What Would You Like Downtown Jacksonville to Become?
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What to do with downtown Jacksonville has always been one of the most popular topics in Metro Jacksonville's discussion boards. Now the time has come for your involvement in determining downtown's future. This week, public workshops will be held for the Downtown Investment Authority's Business Investment and Development Strategy. This implementation tool will set the project priorities for downtown redevelopment between 2014 and 2025.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-nov-what-would-you-like-downtown-jacksonville-to-become
What would I like Downtown Jacksonville to become?
Alive.
The point of no return happens today and will show not only the commissioners of FIND but the world that we are not totally LOST.
Here is part of my list that should be part of the permanent record that was submitted at the 10/23/13 Committee workshop on a Finalized list of short term investment projects.
1. RAM dock needs to be opened when RAM is not open. 24/7 Public Access.
2. USS Adams is positive and needs to move forward.
3. 24/7 Public Access to the floating dock that is currently at Shipyards and legislatively guaranteed.
4. Public Access and economic opportunity 24/7 for a floating dock, kayak launch at Catherine St. at Berkman next to Shipyards.
5. Kayak launch 24/7 Public Access next to Duval county school board and JEA property. Also include a bike rack.
6. 24/7 Public Access to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier. 2010-604
7. 24/7 Public Access at Sydney Geffen Park with a bike rack and a Mayor Brown kayak launch logo
8. Kayak launch and logo at Palmer Terrace Park in Dist. 4
9. 2013-384 an amendment for 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity to Hogans Creek. DIA resolution of support because it is an active piece of legislation.
10. 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity for the current floating dock that is under consideration on the Southbank Riverwalk.
Any of these actions will tell the world to VISIT JACKSONVILLE and our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new highly restricted DIA zone.
I love the idea of a road diet on Riverside Avenue and Forest Street corridor, as well as on Bay Street. It's not often that the car traffic on those roads is extremely heavy, and a road diet would benefit pedestrians and cyclists that frequent both those areas all year round, not just on game days. While a road diet would calm traffic in the specific areas mentioned, it would be beneficial to have it extend out the whole length of Bay Street (where Bay and Myrtle meet up, near the JTA offices) to promote connectivity with JTA bus & skyway services and to help cyclists get from Downtown to Riverside via Myrtle Avenue.
IMO downtown has never suffered from too little planning or regulation. On the contrary, I think making it easier and cheaper to start businesses and develop properties would be the best way to let downtown become whatever it will become.
Here are my list of items.
1) Return all downtown streets to two-way
2) Remove the elevated portion of the Hart approach ramps
3) Remove the elevated portion of Main St through the Southbank
4) Prepare for removal the Skyway by implementing a streetcar network connecting Riverside, Downtown, Springfield, and San Marco
5) Reconfigure the Landing so the focus is on the Street and not the river (for crying out loud - when coming down Laura Street 'Jacksonville' is spelled backwards).
6) Tax surface parking lots out of existence.
Downtown Jax has a lot to offer but it seems the primary objective is to move people through it as fast as possible. We shouldn't be fostering mass exodus every day at 5PM. Downtown should be a place people don't want to leave.
DIA to be on First Coast Connect 89.9 fm at 9
As boring as it sounds, basic maintenance of sidewalks & planters would be nice.
STREETCAR is only a 4-letter word in Jacksonville.
A mixture of San Diego and Baltimore's water front district.
I am a member of several software developer 'meetups' that meet downtown once a month after working hours at two different locations, one on Bay St. and one on Forsyth. Both are in restored historic buildings, and the associated companies themselves (plus other hi-tech) are headquartered there.
The Downtown area is becoming an incubator for hi-tech, and all I can say is it is a convenient, comfortable and interesting place to be either during working hours or afterwards during the evening.
The takeaway I'm getting at is: do whatever you can do to coax people to stay downtown longer, and not just pass through or do the 9-to-5 and leave, the more positive feedback you will get. The area sells itself, just needs more people.
Downtown rocks!
lights, signs, life!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 04, 2013, 09:24:48 AM
STREETCAR is only a 4-letter word in Jacksonville.
While participating in grass-roots efforts in OKC over the last 15 years I can tell you it was a 4 letter word there as well. However, now that a system is being put back in people who were vocal in their opposition just 12 months ago are now complaining they are being left off the initial route. All you need is a 1 to 2 mile starter system and let human nature take over.
Run a system from Friendship Fountain down San Marco Blvd to San Marco Square and watch how many people all of a sudden want it. When you catch fire with enthusiasm people will come from miles away just to watch it burn.
Regarding San Marco, you won't be able to get a streetcar across FEC's tracks at grade. If you're trying to tie San Marco Square in, a short extension of the Skyway to Atlantic Boulevard makes a lot of sense and would be cheaper.
The Skyway has a fundamental flaw - it separates people from the street. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this into a streetcar thread so I'll just leave my comments as they are and give someone else the last word on the subject.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on November 04, 2013, 08:38:14 AM
IMO downtown has never suffered from too little planning or regulation. On the contrary, I think making it easier and cheaper to start businesses and develop properties would be the best way to let downtown become whatever it will become.
This. When discussing downtown Jacksonville, most MetroJax threads seemingly turn into people bitching about a long list of alphabet soup agencies. The city has a 30+ year terrible track record trying to revitalize downtown.
The problem is that all these past efforts are from the top down and the next person at the top doesn't share the same vision as previous people at the top - so nothing ever gets done. Real change has to start at the bottom with the citizens and then have local politicians and civic leaders adopt what the people want done. In the politician/activist relationship the entity that doesn't change is the activist.
^Great point. So true, so true.
Good grief libertarians....Planning does not equal regulation...at all. Zoning does sure, but there is a lot more to the economic development/redevelopment/long range planning aspect of planning than just zoning. I'm an economic development/redevelopment planner and if I was DIA director there are some things I would deregulate. As to the whole liberterian notion of just let whatever be will be and let the free market do its thing. Sure, the public sector should try to facilitate the ease of business for the private sector...but we are also talking about how millions and millions of public dollars will be spent downtown. Without a proper long range vision of how to spend that money in the interest of the public and economy, we're just blowing money and wasting opportunities.
Downtown has always had leadership problems and structural problems, not a problem with "too much planning". In fact, I think most reasonable people would agree that its had a too little planning problem or poor quality planning problems. A quality planner, economic developer, or real estate guru should be able to make Downtown substanially better than it is. With help from involved citizens, organizations, and the private sector of course.
Free market? The free market left the building with the American Housing Act of 1949 and the Federal Highway Act of 1956 - and never looked back.
Quote from: Kerry on November 04, 2013, 10:30:39 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 04, 2013, 09:24:48 AM
STREETCAR is only a 4-letter word in Jacksonville.
While participating in grass-roots efforts in OKC over the last 15 years I can tell you it was a 4 letter word there as well. However, now that a system is being put back in people who were vocal in their opposition just 12 months ago are now complaining they are being left off the initial route. All you need is a 1 to 2 mile starter system and let human nature take over.
Run a system from Friendship Fountain down San Marco Blvd to San Marco Square and watch how many people all of a sudden want it. When you catch fire with enthusiasm people will come from miles away just to watch it burn.
So Kerry, how did you get involved in the OKC streetcar efforts? I was in the original MAPS tour groups where we did some of the brainstorming that became the OKC of today.
Lake is right about San Marco, the ONLY way to do surface rail on the southbank is to head due east roughly along the I-95/River alignment toward Beach, Hogan, Town Center etc.. Or get trackage rights over the FEC RY/IF/When the new FRA/FTA rule changes happen. This is in the works BTW folks, bringing our passenger/freight urban/intercity mix more in line with the EU.
I first got involved with rail in OKC back in around 1999. I built the first website for a grass-roots group of people who were trying to raise awareness to bring rail back to OKC after the 'downtown circulator' in the original MAPS project got switched to rubber wheeled replica trollies.
What was the economic benefit of the rubber wheeled replica trolleys in OKC? Did they spur any TOD?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 04, 2013, 01:53:34 PM
What was the economic benefit of the rubber wheeled replica trolleys in OKC? Did they spur any TOD?
LOL - no they didn't spur any TOD. They have since been discontinued.
Thanks. I just wanted it posted for everyone here to see. I can't believe people here still see PCTs as a serious form of mass transit.
^^Not everyone. Just your elected officials.
Personally I would like to see Klutho Park restored and Main made two way from Springfield to the Landing. I think a streetcar line is a must. All of this is going to have to be community enforced. 50 yrs of stupid politicians (excluding few), I don't think we are going to see much change from anyone above including JTA.
I don't think we should ever underestimate the general public. In 4ish years I have seen MJ work its way into so much. Great job and this is how it will get done.
Really people, i think if i was not taxed so much,then i would love to go
and maybe even live downtown.
^^really yellowvette?? Taxed so much?? I received my tax notice today and yeap. Just as I thought I will once again pay LESS in taxes than the previous year despite the tax rate increase!! This years tax bill will be approximately $800 less than when it peaked in the mid 2000s. So no I really do not feel I am overtaxed.
