QuoteThe incredible shrinking city
Youngstown, Ohio has long been on the decline and now is being hit by the foreclosure crisis. Its answer: Razing abandoned buildings and tearing up streets.
YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio (CNNMoney.com) -- Youngstown, Ohio, has seen its population shrink by more than half over the past 40 years, leaving behind huge swaths of empty homes, streets and neighborhoods.
Now, in a radical move, the city - which has suffered since the steel industry left town and jobs dried up - is bulldozing abandoned buildings and tearing up blighted streets, converting entire blocks into open green spaces. More than 1,000 structures have been demolished so far.
Under the initiative, dubbed Plan 2010, city officials are also monitoring thinly-populated blocks. When only one or two occupied homes remain, the city offers incentives - up to $50,000 in grants - for those home owners to move, so that the entire area can be razed. The city will save by cutting back on services like garbage pick-ups and street lighting in deserted areas.
"When I grew up in the 1950s, the city was at its peak," said Father Ed Noga, who heads St. Patrick's on Youngstown's South Side. "There were kids everywhere and everyone converged on downtown. You went to eat, to shop and to go to the movies."
Today downtown is positively sleepy and even somewhat derelict. Residents have to drive out of town to shop for clothes or housewares. And while foreclosures have long been a scourge in this city, they have recently skyrocketed along with the rest of the country, up 178% in February from a year ago.
"Abandoned houses here are like rainfall in the spring," said Mayor Jay Williams, "That has gone on for decades."
Growth strategy failed
For a while, Youngstown, with its population at just over 80,000, hoped to return to its boomtown roots, when 165,000 residents called it home.
"We long pursued a policy of growth," said the city's energetic young mayor. "We went after all these things that would make Youngstown a city of 150,000 again."
There were some harebrained schemes.
"A blimp factory was going to put the city back on the map," Williams said. "That represents a whole lot of the promises made and broken. They sound ridiculous now. President Clinton promised a defense facility employing 5,000. We were waiting for a savior."
They never got one. But now, Youngstown's infrastructure-paring strategy may yet become a model for other Rust-Belt cities that must recreate themselves after years of decline.
Already, delegations from smaller, post-industrial cities like Flint, Mich.; Wheeling, W.Va.; and Dayton, Ohio, have come to Youngstown to study the plan.
"We're one of the first cities of significant size in the United States to embrace shrinkage," said Williams.
It's an odd way to pioneer. "The American narrative always includes growth," said Hunter Morrison, Director of the Center for Urban and Regional Studies at Youngstown State University, which works closely with the city on plan 2010's implementation. "No one wants to talk about shrinkage. That's too threatening to politicians, civic boosters and Chambers of Commerce."
The demolitions can yield stark contrasts. In many neighborhoods, blocks have more empty lots than buildings.
Glory days
Even wealthy neighborhoods, like the North Side historic district, where mill owners and upper management once congregated, have eyesores.
On one corner, there sits a beautifully maintained seven-bedroom Tudor, yet down a side street, a wood-framed colonial is boarded up. Next door, an empty Victorian sits moldering, the wood of its window frames scorched. Lines of old hedges mark the lot boundaries where once-proud homes.
Youngstown used to be the nation's third largest steel producer; its mill workers earned among the highest factory wages in America. Demand for their services was strong.
"You could graduate from high school one day and start work in the mills the next," said Noga.
That changed on Sept. 19, 1977 - Black Monday - when Youngstown Sheet and Tube abruptly closed its doors.
"Five thousand people showed up for work one day and were turned away," said Phil Kidd, Downtown Director of Events and Special Projects for the city.
"The city lost its heart and soul," said Mayor Williams.
Within years, all the mills vanished. Noga recalls seeing idled workers watching as one of the oldest blast furnaces in the valley was dynamited. "I saw these hard men, shot-and-a-beer guys, standing there crying," he said.
The city's East Side stands as a totem to Youngstown's glory days. This mostly empty land was readied for development just after World War II - when streets, water and sewer service, signs and utility poles were installed.
But growth never came, and that makes for some strange city streetscapes today. There are few occupied homes and unkempt woodlands have taken over. There's at least one 10-acre farm and many other large fields.
Some dead-end streets are already uninhabitated and torn up, their outlets blocked with concrete barriers. Many roads are pitted and potholed; drivers have to slalom slowly through or face axle-busting jolts. Lonely water hydrants look woefully out of place sitting on the sides of rural-looking roads.
Today, a new spirit seems to have taken hold. Phil Kidd started the Web site Defend Youngstown, and said he hears from tons of former residents who would like to return.
