get built up by the railroads and the ship building industry.  It's disappointing that we're make decisions based on the perceived level of activity when the Old City was at its lowest point. Although honestly, between the highway noise, trains, and sound from the events we do have, these neighborhoods aren't even really "quiet suburban areas" now. It definitely seems to be a matter of what kinds of noise is being made.

This is the kind of thing that pits our desire to have an active downtown against our desire to not rock the boat. Unfortunately, downtown vibrancy is going to require rocking the boat a bit.

from the Times Union section B-6, Saturday, December 14, 2013:

The St. Augustine Amphitheater broke the 100,000 ticket mark this year for the first time. So far in 2013, the concert venue has sold 100,146 tickets to 38 events. The rest of the events scheduled this month are FREE. This broke the record of 84,000 set last year.

Sharp stick in the eye to Jacksonville for losing out on all this revenue and JOBS!  ::)

I have not been to the St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Does anyone know if it is close to homes?  I heard it was not.  Perhaps the answer is to find a location in Jacksonville away from residents.

Is Met Park any louder than Everbank Field? It's a bad idea to remove live performance venues out of DT, IMO. I think the ultimate answer is to build a real facility.

Quote from: Kay on December 14, 2013, 11:06:42 AM
I have not been to the St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Does anyone know if it is close to homes?  I heard it was not.  Perhaps the answer is to find a location in Jacksonville away from residents.

There are homes across the street.

thelakelander, I agree with you. Time for a new facility designed for the concerts of today. When in ATL a couple weeks ago, I noticed a new amphitheatre on the far northside, near Northpoint Mall. A highly residential area, but centered near where a lot of people live. I know this is not DT, but to me an ideal location would be across JTB from UNF. This area is still undeveloped and a proper design could make noise pollution to future development minimal. With JTB, 95, 295 all close, access from most of the city would be good. Just a thought.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
Is Met Park any louder than Everbank Field? It's a bad idea to remove live performance venues out of DT, IMO. I think the ultimate answer is to build a real facility.

I keep saying; build a facility in or connected to a new convention center, but build it INSIDE.  Why does everybody seem to want these events outside, exposed to the weather?  It isn't necessary to move it out of downtown, just put a roof and walls around it.  Problem solved.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 14, 2013, 11:38:39 AM

Quote from: Kay on December 14, 2013, 11:06:42 AM
I have not been to the St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Does anyone know if it is close to homes?  I heard it was not.  Perhaps the answer is to find a location in Jacksonville away from residents.

There are homes across the street.

And they have a very firm curfew (don't know when it is, but it seems to be enforced).  Don't know if they have decibel limits.  A great venue.

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 14, 2013, 12:59:40 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
Is Met Park any louder than Everbank Field? It's a bad idea to remove live performance venues out of DT, IMO. I think the ultimate answer is to build a real facility.

I keep saying; build a facility in or connected to a new convention center, but build it INSIDE.  Why does everybody seem to want these events outside, exposed to the weather?  It isn't necessary to move it out of downtown, just put a roof and walls around it.  Problem solved.

Then you don't have an amphitheater, you have a concert hall, or arena ... kinda like those buildings on A. Phillip Randolf or on Water Street, or Forsyth Street.

do we really need to move something else out of the urban core?

^No. Moving things out of the core that attract people from all over, goes against the general idea of DT revitalization.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2013, 04:09:18 PM
^No. Moving things out of the core that attract people from all over, goes against the general idea of DT revitalization.

+1,000

QuoteIs Met Park any louder than Everbank Field? It's a bad idea to remove live performance venues out of DT, IMO. I think the ultimate answer is to build a real facility.

Holy hole in a donut batman, if we move music anywhere we will need the Potato Cart trucks, Holy Hole on that one. What will happen then? OMG!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 14, 2013, 03:14:45 PM

Quote from: Dog Walker on December 14, 2013, 12:59:40 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
Is Met Park any louder than Everbank Field? It's a bad idea to remove live performance venues out of DT, IMO. I think the ultimate answer is to build a real facility.