I don't like any ideas of forcing congested traffic through a bottle neck 'forcing' people to enjoy downtown. People are gonna go where they want to anyway. So I don't buy those 'Expressway mass exodus out of the ghost town core' argument. Hell, you can make State and Union into one lane streets, and all you'll do is create a traffic nightmare that will frustrate people, and the businesses bottomlines will get no more in the black.
^Lakeland converted a one-way street pair into two-way streets in the early 2000s. They actually took over control of the streets from FDOT. In their case, a bypass was constructed on the north end of downtown to remove through traffic from downtown. As a response, business conditions have improved in downtown. No new development has happened along the new bypass highway.
Quote from: I-10east on November 04, 2013, 03:46:40 PM
I don't like any ideas of forcing congested traffic through a bottle neck 'forcing' people to enjoy downtown. People are gonna go where they want to anyway. So I don't buy those 'Expressway mass exodus out of the ghost town core' argument. Hell, you can make State and Union into one lane streets, and all you'll do is create a traffic nightmare that will frustrate people, and the businesses bottomlines will get no more in the black.
A simple Google search will reveal countless examples that say otherwise.
http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/ (http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/)
Or you can just go back two weeks to a pretty compelling example discussed on MetroJax
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html)
A CRA should be developed without a 'that won't work in Jacksonville' attitude and perhaps more use of the magical urban textbook called 'the internet'.
Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much. I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan. Focus on a small area in and around Laura St.
Quote from: Kerry on November 04, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
I first got involved with rail in OKC back in around 1999. I built the first website for a grass-roots group of people who were trying to raise awareness to bring rail back to OKC after the 'downtown circulator' in the original MAPS project got switched to rubber wheeled replica trollies.
I don't remember without looking it up, what year we were all hauled into downtown OKC from various towns and cities all around the core. We were part of a 'brainstorming' bus tour as part of the MAPS project. Had a great lunch at Cattlemen's, in the stockyards and got what was probably the first 'historical tour' of automobile alley. Our bus was full as were the others and I know many other officials from Edmond, Guthrie, Cashion, Crescent, Kingfisher, Okarchee etc. had a great time. I remember everyone laughing when I suggested they take out the Postal Sectional Center south of I-40 downtown and create a green way park from downtown to the OKC Union Station. Most of my life as a city councilman seems to revolve around the May 3 Tornadoes, and the rescue efforts or the mandatory training we all went through with FEMA and the NWS school when it was all over.
For the record they got that at least part right when the freeway was removed and the Postal Center was razed, but then the idiots at ODOT (I presume) put the freeway along the railroad forever killing much hope of ever using Union Station again for anything but a two track flag stop.... For the Jaxson's, OKC had two late era stations that served the railroads up until Amtrak. Union Station served the Rock Island, Frisco and Katy, while the Santa Fe Station served the Santa Fe.
Jacksonville has so much already in place;
Jax has A beautiful downtown river - OKC had to virtually create one
Jax has A stunning riverwalk - OKC had to create one (canal walk)
Jax has A fixed route mass transit EL downtown - OKC will have to build their own
Jax has a 'turn-key transportation center' location - OKC will have to create one
Yet with all of these advantages, if it were a race, there is no contest as to which city is on the move and which is stalled. OKC wins that contest by miles.
Posted the same idea on the other thread about making State and Union two ways, then saw it here. Great minds... And we already HAVE a bypass on the north end of downtown. Martin Luther King Parkway...formerly 20th Street Expressway. We don't even have to build one.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 04, 2013, 03:53:15 PM
^Lakeland converted a one-way street pair into two-way streets in the early 2000s. They actually took over control of the streets from FDOT. In their case, a bypass was constructed on the north end of downtown to remove through traffic from downtown. As a response, business conditions have improved in downtown. No new development has happened along the new bypass highway.
Sounds like it worked out good for Lakeland. I'm not familiar with DT Lakeland, but I believe that every city is unique, and that should be taken into account. I used that term 'expressway' kinda mockingly; Personally, I don't think they (State & Union) are expressways, not with traffic lights every block. People always think that the timed green lights for flowing traffic is a bad thing; That's what gets the traffic out of the way, in fact actually making it safer for pedestrians; Those same 'speedy cars' are often backed up several blocks on red lights, which allows pedestrians safely to cross. State and Union are on the fringes of DT, which is a blue collar strip, filled with cheap fast food restaurants etc. Most of that corridor area is filled up anyway. I doubt if those streets ever become anything like Laura, nor do I think they should.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 04, 2013, 04:18:54 PM
A simple Google search will reveal countless examples that say otherwise.
http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/ (http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/)
Or you can just go back two weeks to a pretty compelling example discussed on MetroJax
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html)
A CRA should be developed without a 'that won't work in Jacksonville' attitude and perhaps more use of the magical urban textbook called 'the internet'.
I don't consider State and Union. 'urban highways' so the first link is offbase IMO; Maybe if they changed that corridor to all flashing yellow lights, then I would agree. The second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL. Maybe a 'that won't work in Jax' mentality could be hindering this city in various other situations, but an 'one size fits all' way of thinking could be just as detrimental.
One think that many urbanists have been beating me over the head is the surface parking within the core argument; I used to be a lil' stubborn with that, but now I will agree anyone who mentions that to the utmost! IMO we should worry about the inner core areas, and not the very few efficient one way streets this city has DT, expressway ramps, and that sort of thing. I think that the two way Laura Street was a success because it's a pedestrian friendly two lane street that doesn't lead directly to a major highway; I don't think that Main St would have that same effect, and State & Union two ways would be a complete disaster IMO.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on November 04, 2013, 04:20:56 PM
Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much. I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan. Focus on a small area in and around Laura St.
I agree with this quote; while Jax is a "big city" at the center of a metro of 1.4 million people, the core functions more like a small town than a big city. Once you reach the scale of SF, Chicago, DC, Philadelphia, let alone Manhattan, one ways work really effectively for vehicular and bike traffic and the pedestrians are still there en masse. However, at Jacksonville's level where there aren't yet any pedestrians to speak of, traffic calming measures will have more of an effect. We simply don't have the wide busy sidewalks or the pedestrian culture to point to otherwise.
Jax is much more on the level of Greenville, Lakeland, Nashville, Memphis, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, Buffalo, and others and I believe that in each of these cities "downscaling" auto infrastructure and traffic calming measures have proven effective at spurring better integrated development and pedestrian activity.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on November 04, 2013, 04:20:56 PM
Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much. I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan. Focus on a small area in and around Laura St.
Exactly, I totally agree. Maybe you don't agree with me on the whole State & Union thing, but the inner core is exactly what we should be concentrating on.
QuoteThe second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL.
So, skipped right over the example of Lancaster, CA?
If you actually read the discussion instead of just looking at the thread title and spouting off, it was more to do with stimulating economic activity from road diets.. not roundabouts.
See:
Quote"downscaling" auto infrastructure and traffic calming measures have proven effective at spurring better integrated development and pedestrian activity.
Ferris wheels and that kind of nonsense won't do much if there isn't a 'there' there.. so to speak. Five Points or San Marco Square aren't successful b/c they each have a giant aquarium. They are successful because there is a variety of complementary uses within a pedestrian friendly setting.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 01:15:31 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on November 04, 2013, 04:20:56 PM
Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much. I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan. Focus on a small area in and around Laura St.
Exactly, I totally agree. Maybe you don't agree with me on the whole State & Union thing, but the inner core is exactly what we should be concentrating on.
I don't think there's an effort to down size State & Union. That corridor has continued to be overlooked at this point.
However, your point about focusing initially on a small compact area has merit. What we call downtown is spread out over two miles. Many of the "high profile" sites people want to see something happen with are so isolated from everything else, we could have billions of investment and still not end up with a vibrant walkable setting by 2025. When you think about it, we have had billions in investment over the last 30 years. Yet we're still wondering how to revitalize downtown today.
The number one issue IMO is that Downtown Jacksonville is not a viable real estate market.
Property is too expensive for what you get and the cost of getting that overpriced property up to code is a deal killer.
The city needs to come up with a way to give property owners or tenants a grace period to address code issues that are not ADA or life safety related.
Could the city help finance the cost of getting these old buildings up to code?
It is cheaper to tear down must of the buildings downtown and build new. That is a problem.
Quoteand the cost of getting that overpriced property up to code is a deal killer.
Completely agree.
^^+2 And that is why COJ needs to step it up and make sure the area for the USS Adams is ready to go.
I think the City spending any money on the USS Adams would be a waste of time and resources. If the Adams group can't raise the money needed by themselves privately (and they haven't even come close after years of trying), then taxpayers certainly shouldn't be subsidizing the effort.
That's the kind of one-trick poney mentality that has doomed downtown for decades.
Let me correct that for you...
Property is too expensive for what you get and the cost of getting that overpriced property up to code is a deal killer at current rental rates.
