It appears Tony Sleiman is serious about creating what he calls the next "Town Center". Not sure we need another town center but I do know people love to shop. Thanks for the story Daily Record!
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540668
QuoteManaging Editor
Developer Toney Sleiman envisions his property at northwest Atlantic and Kernan boulevards as a major retail center.
"It'll be the next St. Johns Town Center," said Sleiman, a prolific developer who owns the land at three of the four corners of the intersection.
He compares the potential of his property to the success of the 240-acre St. Johns Town Center retail and housing development at Butler Boulevard and the Interstate 295 East Beltway.
The Atlantic and Kernan property, now called Atlantic North but shown on plans as the Marketplace at the Fountains, has about 40 acres under development now, including plans for a new Belk department store and Earth Fare organic foods grocer. It would be the first Earth Fare in the market.
Sleiman says he owns 100 more acres at Atlantic North, stretching west to CarMax, that will be developed as he secures tenants.
"I'm going after everybody," he said about retailers, restaurants and other tenants.
Sleiman said he would develop the property in stages. "When I get somebody I like, I will put them in there."
Atlantic North has Academy Sports Outdoors and LA Fitness. Belk plans to build at the western end of the center, while the Earth Fare is scheduled to occupy a store next to Academy.
Four more stores are planned that will complete the center, from Belk on the west to LA Fitness on the east.
The southeast corner of Atlantic and Kernan is anchored by BJ's Wholesale Club and the southwest property is anchored by Walmart and Kohl's.
"If you want to be in that market, I own all three corners," he said. "It's a nice position to be in."
Sleiman said he has just two parcels remaining available at the southwest site, while seven are available at the northwest Atlantic North property.
Atlantic North could be renamed, Sleiman said, playing with the "marketplace" name.
He expects fast-food and restaurant chains to be among the tenants interested in the site. "Look at the traffic count on Atlantic Boulevard. There are 100,000 cars a day," he said.
Sleiman said a couple of the new stores in Atlantic North will be new to the market, but declined to identify them.
kmathis@baileypub.com
At one point there was going to be a SuperTarget built on the same corner as Academy Sports, but when the economy went south back in 08-09 they shelved those plans and recently started adding the larger grocery sections to their regular stores. I don't know if they will ever revive the plans to build a SuperTarget there.
I know the St. John's Town Center has been quite a success. I have marveled at it's appeal and been please for those who enjoy the shopping, restaurants etc. What has concerned me however has been the outcropping of additional retail that to my eye at least seems to be nothing more than a collection of smaller shopping centers hobbled to the successful core of unique shops and restaurants. I also marvel at the growing number of residential units. Now I get that different things appeal to differnt folks and for some living on the edges of a conglomeration of commercial retail is a sort of Nirvana, but I wonder will all of this stand the test of time? Is there a point where the novelty wears off, the retail is overworked and people just become board with the latest new thing? I must share with you I remember when the first mall like shopping center came to Miami Beach many decades ago. It was the grand new thing and it featured an outdoor mall with retail, restaurants and movie theaters. A few years later the shine wore off and the developers set about the sizable task of trying to convert an outside mall into an enclosed, air conditioned center. There is some truth to that saying that everything old is new again. :)
Can Sleiman create a decent little shopping area there? Sure, probably. Can he create "the next Town Center" or anything closely resembling it? Not a chance. Not unless he wants to give some of the existing Town Center retailers that will only have 1 store max in North Florida free or heavily reduced rent.
Other than Belk, I don't see anything that different from what we have by the airport or in Oakleaf.
What is it with developers sticking retail centers out in the boonies? Why doesn't Sleiman do something with the landing and move major retail in there, so it will be a major place to go to in the urban core besides drinking heavily and remarking on the closed shops?
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 02, 2013, 02:20:52 PM
What is it with developers sticking retail centers out in the boonies? Why doesn't Sleiman do something with the landing and move major retail in there, so it will be a major place to go to in the urban core besides drinking heavily and remarking on the closed shops?
Hasn't he always said moving major chains to the Landing was problematic due to the parking situation?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 02, 2013, 02:26:48 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 02, 2013, 02:20:52 PM
What is it with developers sticking retail centers out in the boonies? Why doesn't Sleiman do something with the landing and move major retail in there, so it will be a major place to go to in the urban core besides drinking heavily and remarking on the closed shops?
Hasn't he always said moving major chains to the Landing was problematic due to the parking situation?
