Per The Atlantic
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/11/florida-about-enter-golden-age-rail/7570/ (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/11/florida-about-enter-golden-age-rail/7570/)
Is Florida About to Enter a 'Golden Age' of Rail?
When it comes to surface transportation, Florida is a road-first state. Rail is such a distant second that it's hardly fair to call it second at all. The trip between Orlando and Miami takes almost 6 hours on Amtrak's Silver Meteor and 7.5 hours on its Silver Star, both of which cut across the state and back again to reach Tampa mid-route (below, in red). The car trip, by contrast, is 3 hours on a single interstate.
(http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img/upload/2013/11/13/amtrak-map-florida.jpg)
But lately Florida's road-rail gap has started to close. A passenger rail service called All Aboard Florida, is trying to become America's first private carrier in decades. It recently finished the last deal needed to secure the route between Orlando and Miami. The service is scheduled to begin carrying travelers in 2015 — connecting the two cities in a car-competitive 3 hours.
The development has Scott Gunnerson of Florida Today wondering if the state is about to enter a "golden age of rail travel." Ananth Prasad, the state's transportation secretary, told Gunnerson that All Aboard Florida "will be the genesis for continued expansion of passenger rail." The sea change is attributed in large part to a belief that there's no other way around the state's awful highway congestion:
"We know the roadway network is not going to increase at the rate population will, so areas that are constrained today will be highly constrained in the future," said Kim DeLaney, strategic development coordinator for Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council.
Gunnerson's piece focuses on the rail service next-in-line after All Aboard Florida: an improved Amtrak route along the state's east coast. A preliminary study from 2011 found that reviving a dormant line between Jacksonville and Miami was the "most promising initiative for expansion" among Amtrak's long-distance services. Such a line could attract 100,000 riders and generate $7.9 million a year [PDF].
Amtrak's latest ridership figures suggest those estimates aren't far off. Last year about 94,000 people boarded the train in Jacksonville and another 84,000 boarded in Miami [PDF]. Considering the marathon that is current rail service through the state — Jacksonville to Miami is 9 hours on the Silver Meteor and longer on the Silver Star — one can reasonably assume those figures would rise with a quicker train.
There are lots of barriers. Among them, Amtrak's 2011 report noted the need for infrastructure upgrades, local investments, and changes to Florida's liability laws. Before any of that occurs, All Aboard Florida would have to make a promising start. That service still faces some challenges, too, including public noise complaints. Last but not least, a cultural shift would have to occur among Floridians.
Gunnerson writes:
The FDOT secretary believes the real challenge is getting society to accept trains as a primary mode of transportation again, but a transformation to a European-style dependence on rail travel is too lofty a goal.
That process of acceptance does seem to be underway. In announcing his campaign for governor earlier this month, former-Governor Charlie Crist twice made reference to current-Governor Rick Scott's* decision to cancel a proposed high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando. He also mentioned how unbearable the traffic has become on one of the state's major interstates:
"It's hard to have empathy if you haven't suffered like that and been on I-4. I'm on it once a week, man."
You said it, man.
From Florida Today
Golden age of rapid rail service envisioned for Florida
(http://cmsimg.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=A9&Date=20131104&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=311030027&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0&Golden-age-rapid-rail-service-envisioned-Florida)
Passenger rail service was a big part of Florida's — and Brevard County's — past. And it looks as if paying customers will soon be rolling down the tracks that run along U.S. 1 through the county again.
Those first passengers will just be passing through, perhaps as early as 2015. But if all goes well, new railway stations could open in Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne soon after that, allowing passengers to board or disembark on the Space Coast. Could the golden age of rail travel be making a comeback?
Modern Florida — or the state's East Coast at least — was more or less invented by railroad magnate Henry Flagler. Flagler took a fortune he made as a co-founder of Standard Oil and, in the 1880s, set his eyes on the Sunshine State, which he envisioned as a wintertime mecca for the wealthy.
The trick, he knew, was getting them here quickly and in comfort. So he built his own rail line down the state's East Coast. And along those tracks he built luxury hotels, many of which are still in use today. For a while, the track went as far south as Rockledge. That made the Brevard County city the tourism capital of Florida for a short time in the late 1880s, even receiving a wintertime visit from President Grover Cleveland. But as the track stretched farther south, so did the state's centers of tourism.