Create an area people want to live in and market rates will move up. For all the real and perceived negatives of living downtown - residential is running at 96% occupancy. All Jacksonville needs is for some local developers to break out of their suburban mindsets. In another city that I have been involved with downtown developers are treated like rock stars. The have guest appearance on local radio stations, do web chats through the local newspaper, are recognized out on the street, and have their own vocal fan base. They got that way by transforming the city. Jacksonville needs developers like that.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 09:03:51 AM
Create an area people want to live in and market rates will move up. For all the real and perceived negatives of living downtown - residential is running at 96% occupancy.
The majority of that is subsidized. Attracting residents to downtown isn't the problem. The problem is finding people willing to set their money on fire to allow that to happen for the greater good of the community. To create that environment, we'll need to figure out how to resolve the financial gap that keeps the private sector heading to places like King Street, Five Points, Hendricks Avenue and the Southside as opposed to seriously considering DT. This is one of the reasons, you probably shouldn't be in a mad rush to tear down abandoned publicly owned buildings like the old city hall building. That's a structure that might make more sense leveraging for adaptive reuse, than spending millions to demolish and seed with grass.
QuoteAll Jacksonville needs is for some local developers to break out of their suburban mindsets. In another city that I have been involved with downtown developers are treated like rock stars. The have guest appearance on local radio stations, do web chats through the local newspaper, are recognized out on the street, and have their own vocal fan base. They got that way by transforming the city. Jacksonville needs developers like that.
Developers will invest where they stand to make money. Many of the same developers building in Jax's burbs also have investments in the core areas of other communities. We'll need to find ways to plug the financing gaps as well as take advantage of the assets in place and people already living in close proximity of DT in the short term.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 09:20:49 AM
We'll need to find ways to plug the financing gaps as well as take advantage of the assets in place and people already living in close proximity of DT in the short term.
Any idea how to do that. OKC uses TIF funding to cover that gap and it appears to have worked very well. A major downtown project is announced there about once a month. Some of the more recent developments have said they don't even need the TIF funding now. Does downtown Jax have a TIF district?
Quote from: fieldafm on November 05, 2013, 08:56:11 AM
I think the City spending any money on the USS Adams would be a waste of time and resources. If the Adams group can't raise the money needed by themselves privately (and they haven't even come close after years of trying), then taxpayers certainly shouldn't be subsidizing the effort.
That's the kind of one-trick poney mentality that has doomed downtown for decades.
I think I agree with this. Seems everything like this is privately funded elsewhere, though the City may allow the non-profit to dock its ship along its land so long as group pays for costs, upkeep, insurance, and marketing.
What happens if the group can't pay for the upkeep (will ticket sales really keep pace)? How much of the waterfront will be taken up by the ship that could be used for other purposes? I think I'd rather see a marina or public access/ramp.
I have a lot of respect for the Navy and its role in Jax but I am not sure the USS Adams is the panacea some think it to be.
^I thought the USS Adams was being sold as a privately funded project? Has that changed? I'd love to see them be able to successfully pull it off privately but it kind of works like horse carriage rides and duck tours. These types of things are most successful when they're added to environments that already have a lot of pedestrian activity. Alone, they tend to struggle.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 09:34:45 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 09:20:49 AM
We'll need to find ways to plug the financing gaps as well as take advantage of the assets in place and people already living in close proximity of DT in the short term.
Any idea how to do that. OKC uses TIF funding to cover that gap and it appears to have worked very well. A major downtown project is announced there about once a month. Some of the more recent developments have said they don't even need the TIF funding now. Does downtown Jax have a TIF district?
There are two in DT. The Northbank's is in the red and the Southbank's generates roughly $1.5 million per year. The last couple of years, there was no project identified for the Southbank, so the council took that money and used it in the general fund.
As for how to take advantage of certain things...
Residents in neighboring communities - invest in improving multimodal connectivity between downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. Everything from better local bus service, BRT, streetcar, Skyway operations, bike lanes, multiuse paths and bike share should be game here. In the short term (0-2 years), you can coordinate land use policy around Skyway stations to encourage development. You can also modify bus operations to have BRT style routes operating between downtown and adjacent popular districts like Five Points, Park n King, San Marco Square, etc. You can also restripe existing roadways to enhance bike connectivity and safety in the area.
This essentially means acknowledging that mobility/connectivity is an essential ingredient to the success of downtown and the urban core. In the long term (+2 years), put the PCT trolley idea in its grave and realize the validity of fixed transit as an economic development tool. Funding can be achieved in several ways. Certain components could be included in the CRA. However, you can also take advantage of initiatives like the Mobility Fee and JTA's ability to win federal money.
Anyway, the goal here would be to get those residents using these facilities to travel between each other. For example, you could work at UF Health and live in San Marco. You could live in Springfield and enjoy a meal in Five Points. You could reside in San Marco and enjoy a night out on the town in Downtown. You could work in Downtown and live in Durkeeville without being forced to drive an automobile or pay $100 a month for parking.
With downtown sitting in the middle, the increased connectivity and visibility along these corridors will create economic development opportunity along the entire path, which downtown just happens to be a major part of. In the long run, you end up with one large unified urban district. Kind of in the manner where you can walk from Back Bay to the North End in Boston and not even realize you've gone through multiple neighborhoods, outside of the change in architectural styles of the buildings.
Existing Assets - This one is pretty simple. Focus in the short term on improving them as opposed to worrying about properties like the JEA parcel. It's not as "sexy" as a Disneyland at the Shipyards or a zip line over the river but quick change can be accomplished for less money by getting places like Hemming Plaza right or better exposing existing retail to the street. How do you fund them? Take the same millions you'd earmark for demolishing the old city hall annex and apply it to a ton of less costly, low hanging fruit items sitting out there. On the Southbank, you still have $1.5 million annually coming in to incrementally improve that side of the river. Use it in a way, which increases property values over the long run....meaning you'll end up with more money annually to continue to reinvest.
Plugging Financial Gaps - This is the one they hired Wallace to play a leading role. There's a variety of options here as well. Everything from incentives, to tax credits, land deals, etc. could be at play. Much of this should probably be looked at on an individual project basis. You could also steal a page out of Detroit's book where you start paying people to move to certain areas you desire development in. Or Philly's book, where you go with a full blown 10-year tax abatement program for everybody willing to come in and invest. Again, lots of options worth considering.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 05, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
QuoteThe second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL.
So, skipped right over the example of Lancaster, CA?
If you actually read the discussion instead of just looking at the thread title and spouting off, it was more to do with stimulating economic activity from road diets.. not roundabouts.
Well, the thread title is named 'Murray Hill roundabout' just saying....Yup, eat away at road lanes with 'stimulating' glorified pedestrian islands in the middle of State and Union that no one would ever use; It's all an effort against the evil automobile, right? One size fits all, it stimulates a city no matter what....
Quote from: deathstar on November 04, 2013, 03:12:27 AM
What would I like Downtown Jacksonville to become?
Alive.
Id like to see more density, and transit connections to Springfield, Riverside, San Marco & DerkeeVille
More jobs, schools and after hours locations in downtown instead of in the suburbs.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on November 05, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
QuoteThe second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL.
So, skipped right over the example of Lancaster, CA?
If you actually read the discussion instead of just looking at the thread title and spouting off, it was more to do with stimulating economic activity from road diets.. not roundabouts.
Well, the thread title is named 'Murray Hill roundabout' just saying....Yup, eat away at road lanes with 'stimulating' glorified pedestrian islands in the middle of State and Union that no one would ever use; It's all an effort against the evil automobile, right? One size fits all, it stimulates a city no matter what....
One size doesn't fit all. That's something Jax has struggled with accepting. It's been very detrimental to many neighborhoods in our city. With that said, I don't believe there is any real push to right size State & Union. That entire corridor is largely ignored despite it having the potential to be a major gateway and retail zone for the urban core. At the very least, we should seriously reevaluate land use and zoning regulations along that stretch (especially the blocks between State and Orange).
QuoteWell, the thread title is named 'Murray Hill roundabout' just saying....Yup, eat away at road lanes with 'stimulating' glorified pedestrian islands in the middle of State and Union that no one would ever use; It's all an effort against the evil automobile, right? One size fits all, it stimulates a city no matter what....
Sorry your reading comprehension is poor. Get past the name of the thread (as the actual content went in a different direction, you'd see that if you read all 4 pages) and avoid putting words in my mouth (never advocated for putting pedestrian islands in the middle of State and Union)... and then perhaps you'll start to put your critical thinking skills into use.
I actually posted examples and research, it would be helpful to read them before you start claiming they are wrong.
^^^Blah blah blah, typical condescending blabbering about nothing. I posted what I was talking about, then YOU interjected with the offbase links. Maybe your reading comprehension isn't all cracked up like it was meant to be either, since you strayed so far from what I was talking about. Here's a thought, have discussion without haphazardly pulling up links. Get to the point, no one likes deciphering through multiple pages of a thread to find out what your point is.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 01:09:36 AM
IMO we should worry about the inner core areas, and not the very few efficient one way streets this city has DT, expressway ramps, and that sort of thing. I think that the two way Laura Street was a success because it's a pedestrian friendly two lane street that doesn't lead directly to a major highway; I don't think that Main St would have that same effect, and State & Union two ways would be a complete disaster IMO.
