America's Downtowns Ranked by Number of Employees
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2575153581_GqpLcr3-M.jpg)
America's 100 largest downtowns ranked by number of employees. Find out if and where Jacksonville makes the list.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-nov-americas-downtowns-ranked-by-number-of-employees
Surprised to see Miami ahead of Atlanta.
^^^It should be noted that the same report actually places DT Jax at 38,000 employees, which falls in line with what we have been saying here, but doesn't seem to jive with lots of the other small downtowns in the country that are estimated as having larger employment numbers, but are clearly smaller. The 56,000 number comes from the secondary employment center named "JAcksonville Medical Center", which I think we can infer means the Southbank, and the Northbank is close enough where its employment numbers would be counted...as well as Riverside.
It should also be noted that usually state capitals (especially in the small-mid size) are way overcounted for various reasons. Same goes for towns with universities right in their center (Austin comes to mind).
It should also be noted that Boston isn't even counted because statistics aren't officially kept in MA.
It should finally be noted that there are secondary employment centers such as Koreatown/Wilshire in LA, Brooklyn (admittedly over-counted due to the nature of the functions that downtown serves), Las Vegas Strip, Irvine CA, and others that are massively large and in the top 20 of all employment centers in the country.
Also, want to point out that DC is the "4th largest DT" in America with 468K workers, AND 50.5% of residents within 1 mile of the outer edge of downtown also work downtown (very high %), AND a whopping 173K residents lives within its CBD's loose borders (higher than notably dense cities like SF despite water taking up half of the area, Lower Manhattan despite water taking up half its area, DT Chicago despite water taking up half its area, and Center City Philadelphia), . This is all patently misleading because when you look at employment density it falls wayyy short (97 employees per acre, behind all of the majors, several secondary centers, and places like Cincinnati and St. Paul MN). Basically DC is a mega sprawling downtown no thanks to its height limits.
We can deduct that with 468K employees at an average of 97 employees/acre, that its CBD sprawls 7.5 square miles. Add 1 mile out from its borders and you get 22.45 sq miles. 173K people live within these 22.45 sq miles, or 7,704ppsm, which is less than the DC average of 10,300 ppsm.
Contrast Jacksonville's 56,000 employees at avg density of 44 jobs/acre (I used the higher Jax Medical Center figures as opposed to DT Jax figures), and you're at 2 sq mi. Add 1 mile to each side and you're at 16 sq mi. 25,000 people live within this area (I used the higher "downtown Jax" figures rather than the "Jax Medical Center" figures), which of course includes a good bit of water. 1,563 ppsm around downtown. Not a good sign - need to build that up to a "uniform" 3-4,000ppsm across all 16 sq miles.
BTW, none of the FL downtowns have a "dense" downtown when it comes to employment. The most dense is Tampa at 87 jobs/acre and at only 1.5 sq mi is actually one of the smaller downtowns. It sustains a moderate employment density over a small area. Miami has 188,000 DT employees, but spread all over between DT, Brickell, and other submarkets that are half-heartedly connected, such that its employment density is only 52 jobs/acre and its downtown is a whopping 5.65 sq mi, one of the largest in the country. Yet it packs residential punch with 141,000 residents within 1 mile of this large downtown area (and considering water takes up lots of this are). Its downtown still feels quiet and dead to me because the residents are often part-time, the buildings are gated, and there isn't much of a concentrated employment base as compared to other downtowns.
Jax would do wise to not just focus on residential and tourism, but also office employment growth downtown. Relatively speaking compared to other parts of town, Lower Manhattan, SF's Financial District, Chicago's Loop, and Boston's financial district all shut down. But they are still ZOOMING at least 15 hours a day. 5:30 AM til about 8:30 PM where I live, all driven by office (4th most dense downtown behind the 2 New Yorks and Chicago, and I don't even believe LA's #s for a second knowing that market a fair bit).
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 05, 2013, 03:59:47 AM
Surprised to see Miami ahead of Atlanta.
Atlanta has Midtown and Downtown broken up.