Passenger rail service remained vital to Florida for decades. Over the years, Brevard County had nearly 30 mainline railroad stations in Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne as well as such small places as East Aurantia, Frontenac, Pineda, Sarno and Tillman. Eventually, they faded into history as travelers opted for the speed of airline travel and flexibility of automobiles. Passenger rail service on the Florida East Coast Railway was discontinued in 1968.
Now, trains are poised to make a comeback in Florida as a way to move more people in a state clogged with highway traffic. And plans center on the very same rail line Flagler first laid down more than a century ago. "We know the roadway network is not going to increase at the rate population will, so areas that are constrained today will be highly constrained in the future," said Kim DeLaney, strategic development coordinator for Treasure Coast Regional Planning Council.
Communities and transportation groups have worked for more than 20 years to restore passenger service from Jacksonville to Miami on Flagler's old Florida East Coast Railway line, which is now dedicated to freight trains. The latest proposal, developed by the state in 2009, would have Amtrak operate passenger train service between Jacksonville and Miami with eight stations in between, including Titusville, Cocoa-Rockledge and Melbourne.
More than 160 groups, businesses and municipalities along the route have endorsed the project, hoping it would produce an economic boost in tourism. Early estimates had 175,000 passengers using the service in the first year, based on two roundtrips daily between the cities.
Before that happens, though, the Florida Department of Transportation, Amtrak and the Florida East Coast Railway, which owns most of the tracks along the 351-mile route, must sign an operating agreement, according to Leigh Holt of the Space Coast Transportation Planning Organization. But that proposal was sidetracked by Florida East Coast Industries' plans to offer passenger rail service of its own between Orlando and Miami.
FEC's "All Aboard Florida" is set to become the only privately owned intercity passenger rail service in the country.
Although All Aboard Florida trains will travel through Brevard on FEC tracks from Cocoa south, there are no plans for stops along the Space Coast. FEC has said the speed of express service between the two cities is necessary to make it economically viable. The company expects the trip between Miami and Orlando to take three hours. Currently, a one-way trip to Miami through the center part of the state takes more than five hours from Kissimmee.
Construction for additional track in Brevard should begin in 2014 and trains are expected to be running as early as December 2015, according to Rusty Roberts, FEC Industries Vice President of corporate development. The work will include upgrading crossings and signal equipment throughout the corridor. The privately funded project has grabbed the attention of state transportation planners.
"For a private company to be prepared to invest $1.5 billion into initiating a premium inter-city passenger rail service, they've got to be convinced based on their ridership and economic analysis that it is going to be successful," said Fred Wise, FDOT's rail office manager. "Otherwise, they wouldn't be moving forward with it."
State officials are also interested to see how All Aboard Florida fares before moving on to other projects using taxpayers' dollars. "Once this gets built and starts running, it will be the genesis for continued expansion of passenger rail, whether it is FEC, other entities or potentially Amtrak," said Ananth Prasad, Florida Department of Transportation secretary.
"Amtrak has expressed an interest to go down the East Coast, and we have been in conversation with them, trying to understand what sort of capital investment is needed. At the end of the day, we want to make sure we make smart investments." Tina Galli wants passenger rail service from Melbourne to Fort Lauderdale, where she has family. The 48-year-old Palm Bay woman has two daughters attending college in South Florida, and she believes a train could make their trips home less complicated.
"It would be so much easier for them to hop on a train to Melbourne instead of me having to drive down there and get them," Galli said. "We are down there two or three times a month." She also believes a train would be more economical and safer than driving. "With the price of gas, it would be much cheaper to jump on a train," Galli said. "Plus, traffic is a nightmare down there."
Gloria Pappas, 72, of Indialantic wants passenger rail service closer to home for her annual trips to Albany, N.Y., to visit family. She has to connect with Amtrak in Kissimmee since moving to Brevard County nine years ago and would rather board a train in Melbourne. Pappas prefers train travel to the "hustle and bustle" of airports and airline flights. "I enjoy the comfort and the full pace of the train," Pappas said. "I can relax, read and listen to my music, and I meet a lot of nice people."
FDOT is currently studying models of All Aboard Florida's plan to determine what improvements would be needed to include Amtrak's Jacksonville-to-Miami passenger service.
"We will need to do an assessment with our East Coast partners in terms of economic impact associated with making those communities accessible for tourism and providing that alternative transportation," Wise said. Plans for the Amtrak service call for stops in Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne.
Titusville plans to restore the historic Pine Street station. Melbourne expects to build a station on Strawbridge Avenue on city property east of the railroad tracks across from the City Hall parking lot. "It is the same kind of train station we had in 1968 before it was bulldozed down," said Melbourne Mayor Kathy Meehan. "We have everything in order as far as the legal aspect."