With a name like I-10east I shouldn't be surprised in your opposition to removing auto-only transportation systems. I'll just leave this here for anyone who wants to read it.
http://fireflyliving.com/2013/10/28/why-crumbling-urban-freeways-should-be-torn-down-and-no-new-ones-should-be-built/
Great article. Eventually, we'll have the same opportunities to explore with the Hart Bridge Expressway. The Main Street Bridge expressway on the Southbank is another. When these things get to the age of replacement, do we really want to dump hundreds of millions into rebuilding them? Or can we leverage those reconstruction dollars into something that actually economically enhances the properties they fly over?
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 01:48:12 PM
^^^Blah blah blah, typical condescending blabbering about nothing. I posted what I was talking about, then YOU interjected with the offbase links. Maybe your reading comprehension isn't all cracked up like it was meant to be either, since you strayed so far from what I was talking about. Here's a thought, have discussion without haphazardly pulling up links. Get to the point, no one likes deciphering through multiple pages of a thread to find out what your point is.
Your depth of genious is awe inspiring.
^^^Thank you. I'm a little disappointed that you didn't post a link within that sarcastic response.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 02:13:58 PM
Great article. Eventually, we'll have the same opportunities to explore with the Hart Bridge Expressway. The Main Street Bridge expressway on the Southbank is another. When these things get to the age of replacement, do we really want to dump hundreds of millions into rebuilding them? Or can we leverage those reconstruction dollars into something that actually economically enhances the properties they fly over?
I've long complained that downtown's streets seem designed to make it easy to get out, but not in, let alone "within". It's sad that Bay Street becomes a freeway out immediately after every football game and that you can't even take Main Street from the Main Street Bridge. Fixing problems like that should really be a much higher priority.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 02:08:56 PM
With a name like I-10east I shouldn't be surprised in your opposition to removing auto-only transportation systems.
Many urban 'auto-only transportation systems' have ZERO effect on pedestrians, and autos on the ground, like the Hart Bridge ramp for example. The MTA subway in NYC and the CTA in Chi-Town have tracks above streets with no interference, but when an useful roadway is overhead, somehow it's demonized.
I get it though, you hate cars and think that everyone should ride public transit; It's that diehard urbanist agenda. I'm not anti-transit, but there's always room for middle-ground, and not an extreme way of thinking for every situation. We need to starting fixing up the core, instead of worrying about tearing down the DT ramps (where's the money coming from BTW?) that have no negative effect on the core; Not unless a quick alternate way to get across the river VIA automobile is a bad thing...
Just think, if we had used the 295 eastern beltway as the replacement for I-95 through Jax we wouldn't have needed to rebuild the 'Big-I' interchange, the Fuller Warren Bridge, the Trout River Bridge, the overland bridge, etc.
^^^That's a very extreme way of thinking IMO. All of the major cities that I been though have major highways nearby; For every one that doesn't have a major interstate (not local) nearby, I probably can name about three major cities that has one.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
^^^That's a very extreme way of thinking IMO. All of the major cities that I been though have major highways nearby; For every one that doesn't have a major interstate (not local) nearby, I probably can name about three major cities that has one.
Actually, tearing a huge path through residential neighborhoods is also pretty extreme. And then doubling down and spending billions more to rebuild it is pretty extreme.
^^^You think that Jacksonville has an inferiority complex now! Try making it a true ghost city with no skyline views from the major highways. The only city I can think of where the highway goes through a forest of tress instead of seeing a skyline is Tallahassee; Rather unimpressive 'view' of forest instead of maybe seeing, I dunno the capitol! I get it Lunican though, Henry Ford was the Devil himself....
Tallahassee's downtown is literally at the highest point in all of Leon County. So, you're quite wrong.
(http://cache.marriott.com/propertyimages/t/tlhfi/phototour/tlhfi_phototour22.jpg?Log=1)
If you go and read the article, DT Tally only has 1,644 less workers than DT Jax. That's pretty sad.
DT Tallahassee actually looks like an urban environment, Jacksonville could learn A LOT from a city that is about 1/4 of it's size. That's a sad state of affairs.
^^^Typical 'quick to jump the gun' and 'come to the defense of' reaction. I was talking about views from major highways, which is I-10 for Tally. So post that capitol view from I-10.
Quote from: Lunican on November 05, 2013, 03:11:40 PM
Just think, if we had used the 295 eastern beltway as the replacement for I-95 through Jax we wouldn't have needed to rebuild the 'Big-I' interchange, the Fuller Warren Bridge, the Trout River Bridge, the overland bridge, etc.
I've been saying this since I found out they were rebuilding I-95 through downtown. Like you said - the east beltway should have been rebranded I-95 with the existing I-95 re-entering the existing street grid at Atlantic Blvd on the Southside (which would have been rebranded as I-795) and on the Northside would have re-entered the street grid at I-10 and been rebranded I-995. Then all that land downtown could have been reclaimed and put back on the tax rolls. Oh well, opportunity missed.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:05:23 PM
^^^Typical 'quick to jump the gun' and 'come to the defense of' reaction. I was talking about views from major highways, which is I-10 for Tally. So post that capitol view from I-10.
What does the view of DT Tallahassee from I-10 have, literally, anything to do with anything being discussed here?
^^^Wow, because that's what I was talking about, through the discussion with Lunican. Yet, I have the reading comprehension problems....
I guess the difference of opinion comes from what role downtown should play in the larger context of the city. Some think it should be played in, lived in, and worked in, while some think it is best viewed as a piece of art to be admired from a distance - but never touched. I have found that people who support interstates are of the 'art collection' persuasion. Like an art gallery, is it little wonder many downtown close at 6 PM?
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
Some think it should be played in, lived in, and worked in, while some think it is best viewed as a piece of art to be admired from a distance - but never touched.
LOL, yep interstates are the death of cities. That explains why Atlanta is so dead. Ya learn something new everyday, thanks for the excellent feedback.
^^^I didn't say that.
^^^I truly believe that yall two are doppelgangers.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:44:40 PM
^^^I truly believe that yall two are doppelgangers.
That shows again, how much you genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.
^^^Let me see, both are kinda condescending, both are so quick to jump the gun; Yep, I'm pretty much on point with that assessment.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:27:25 PM
LOL, yep interstates are the death of cities. That explains why Atlanta is so dead. Ya learn something new everyday, thanks for the excellent feedback.
I work in downtown Atlanta one week a month. Next time you go there compare the 'liveliness' of the east side of the downtown connector to the west side of the downtown connector. After that, hangout for about an hour in no mans land between downtown and midtown where the connector cuts through. Then come back and we can talk some more about downtown Atlanta and the impact of the downtown connector.
Edit - scratch that. I'll just chalk this topic up to "some people will have be dragged kicking and screaming into the future."
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 04:48:57 PM
I work in downtown Atlanta one week a month. Next time you go there compare the 'liveliness' of the east side of the downtown connector to the west side of the downtown connector. After that, hangout for about an hour in no mans land between downtown and midtown where the connector cuts through. Then come back and we can talk some more about downtown Atlanta and the impact of the downtown connector.
Sounds like you are very familiar with ATL. All I know is that the area where I-75 cuts through the core is pretty lively. So I wouldn't equate highways with causing the death of a city's core; If you was to say that, practically every city would be dead. ATL looks very nice (esp at night) going through I-75, and of course that area filled with high rise galore is alive as well.
Quote from: stephendare on November 05, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
just because you have to be talked down to doesnt mean that anyone else is actually condescending. Perhaps not using faux ignorance to get attention would be an idea.
Of course your highness Sir Stephendare.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 04:48:57 PM
Edit - scratch that. I'll just chalk this topic up to "some people will have be dragged kicking and screaming into the future."
???
Quote from: stephendare on November 05, 2013, 04:58:41 PM
Dont know if you know this, but actual people live in and have to pay for them.
Who would've known?
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 04:48:57 PM
I work in downtown Atlanta one week a month. Next time you go there compare the 'liveliness' of the east side of the downtown connector to the west side of the downtown connector. After that, hangout for about an hour in no mans land between downtown and midtown where the connector cuts through. Then come back and we can talk some more about downtown Atlanta and the impact of the downtown connector.
Sounds like you are very familiar with ATL. All I know is that the area where I-75 cuts through the core is pretty lively. So I wouldn't equate highways with causing the death of a city's core; If you was to say that, practically every city would be dead. ATL looks very nice (esp at night) going through I-75, and of course that area filled with high rise galore is alive as well.
^I go up to Atlanta about 3 or 4 times a year for business. It's pretty dead on Peachtree where it crosses I-75/85. If I recall, it's a small pocket of surface lots and little activity, with a higher than normal presence of vagrants in the near vicinity.
^^^Point taken. Although I have my doubts that the entire corridor of I-75 in ATL is dead. I understand that it isn't cool to agree with anything I-10east says on MJ, oh well...