Yes, but the "parking situation" was that he was holding the city hostage for some reason if I recall. He wanted some large sum of money and/or more land to build a parking garage.
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to build a parking garage on the current parking lot surface area, but I'm no architect or engineer.
And besides, if he has the money to throw at another stripmall, surely he could invest in the Landing instead.
This post (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-the-jacksonville-landing-parking-myths-vs-reality) from 2010 has some good information.
This Sleiman development is the one that was of question during the mobility fee moratorium debates earlier this year and in 2011. Atlantic North is a "power center". Nothing more, nothing less. We have them all over town. Other examples include Oakleaf Town Center, the Target portion of SJTC and the shopping center anchored by Best Buy, near Avenues Mall.
Here's a 2010 Metro Jacksonville article about this shopping center:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/832631852_5W5iG-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-apr-marketplace-at-the-fountains-coming-to-east-arlington
Also, here's a copy of the site plan from Sleiman's website:
http://www.sleiman.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=V2oFhmn0Jl8%3d&tabid=547
You can also see it on this smaller image:
(http://www.weingarten.com/mediabin_import/Property%20Photos/0690%20(Atlantic%20North%20Shopping%20Center,%20Jacksonville,%20FL)/Web/SLEIMAN%20PROPERTIES%202011-05-05--JPG%20(465x465).jpg)
We've made this location a viable commercial node with the taxpayer funded expansions of Atlantic, Kernan, the Atlantic/Kernan overpass and eventually the expansion of Kernan from Atlantic to Monument.
No doubt, the new development at this intersection will be good for Sleiman and the businesses opening there. However, they'll be the death of older retail centers and chain restaurant locations in the vicinity, such as Regency Square. So the net plus on the local economy may be debatable.
The older sections of Atlantic will continue to decline as older commercial corridors such as Emerson, University Blvd and Baymeadows have. The key for their futures will be their ability to reinvent themselves. Emerson has struggled but Baymeadows appears to be morphing into a cultural district.
Oh, please. This man is delusional. He develops uninspired strip malls and power centers...nothing along the lines of Town Center or even River City Marketplace. He just has no vision and it saddens me he is the one in charge of The Landing in the heart of our core.
Quote from: copperfiend on October 02, 2013, 02:13:06 PM
Other than Belk, I don't see anything that different from what we have by the airport or in Oakleaf.
Huh??? Earth Fare? Unknown stores that will be new to the market?
Ennis, what constitutes a "power center"? Inquiring minds want to know. Back in my day we didn't use the term so I am curious. :)
A power center is basically a strip mall consisting of a string of big box retailers lined up side-by-side. Here's wiki's definition:
QuoteA power center is an unenclosed shopping center with 250,000 square feet to 750,000 square feet of gross leasable area that usually contains three or more big box retailers and various smaller retailers (usually located in strip plazas) with a common parking area shared among the retailers. It is likely to have more money spent on features and architecture than a traditional big box shopping center.
Power centers function similarly to a traditional shopping mall, but are primarily built around the movement and access capabilities of private vehicles rather than pedestrian foot traffic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_center_(retail)
Here are a few photos of power centers to give you a better idea:
(http://commercialconstructionblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/pier_1.jpg)
(http://vccusa.com/i/projects/lakeside_marketplace3.jpg)
I see thanks Ennis. Nothing exciting here in my opinion but perhaps this will create some needed job opportunity's for Jacksonville. I hope so anyway.
Along with Markets at Town Center:
(http://www.marketsattowncenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/bannerShops1140x445.jpg)
Hines Global just bought it from Pinehill for $135mm ($425psf), which was a huge deal (3rd largest retail transaction in 3Q2013 in the country). We looked at it but passed based on the market (we're unfamiliar with Jacksonville and it's not nearly one of our core markets no matter how core the deal itself looked).
Very strong signal to Gate Pkwy area and SS retail to have Hines Global come pick it up...very institutional money and a large deal that transacted. I'm sure Sleiman is having nightly wet dreams that he can accomplish the same thing!
By definition, a Power Center has 85-90+% of its GLA taken up by big box anchors (Best Buy, Target, ROSS, Marshalls, Toys R Us, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc).
A "neighborhood center" is a grocery or big box anchored retail center, typically smaller with lots of inline shops.
A "community center" is a mixture of the two...several boxes and lots of inline shops, with one or more of the boxes being a necessary goods retailer such as a Target or grocery store.
