Seattle: America's Next Big Gateway
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2739816480_9GxNqDW-M.jpg)
At last week's Consolidation Task Force meeting, task force member Kay Ehas asked Paul Crawford of the Office of Economic Development (OED) if our local government was aware of what it takes to retain young professionals and if we are doing anything about it. That question went unanswered.
With this in mind, Metro Jacksonville shares a photo essay of Seattle by a young professional from Jacksonville, who now lives on the West Coast. Seattle is nationally recognized as a thriving city for millennials. Compare this environment with what you know of Jacksonville and decide for yourself if we know what we're doing to retain young professionals.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-oct-seattle-americas-next-big-gateway
Lol honored (truly) - these pics are over a year old already (along with commentary). I might have to update this thread soon with some new pics! These pics were taken before I even moved out West and gained an understanding of the markets out here...Seattle is still in one of the largest apartment booms (and office booms) in the country right now, so it already looks pretty different from above. I also know folks with Columbia Center ownership (Beacon Capital) and leasing (CAC Group), so I have tentative access to the roof of that building with appropriate notice.
In THIS (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=19752.0) thread I compiled data from a non-profit DT data tracker, and according to 4 different criteria weighted differently, Seattle has the 8th largest downtown in the US behind Midtown Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, Chicago, LA, SF, Boston, and Philadelphia, larger than Houston's, DC's, Dallas's, Atlanta's, etc.
"Downtown Seattle" has 294,369 employees (7th largest), 119,590 residents within 1 mile (10th largest), 150 employees per acre (10th most "dense" CBD by employment), and an extremely high "live-work" quotient of 41.0%, meaning that 41.0% of residents living within 1 mile of downtown also work downtown (behind only Midtown Manhattan, DT Chicago, and DT Portland, and ahead of Center City Philadelphia, DT San Francisco, and even Lower Manhattan), equating to more walkers, bikers, and bus/streetcar riders.
Beautiful city, on my list to visit.
Thank you for the tour. I've never been to Seattle.
Awesome tour, Simms.
St. James Cathedral looks beautiful.
How does the cost of living in Seattle compare to someplace like an Atlanta or Dallas?
I love Seattle...
Quote from: KenFSU on October 23, 2013, 08:08:05 AM
Awesome tour, Simms.
St. James Cathedral looks beautiful.
How does the cost of living in Seattle compare to someplace like an Atlanta or Dallas?
Good question/ Having lived in Atlanta I would like to know this as well
Seattle is my favorite place for summer getaways.
Seattle really seems to have their ducks in a row and flourishing!
I love the line someone said on another topic about seattle...."seattle prefers to invest in its people and infrastructure than an NFL owner"
Quote from: Garden guy on October 23, 2013, 08:44:30 AM
I love the line someone said on another topic about seattle...."seattle prefers to invest in its people and infrastructure than an NFL owner"
I love that you love that line... :) ;) ::) ???
Quote from: Garden guy on October 23, 2013, 08:44:30 AM
I love the line someone said on another topic about seattle...."seattle prefers to invest in its people and infrastructure than an NFL owner"
Unfortunately, that line isn't entirely true though.
Both CenturyLink Field (where the Seahawks play) and Safeco Field (where the Mariners play) were funded, largely publicly ($300 million for the NFL stadium, nearly $500 million for the MLB stadium), after the teams' respective owners threatened to relocate the franchises.
Who's investing into an NFL owner? Can we please enjoy a thread with always turning it into a this vs that battle.
Seattle is one of my favorite cities in the states. Been several times. One of the best things are NFL gamedays there. A lot of people just walk to the stadium from the city, hitting bars on the way. It was great to see people pouring out of the stadium and into the bar/restaurants downtown, instead of being funneled as quickly as possible away from downtown.
Quote from: KenFSU on October 23, 2013, 08:08:05 AM
How does the cost of living in Seattle compare to someplace like an Atlanta or Dallas?