"They call and email from all over the United States with suggestions on how to help," he said.
A fresh start
"I'm very nervous to have all that space," said Higby, the founder of Grow Youngstown, which promote produce gardening and farmers markets. "I'm used to living in 460 square feet."
Ideally, all this energy surrounding 2010 will help turn the city around. It does have a lot going for it, including Youngstown State University, which attracts creative-class types like artists and writers and other intellectuals, as well as museums and and excellent public library.
The cheap residential and commercial real estate can be a draw. Start-up companies thrive on low overhead, and employees can easily find housing just minutes from work.
At the very least, the 2010 plan has changed residents perspective, said Hunter Morrison. "It's getting us to think about where we're going into the future, rather than where we've been in the past."
http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/08/real_estate/radical_city_plan/index.htm
Wow. I'm not sure how a totally abandoned city is supposed to spur growth unless they are trying to make it a movie set for films focusing what the world will look like after humans die off. Maybe, they should try to diversify their economy a little harder by offering an insane amount of property tax incentives. We may get upset about slow moving progress on local urban issues, but I'm happy we aren't embracing Youngstown's Mayor's vision.
Holy Cow! Maybe they should just raze everything and turn it back over to mother nature.
You're right Lake, why not devote time and money toward diversification versus demolition. Sounds all to familiar....
I guess losing half of the base population would evoke some pretty extreme decisions. Thankfully Jax only lost a downtown district and not 50% of the population.
The funny thing is the original city of Jacksonville lost just as many people as Youngstown since the 1960s. The difference is Jax consolidated with the county (this hid the population loss) and diversified its economy. Imagine if we relied on paper mills and shipyards like we did 50 years ago. We could have been the southern version of Youngstown.
So does Youngstown have an outlying unincorporated area that holds the lost pooulation? Or is the Youngstown region losing people as a whole?
We are the southern version of Youngstown; we consolidated to hide our glaring deficiencies and shortcomings...in other words, we cheated.
Jacksonville has always been a prideful city, but never really quite knew how to turn that pride into success; we were blessed by being the number one city in Florida for quite a few decades, and then we lost that glory and didn't know how to respond; so, we turned to consolidation to restore us to hopefully that former glory. Imagine if Miami, Tampa, St. Petersburg or even Orlando consolidated...they'd blow Jax out of the water population-wise.
I wonder in what order we would be today if those old City limit boundaries were still the rule and we had not consolidated...Probably would be smaller than Tallahassee, unless, we would have annexed more neighborhoods and communities along the way.
Anyone know what that population would be right now, that is, within the boundaries of the old City limits in 2008?
Heights Unknown
what defines the 'old city limits'?
Quote from: Jason on April 14, 2008, 11:49:48 AM
So does Youngstown have an outlying unincorporated area that holds the lost pooulation? Or is the Youngstown region losing people as a whole?
Yes, that region is known as the Southeastern United States. Youngstown is in a heap of trouble, both in the city limits and the immediate surrounding area. It really needs to diversify its local economy.
Quote from: Driven1 on April 14, 2008, 11:55:24 AM
what defines the 'old city limits'?
Roughly the Northside/Westside from Edgewood/Casset to the West, the Trout River to the North and Downtown to the South. I believe the southern border on the westside of the river was Ortega and the San Marco on the eastside of the river. I'll see if we can find a map.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Anyone know what that population would be right now, that is, within the boundaries of the old City limits in 2008?
Heights Unknown
A few years ago at SSC, I heard 110,000 would have been the 2000 Census number, which is down from the 204,000 it had in the 1960 census.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Jacksonville has always been a prideful city, but never really quite knew how to turn that pride into success;
Heights Unknown
Is population growth and only in the center of our city the only measure of success?
We have become a Navy powerhouse now headquarters for the new 4th fleet.
Our metro area has seen tremendous growth.
We have a strong economic base with a good mix of industries.
Very recently we have seen a new interest in core living highrise style.
Two of our three core neighborhoods are in great shape and Springfield has been getting its share of investment.
We acquired a feakin
NFL team and the national cred that comes with it.
Retail is racing into Jacksonville.
Our sports complex area is full of brand new stadiums.
We've put aside 100 million dollars for mass transit.
We have the best children's hospitals this world has to offer.
I'm betting the fastest growing port in the world? (wait till we get Cuba back)
Maybe we have been successful in spite of ourselves many times due to the natural gifts of the area. We have certainly had our blunders and other cities have been successful where we have dropped the ball. However this city's success in undeniable no doom and gloom here just some more challenges.
You're absolutely right Jeffrey. The core area of Jacksonville did lose population but the metro as a whole gained and is still gaining. Youngstown, as Lake stated, is losing people from its entire metro area. Two different animals.