SJTC is a hybrid "super regional center" with two "power centers" next door and a "lifestyle" component (the shops/"walkable" portion).
River City Marketplace is a very traditional, average sized "regional center"...it doesn't get the "super" in front of it, well, because it just isn't that kind of draw nor is it that kind of 1-1.5+ million SF size.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 02, 2013, 05:48:31 PM
I see thanks Ennis. Nothing exciting here in my opinion but perhaps this will create some needed job opportunity's for Jacksonville. I hope so anyway.
Outside of short term construction jobs, I don't see many new permanent jobs being created. The market is only so big. I suspect these businesses will only cannibalize existing jobs from other businesses in the area. For example, Belk is planning to build a new 95,000 square foot store here. Belk currently has a 195,000 square foot store at Regency Square, a short three miles away. Do we really believe that section of Jacksonville can support two Belks so close to each other?
I'm going to make a big assumption here and only time will tell if I'm right. I believe Belk will shut down their Regency store when the new one at Sleiman's center opens. However, the new Belk is half the size of the existing one. It's not out of the realm of possibility that it will employ half as many people as well. So, when calculating job growth, we need to keep things like this in mind.
Death knell for Regency. Lake is right, Regency Belk will close.
This is the nature of sprawl, every 20 years the 'new hot area' develops and the old 'new hot area' dies out. Meanwhile the infrastructure is extended further and further out to accommodate this pattern.
^^^Unfortunately Jax has a long way to go before it's really too big for its britches. Look at Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, LA, Phoenix, and DC; heck even Chicago, NYC, SF, Boston, and Philly. All of these cities have sprawl more dense than Riverside stretching for many miles outside of the city center...10-20 lane highways and tollways extending in all directions for 15-30 miles outside the city center. When all is said and done, Sleiman's new center is only ~9 miles from the CBD and there are even still development sites/open land between there and the CBD. Density in that area is probably 2,000-3,000 ppsm at most.
It would be nice if the infill bug that hit Charlotte and Nashville would also hit Jax. Those cities have room to grow out too, but are growing "up" instead despite their small, less dense size.
It's another shopping center. Ho-hum. Big box stores will be the next to go probably...Best Buy, for example, is already having problems...so it's just a matter of time before these new strips run their course too. Then we'll move down the street and build something else. And, as pointed out earlier, taxpayer funds will continue to widen the roads and extend the infrastructure to make this possible. Traffic will become even more intolerable. It's a vicious cycle. I have nothing against shopping centers, but I do hope at some point the light-bulb that turned on in so many cities (as in: hey, let's recapture the original city and bring it back!) will do so in Jacksonville.
Quote from: simms3 on October 02, 2013, 08:58:02 PMIt would be nice if the infill bug that hit Charlotte and Nashville would also hit Jax. Those cities have room to grow out too, but are growing "up" instead despite their small, less dense size.
Those cities have put their money where their mouths are at when it comes to investing in their cores and working to implement a community vision. While we talk a good game, historically we've gotten pretty good at quietly slipping out the back door once the time comes to put some skin in the game.
Quote from: Mike D on October 02, 2013, 09:17:45 PMI have nothing against shopping centers, but I do hope at some point the light-bulb that turned on in so many cities (as in: hey, let's recapture the original city and bring it back!) will do so in Jacksonville.
I'm fine with outward growth as well. I just think we need to do a better job of making sure taxpayers aren't getting the long term short end of the stick when it comes to growth (of any kind) paying for itself. We're in trouble if we continue to subsidize new growth at the expense of previously developed areas.
IMHO, Atlantic North will never, ever be a Town Center. This is a laugher and he must have been joking.
He can't even get all of his space on the SE corner leased by BJ's. The Markets @ TC just sold a 3 parcel lot for several million. I don't think he will ever see that. He had to come to City Council with his hat in hand to beg for a partial impact fee to get Academy in the door.
He was going to call it "The Fountains" but changed his mind. Filled in all of ponds that were going to have the fountains spraying water and renamed it a very original "Atlantic North", oooooh! >:(
The former Charleys and Johnny Carinos on Atlantic finally leased after sitting vacant for 3 years. The former KFC/A&W is still sitting empty. They just opened a new 2 tenant bldg. in front of Kohl's with some very critical retail. Aspen Dental and Mattress Firm. How many more mattress stores does Jacksonville really need!