DT Atl = 143,000 employees,
MT Atl = 104,000 employees
Total = 247,000 employees
Miami = 188,000 employees
DT Atl = 88 employees per acre
MT Atl = 33 employees per acre
Blended = 51.7 employees per acre
Estimated employment area = 7.46 sq mi (33,110 employees per sq mi)
Miami = 52 employees per acre
Estimated employment area = 5.65 sq mi (33,274 employees per sq mi)
All in all, Miami and Atlanta have a similar employment density, but Atlanta when it comes to sheer office space and employment is considerably larger than Miami. It also has a larger, denser core (Downtown).
For office space comparison (looking at multi-tenant and/or for lease space, not owner/occupied), the Miami CBD, including DT, Brickell, and Biscayne corridor has about 22.6 million RSF, of which about 17.6% is vacant and about 46% is Class A.
MT Atl has about 24 million SF and DT has about 36 million SF for combined 60 million RSF (Buckhead has 22 million SF for comparison). 15.2% is currently vacant and 55% is Class A.
Contrast with SF, which has 73 million SF in an area less than 30% the size of Atlanta's CBD area.
For reference:
Northbank has about 12 million SF
Southbank has about 3 million SF
Riverside has about 3 million SF
San Marco has about 2 million SF
Total core of Jax has about 20 million SF of office space spread over a rather large area probably about the size larger than the core of Atlanta. It needs to tighten up and densify employment if it wants to "feel" active.
edit: just looked and Riverside and San Marco take up huge areas, so for backup the largest 25 buildings take up about 9.4 million SF. I'm sure the DT area is closer to 15 million SF tops.
I was surprised to see Sac-Town so high.
simms3 great info and insight.
When you talk about the density has anyone factored the HUGE redo of the Martin Luther King parkway? I know it's just outside of the area that you are describing but you talk about the wiping out of businesses and building stock. Would like to hear the positives or negatives that this displacement is having.
Thanks, I lived in ATL for a while so I knew something was up that had Miami ahead of Atlanta. Would be interesting to see Jax with South Point added although I know its not DT.
^It does when you include Brooklyn and the Southbank. Over the years, downtown's boundaries have been redefined and enlarged to include these areas.
Not sure why that needed to be redefined, personally I have always seen these areas part of DT
Thanks Sims. Great insight.
"Total core of Jax has about 20 million SF of office space spread over a rather large area probably about the size larger than the core of Atlanta. It needs to tighten up and densify employment if it wants to "feel" active."
Great point!
Take that, Downtown Albany!
I think most cities define their downtown somewhat differently, and that probably accounts for the widely varying accounts.
In Jacksonville we actually have several definitions in common use. For most people, "Downtown" means the core area, including only the Northbank east of Hogans Creek, south of about Union/State, and west of Lavilla (or possibly including Lavilla). However, the "Central Business District" is often considered equivalent to Downtown. This comprises a wider area, including the Southbank (approximately north of 95), the Stadium District out to the riverfront docks, and Lavilla and Brooklyn. This includes area beyond what many people would consider the true "downtown", but it has more of an official position. You also regularly hear people who work in Brooklyn or the Southbank say "I work Downtown". Within the CBD I'd wager there really are 38k workers, as it includes those areas.
Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.
The best part about this list is that it gives a better idea of who our true peer cities are when we are comparing notes.
Quote from: TPC on November 05, 2013, 11:06:47 AM
Take that, Downtown Albany!
Don't worry, we're on their tail. By 2020, we'll have a BRT system just like them. It would be cool to see if they've had any TOD as a result of their investment....
(http://www.greenbiz.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/wide_large/20110414Duo-GardBusPlus.jpg)
Albany's BusPlus BRT
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5264/5586370940_82181cf908_z.jpg)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.
Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on November 05, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.
Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.
That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.
I knew that "Jax doesn't have 56,000, it truly has 500 people" argument was gonna come. LOL, so predictable, and funny I think.
Did they miss Memphis on the list? According to Memphis sources there 73,300 downtown employees.
http://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2012/nov/2/downtown-rising/
^^^I'm more concerned with jobs throughout the entire city, not only downtown with a rather unique small core. That being said, of course DT Jax definitely can use some jobs and housing there.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:13:16 PM
I knew that "Jax doesn't have 56,000, it truly has 500 people" argument was gonna come. LOL, so predictable, and funny I think.