^Let's just say most of the frontage along I-75 through downtown and Midtown is not ripe with a lot of pedestrian foot traffic. Your pockets of walkability tend to take place around streets that are more human scaled.
Can we please have a discussion w/o the bickering?
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 04:27:25 PM
LOL, yep interstates are the death of cities. That explains why Atlanta is so dead. Ya learn something new everyday, thanks for the excellent feedback.
I work in downtown Atlanta one week a month. Next time you go there compare the 'liveliness' of the east side of the downtown connector to the west side of the downtown connector. After that, hangout for about an hour in no mans land between downtown and midtown where the connector cuts through. Then come back and we can talk some more about downtown Atlanta and the impact of the downtown connector.
Edit - scratch that. I'll just chalk this topic up to "some people will have be dragged kicking and screaming into the future."
Are you talking about the North Ave section near the Connector?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 05:02:40 PM
^I go up to Atlanta about 3 or 4 times a year for business. It's pretty dead on Peachtree where it crosses I-75/85. If I recall, it's a small pocket of surface lots and little activity, with a higher than normal presence of vagrants in the near vicinity.
Thats the north part of the grady curve over by the civic center and civic center Marta station. There is nothing really ever poppin over there.
First, I don't know if downtown Atlanta is even a good comparison to Jacksonville. Strike that, I know its not.
Downtown is to the West of I-75/85 and to the East is Druid Hills, Virginia Highlands and Decatur. All these neighborhoods have had connections to downtown via mass transit(i.e. marta) for about 15+ years.
Second, yes, there has been some development in the last ten years adjacent to the expressway corridor but it was infill at a point where there was nothing left further away that was economical.
So, yes, development will find its way next to an expressway but only as a last and final resort.
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 05:06:54 PM
^^^Point taken. Although I have my doubts that the entire corridor of I-75 in ATL is dead. I understand that it isn't cool to agree with anything I-10east says on MJ, oh well...
I have spent most of the last 6 years working in Atlanta and can tell you first hand that if you want to fear for your life hangout for a few minutes along any interstate corridor after dark, and in same cases at noon. There is some scary stuff going on underneath those elevated freeways. A few months ago I wanted to go to Gladys Knight's Chicken and Waffles. Checking the ole' watch, calculating how long it would take me to eat, cross referencing sunset, and taking a look at the local population - I decided to walk down and get a Vortex burger.
Downtown Atlanta is very lively after sunset but the contrast between the I-75/85 connector corridor and other parts of downtown/midtown is startling. One area where it isn't so bad though is 5th St where GT spills over into Midtown. However, you can't see the connector from 5th St thanks to a 200' wide overpass with high walls.
^^^Fair enough. I'm not gonna act like I'm an Atlanta expert.
No worries I-10east. I just wanted to set the record straight.
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 09:34:45 AM
Does downtown Jax have a TIF district?
Take it from an old COWBOY Kerry, by and large, Jaxson's can't even spell 'TIF.'
My view (one that is not as well informed as others might be) is that Jacksonville seems to be caught between wanting more and offering less. To be more specific, Jacksonville offers low cost of living and low taxes, which draws people and companies here for that reason. On the flip side, our residents are wanting more amenities, entertainment and overall higher quality of living. Most people know what makes a lively city on the surface; entertainment districts, museums, aquariums, ferris wheels, etc. These would all be great for Jax, but of course how will it be paid for? Can Jacksonville come up with an 'indefinite' better Jacksonville plan that takes a slight increase on sales tax to pay for some of these amenities? I know this might not be feasible, since even the mobility fee has kinda flopped, but as citizens should we not be willing to help pay for these projects? Where do we find the middle ground between low taxes/cost of living and having a vibrant city? I love Jacksonville, it's a comfortable, diverse, beautiful and always interesting place to live. But I do recognize that we have our shortcomings, one of which is that there is always a lot of talk with out nearly as much follow through. I wish Mr. Wallace all the best and hopefully he can get some things stirred up. Anyways, just some rambling and semi-deep thoughts....
Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Kerry on November 05, 2013, 02:08:56 PM
With a name like I-10east I shouldn't be surprised in your opposition to removing auto-only transportation systems.
Many urban 'auto-only transportation systems' have ZERO effect on pedestrians, and autos on the ground, like the Hart Bridge ramp for example....
Not to start this whole stupid yours is smaller then mine argument again, but herein is an EXCELLENT POINT, I don't suspect I-10E or anyone else thought this through.
Auto-only urban transportation systems have ZERO effect on pedestrians (purely a perception BTW) because they are paid for with tax payer dollars and built, NOT FOR PEOPLE - BUT FOR VEHICLES. Just today off US-1 in Nocatee I noticed signs saying 'NO PEDESTRIANS, BICYCLES, MOPEDS OR MOTOR DRIVEN BIKES ALLOWED'. Think about this for a minute. You are locked into the slowest and second slowest means of transport in an urban core, IE: foot and bike, and rather then being able to take the shortest route, you are literally limited to just two places to cross the river, and one direct road from the beaches to the core.
Try walking from Publix at the Town Center to Barnes and Noble, or from Barnes and Noble to Costco and the truth will smack you upside the head like a frozen mullet. We are literally taxing people in order to ban them from safety and logical pathways and handing those same routes over to the tin lizzies.
Does this mean rubber tired transport is bad? Not at all (though we all know secretly that it IS satanic) LOL. But the concepts being advanced here are on the cutting edge of modern urban thought. Removing a lane here and there, adding a tree, a bench, a fountain, a bike lane or ciclovia schedule actually increases the retail and restaurant receipts. The quality of life goes up, and the stresses go down, when a easy solution is presented to people rather then restricted to machines.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/ScreenShot2013-11-05at104042PM_zps18badcf2.png)
Ciclovia is a regularly scheduled day or weekend where certain streets across the core are closed to motor vehicles, it usually starts with local concerts, fitness sessions and is followed by a mass migration OUTDOORS.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/65364b8e-6b92-4412-bcb1-5271f818e5e5_zpsf8620ab5.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/ScreenShot2013-11-%3Cbr%20/%3E05at103643PM_zpsa17b7ec2.png)
This is the start of Ciclovia on a Bogota street.
HOW HARD WOULD IT BE? Imagine if Jacksonville could equal some of Colombia's 'complete streets?' Viewing some of these photos of my other 'home' and one starts to understand why I've said, 'i went to Colombia looking for the 3rd World and found it when my plane returned to Jacksonville.' (all photos Bogota)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/ScreenShot2013-11-05at103912PM_zpseab22dcc.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/ScreenShot2013-11-05at104441PM_zpsd2b28afa.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BIKES%20Trails%20Walkers/ScreenShot2013-11-05at103932PM_zps14fbb851.png)
What it would've, could've become had the 2008 economic downturn and crash had not happened. If we all remember, there were several planned skyscrapers (high rise) on the drawing boards (planned/proposed) and because of the economy and the crash, they never were built. Who knows how the building of these projects and developments would have impacted and affected downtown had they been built? Just a thought.
I remember multiple high-rise developments proposed but if all they did was add traffic to the road without providing any pedestrian oriented qualities that improve the public realm we might have in fact dodged a bullet. Dubai has tons of residential skyscrapers - but traffic is a nightmare and you can't walk anywhere. I don't see any pedestrian activity along the southbank condos except for people walking their pets or people exercising. Despite the local population there is no retail, sidewalk cafes, or anything. All the inconveniences of urban living with none of the benefits.
Ock,
The ciclovia concept has spread across the US (and world), from big cities to small towns.
Check out The Open Streets Project on Facebook. Lots of great material on there.
Tony Allegretti was poking around this idea a couple years ago, but it never materialized.
To me the shame of this situation is that while we might someday have our own ciclovia weekends in Jacksonville, I doubt the city will ever embrace the alternative transportation modes such as we enjoyed in Medellin, or Bogota, or Cali, or Cartagena, or Santa Marta, or... The CICLOVIA JACKSONVILLE idea is a low hanging fruit that someone like Don Redman could propose. VISIT JACKSONVILLE and the DOWNTOWN VISION should give a few of us a call and see how it is done.
Imagine closing off Adams and Monroe, from Lee to Liberty Streets; Water and Independence in their entirety; Newnan and Hogan Streets, south of Monroe; Market Street between 1St and Adams; Lee Street in its entirety; Park Street from Margaret to Water Streets. Invite the 'Art Walk' crowds to populate the downtown and tell the whole city to come downtown with their tennis shoes, bikes, walkers, canes, wheelchairs, pogo sticks, skate boards, skates, unicycles and little red wagons. From Riverside to Springfield, and from Fairfield to Durkeeville, one big fluid party from 9 to 5!
As for the bikeways and metro rail projects, you'll have to visit Chicago, Minneapolis or Medellin, if you want to see how the 1St World lives!
Jacksonville could easily equal their world-class neighbors by building the rapid-streetcar (streetcar that doesn't share right-of-way and operates much like Light-Rail) alongside the bike trail from Gateway Mall to 21St Street (station) then south between Springfield and Eastside along the old abandoned F&J Railroad alignment all the way south to Beaver Street, behind the Arena parking garage. Tie this to an urban cross-town link extending from the stadium area to Riverside and we'd have a transit-bikeway combination that really would be among the worlds best.