I keep saying; build a facility in or connected to a new convention center, but build it INSIDE.  Why does everybody seem to want these events outside, exposed to the weather?  It isn't necessary to move it out of downtown, just put a roof and walls around it.  Problem solved.

Then you don't have an amphitheater, you have a concert hall, or arena ... kinda like those buildings on A. Phillip Randolf or on Water Street, or Forsyth Street.

Again, why must it be an amphitheater?  What's wrong with having the concerts inside?  What am I missing here?

The St. Augustine Amphitheater is built in a hole in the ground, something not possible at Metro Park.  It is not on the water.  It has a solid roof over the stage and partial roof over the seats.  All of these design features as well as being surrounded by trees and having a strict curfew (11:00PM ?) keep it from being the huge pain-in-the- ear that the concerts in Metropolitan Park create.

Walls and roofs are new technology?

I still think my idea of having everyone wear radio connected headphones with the sound beamed to them would be fun to watch.

I know Mtrain  ;) may believe this isn't applicable because Jaxons are a unique human species but other communities have dealt with this issue before. Instead of relying on the Don Redmans of our council to make sound decisions, it may not hurt to check out the result of other community's solutions for residents who have ears attached to their heads. For example, Raleigh just built a real downtown amphitheater a few years ago. There's more residential in closer proximity to it than anything near Met Park. It could be looked at as a case study for deciding if further investment in a real outdoor venue at Met Park is a viable option.

Amphitheaters are a comparatively inexpensive and easy way to draw considerable activity, much more so than building an entire building. If you're looking at, say, a 5000-seat venue, building a new building is going to be pretty costly to build and maintain, with the need for insulation, HVAC, etc. Outdoor concerts are also a different experience, certainly different than most of what's offered in our area (besides driving all the way down to Anastasia Island to go to concerts Jax has missed). We do need more venues of all kinds, so an indoor, mid-large venue would be a good addition, but it would seem to be an expensive, somewhat redundant option, as we have multiple similar facilities already. And besides, it's not really on the table anyway.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 14, 2013, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on December 14, 2013, 11:38:39 AM

Quote from: Kay on December 14, 2013, 11:06:42 AM
I have not been to the St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Does anyone know if it is close to homes?  I heard it was not.  Perhaps the answer is to find a location in Jacksonville away from residents.

There are homes across the street.

And they have a very firm curfew (don't know when it is, but it seems to be enforced).  Don't know if they have decibel limits.  A great venue.

Yes, the homes by the St. Augustine Amphitheater are directly across the street, not half a mile a way across a major river. The amphitheater is also only about 2 miles from St. Augustine's downtown. In Jax, you'd have to go pretty far away to get something that's not near any homes. As in, you'd be moving events out of the urban core entirely to appease a few.

If you let the city leaders have their way, they will build an amphitheater at the Equestrian Center, way out near Baldwin.  Good luck getting public transportation to there.

QuoteFor example, Raleigh just built a real downtown amphitheater a few years ago. There's more residential in closer proximity to it than anything near Met Park. It could be looked at as a case study for deciding if further investment in a real outdoor venue at Met Park is a viable option.

Lake - Great for Raleigh, they may be more progressive than Jacksonville, but you need to convince the City Council, not me how great Raleigh is and how Jax can be JUST LIKE RALEIGH, with some thought. Lunacy yes, but a Equestrian Center solution affects the least amount of people. Watch for it to be high on the list of options, unless someone from the Council sacrifices themselves for a downtown spot.

It's not about being like Raleigh, so there's no need to convince anyone how great some other place is or how we should be just like them. It's about learning from other people's experiences and applying lessons learned to your own landscape. No need to recreate the wheel because it wasn't invented locally.

Here's an interesting article about plans to better integrate Merriweather Post Pavilion (Baltimore/Washington area) with surrounding downtown Columbia

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/in-columbia-lofty-plans-for-merriweather-park/2013/12/08/2c2782ce-5b98-11e3-a49b-90a0e156254b_story.html

Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2013, 04:09:18 PM
^No. Moving things out of the core that attract people from all over, goes against the general idea of DT revitalization.

ummmm YES