Wow - that seems like an incredibly stupid way to deal with this. I'd be shocked if it actually worked.
The only way this works is if we have another building boom. Given the last one, it should be about 15-20 years for that to happen.
Taking a look at this place on Google Earth, its quite depressing. Imagine inner city Jacksonville littered all over with abandoned industrial complexes that are at least three times larger than our Ford Plant at Tallyrand. Imagine downtown completely surrounded by expressways and toxic sites. Then imagine the St. Johns River the size of Hogans Creek, but its banks filled with abandoned railyards and concrete slabs that were once the foundation to massive steel mills. That's Youngstown. Its not a pretty sight from the air, so I can imagine what it looks like at street level.
Amazingly, Youngstown State University is located downtown. Maybe the young mayor should embrace and plan around the city's center? Focus on getting a small piece of the pie right to serve as a magnet to attract additional development in adjacent shrinking neighborhoods instead of eliminating them.
QuoteMaybe, they should try to diversify their economy a little harder by offering an insane amount of property tax incentives.
This may shed a little light on the problem and supplement Lake's reasonable and common sense comment:
QuoteOhio’s Tax Challenge 1. “Ohio’s personal income tax is one of the highest in the nation. Ohio families know it, small business owners know it, companies deciding between Ohio and other states know it. Clearly, this high-rate tax is hurting our ability to compete with other states.†Ohio’s personal income tax is one of the highest in the nation, imposing a burden on families during tough economic times. And because most small businesses pay under the income tax, the high-rate income tax impedes job creation. 2. “We also have an oppressive tax on investment. New ideas and new products often require new machinery and new equipment â€" this desire to innovate is not something that we should tax.†Ohio’s tangible personal property tax burden is significantly greater than in any of our neighboring states. By its nature, the tax penalizes the investments we need. Further, tax abatements create disparities between businesses. Larger and more sophisticated companies with more resources are better positioned to take advantage of abatement programs than smaller or established companies, leading to an inequitable system. 3. “Ohio’s corporate tax is a nightmare â€" the worst of all worlds â€" and we’re going to fix it.†Ohio has a high-rate corporate franchise tax, but because of very aggressive and creative accounting collections are very low, and diminishing. Smaller companies that can’t afford high-priced lawyers and accountants pick up most of the tax burden.
www.tax.ohio.gov
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2008, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Anyone know what that population would be right now, that is, within the boundaries of the old City limits in 2008?
Heights Unknown
A few years ago at SSC, I heard 110,000 would have been the 2000 Census number, which is down from the 204,000 it had in the 1960 census.
I could have sworn that 201,030 was the 1960 population number; if that's true (110,000), then Gainesville is truly larger than the population of the "old city limits of Jax." But I believe we would probably since that time would have annexed more neighborhoods, sections, areas and small towns along the way and we'd be somewhere near or slightly above 200,000. That's in the top 10 but barely.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 14, 2008, 12:41:07 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Jacksonville has always been a prideful city, but never really quite knew how to turn that pride into success;
Heights Unknown
Is population growth and only in the center of our city the only measure of success?
We have become a Navy powerhouse now headquarters for the new 4th fleet.
Our metro area has seen tremendous growth.
We have a strong economic base with a good mix of industries.
Very recently we have seen a new interest in core living highrise style.
Two of our three core neighborhoods are in great shape and Springfield has been getting its share of investment.
We acquired a feakin NFL team and the national cred that comes with it.
Retail is racing into Jacksonville.
Our sports complex area is full of brand new stadiums.
We've put aside 100 million dollars for mass transit.
We have the best children's hospitals this world has to offer.
I'm betting the fastest growing port in the world? (wait till we get Cuba back)
Maybe we have been successful in spite of ourselves many times due to the natural gifts of the area. We have certainly had our blunders and other cities have been successful where we have dropped the ball. However this city's success in undeniable no doom and gloom here just some more challenges.
f
In all due respect Jeffery, because people make a City, not buildings, sports complexes, malls, etc. Without the people, none of this would even exist or be created; so population is very important. This is one of the reasons why downtown Jax evolved into looking like a bombed out war zone, just like Youngstown, because a huge number of people in the surrounding neighborhoods to downtown (Brooklyn, Lavilla, Springfield, South Jacksonville) left in droves.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2008, 02:51:52 PM
Taking a look at this place on Google Earth, its quite depressing. Imagine inner city Jacksonville littered all over with abandoned industrial complexes that are at least three times larger than our Ford Plant at Tallyrand. Imagine downtown completely surrounded by expressways and toxic sites. Then imagine the St. Johns River the size of Hogans Creek, but its banks filled with abandoned railyards and concrete slabs that were once the foundation to massive steel mills. That's Youngstown. Its not a pretty sight from the air, so I can imagine what it looks like at street level.