Let's do this, Nate Ford? Give me a call!
I-10, I've generally empathized with your sentiments at least somewhat and have felt you were treated unfairly most of the time. Gotta say though that you've gone overboard here. Obviously you know something that all urban planners and theorists don't.
Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2013, 11:21:45 AM
Dubai has tons of residential skyscrapers - but traffic is a nightmare and you can't walk anywhere.
To be fair, Dubai does have some pedestrian-friendly walkable corridors. But as you say, it's definitely true that skyscrapers hardly equate to walkability.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 07, 2013, 12:14:55 AM
I-10, I've generally empathized with your sentiments at least somewhat and have felt you were treated unfairly most of the time. Gotta say though that you've gone overboard here. Obviously you know something that all urban planners and theorists don't.
Thanks PM for the first take. Then you said that I went 'overboard', that's a pretty strong word. I try to stay reasonable and REALISTIC with my comments, and many people confuse that as being 'complacent' or 'suburban-minded'. Some things will NOT be changed (Hart Bridge ramp, the Main Street Bridge ramps, State, Union, Ocean, Main traffic patterns) whether you like it or not; Someone will say 'You don't know that', well I have very strong opinions, and there they are. No one in their right minds with the DOT isn't trying to reduce any lanes on them major arteries (making them two-way will reduce lanes).
I guess that the 'urban planners and theorists' rather worry about things that have little impact on the core, instead of building within it. I'm looking at things like the Chase DT, the tech company in the Greenleaf & Crosby, the Laura Trio, the Barnett Building which hopefully will get Florida Blue you know, things that matter; Not something that's controlled by the DOT, and will never change. The Hart Bridge ramp doesn't interfere with traffic at all, it's convenient, and it keeps tailgaters cool and protects people from the rain; the Fuller Warren Bridge also protects people during the Riverside Arts Market; I guess since that bridge only carries auto traffic, there's no need for that either. My thing is if possible, do not tear down any DT infrastructure, and continue working on the core, which doesn't sound extreme at all to me.
I remember when a short time poster said something about extreme people on certain websites. I would like to think that MJ is open-minded, but the more and more times when it seems like you can't have an opinion about something (that's not even extreme) the more I think the he was right. My whole new thing is 'agree to disagree', which is cordial, and not confrontational; Atleast after the first disagreement. Maybe that's a better way of going about things, instead of one person being quintuple-teamed against.
Speaking of FDOT and the Hart Bridge ramps, it's not like FDOT is swimming around in cash these days. Since they don't carry a ton of traffic and literally most of the industries underneath them have closed, been relocated or demolished, when the time comes to pay a couple of hundred million to replace them, don't be so quick to not expect FDOT to evaluate alternatives. One of those alternatives could be to bring the thing down to grade and integrate into the existing street grid. DOTs have been doing that across the country with aging infrastructure that has lived its life and isn't needed anymore.
Adding to the conversation about downtown - here's an observation from an outsider:
I attended art walk last night for the first time. I've been downtown before, but it was always to drive to my destination & then leave. This time I really paid attention to my surroundings.
1) The architecture is beautiful. The Klutho buildings, even the new high-rises, the library, the expensive monolith of the new courthouse - there is a lot to be said there. So worth preserving what's left. But you know that...
2) Hemming Plaza is a disaster. Shame on the city for that! Not even water in the fountain. You won't make the homeless go away until society gets a handle on the drug & job issues. In the meantime, why let the park go to ruin like that?
3) Downtown is DARK. The lighting for the art walk was terrible - I could barely see some of the wares the vendors were selling. The streetscapes were dark too. Too many dark alleys! I have spent alot of time in various cities and I wouldn't walk around Jax by myself after 5. I don't think I'm out of the ordinary either.
4) Signage downtown is non-existent; and unless you're heading to the stadium from the highway, there's no way to figure out how to get any place else. Not good. I was looking for the Ritz Theater the other day -- during daylight hours -- and between the one-way streets and the lack of landmarks in that part of town (one empty lot looks alot like the others) I couldn't find it. Half the time I don't even know what something is until I'm there, and I'm not just an out of towner - I probably know about the location and more about various venues then some of the suburbanites of Jax I've hung out with (I've even been to the old city cemetery to take photographs). But I always feel like "Oh, THAT"S where this is"...
5) A real lack of police presence. Other than some guys on duty to monitor traffic, I saw more of the "downtown ambassadors". Say what you want about the efficiency of mounted police or bike cops or even a uniform just walking a beat, you need that physical presence to deter crime and let people feel safe. Most of the time I see the police driving through downtown like they want to get out of there. I realize Jax is a huge place and there are alot of areas to cover, but you're never going to get downtown up & running without them.
6) I noticed some of the stores downtown that are open & operating look very uninviting. A jewelry store with dust on the shelves, restaurants not opened up to the sidewalk, etc. Is there a merchants association or some incentive to assist downtown merchants??
I live in the burbs but I spend a lot of time and money in Riverside & Downtown. I really liked the energy of the people involved in Art Walk last night. I also went to the Casket Factory party & talked to alot of people - there are so many people interested in making the city work - it's awesome. It's funny but everyone always asks me "What do you think of Jacksonville" like they are afraid of my answer. I tell them I love it, and I do. I'm certainly no expert in city planning and probably have nothing new to add to the conversation but I felt really passionate about my experience last night and wanted to chime in.
Great observations JayePorter. You are right Downtown is very dark and many store fronts just don't get it.
Quote from: JayePorter on November 07, 2013, 10:01:53 AM
5) A real lack of police presence. Other than some guys on duty to monitor traffic, I saw more of the "downtown ambassadors". Say what you want about the efficiency of mounted police or bike cops or even a uniform just walking a beat, you need that physical presence to deter crime and let people feel safe. Most of the time I see the police driving through downtown like they want to get out of there. I realize Jax is a huge place and there are alot of areas to cover, but you're never going to get downtown up & running without them.
You've implied that you feel like downtown is unsafe ("Too many dark alleys", et al) but I have never felt unsafe, certainly not at a major event like Artwalk. Perhaps it is my, ahem, subversive nature but I feel less safe with a ton of cops around... though I admit that that is just opinion and not fact. I was commenting last night (perhaps jinxing myself) while walking 8 blocks with my sister back to our car that I actually had no reservations at all about walking downtown after dark. I always have a pocketknife on me, I am a young female after all, but my finely-tuned gut just doesn't get jeeved out.
Ha in fact, I can vividly recall one night that I was walking from place to place in The Elbow (a year or two before it was formed) and I was, since I was walking alone, holding my closed knife in hand in case I encountered trouble. A man came running up to me and I tightened my grip, almost brandishing out of fear, when the man reached me and handed me a concert flyer. He shouted 'have a good night!" and ran past me.
Perhaps I am just lucky. I'd love to see some statistics about crime downtown and see what the crime rates are downtown during Artwalk, but honestly I feel safe. I can think of a solid fistful of other places in Jacksonville that I would not say that about.
^^I agree that current downtown doesn't feel 'unsafe' to me. Besides the lil' annoyance of an occasional persistent beggar in the Laura corridor, I haven't had any issues, certainly nothing worthy of feeling unsafe. The last time I felt 'unsafe' DT was in the late eighties when I was a kid, and three goons jumped me after I came out of the old Haydon Burns Library; Those a-holes are probably in jail right now, I hope that path they chose was worth it LOL. IMO it's 'cool' on this site to say that things are worst than they actually are in this city, which is why none of the long-timers never say anything when something like that is said. Just my two.
I didn't mean for my post to sound as though I felt threatened downtown during Artwalk. Quite the opposite.
I made my comments thinking of how I would feel if I were working and had to walk back to my car after dark, alone, not in a place where other people are out & about. My perception of safety in situation like that is tainted by my past experiences but what I'm talking about here is just perceptions after all - not facts. If we are talking about what would make downtown better, and would get some schmoe like me down there to spend my time & money, or for a new business to open up, or for whatever other good thing to happen there then I don't think statistics about safety actually matter. Perceptions matter. People on this forum are already on board for downtown Jax to be reimagined but what about the rest of the population? You can't make the city a vibrant place to be without shifting their perceptions as well.
Just trying to be the voice of the peanut gallery I guess. :-)
Your comments were more than reasonable. The City really doesn't have effective signage. The streets are dark but this is more than likely because of the vacant buildings and storefronts rather than ineffective lighting.
Almost every one of your concerns or points is addressed by one thing ... more people downtown. I think with enough people focused on that a lot of your points become moot with an influx of people and businesses.
Right on the money Jayeporter and I think you also hit a good point about the police presence: people who regularly visit DT typically feel safe, those who've never been think they'll be mugged, shot and left for dead between Central Station and the Landing. So adding a few officers on foot, bike, horse, motorcycle, meter maid vehicle whatever would have a greater impact on the "perception" than actual crime rates. Personally, I think the perception is the greater of the two to change.