Oddly, Mr Sleiman passed around flyers to anyone coming into his 3 corner lots trying to block that "taxpayer funded, subsidized" overpass. You know, the one that cut traffic accidents by 65%. He doesn't seem to be complaining now.
His Phase II lot is being bandied with "Potential Car Dealer lot available" signs.
He is overjoyed because the transition of certain desirable retail is beginning the shift east across 295 and down Atlantic.
He would have had all 4 corners to himself if the Rev. RJ Washington at Titus Harvest Dome didn't beat him to the NE corner parcel. That now houses the "Marble Waters Hotel & Suites". The hotel just happens to lease the land from the church and the agent for the hotel? Why its the Reverend himself. If anything, perhaps Rev. RJ is in the wrong line of work.
Not bad for an intersection that has carried a WalMart and BJ's for 10 years.
I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one. Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really? Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2013, 06:32:11 AM
I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one. Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really? Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?
I didn't realize the church owned this hotel. I had seen the building but didn't think much of it. I wonder how it works exactly. If the hotel (run by the church) is leasing the land from the church. I assume the hotel is "for profit", so who paid to have it built and who keeps the profits, assuming there is any. Seems like a nice scheme to me.
Colleges around the country run their own hotels for-profit. Its a legit operation so long as the profits get re-invested back into the non-profit (church or college), but it could potentially lead to some shady dealings. Such as the church using tax-exempt status to secure donations to purchase property, which they then give a deal on to a private business they have relations with.
For instance a church could raise $500k of tax exempt money, buy the land for $500k, then turn around and lease it to the brother of the pastor for 3x below market rate. In that scenario, the brother and/or other donors would be making a business investment that is discounted by however much they save in taxes paid from the initial donation.
Quote from: copperfiend on October 03, 2013, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2013, 06:32:11 AM
I can't imagine the future of that hotel being a good one. Marble Waters Hotel & Suites......really? Is it just for church guests or are they expecting to draw people not affiliated as well?
I didn't realize the church owned this hotel. I had seen the building but didn't think much of it. I wonder how it works exactly. If the hotel (run by the church) is leasing the land from the church. I assume the hotel is "for profit", so who paid to have it built and who keeps the profits, assuming there is any. Seems like a nice scheme to me.
Technically, the church doesn't own the hotel. The entity that owns it (run by the pastor) leases the use of the land from the church.
I assume it was built to facilitate travelers for his revival meetings, but it is open to the public. When I drive by I hardly see a car there and no lights on in any of the rooms. It has a restaurant ("The Brinkk") and was recently advertising 'kids eat free' specials, but again, I don't see very many cars there.
It is listed on Hotels.com, but the reviews aren't very flattering.
As one person put it...."built like a high school shop class and run by a group of 8th graders" Ouch.
LOL, the church's pastor owns the hotel and the land it sits own is leased from the church? Interesting.....
Anyway, I'd rather take my money from the collection plate. A hotel plastered with cheap stucco and called Marble Waters doesn't sound like a viable business model. It's one thing to convince someone they're going to hell if they don't support the church but you can't do that with a cheesy hotel in a city where the hotel market pretty much blows. They would have been better off selling their corner to Sleiman. Strip malls and gas stations are hot stuff these days. Plus, "Marble Waters" shopping center sounds better than "Atlantic North".
QuoteStrip malls and gas stations are hot stuff these days.
Great line- that made me laugh.
THe Marble Waters reviews are a fun read including a story about the first lady firing someone using phrases such as "God don't like ugly". Here is a snippet from another review.
From: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60805-d4041437-Reviews-Marble_Waters_Hotel_Suites-Jacksonville_Florida.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60805-d4041437-Reviews-Marble_Waters_Hotel_Suites-Jacksonville_Florida.html)
QuoteIf you want a facility built by the 9th grade shop class and run by the 8th grade home economics class, this is your place. It purports to be "luxurious," and the builders did use some higher end products, like marble countertops, deep jetted tubs, and glass tiles in the bathrooms, but with scuffed finishes, peeling paint, sloppily applied grout, brand new furniture coming apart (literally), and the like, the superficial image of luxury becomes a joke -- and not a funny one. The place looks good IN PHOTOS, for sure.
Ah yes, let's harken back to a simpler time when...oh never mind. The King is dead, long live the King!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia,_Maryland
http://www.columbiavillagecenters.com/
Question, why is this thread in the Northside sub-forum? I wasn't aware Atlantic and Kernan was part of the Northside now.