The Cocoa-Rockledge stop would use a 1950s-style train station at Rosa L. Jones Boulevard. Although the locations are selected along with artists' concepts, all three stations are on hold until a deal is done. "We want to make sure before we expend any dollars that it is going to happen," said John Titkanich, Cocoa city manager. "We want to be judicious and not waste any tax dollars for unnecessary design and engineering costs unless we know for sure. We are ready to pull that trigger once the time is appropriate, but we don't want to do it too early."
Titusville Mayor Jim Tulley remains cautious about the Amtrak venture. He supports the idea in theory but wants to see updated ridership projections before committing local money to the project. "We all have to work with budgets and will all have to look at return on investment," Tulley said. "Without the potential ridership numbers, it is hard to come back and say this is a real winner and we ought to back it 100 percent."
FDOT agrees that it is too soon for municipalities to move forward without a firm deal in place.
The Florida Department of Transportation has $118 million to build or refurbish the eight train stations along the route. The amount of state money municipalities will receive for the project has not been determined. "We wouldn't want to start doing any gearing up that results in spending money until we know we have a project," Wise said. "Hopefully we know that in the next several months."
Once the go-ahead is given, Wise expects the passenger service could be operational in less than four years. Florida's generally flat terrain and long distance between major cities makes the state an ideal location for new rail service, but for more than 10 years, several efforts to build high-speed rail systems have been thwarted.
In 2011, Gov. Rick Scott rejected $2.4 billion from the federal government to build an 84-mile high-speed rail line from Orlando to Tampa. The money was part of an $8 billion economic stimulus package for rail. The Florida governor feared construction cost overruns and operating losses from a lack of ridership would leave the state taxpayers making up the difference.
In, 2004, Gov. Jeb Bush led a repeal of a constitutional amendment requiring construction of high-speed rail.
After he took office in 1999, Bush stopped construction of a $6 billion bullet train system that would have linked Orlando, Tampa and Miami.
The FDOT secretary believes the real challenge is getting society to accept trains as a primary mode of transportation again, but a transformation to a European-style dependence on rail travel is too lofty a goal.
"There are some places where it makes sense in Florida," Prasad said.
"This country was built around a framework of roads. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking at inter-city passenger rail where it makes sense. "For rail to be successful, you need destination and density. We need to make sure the rail is going where people want to go."
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=20005.0
Apologies, I did a quick scan to make sure I wasn't duplicating anyone. Didn't catch this one.
I like this thread better it includes a map.
All great ideas. Now its my turn. 1) "Unsuspend" the Sunset Limited between New Orleans and Orlando. 2) Bring passenger trains back to the S line, which runs parallel to US 301. 3) Before spending trillions on high speed rail, revisit the Florida Overland eXpress (FOX) proposal from the late 90s. The FOX was higher speed trains using existing tracks between Tampa & Orlando. It would cost money to upgrade the tracks and eliminate grade crossings, and build overpasses. However as I recall it wouldnt be nearly expensive as the proposed high speed rail.
High speed rail is a lovely idea, but lets start with what's already in place first.
Amtrak doesn't want the Sunset Limited because it was an underperforming route. Also, the dead Tampa to Orlando HSR project was going to be funded, operated and maintained by private dollars for at least 30 years. Building Sunrail cost taxpayers more. Also, we can't force passenger trains on CSX's line between Lakeland and Tampa. I still think not letting the private sector pay for new rail infrastructure between Tampa and Orlando was one of the most shortsighted decisions to come out of Tallahassee in a while. If I-4 isn't paved over, I'd bet the house we'll end of looking at that corridor again for rail. However, I do agree that conventional rail would work in that corridor just fine and that HSR was overkill. But I would have still let private dollars pay for the infrastructure between two of the state's largest metros.
If properly promoted, the Sunset Limited leg between Orlando and New Orleans could help cities like Tallahassee. I know some folks who traveled this route when coming home to Jacksonville from Tallahassee. IMHO, this beats having to depend solely on Interstate 10 to travel west of Jacksonville. Furthermore, one would think that Tallahassee, Pensacola and other cities would be lobbying for a revival of full Sunset Limited service.
Someone will need to pay for it. That's probably the largest issue. Amtrak doesn't want it.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 15, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
Someone will need to pay for it. That's probably the largest issue. Amtrak doesn't want it.
That is what I do not understand. Florida does not appear to work as closely with Amtrak as other states have. And it's not just a California or 'blue state' thing. I see that Missouri and North Carolina also have relatively strong partnerships with Amtrak. Why not Florida?