Considerably more expensive - I think median home prices in the metro are above $300K and above $400K in the city. Office rents are more comparable to Houston, Miami, and Philadelphia ($40s FS for class A). Apartment rents are higher than in Atlanta - in Midtown Atlanta you can find a nice 1BR (not in a new/condo building, but decent) for $1000, but in Seattle I think you're going to have difficulty finding any 1BR near downtown or in Capitol Hill for under $1500 and they go higher. I think urban rents in Seattle are about $2.50-$3.50psf whereas in Atlanta they are $1.50-$2.50psf. Atlanta's latest apartment tower still UC has their website (http://skyhousesouth.com/luxury-apartments-atlanta/) up and they post floorplans and pricing and it looks like they are going for about ~$2.25psf average effective rents in the building. I can guarantee you all the new stuff going up in Seattle is topping $3.00psf.
Pay in Seattle is very very high though - almost comparable to SF, where folks (i.e. Millennials who are renting the new stuff) spend 50-60+% of their income on housing. Folks (Millennials) in Seattle are still only spending the "norm" of 30-40% on housing, which is why rents are still skyrocketing because of the room to push for more.
Seattle's downtown is much larger than Atlanta's - it would be akin to combining DT + Midtown Atlanta, adding cohesiveness, shopping + tourists (a higher class of tourist than visits DT Atlanta), and more apartment high rises. Bellevue is very similar to Buckhead.
Quote from: KenFSU on October 23, 2013, 08:56:11 AM
Quote from: Garden guy on October 23, 2013, 08:44:30 AM
I love the line someone said on another topic about seattle...."seattle prefers to invest in its people and infrastructure than an NFL owner"
Unfortunately, that line isn't entirely true though.
Both CenturyLink Field (where the Seahawks play) and Safeco Field (where the Mariners play) were funded, largely publicly ($300 million for the NFL stadium, nearly $500 million for the MLB stadium), after the teams' respective owners threatened to relocate the franchises.
Sounds like they got the wrong city. I believe that quote was made in reference to Portland.
As for the article, great pics Simms. I've been putting off a Portland, Seattle, Vancouver train trip for five years now. Seattle is one of the few major US cities I've have not visited. It may be time for me to just do it. How does it compare with a place like San Diego?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 23, 2013, 11:22:36 AM
As for the article, great pics Simms. I've been putting off a Portland, Seattle, Vancouver train trip for five years now. Seattle is one of the few major US cities I've have not visited. It may be time for me to just do it. How does it compare with a place like San Diego?
Well, lol San Diego is one of the few major US cities I've not visited (been to UCSD a few times though) I'll just say this: In my rather uninformed opinion, those three cities in the PNW epitomize a lot of the guiding principles you discuss on this website. Really would be worth a visit, especially by train!
QuoteAt last week's Consolidation Task Force meeting, task force member Kay Ehas asked Paul Crawford of the Office of Economic Development (OED) if our local government was aware of what it takes to retain young professionals and if we are doing anything about it. That question went unanswered.
Has Paul Crawford gotten an answer for Kay yet?
Here's a crazy idea, why not move the Farmer's Market on Beaver Street closer to downtown, and give them double the space they have now to create more of a public market where we can have fresh market fish as well as produce and a restaurant or two or three. Lavilla is still empty, even after the Courthouse was moved. Why not look to tie Lavilla back into downtown?
As I said, it was crazy!
Quote from: Garden guy on October 23, 2013, 08:44:30 AM
I love the line someone said on another topic about seattle...."seattle prefers to invest in its people and infrastructure than an NFL owner"
Of course you do....Whatever typical negative crap sticks to the ceiling, right? Every commonplace, and common sense thing (that you don't like) of course is only an unique Jacksonville situation. I'm sure that Seattle....errr...Portland is willing to make all of the necessary moves to keep the Trailblazers viable there.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 23, 2013, 01:35:23 PM
QuoteAt last week's Consolidation Task Force meeting, task force member Kay Ehas asked Paul Crawford of the Office of Economic Development (OED) if our local government was aware of what it takes to retain young professionals and if we are doing anything about it. That question went unanswered.