Gary Indiana is another example of a once thriving City and now is a decayed, bygone industrial waste fart.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2008, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Anyone know what that population would be right now, that is, within the boundaries of the old City limits in 2008?
Heights Unknown
A few years ago at SSC, I heard 110,000 would have been the 2000 Census number, which is down from the 204,000 it had in the 1960 census.
I could have sworn that 201,030 was the 1960 population number
Heights Unknown
204k was probably the 1950 number (I'll look up the exact number later). During the 50's Jacksonville lost population.
The property appraiser's website used to refer to the old city neighborhoods as "Old City" of Jacksonville to distinguish them from the newer annexed areas. They have now updated their website and I cant find this listed anymore.
BTW, the Old City suffered during the 60s through the 80s but it has certainly been coming back since at least the mid 1990s. I have lived here since 1999 and rarely venture outside of the Old City limits. I would like to see some population figures from the census that compares apples to apples (i.e. the same area over time) but that may not tell the whole story because when areas gentrify they look better but often times the population is reduced as single family homes that had been used as apartments are reconverted to single family homes again. So, many areas like Springfield or Riverside have gotten nicer in the past 10 years but may have less people living there in total.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2008, 02:58:57 PM
Amazingly, Youngstown State University is located downtown. Maybe the young mayor should embrace and plan around the city's center? Focus on getting a small piece of the pie right to serve as a magnet to attract additional development in adjacent shrinking neighborhoods instead of eliminating them.
Want something even more amazing about YSU? Last I checked, it's the home of NEOUCOM - Northeast Ohio Universities Colleges of Medicine. Northeast Ohio has a unique scenario where I think there's 4 or 5 neighboring counties with a state university in them (off the top of my head, Cleveland State, Youngstown State, Kent State) and quite a few independent schools (Case Western being the big player, UAkron another). NEOUCOM is basically a regional university collaboration for medical degrees - it's supposed to be super high quality and a pretty big deal, particularly with the Cleveland Clinic (one of the premier medical facilities in the world) involved. Would seem to make sense to worth off of that a bit, no?
Youngstown is basically Cleveland and Pittsburgh Junior - had it's heyday with it's industrial production, economy got devastated when that industry fell off, and unlike Cleveland and Pitt, it wasn't big enough to hold onto it's momentum and try and figure something out (also, alternative explanations might include those two larger cities sucked what Youngstown did have when they started to hurt). And it's even possible they haven't seen the worst yet - there's been talk for years of major cutbacks at the Lordstown plant (The major car plant that's in a Youngstown suburb). If Lordstown goes down, Youngstown is finished.
And with all that said,
jaxnative's point about Ohio's tax policies is 100% accurate - it's destroying business left and right. Although, just as important to note is that is strictly the STATE'S tax policy. Tax season in Ohio requires 3 returns - the federal chunk, the major state chunk, and a city/regional level tax, and that's just income tax. Corporations are just getting hosed. And the state wonders why it can't attract new business to replace the industrial losses.
So basically Youngstown has the worst of all worlds - inept state leadership, inept local leadership, no economic base, no innovation, and no incentive to bring in help to turn things around. And who knows...maybe the idea of shrinking might work - it's your typical corporate handling of things...if you get too big to handle and you're hemorrhaging money, you cut back the areas you service, reorganize, and try and put yourself in a position to expand again in a more logical way when you can handle it. Not the way I'd approach it, but then, I'm just a message board commenter. ;)
(Disclaimer if everyone hasn't figured it out: I was born and raised in Cleveland for 25 years before moving to Jax a few years back)
Well, maybe they are on to something afterall. In LaVilla we could rip up the streets and plant trees. This would return the area to its super-historic and original use as a forest.
Then LaVilla would be an urban park. That's still a better use then what it turned out to be.
A plan in Youngstown aims to move residents out of the city's most deserted areas. The hitch: Home owners won't budge - even for $50,000.
YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio (CNNMoney.com) -- When the city of Youngstown, Ohio, proposed incentives to move people out of declining neighborhoods, it sounded like a good idea - in theory.
The city hoped to lure holdouts living on nearly empty blocks and relocate them to more lively areas, as part of its plan to remake itself in the wake of the steel industry's departure and the foreclosure crisis. It's already cleared some lots for things like playgrounds.