The partnership Amtrak wants with Florida is putting their trains on the FEC between Jacksonville and Miami. That partnership is very much in the works as the state has already earmarked funds. The state will construct and Amtrak will take care of O&M. From what I've heard, it's just taken a back seat to the AAF project at the moment. I figure the state wants to take advantage of the FEC and AAF upgrading most of the track. On the other hand, despite the track being repaired years ago, Amtrak wants no part of the Sunset Limited. The state isn't interested in subsidizing lines with low ridership either. That combination is why nothing is happening with the corridor.
The I 10 can be looked at after we demonstrate some success with the South and Central florida lines. AAF and Amtrack on the FEC are great placs to start. Particularly if the AAF can make it look like a private venture can be profitable. Obviously the government is very involved in AAF but gives enough "private" cover to satisfy those who think government shouldn't spend a dime.
Here is how one town responded to the Amtrak subsidy requirement. I will check around, but I think Dyer found that 90% of the people who boarded that train Hoosier at their station didn't live in or near Dyer. It raises one of the problems of local Amtrak subsidies.
http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/11226348/dyer-balks-at-amtrak-subsidy (http://www.masstransitmag.com/news/11226348/dyer-balks-at-amtrak-subsidy)
Dyer Balks at Amtrak Route Subsidy
Dyer has ended up as the lone holdout in the state-led deal to rescue the Hoosier State Amtrak route.
Other communities that benefit from the Hoosier State are contributing combinations of money and services to keep the service running, according to the Indiana Department of Transportation. That includes Rensselaer, whose train stop has the fewest passengers of any of the five Indiana stops.
INDOT requested Dyer contribute $5,000 per month to help keep the Hoosier State running, but the town declined, Town Manager Rick Eberly said.
"We just don't have the ridership to justify those kind of dollars," Eberly said.
Dyer provides care taking services for the train platform and shelter at 913 Sheffield Ave. and performs upkeep and minor repairs under an existing contract with Amtrak. According to Amtrak statistics, 2,934 passengers got on and off trains in fiscal year 2013 at the Dyer platform.
The Hoosier State, which runs four days per week, and The Cardinal, which runs three days per week, will continue to stop to board and let passengers off at the Dyer platform, according to Amtrak.
In early October, INDOT inked a deal with Amtrak to provide a $2.7 million subsidy for the Hoosier State to keep it running for one more year. The deal includes an option to continue the subsidy and the train service for four more months after that.
Congress decided in 2008 to end federal support for Amtrak routes shorter than 750 miles. The Hoosier State travels 196 miles between Indianapolis and Chicago.
Altogether, the communities of Rensselaer, Indianapolis, Crawfordsville, Lafayette, West Lafayette, Tippecanoe County and Beech Grove will put up about half the $2.7 million the state has pledged to subsidize the Hoosier State route, INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield said.
Rensselaer, where 2,239 people boarded or alighted from a train in fiscal year 2013, decided it was in its best interest to help keep the Hoosier State running, Mayor Stephen Wood said.
The city plans to use some of its share of the county's economic development income tax to pay the $1,500 per month INDOT requested, Wood said. That amounts to $18,000 for the year. That works out to a local subsidy of about $8 for every rider getting on or off there.
With the subsidy payment, Rensselaer also wins a seat at the table when it comes to negotiating any changes in the Hoosier State service to keep it running, Wood said. St. Joseph College and the city's history as a rail center make the subsidy worth it, he said.
"And we just felt if we lost Amtrak service, we would never get it back," he said.
In August, Amtrak and city officials in Rensselaer cut the ribbon on a new one-story red brick station stop funded by Amtrak. Two years previously a $500,000, 550-foot long concrete platform was completed there using federal stimulus funds.
I like Rensselaer's approach has been. They're paying $18k a year to subsidize the operation of a stop in their community but leveraged the service to get Amtrak and the Feds to pay at least $500k for a new station. As a taxpayer, I'd be fine contributing $18k annually for a +$500k upfront investment in my community. Coordinate land development around that station and they could have infill development that increases the tax base too.
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 15, 2013, 10:57:26 PM
The I 10 can be looked at after we demonstrate some success with the South and Central florida lines. AAF and Amtrack on the FEC are great placs to start. Particularly if the AAF can make it look like a private venture can be profitable. Obviously the government is very involved in AAF but gives enough "private" cover to satisfy those who think government shouldn't spend a dime.