Has Paul Crawford gotten an answer for Kay yet?
Here's a crazy idea, why not move the Farmer's Market on Beaver Street closer to downtown, and give them double the space they have now to create more of a public market where we can have fresh market fish as well as produce and a restaurant or two or three. Lavilla is still empty, even after the Courthouse was moved. Why not look to tie Lavilla back into downtown?
As I said, it was crazy!
They actually want to do that right where they are at on Beaver Street. They've already acquired the land and buildings. Beaver could make a pretty cool wholesale district in the same manner that Detroit's Eastern Market has become.
QuoteThe area has been shamefully neglected for decades, and they seem to have the energy to advocate for its renewal.
Or until they get pushed out of the area in favor of more frozen food storage. In which case downtown looks better and better.
That may be a while since that's not Beaver Street's plans for the market site.
I had to laugh at this article listing the shortcomings of the biggest city in the most progressive region of the United States. The whole time, I was thinking, where exactly is Jacksonville again? Mississippi? Kentucky? No, Missouri, right? Turns out, it's somewhere in Florida!
Let me get some facts straightened out for your readers:
San Francisco is not a rival to Seattle. The last time San Francisco was a rival to Seattle was perhaps sometime around the California Gold Rush. Seattle aims to compete on the global market and works in partnership with our ecologically-minded neighbors in Portland and Vancouver. San Francisco is in a different economic region altogether and is not seen as a competitor to businesses here.
Comparing the statistics of Jacksonville to Seattle, as was done in the introduction of this article, is ridiculous. For example, what is the point of comparing the population of an 83.9 square mile city to that of a 747 square mile "city"? In Seattle, we call a city like Jacksonville "sprawl". As for urban infill obstacles, the author states that Seattle has none. Our topography would argue to differ; our natural and manmade obstacles are what make our city so unique and livable.
To say that there is no downtown nightlife district in Seattle is also disingenuous; nightlife in Seattle occurs not downtown, but in close-in and dense residential neighborhoods such as Belltown, Pioneer Square and Capitol Hill. These neighborhoods are no more than a 15-minute walk from the Central Business District. Most neighborhoods in Seattle can be enjoyed without a car; I doubt that is possible in Jacksonville.
Listing the Fortune 500 companies of the two cities is equally misleading. The author only counts in-city companies, but as I mentioned earlier, Seattle is a much more geographically compact city. By excluding suburban Seattle companies, the author has neglected to mention Costco (24), Microsoft (37), Paccar (159), and Weyerhaeuser (374), among others. If Seattle were a sprawling, amorphous blob like Jacksonville, these companies would easily fall within city borders.
Seattle is a dense, vibrant, compassionate, inclusive, and innovative city. Jacksonville, on the other hand, where the hell is that?
QuoteComparing the statistics of Jacksonville to Seattle, as was done in the introduction of this article, is ridiculous. For example, what is the point of comparing the population of an 83.9 square mile city to that of a 747 square mile "city"? In Seattle, we call a city like Jacksonville "sprawl"
If the metro stats were not included, you would have a valid point. But since they were, I don't see YOUR point. The population of the principal city in the metro area is important and indicative of some things. It has value as a metric.
Since Jax has a large percentage of it's metro area under the control of ONE government, with the tax base of same, it would reason that it should have an easier time implementing an economic development strategy, keep taxes at a reasonable level, and complete capital projects more easiliy. Despite this advantage, it still struggles in pursuing an urban stratgey for development.
Cities of all sizes are looked at in this continuing series, because there is much to be learned from any size city.
Quote from: unobody on October 24, 2013, 03:32:45 AM
Comparing the statistics of Jacksonville to Seattle, as was done in the introduction of this article, is ridiculous. For example, what is the point of comparing the population of an 83.9 square mile city to that of a 747 square mile "city"? In Seattle, we call a city like Jacksonville "sprawl".
Welcome to the site unobody.