Quote from: JayePorter on November 08, 2013, 12:43:17 AM
I didn't mean for my post to sound as though I felt threatened downtown during Artwalk. Quite the opposite.
I made my comments thinking of how I would feel if I were working and had to walk back to my car after dark, alone, not in a place where other people are out & about. My perception of safety in situation like that is tainted by my past experiences but what I'm talking about here is just perceptions after all - not facts. If we are talking about what would make downtown better, and would get some schmoe like me down there to spend my time & money, or for a new business to open up, or for whatever other good thing to happen there then I don't think statistics about safety actually matter. Perceptions matter. People on this forum are already on board for downtown Jax to be reimagined but what about the rest of the population? You can't make the city a vibrant place to be without shifting their perceptions as well.
Just trying to be the voice of the peanut gallery I guess. :-)
Fair enough Jaye. My bad, I jumped the gun on that one.
Quote from: JayBird on November 08, 2013, 06:57:14 PM
Right on the money Jayeporter and I think you also hit a good point about the police presence: people who regularly visit DT typically feel safe, those who've never been think they'll be mugged, shot and left for dead between Central Station and the Landing. So adding a few officers on foot, bike, horse, motorcycle, meter maid vehicle whatever would have a greater impact on the "perception" than actual crime rates. Personally, I think the perception is the greater of the two to change.
Yes. No doubt it's mainly a perception issue, and no doubt perception is a big issue.
After art walk I walked about 10 blocks back to my car (at FSCJ) alone around 11pm...I think if I weren't familiar with the area it might have seemed quite unsafe. Obviously if most of that walk had offered the same atmosphere as forsyth and bay it wouldn't feel unsafe at all.
I think downtown, safety-perception-wise, is indeed a mixed bag. My wife and I go down there for occasional events, and I go for monthly meetings in the early evening. I would say the first few blocks nearest the river and the area east and west of Main St. for a couple of blocks seem the 'safest'. The further east or west, or north away from the river, and the rougher it seems. Again, perception rather than statistics, I think.
I agree street lighting would be huge, it did indeed seem dark once you got about a half-block from a storefront. Also, as has been pointed out, retail or restaurant or entertainment locations would also bring life to vacant structures and make your nightly stroll seem safer.
It seems lately that many great projects are underway to improve DT and add business and entertainment venues, etc. It seems very positive. We were at Art Walk the other night also, and it was a vibrant and busy gathering. All the parking lots were full, we were impressed. Hundreds of young people in the 'Elbow' area, many popular nightclubs there. Good location for entertainment.
Quote from: Noone on November 04, 2013, 06:46:43 AM
The point of no return happens today and will show not only the commissioners of FIND but the world that we are not totally LOST.
Here is part of my list that should be part of the permanent record that was submitted at the 10/23/13 Committee workshop on a Finalized list of short term investment projects.
1. RAM dock needs to be opened when RAM is not open. 24/7 Public Access.
2. USS Adams is positive and needs to move forward.
3. 24/7 Public Access to the floating dock that is currently at Shipyards and legislatively guaranteed.
4. Public Access and economic opportunity 24/7 for a floating dock, kayak launch at Catherine St. at Berkman next to Shipyards.
5. Kayak launch 24/7 Public Access next to Duval county school board and JEA property. Also include a bike rack.
6. 24/7 Public Access to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier. 2010-604
7. 24/7 Public Access at Sydney Geffen Park with a bike rack and a Mayor Brown kayak launch logo
8. Kayak launch and logo at Palmer Terrace Park in Dist. 4
9. 2013-384 an amendment for 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity to Hogans Creek. DIA resolution of support because it is an active piece of legislation.
10. 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity for the current floating dock that is under consideration on the Southbank Riverwalk.
Any of these actions will tell the world to VISIT JACKSONVILLE and our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new highly restricted DIA zone.
Number 7. At the 8/13/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting a FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District ) project that has been in the works For awhile (DOWNTOWN) Sydney Geffen Kayak launch it was announced that it is OUT. $100,000 short and this was shared by Brian Burkett in a casual Oh, by the way. There wasn't a FIND update on the table. The conversation started when JWC member John Godfrey asked about the next FIND grant process and being pro active with it. Good for him. This wasn't on the agenda. Now we all know. I welcome any correction to this interpretation.
So let's see Downtown on our new yet to be voted on 4.8 mile Waterfront zone from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge 2014-560 CRA/DIA
2014-190 A completed Southbank Riverwalk, new floating docks?
2014-305 New docking RULES and PENALTIES, an amendment for opportunity for everyone?
2014-306 Procurement Code?
2014-412 Water Taxis
In the meantime ride the RIO St. Johns as you are transported from one illegal side of the River to the other illegal side of the River.
Visit Jacksonville!
Rules committee just 7 hours out. Anyone going?
Gulliford is the Chair
Jones is the Vice Chair
Gaffney
Joost
Lumb
Redman
Schellenberg
2014-412
2014-306
2014-412 the backroom water taxis Procurement loophole was withdrawn by the Executive Branch at the 8:30 Rules agenda meeting. Commenting we're Councilmembers Schellenberg and Gulliford. Could the Legislative Branch bring this back with a 2/3 vote? just asking.
2014-306 new Procurement legislation was deferred
I may attend assuming it's later tonight. Where exactly is it and what will be discussed? Will my attendance actually affect anything or will I just be a warm body listening to people rant on things that have already been decided upon?
Quote from: Noone on August 18, 2014, 01:34:56 AM
Quote from: Noone on November 04, 2013, 06:46:43 AM
The point of no return happens today and will show not only the commissioners of FIND but the world that we are not totally LOST.
Here is part of my list that should be part of the permanent record that was submitted at the 10/23/13 Committee workshop on a Finalized list of short term investment projects.
1. RAM dock needs to be opened when RAM is not open. 24/7 Public Access.
2. USS Adams is positive and needs to move forward.
3. 24/7 Public Access to the floating dock that is currently at Shipyards and legislatively guaranteed.
4. Public Access and economic opportunity 24/7 for a floating dock, kayak launch at Catherine St. at Berkman next to Shipyards.
5. Kayak launch 24/7 Public Access next to Duval county school board and JEA property. Also include a bike rack.
6. 24/7 Public Access to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier. 2010-604
7. 24/7 Public Access at Sydney Geffen Park with a bike rack and a Mayor Brown kayak launch logo
8. Kayak launch and logo at Palmer Terrace Park in Dist. 4
9. 2013-384 an amendment for 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity to Hogans Creek. DIA resolution of support because it is an active piece of legislation.
10. 24/7 Public Access and economic opportunity for the current floating dock that is under consideration on the Southbank Riverwalk.
Any of these actions will tell the world to VISIT JACKSONVILLE and our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new highly restricted DIA zone.
Number 7. At the 8/13/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting a FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District ) project that has been in the works For awhile (DOWNTOWN) Sydney Geffen Kayak launch it was announced that it is OUT. $100,000 short and this was shared by Brian Burkett in a casual Oh, by the way. There wasn't a FIND update on the table. The conversation started when JWC member John Godfrey asked about the next FIND grant process and being pro active with it. Good for him. This wasn't on the agenda. Now we all know. I welcome any correction to this interpretation.
So let's see Downtown on our new yet to be voted on 4.8 mile Waterfront zone from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge 2014-560 CRA/DIA
2014-190 A completed Southbank Riverwalk, new floating docks?
2014-305 New docking RULES and PENALTIES, an amendment for opportunity for everyone?
2014-306 Procurement Code?
2014-412 Water Taxis
In the meantime ride the RIO St. Johns as you are transported from one illegal side of the River to the other illegal side of the River.
Visit Jacksonville!
Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting at 9 am in council chambers. Introduced last night at the 1/13/15 Jacksonville city council meeting was 2015-38 and a Resolution for support of the 2015 Administration FIND projects.
A FIND update was a last minute addition to the agenda. There were only 2 meetings that I'm aware of for this years weak opportunity to participate. Both meetings had to do with the Administrations list. The 10/30/15 meeting and the 1/9/15 meeting. What would Lenny Curry say about this?
On the 1/14/15 Jacksonville Waterways Commission agenda is the NEW guy from Detroit that will be telling us all about the opportunities in our NEW 4.8 miles Rivers edge zone that was announced by a CRA consultant and the boundary is from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge. Was Paul Crawford ever the interim Parks Director? Does anyone remember John Culbreath?
Visit Jacksonville!
all interesting ideas from the boating/kayaking perspective. But the question was about Downtown in general. How about starting small? I'd like Downtown to become a place where, when a hole is created on a road like South Liberty Street, the city actually fixes it instead of closing the street for what is about to be THREE YEARS!!!! How many Downtown Activists are interested in a Three Year Liberty Street Hole Anniversary Party in April?
City Council has been deferring specific legislation to fix the hole since last August. The General Counsel dithered on any action for a year an a half before that.
It's a disgrace.