This is getting a bit predictable at this point, don't you think it's time for a new schtick?
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 08:36:48 PM
^^^I'm more concerned with jobs throughout the entire city, not only downtown with a rather unique small core. That being said, of course DT Jax definitely can use some jobs and housing there.
Well yes, after they demolished 2/3's of it what's left is small. Kind of missing the lesson there.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 08:42:04 PM
Well yes, after they demolished 2/3's of it what's left is small. Kind of missing the lesson there.
Continue on arguing with reasonable commments....
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 08:41:13 PM
This is getting a bit predictable at this point, don't you think it's time for a new schtick?
I'm not the one with the tiresome negative 'schtick' here...
I-10 should start his own suburban jacksonville site, seeing that that seems to be ultimately what he wants. Its available too. Go for it, I-10! https://www.register.com/checkout/available-login.rcmx?domain=suburbanjacksonville.com&term=36&result=available&searchOrigin=homepage&domain=suburbanjacksonville&selectedTLDs=.com&bulkTest=true
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on November 05, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.
Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.
That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.
There are 25 existing buildings (the 25 largest between Northbank, Southbank, Riverside Ave) that contain between 9 and 10 million SF. It's not unreasonable to state that downtown has 12-15 million rentable SF. This includes office space in 1-5 floor buildings, as well. Yes, downtown is mostly surface parking. But it actually has a sizable built environment (albeit super spread out). And no that does not include City Hall or the City Hall Annex, but it does include privately owned buildings where the City happens to lease all or most of the space.
The type of employment can also make a difference. Tech office space often has a ridiculously low tenant/space ratio. I've heard of several deals that are sub 1:100 (1 employee per rentable SF). Usable is a whole 'nother story. Most of the office deals I have worked on recently have been tech deals where the floorplan of the space in question is designed for 1:110-1:150. There are still law firms where the ratio is north of 1:500, just to point out the difference.
Therefore, it can be concluded that the reason that many people feel or comment that San Francisco can feel even busier than a Chicago (which is much larger) is that in addition to having pretty high building density (73 million RSF in an area 30% the size of Atlanta's CBD, or probably not too dissimilar as Northbank + Southbank), there is lots of tech employment with high employment densities, AND a very low vacancy rate.
Quote from: simms3 on November 06, 2013, 01:48:01 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on November 05, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Downtown doesn't have 56,000 workers, and doesn't have 38,000 either. The actual figure is more like 8,000.
Does it actually have 12million SF of office space? Then it must have a 90% vacancy rate.
That figure is also bogus, half the buildings down there have been demolished or turned into single-tenant government offices, and a sizeable chunk of what's left are either gutted or otherwise not in marketable condition, yet the total ft. sq. numbers haven't changed in decades.
There are 25 existing buildings (the 25 largest between Northbank, Southbank, Riverside Ave) that contain between 9 and 10 million SF. It's not unreasonable to state that downtown has 12-15 million rentable SF. This includes office space in 1-5 floor buildings, as well. Yes, downtown is mostly surface parking. But it actually has a sizable built environment (albeit super spread out). And no that does not include City Hall or the City Hall Annex, but it does include privately owned buildings where the City happens to lease all or most of the space.
The type of employment can also make a difference. Tech office space often has a ridiculously low tenant/space ratio. I've heard of several deals that are sub 1:100 (1 employee per rentable SF). Usable is a whole 'nother story. Most of the office deals I have worked on recently have been tech deals where the floorplan of the space in question is designed for 1:110-1:150. There are still law firms where the ratio is north of 1:500, just to point out the difference.
Therefore, it can be concluded that the reason that many people feel or comment that San Francisco can feel even busier than a Chicago (which is much larger) is that in addition to having pretty high building density (73 million RSF in an area 30% the size of Atlanta's CBD, or probably not too dissimilar as Northbank + Southbank), there is lots of tech employment with high employment densities, AND a very low vacancy rate.
Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.
I get it now. You just don't count major employers in your numbers.
56,000 sounds high, even counting Riverside Ave and the Southbank, unless they have expanded their area a bit (Shands, Riverside, San Marco), but 8000 is equally off the mark for Northbank employment. These numbers are for employees, not some intangible "market participation" index. DVI's numbers are pretty close, though certainly not updated daily:
http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx (http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx)
The 7.3 million SF DVI has even seems small, since it appears they are counting all three areas, and you can easily piece together 5 million SF from the 10 or so biggest offices on the northbank. Granted, some of those have 60+% vacancy rates.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on November 06, 2013, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.
I get it now. You just don't count major employers in your numbers.
56,000 sounds high, even counting Riverside Ave and the Southbank, unless they have expanded their area a bit (Shands, Riverside, San Marco), but 8000 is equally off the mark for Northbank employment. These numbers are for employees, not some intangible "market participation" index. DVI's numbers are pretty close, though certainly not updated daily:
http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx (http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx)
The 7.3 million SF DVI has even seems small, since it appears they are counting all three areas, and you can easily piece together 5 million SF from the 10 or so biggest offices on the northbank. Granted, some of those have 60+% vacancy rates.
No I am not refusing to count anything, the problem is some folks just want to argue absurd numbers. I mean, you just admitted in your post you can see 7mm ft. sq. +/- down there and that there's a greater than 50% vacancy rate, what I originally responded to was a ludicrous claim of 12mm - 15mm ft. sq. It looks like we already agree with each other more than we don't.
the only absurd # posted here is 8,000 workers on the northbank...after all, COJ has nearly 6,000 alone
Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 12:32:36 PM
I think most cities define their downtown somewhat differently, and that probably accounts for the widely varying accounts.
In Jacksonville we actually have several definitions in common use. For most people, "Downtown" means the core area, including only the Northbank east of Hogans Creek, south of about Union/State, and west of Lavilla (or possibly including Lavilla). However, the "Central Business District" is often considered equivalent to Downtown. This comprises a wider area, including the Southbank (approximately north of 95), the Stadium District out to the riverfront docks, and Lavilla and Brooklyn. This includes area beyond what many people would consider the true "downtown", but it has more of an official position. You also regularly hear people who work in Brooklyn or the Southbank say "I work Downtown". Within the CBD I'd wager there really are 38k workers, as it includes those areas.
In one of our research trips downtown, we found in several old city plans and documents that Jacksonville's downtown was defined as running from Myrtle to Talleyrand and from State Street to the River, interestingly it didn't include Brooklyn nor any of the Southbank but then this was around 1925.
Also beware of low-balling the figures in Jacksonville, when I did the article: 'SKYBRIDGE JACKSONVILLE' http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-mar-skybridge-jacksonville , I saw so many conflicting numbers on employment that I did my own footwork and concluded in the Southbank hospital district alone, we are UNDERCOUNTING by several thousand +/- employees. After many calls and calling out individual offices and businesses I came up with 11,900 BEFORE Baptist opened the new tower. The number included just those buildings/employers that would be linked by a Skybridge system.
My take on the numbers based on research (information that an expensive subscription gets me :) ).
Northbank has about 9.5 million SF of office space and is about 19% vacant (this is in about 45 buildings). Note that this does include every building along Riverside Ave from those wholly-owned by Fidelity to the Florida Times Union building and stuff in between, and it includes the CSX building. It even includes City Hall, YMCA annex, MOCA office space, Haydon Burns Library, etc. It does NOT include the City Hall Annex or the Public Library. It does include the old Barnett Bank building (139,000 SF), which of course is 100% vacant. Most of the vacancy is between Everbank Center, BOA Tower, Suntrust tower, 225 Water St, 233 W Duval, and the Old Barnet Bank building.
Southbank has about 2.4 million SF of office space and is about 14% vacant. I count ~10 buildings, with 1.6 million SF between the largest 3. This does NOT include Baptist Hospital or its medical office tower, but apparently the hospital employs just over 4,000, and it does not include School Board. This is an area reaching from the two Dupont office buildings over to just south of 95 where the MOB is.