I actually added that to the photo thread. It allows our readers to get a feel for cities being shown in the images, in relation to Jacksonville. The purpose isn't to see who has the biggest stick in their pants, so a variety of numbers are shown. On population alone, city, metro, urban area, and urban area density are a few that are shown. It doesn't matter if the city being shown is Seattle, Miami, New York or Lexington, KY. We do it for all in this series.
QuoteAs for urban infill obstacles, the author states that Seattle has none. Our topography would argue to differ; our natural and manmade obstacles are what make our city so unique and livable.
What you've explained isn't an obstacle. It's a positive when it comes to urban infill.
QuoteTo say that there is no downtown nightlife district in Seattle is also disingenuous; nightlife in Seattle occurs not downtown, but in close-in and dense residential neighborhoods such as Belltown, Pioneer Square and Capitol Hill. These neighborhoods are no more than a 15-minute walk from the Central Business District. Most neighborhoods in Seattle can be enjoyed without a car; I doubt that is possible in Jacksonville.
This was not mentioned in the data because I didn't have this information. Btw, N/A stands for Not Applicable.
QuoteListing the Fortune 500 companies of the two cities is equally misleading. The author only counts in-city companies, but as I mentioned earlier, Seattle is a much more geographically compact city. By excluding suburban Seattle companies, the author has neglected to mention Costco (24), Microsoft (37), Paccar (159), and Weyerhaeuser (374), among others. If Seattle were a sprawling, amorphous blob like Jacksonville, these companies would easily fall within city borders.
Actually, all of Jax's F500 companies are located within a three mile radius of DT. They pretty much fall within the limits of the original 30 square mile city. Since this is intended to be a look at different regions on a hyper-local site catering to Jacksonville readers, given the context that we know locally, it makes sense.
Quote from: unobody on October 24, 2013, 03:32:45 AM
I had to laugh at this article listing the shortcomings of the biggest city in the most progressive region of the United States. The whole time, I was thinking, where exactly is Jacksonville again? Mississippi? Kentucky? No, Missouri, right? Turns out, it's somewhere in Florida!
Let me get some facts straightened out for your readers:
San Francisco is not a rival to Seattle. The last time San Francisco was a rival to Seattle was perhaps sometime around the California Gold Rush. Seattle aims to compete on the global market and works in partnership with our ecologically-minded neighbors in Portland and Vancouver. San Francisco is in a different economic region altogether and is not seen as a competitor to businesses here.
Comparing the statistics of Jacksonville to Seattle, as was done in the introduction of this article, is ridiculous. For example, what is the point of comparing the population of an 83.9 square mile city to that of a 747 square mile "city"? In Seattle, we call a city like Jacksonville "sprawl". As for urban infill obstacles, the author states that Seattle has none. Our topography would argue to differ; our natural and manmade obstacles are what make our city so unique and livable.
To say that there is no downtown nightlife district in Seattle is also disingenuous; nightlife in Seattle occurs not downtown, but in close-in and dense residential neighborhoods such as Belltown, Pioneer Square and Capitol Hill. These neighborhoods are no more than a 15-minute walk from the Central Business District. Most neighborhoods in Seattle can be enjoyed without a car; I doubt that is possible in Jacksonville.
Listing the Fortune 500 companies of the two cities is equally misleading. The author only counts in-city companies, but as I mentioned earlier, Seattle is a much more geographically compact city. By excluding suburban Seattle companies, the author has neglected to mention Costco (24), Microsoft (37), Paccar (159), and Weyerhaeuser (374), among others. If Seattle were a sprawling, amorphous blob like Jacksonville, these companies would easily fall within city borders.
Seattle is a dense, vibrant, compassionate, inclusive, and innovative city. Jacksonville, on the other hand, where the hell is that?
Welcome to the site unobody! Wow... you seem to object to comparisons of your city to both San Francisco and Jacksonville? Is there a city you do not object to being compared to? You also seem to miss the entire intent of the article... please read it again... s l o w l y.
QuoteThat may be a while since that's not Beaver Street's plans for the market site.