Saw a presentation by a honcho from AAF the other day. He says there is no government money in AAF. AAF/FEC are upgrading (double) the existing tracks between Cocoa and South Florida, AAF purchased the right of way from FDOT and an Expressway Authority along the Beach Line between Orlando International Airport and Cocoa, and will construct the tracks - with all grade separated crossings. AAF is building their terminal at the south end of OIA, and OIA is going to build a whole new air terminal around it. Eventually, the tax subsidized Sun-Rail will connect to the AAF terminal at OIA.
^ as long as we don't count government-backed loans as government money
As long as they pay them back, why would anyone? Do we count government insured (backed) savings accounts as "government money"?
Can Corrine Brown deliver for Florida?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/07/15/north-florida-leaders-want-amtrak.html
What about government secured leases? Those low rate loans and leases certainly represent investment by the tax payer. I have no problem with it I think it is great and do not mind at all mitigating the private risk for the public good.
Quote from: Jaxson on November 16, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Can Corrine Brown deliver for Florida?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/07/15/north-florida-leaders-want-amtrak.html
That article dates back to July. I sat in on a rail presentation in September where a representative from FDOT pretty much stated that Amtrak still wasn't interested in bringing the Sunset Limited back.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2013, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on November 16, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Can Corrine Brown deliver for Florida?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/07/15/north-florida-leaders-want-amtrak.html
That article dates back to July. I sat in on a rail presentation in September where a representative from FDOT pretty much stated that Amtrak still wasn't interested in bringing the Sunset Limited back.
Drat.
I was looking at a funding deck for Amtrak and they still showed the Sunset Route as a dotted line from Jax to NOLA.
Not sure if that was to placate Corrine and the Florida delegation.
I'd say it's to placate. From the way it looks to me, if Congresswoman Brown really wants it, she'll have to pay for it.
If I'm not mistaken, those maps will continue to show the Sunset Route as long as there are still stations existing along the line owned by Amtrak (anyone else heard that? Not sure where I heard/read it so only 55% sure). Not sure why, you'd think they could sell those small properties to local development. Or maybe just holding on to see if AAF will spread west or inspire another private agency.
As for the Sunset Limited, it was such a shoddy schedule how could they think it would make money? If it at least ran once a day (preferably not stopping in Jax at 3am, then more people would have used it in my opinion. Unfortunately, as much as I hate paying $3.50+ for a gallon I gas, those high prices is what I think will bring about a larger shift to intercity train transit. Had they restored this line after the bridge collapse in 2005, and made it a daily route, this might have been a profitable line for Amtrak in those 2008-2012 "rough" years.
I can't imagine it being profitable if they increased service on the Sunset Limited. Most of Amtrak's most popular routes aren't profitable. They are just subsidized less. In the case of the desire to operate on the FEC betweeen Jax and Miami, they believe they have a chance to break even operating the service, assuming the state pays the capital costs.
Quote from: JayBird on November 17, 2013, 09:08:52 AM
If I'm not mistaken, those maps will continue to show the Sunset Route as long as there are still stations existing along the line owned by Amtrak (anyone else heard that? Not sure where I heard/read it so only 55% sure). Not sure why, you'd think they could sell those small properties to local development. Or maybe just holding on to see if AAF will spread west or inspire another private agency.
As for the Sunset Limited, it was such a shoddy schedule how could they think it would make money? If it at least ran once a day (preferably not stopping in Jax at 3am, then more people would have used it in my opinion. Unfortunately, as much as I hate paying $3.50+ for a gallon I gas, those high prices is what I think will bring about a larger shift to intercity train transit. Had they restored this line after the bridge collapse in 2005, and made it a daily route, this might have been a profitable line for Amtrak in those 2008-2012 "rough" years.
I agree that the poor schedule doomed the Orlando to New Orleans leg of the Sunset Limited. I still think that there should be a way to connect the Gulf Coast states. I wonder if there are enough people who dislike driving Interstate 10 to support a better scheduled train between Florida and Louisiana. Even a connecting Amtrak Thruway bus service to hook up with the Sunset Limited in New Orleans would be helpful.
Quote from: Jaxson on November 17, 2013, 04:02:54 PM
Even a connecting Amtrak Thruway bus service to hook up with the Sunset Limited in New Orleans would be helpful.
That might be good way to test, somehow compare Greyhound tickets before/after service disconnected may also work. I think it would get more use if the tracks were closer to the gulf in Florida so it hit Panama City, port st joe, destin and the like.