11.9 million SF in urban core with a blended 18% vacancy rate, so about 9.76 million SF occupied, or at least leased/sub-leased. Here are your employment figures at different employment densities:
1:400 24,398
1:350 27,883
1:300 32,530
1:250 39,036
1:200 48,795
Add: est. employees in City Hall Annex, School Board, the Landing, RCBC and other restaurants, Main Library, off-site city/agency workers, hotels, parking garage operators, the Fed Reserve branch, and the ~4,000 at Baptist Medical Center. Call it 8,500 more employees.
So by my best guess using the 1:300 employment ratio above (factoring in that some space downtown may not be fully occupied but that other employers are "class B" employers with higher employment densities), and adding 8,500 employees as above, I estimate between 40,000-41,000 downtown employees. Of course while the bulk work day jobs and commute in for the 9-5, this also includes people who work evening shifts at hotels, restaurants, and the hospital.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on November 06, 2013, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
Right, but how many of those are single-tenant / never on market (e.g. CSX), or owned and occupied exclusively by COJ? To get to those figures you'd have to include everything that's been taken over as government offices and isn't participating in the market, which is why I said the figure is misleading. And I'm talking the northbank, the south bank was shipyards until the 1960s.
I get it now. You just don't count major employers in your numbers.
56,000 sounds high, even counting Riverside Ave and the Southbank, unless they have expanded their area a bit (Shands, Riverside, San Marco), but 8000 is equally off the mark for Northbank employment. These numbers are for employees, not some intangible "market participation" index. DVI's numbers are pretty close, though certainly not updated daily:
http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx (http://downtownjacksonville.org/DoingBusinessDowntownJacksonville/DemographicsAndStatistics.aspx)
The 7.3 million SF DVI has even seems small, since it appears they are counting all three areas, and you can easily piece together 5 million SF from the 10 or so biggest offices on the northbank. Granted, some of those have 60+% vacancy rates.
See my post above - you and I are on the same page it sounds like.
Quote from: peestandingup on November 06, 2013, 12:03:17 AM
I-10 should start his own suburban jacksonville site, seeing that that seems to be ultimately what he wants. Its available too. Go for it, I-10! https://www.register.com/checkout/available-login.rcmx?domain=suburbanjacksonville.com&term=36&result=available&searchOrigin=homepage&domain=suburbanjacksonville&selectedTLDs=.com&bulkTest=true
LOL that was pretty funny, I admit. Very creative.
Quote from: stephendare on November 07, 2013, 12:12:33 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 06, 2013, 09:37:57 PM
the only absurd # posted here is 8,000 workers on the northbank...after all, COJ has nearly 6,000 alone
great tufsu.
which buildings are they in on the northbank.
Break it down for us.
Which buildings on the northbank have the 6000 full time employees.
FSCJ, Shands and the State offices are all on the springfield side of Union and State Streets.
I really don't want to get in this back and forth discussion...it is so 5 years ago.
That said, most City employees are in the following Northbank buildings:
City Hall
City Hall Annex
Ed Ball Building
Courthouse
Courthouse Annex (old City Hall Annex)
Police Station
and yes, I know the state employees are north of State/Union....but I suggest you check the DIA boundaries....that area is now included as part of "downtown"
Finally, I don't remember any discussion about employees having to be full-time nor does the DVI report make such a claim...but even so, most COJ employees are indeed full-time.
Oh, so we all agree!
Except for tufsu and stephen..
who will never agree...
on anything.
#25 representing.... and as a former COJ employee, I must say I LOVE working downtown in Cbus.
They're limiting it to the very boundaries of downtown/capitol area though. Anything that's just on the other side of that invisible line would raise it to #20 easily.
That downtown Raleigh figure looks VERY fishy. Their downtown alliance says it houses 38K workers, so where is that 122K figure coming from? Even if you include NC State, I seriously doubt it's that much of an increase.
^^^All of the small and mid-size state capitals are fishy, including Austin. As are Brooklyn, NY and Los Angeles. Most everything else seems about right.