Because plans never change. ::)
The draw of people downtown, tied to restaurants, allowing the 2000 residents downtown to walk to a farmer's market for dinner, build your light rail, I know its shocking to think about it in Jacksonville. Farmer's Market wants to stay there, so be it, not easy for downtown residents to get there without a car.
Want to change downtown? Change the thinking.
Uh, that Uno-out guy was so annoying, talk about tootin your own horn. I never woke up and said, hmmm what place I wanna go visit, oh yeah!! If any 'new to me' city on the West coast, it would be San Fran, or maybe San Diego. Enjoy that crappy weather and Mexican Cartel overrule up there in 'Junkie Town' (as 'Drugs Inc' on NatGeo called it) buddy.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 24, 2013, 08:55:16 AM
QuoteThat may be a while since that's not Beaver Street's plans for the market site.
Because plans never change. ::)
The draw of people downtown, tied to restaurants, allowing the 2000 residents downtown to walk to a farmer's market for dinner, build your light rail, I know its shocking to think about it in Jacksonville. Farmer's Market wants to stay there, so be it, not easy for downtown residents to get there without a car.
Want to change downtown? Change the thinking.
What I've bolded is what needs to happen. The thinking needs to change. The urban core is bigger than the imaginary bubble around the CBD that many market it as. In addition, the population the market serves is significantly larger than the couple of people living downtown. It and many of the businesses on Beaver Street are also economic anchors for the urban neighborhoods surrounding them. Perhaps, it's time for us to acknowledge that these places exist and promote them for the assets they are? We have a bonefide industrial, wholesale and market district in Beaver Street that complements nearby residential districts. Instead of ignoring it, maybe we should breathe more life into it and acknowledge that it actually exists. I've never been to Seattle but from looking at the pics in this thread, others, and Google Earth over the years, it does appear it has a variety of attractive, vibrant and unique urban settings. We have a few and can have more.
As you know, we've been long time advocates of having efficient, attractive, high frequenc and reliable alternative forms of mobility that directly connect the CBD (North/Southbanks) with adjacent walkable neighborhoods and destinations. This is a much easier and cheaper option than attempting to relocate other long time neighborhood assets to the CBD to boost it up.
Relevant:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/24/5023454/amazon-giant-biodome-design-board-approval
I did use Google Maps, thank you. That's how I found out where Jacksonville was.
Here' some free consulting for the city's revitalization effort: rename "Confederate Park". Things like this have a way of scaring off visitors and investors from other parts of the country, especially the sought-after Millennial demographic. Public perception is half the battle.
^^^Welcome to the forum? :o
There are some critical folks on this forum, myself included, but usually a level of criticism is allowed so long as it comes with a dose of maturity AND a backing (I grew up and spent 18 years in Jax, you "can't even place it on a map"). Also, it helps if you offset your harsh and off base remarks with positive contributions.
Per unwritten forum rules (anywhere), you're not allowed to troll and rant and hoot and holler and cry a river until you've contributed positively to the forum and gained some sort of mutual respect from other posters. Keep that in mind before you go ducking your nose in some other place. This is a private forum, in a sense, where any moderator can easily remove you and block your IP (and at this point I suggest they do).
My question is what brought you from Seattle to the MetroJacksonville board?? I'm on here by way of San Francisco, where I currently live now. I took these pictures of Seattle well over a year ago on my first visit to the city - if you have a problem with anything, pictures or commentary, why not just PM me instead of asking to be splooged on the face by a bunch of people probably looking to disgrace you by now.
unobody,
just to help you sleep better tonight, let me quickly sum up the purpose of these analyses: to examine how other cities are maximizing their advantages and handling their disadvantages so we can learn from both the successes and the struggles. I doubt anyone here, ESPECIALLY THE AUTHOR, has any intention of trashing Seattle to build up Jacksonville...quite literally in fact it often seems like it's the opposite. Anyway, no need to get so defensive and please reread slowly. Maybe even read through the "Learning From" section, which is the genesis of this style of articles on this site.
you're welcome to stay and contribute your thoughts, in fact we often have folks wander in here to help add information and perspective to our discussions of their particular region, but remember this isn't a competition so there's really no need to attack any city, be it San Francisco or Jax.