^I'm not an activist but I'm always up for a party.
^^ A pothole party? Now that's a creative idea! Schedule it and many will attend, I'm sure. :)
Pothole? A great name for a downtown underground nightclub, featuring, of course, a designer selection of imported weed.
Quote from: I-10east on November 07, 2013, 01:15:57 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 07, 2013, 12:14:55 AM
I-10, I've generally empathized with your sentiments at least somewhat and have felt you were treated unfairly most of the time. Gotta say though that you've gone overboard here. Obviously you know something that all urban planners and theorists don't.
Thanks PM for the first take. Then you said that I went 'overboard', that's a pretty strong word. I try to stay reasonable and REALISTIC with my comments, and many people confuse that as being 'complacent' or 'suburban-minded'. Some things will NOT be changed (Hart Bridge ramp, the Main Street Bridge ramps, State, Union, Ocean, Main traffic patterns) whether you like it or not; Someone will say 'You don't know that', well I have very strong opinions, and there they are. No one in their right minds with the DOT isn't trying to reduce any lanes on them major arteries (making them two-way will reduce lanes).
I guess that the 'urban planners and theorists' rather worry about things that have little impact on the core, instead of building within it. I'm looking at things like the Chase DT, the tech company in the Greenleaf & Crosby, the Laura Trio, the Barnett Building which hopefully will get Florida Blue you know, things that matter; Not something that's controlled by the DOT, and will never change. The Hart Bridge ramp doesn't interfere with traffic at all, it's convenient, and it keeps tailgaters cool and protects people from the rain; the Fuller Warren Bridge also protects people during the Riverside Arts Market; I guess since that bridge only carries auto traffic, there's no need for that either. My thing is if possible, do not tear down any DT infrastructure, and continue working on the core, which doesn't sound extreme at all to me.
I remember when a short time poster said something about extreme people on certain websites. I would like to think that MJ is open-minded, but the more and more times when it seems like you can't have an opinion about something (that's not even extreme) the more I think the he was right. My whole new thing is 'agree to disagree', which is cordial, and not confrontational; Atleast after the first disagreement. Maybe that's a better way of going about things, instead of one person being quintuple-teamed against.
+1
Quote from: IrvAdams on January 15, 2015, 06:15:25 PM
^^ A pothole party? Now that's a creative idea! Schedule it and many will attend, I'm sure. :)
I volunteer to help finance press release, placards, tee shirts, social media, etc. for anyone who wants to organize. I wish I had time, but I am a willing underwriter. "Third Anniversary Pothole Party: A Celebration of Government Inaction in Downtown Jacksonville". The anniversary is April 11th.
To me this is similar to Broken Window policing. If you can't fix a hole in the road, how are you going to revitalize downtown?
Quote from: downtownbrown on January 16, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Quote from: IrvAdams on January 15, 2015, 06:15:25 PM
^^ A pothole party? Now that's a creative idea! Schedule it and many will attend, I'm sure. :)
I volunteer to help finance press release, placards, tee shirts, social media, etc. for anyone who wants to organize. I wish I had time, but I am a willing underwriter. "Third Anniversary Pothole Party: A Celebration of Government Inaction in Downtown Jacksonville". The anniversary is April 11th.
To me this is similar to Broken Window policing. If you can't fix a hole in the road, how are you going to revitalize downtown?
I freaking love this idea. Even if it is something small like a meeting at the pothole, put a "Happy Birthday" balloon on it, maybe a hat too. Then we'll all walk to Marks and share a pint and some of our favorite stories about the pothole and road it used to be.
a picture in the media of a cake with a hole in it ought to resonate. Cheerful "Thanks City Counci!!" smiley faces, and "Thanks, Mayor Brown!!!" posters on the chain link fence. "Save the Hole!".
Ha! This could work. Other cities have done stuff like this and its worked. Painted political characters over holes, tagged the mayor and council in photos, etc.
And not just for this hole, but for other neglected repairs around the city. Just film a little video of it and post pictures and video online tagging mayor and council.
I'm in for April 11th.
spread the word, you Hero Members!!! I agree the symbolism could be far reaching. We need Hole In The Road Gang tee shirts. is there a graphic artist in the house?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hgiebiXc4Rw/Uw_GvdaEVHI/AAAAAAAFbao/b5zMnPNY5-I/s1600/sm4jvmv3eya7zj2topvi.jpg)
(http://www.manchesterfoe.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/creative-pothole-300x198.jpg)
(https://localtvwnep.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/pothole-5-art-barbie.jpg?w=2000)
(http://cdn.mtlblog.com/uploads/2014/02/5ddbae615315c2a4fa709dd85293024d.jpg)
^awesome pics
I think it would be great if it was easier to navigate, more public parking, and more family friendly things to do.
A central point for the entire city for business, shopping, dining, entertainment, and also residential living. Don't care what anyone else thinks, but in my opinion a city's downtown appearance, i.e. skyline, infrastructure, etc., is very important. I remember years ago a friend of mine from Germany came to visit when I was still living in Jacksonville. This was in the early 90's. When he saw Jacksonville's skyline, he was pumped up and was ready to shop, dine, etc. After I took him on a tour and we were heading home, he was disappointed. I asked him why, and he said, "tall buildings and nothing going on!" It's good to have skyscrapers and a super skyline, this to me is also important. I feel Jax should, when the opportunity presents itself and the market is open to it, build 3 to 4 more super talls over 700 feet; however, buildings do not make a city. We are on the track in trying to lure people to live downtown; however, I feel we are lacking and behind in ensuring that there is more business, dining, shopping, and entertainment in our downtown. Whether one or the other is of more priority or should be first is up for debate and argument. But this is what I would like to see more within and of downtown Jacksonville.
+1M
A friendly place with shady sidewalks, trees and awnings. Creative infrastructure, street furnishings, directional signs, planters, lighting... Laura Street multiplied across with width and depth of the core. Hanging gardens from the Skyway along Hogan and perhaps Bay. Programs featuring retail, artistic, housing, education and office reuse of older downtown buildings. A place that rewards building owners who REFUSE to demolish that vacant property for a 'LaVilla Moonscape.' Historical markers, lots of markers, historical, cultural and entertaining. Sidewalk art, street performers, vendors, food trucks a veritable carnival of fun ways to kill a lunch hour. A waterfront that salutes our tremendous efforts to two world wars, our Spanish and Native American fore-bearers. A Huguenot park off of I-95, a museum of Southern Rock, Blues, Jazz and Zydeco music. A permanent park with a fitting tribute to our Gullah Geechee Corridor and AMAZING FREE BLACK HERITAGE! The signature (Negro League) museum of The Southern League of Base Ballists. Little Johnny Peyton's neighborhood arches... perhaps his best (maybe only) good idea. A tip of the hat to our old Main Street ferry landing with the great arched sign over the street advertising the ferry and the arcade in the old terminal. 'The Landing,' 'Brooklyn,' and a Sports District named 'Fairfield.' Lots of reuse and new housing. Heights' skyscrapers. A urban public wifi zone. Music, lots of music. A radical new fixed route mass transit system featuring a modal mix. A downtown convention center that doubles as a small cruise port terminal, marine/urban welcome station, surrounded by boutique shopping and dining to keep it buzzing night and day. Recycling the 'Prime Osborn' into 'Jacksonville Union Terminal,' your one stop surface transportation shop. FREE PARKING with timed zones... and a program of paying the meter for the first offense of every out of town car, and those Christmas shoppers. Colorful signs, neon, dancing, flickering, sparkling and dazzling lights. A fabulous Water Screen Holographic Projection under and along the sides of the Acosta Bridge, the worlds largest. A US Naval museum of ships and aircraft, somewhere along the waterfront dotted with fish cleaning stations and 'FISHERMEN WELCOME' signs. A revived Jacksonville Landing. Access to San Marco without waiting for the train. Hooking Big Jim back up to a steam generator just as God intended it. Lane diets, and WAYYYYY lower speeds along such racetracks as Main, State, Union and Bay. Access to the Baptist Medical complex from the Skyway/Prudential Insurance area without the frogger game. An well funded aquarium. A couple of big box stores. Statues of Admiral Jean Ribault, Captain General Pedro Menéndez de Avilés and Timucuan chief Saturiwa, along with Henry Morrison Flagler, Henry Bradley Plant and John Skelton Williams. Jakes painted streets during festivals and more festivals. Annual tall ship events DOWNTOWN.
Hear that buzz? I do. If you don't your not a believer!
what a wonderful vision.
Quote from: heights unknown on January 18, 2015, 01:43:59 PM
A central point for the entire city for business, shopping, dining, entertainment, and also residential living. Don't care what anyone else thinks, but in my opinion a city's downtown appearance, i.e. skyline, infrastructure, etc., is very important. I remember years ago a friend of mine from Germany came to visit when I was still living in Jacksonville. This was in the early 90's.
Imagine how disappointed he'd be now - back in the early 90s there were still more buildings (although empty) downtown. I know positive things have happened in the mean, as well, but a lot of old building stock has disappeared since then, making dt imho even sadder.