Now Youngstown wants to close entire streets and bulldoze abandoned properties so it can shut down city services like street lighting, police patrols and garbage pick-ups that it can no longer afford to maintain.
To do this on a large scale, the city needs to get about 100 residents to relocate. Each is eligible for $50,000 in incentives - plenty, in this town, to buy a new home and move. The hitch: Youngstowners don't seem to want to leave their homes, no matter how blighted or abandoned the neighborhood may be.
"I'm East Side born and East Side bred and when I die, I'll be East Side dead," said Rufus Hudson, a director of work force development at Youngstown State University. "We love our side of town. The same people who watched me grow are watching my children grow."
http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/15/real_estate/Youngstown_plan_roadblock/index.htm?postversion=2008042411
Sounds like this isn't working all that well...
Talk about going to extremes. Man, that city is really going through some serious pains.
sorry ohio but sounds like a personal problem
Isn't that "urban renewal"?
Quote from: stephendare on April 14, 2008, 04:37:56 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 04:14:14 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 14, 2008, 12:41:07 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Jacksonville has always been a prideful city, but never really quite knew how to turn that pride into success;
Heights Unknown
Is population growth and only in the center of our city the only measure of success?
We have become a Navy powerhouse now headquarters for the new 4th fleet.
Our metro area has seen tremendous growth.
We have a strong economic base with a good mix of industries.
Very recently we have seen a new interest in core living highrise style.
Two of our three core neighborhoods are in great shape and Springfield has been getting its share of investment.
We acquired a feakin NFL team and the national cred that comes with it.
Retail is racing into Jacksonville.
Our sports complex area is full of brand new stadiums.
We've put aside 100 million dollars for mass transit.
We have the best children's hospitals this world has to offer.
I'm betting the fastest growing port in the world? (wait till we get Cuba back)
Maybe we have been successful in spite of ourselves many times due to the natural gifts of the area. We have certainly had our blunders and other cities have been successful where we have dropped the ball. However this city's success in undeniable no doom and gloom here just some more challenges.
f
In all due respect Jeffery, because people make a City, not buildings, sports complexes, malls, etc. Without the people, none of this would even exist or be created; so population is very important. This is one of the reasons why downtown Jax evolved into looking like a bombed out war zone, just like Youngstown, because a huge number of people in the surrounding neighborhoods to downtown (Brooklyn, Lavilla, Springfield, South Jacksonville) left in droves.
Heights Unknown
But you know, Heights, there were reasons that they left. Policy decisions and developments that make you wonder in hindsight: What the hell is wrong with people?"
It wasnt just the screaming masses of Whites fleeing the city in cold terror after the race riots on the Eastside and the Klan Terrorist Attacks in Hemming Park.
The policies which created suburban sprawl are still in place.
I agree Stephen, I agree wholeheartedly; however, once the City started losing population, that should have sent an alarm bell throughout the City Government that the entire City, not just downtown was deteriorating and decaying, to put it bluntly, someone should have done something to stop it or alerted others in leadership so a plan could be initiated to stop it.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 04:14:14 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 14, 2008, 12:41:07 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on April 14, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
Jacksonville has always been a prideful city, but never really quite knew how to turn that pride into success;
Heights Unknown
Is population growth and only in the center of our city the only measure of success?
We have become a Navy powerhouse now headquarters for the new 4th fleet.
Our metro area has seen tremendous growth.
We have a strong economic base with a good mix of industries.
Very recently we have seen a new interest in core living highrise style.
Two of our three core neighborhoods are in great shape and Springfield has been getting its share of investment.
We acquired a feakin NFL team and the national cred that comes with it.
Retail is racing into Jacksonville.
Our sports complex area is full of brand new stadiums.
We've put aside 100 million dollars for mass transit.
We have the best children's hospitals this world has to offer.
I'm betting the fastest growing port in the world? (wait till we get Cuba back)
Maybe we have been successful in spite of ourselves many times due to the natural gifts of the area. We have certainly had our blunders and other cities have been successful where we have dropped the ball. However this city's success in undeniable no doom and gloom here just some more challenges.
f
In all due respect Jeffery, because people make a City, not buildings, sports complexes, malls, etc. Without the people, none of this would even exist or be created; so population is very important. This is one of the reasons why downtown Jax evolved into looking like a bombed out war zone, just like Youngstown, because a huge number of people in the surrounding neighborhoods to downtown (Brooklyn, Lavilla, Springfield, South Jacksonville) left in droves.
Heights Unknown
The Urban core losing population is a problem I was just saying that it isn't the only measure of success or failure.
I feel strongly that the biggest thing Jacksonville lacks is a vibrant downtown that the whole of the metro area can enjoy.