I used to live in Seattle myself, Queen Anne to be exact.
Like all cities in the US, they all have pluses and minuses.
Pros?
- Great bus system
- Good sense of what they want to be
- Very International in their thinking
- Entrepreneurial
- Great places to eat
- Willingness to embrace transit
- Neighborhoods with character
- Good TOD/Urban zoning
Cons?
- Extremely provincial
- Inferiority complex
- Heavily taxed (transit, highways, sports)
- Litigious
- Traffic is terrible now
- Waterfront losing it character (more like giving it up)
I still remember the near umbrage when I decided to move back east...it was like a collective "Huh? Why would you leave this place?"
Lack of knowledge of the rest of the US. Most people were stunned when I told them it took 35 hours just to drive to Chicago from Seattle. No concept of just how big the country really was beyond Spokane.
Greater King County most definitely has a sprawl problem. That is why they have a chronic traffic problem. From Alderwood in the North to Fife in the south, I-5 is busy. I know people who are moving to Enumclaw or Black Diamond beyond Kent. No different than Jaxson's moving to St John's county.
So while we can all type in stereo in this blog, I would say go tend your own garden, we already know what we are working with here.
Stephen, when did you live in U-District? We used to go over to Azteca for tex-mex over there and a bunch of other spots.
Quote from: simms3 on October 24, 2013, 05:56:25 PM
This is a private forum, in a sense, where any moderator can easily remove you and block your IP (and at this point I suggest they do).
I think that he shouldn't be blocked. Let him continue to make a complete ass of himself, it's kinda enjoyable LOL. Uno definitely fits that typical Seattle persona in being all condescending, high-brow, and D-baggy; Nice job buddy, keep it up....
I was struck by how colorful the high rise architecture is in Seattle, especially in the aerials. Never been there, but don't recall ever seeing a city w/ that particular architectural signature. Is that accurate? If so, is it a response to what this native Floridian assumes to be a terrifying sunlight deficit?
As for public funding for the NFL, as an emerging fan of "real" football (i.e. Association Football), I've been struck by how stadia are financed in Europe. It is generally the responsibility of the "club" (i.e. team). In fact, generally, I would say that association football as practiced in Europe is far more reflective of the "free-market" than America's "football" league. The contrast between the political stereotypes and the athletics of the two regions is fascinating to me.
Quote from: bencrix on October 25, 2013, 09:46:48 AM
As for public funding for the NFL, as an emerging fan of "real" football (i.e. Association Football), I've been struck by how stadia are financed in Europe. It is generally the responsibility of the "club" (i.e. team). In fact, generally, I would say that association football as practiced in Europe is far more reflective of the "free-market" than America's "football" league. The contrast between the political stereotypes and the athletics of the two regions is fascinating to me.
It's far from an apples to apples comparison though. For starters, the free-spending, negligible revenue-sharing, economics of european clubs theoretically means your local economy benefits only from what your fanbase pays for. In theory, the Jags franchise (and therefore the money poured into the local economy by players, execs, and the owner) is subsidized by the larger NFL markets. And European cities often will have multiple clubs. You really don't see the threat of club relocation as often as you do with American teams.
Seattle is a bit ahead of San Diego in terms of cohesiveness, but not really by that much. The urban area of San Diego is as dense and walkable as Seattle, and the historic core of San Diego is a much more vibrant residential area (day and night). Additionally, San Diego's inner city neighborhoods (Hillcrest, Uptown, University Heights, Mission Hills, Little Italy, Golden Heights, Banker's Hills, South Park, and especially, hipster paradise North Park) are all seeing an abundance of dense infill development similar to what you'll find in Seattle. This does not take into account the "other" San Diego, the ever densifying city beaches (particularly Pacific Beach which will soon be connected to the trolley via the blue line extension to UCSD/La Jolla).
San Diego has had the second highest percentage growth rate in downtown residential population over the past 30 years, trailing only, you guessed it, Seattle! These two cities actually have more in common than they have differences.