Quote from: FSBA on October 09, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
Question, why is this thread in the Northside sub-forum? I wasn't aware Atlantic and Kernan was part of the Northside now.
That would be because I put it here. lol I honestly could not decide where it belonged and of course the thread can be moved to a more appropriate place, I just don't know how to do that. Where do you suggest FSBA?
I had the same question, I live on the Northside and the Atlantic-Kernan area is East Arlington to me. Should this be in the Arlington child board, if a mod can move it?
done!
Thanks Ennis!
QuoteThe older sections of Atlantic will continue to decline as older commercial corridors such as Emerson, University Blvd and Baymeadows have. The key for their futures will be their ability to reinvent themselves. Emerson has struggled but Baymeadows appears to be morphing into a cultural district.
Lake - Check the median incomes in these zip codes. They tell the ENTIRE STORY! 32225, which is where the Atlantic/Kernan interchange sits is the 4th highest in Duval County, with a median income of $65k and over 53,000 residents....and growing!
Meanwhile, Emerson and 32207 has a median income of $41k (not enough people in San Marco to lift this stat), with almost 33,000 residents. Follow the money in town, you will see why and where stuff is happening.
Sleiman would be an idiot to invest new money into the landing, it is dead last in median income in 32202, at only $15k per resident and only about 6000 residents. He would only be upgrading to conventioneers and people who use the hotels, for the most part.
Baymeadows, jury is still out on it. It is in 32217, 32257 and 32256 with 56 in desperate need to be split into a new zip code and soon. Its way to big to have all those households that are growing by leaps and bounds especially in the New Baymeadows area near 295. The new Baymeadows area is giving them a boost and raising the average income to $55k. My bet is if you look at the old Baymeadows between San Jose and Southside, it would mimic that of Emerson in median income.
Follow the money of the residents!
This site isn't in 32258...32258 is in Mandarin.
Also, people in that business look at the demographics of their trade area, not simply a zip code.
The Landing example you used is laughable. If trade area numbers were used, you would likely capture parts of San Marco, Riverside/Avondale, and Springfield which obviously would bring the income numbers way up. At the same time, the trade area of this site at Kernan and Atlantic may extend into parts of Arlington that would skew the income numbers down.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 10, 2013, 04:14:37 AM
Sleiman would be an idiot to invest new money into the landing, it is dead last in median income in 32202, at only $15k per resident and only about 6000 residents.
and you would be an idiot if you thought the Landing's primary market was downtown residents,,,,just as it was when first opened in 1987, a revamped Landing would be a regional draw...not to mention the visitors that continue to go there.
Quotejust as it was when first opened in 1987, a revamped Landing would be a regional draw
lol! I am sure Sleiman will let you use his money to prove this notion. He has been in the business a lot longer than you and me put together. IF the Landing were to be a "regional" draw, you don't think he would have done this years ago when he picked it up?
The fact is that downtown residents, the few of them are not enough to create a new Landing. Follow the money, very simple!
Name calling not withstanding!
QuoteThis site isn't in 32258...32258 is in Mandarin.
You are correct, I updated my info to reflect the 32225 zip code. A truly rich and diverse zip code.
QuoteAlso, people in that business look at the demographics of their trade area, not simply a zip code.
Correct, but they also look at the median income for the people in the zip code or area. With Jacksonville being so spread out, it is easier to look at median incomes and values of property by zip code rather than neighborhoods. After all, the news media considers Riverside as Westside, so it gets lumped in with 103rd street. Yeah, really!
QuoteThe Landing example you used is laughable. If trade area numbers were used, you would likely capture parts of San Marco, Riverside/Avondale, and Springfield which obviously would bring the income numbers way up.
If you need me to do so, I can send you to a link with the data. The data numbers do not lie, 32206, Springfield is not a very good zip code, so I would not use it in your explanations. In fact, out of 33 zip codes with economic data, San Marco (07), Riverside (04), Riverside/Avondale (05) and Springfield (06) all lie in the bottom 2/3 of the data, but they are all among the top 10 in the newly released Total Crime Index. So higher crime, lower median income, yeah, who would not want to open a new mall with this refreshing data?????
QuoteAt the same time, the trade area of this site at Kernan and Atlantic may extend into parts of Arlington that would skew the income numbers down.
Have you seen a map of where this development is located? 32225 and the Kernan/Atlantic interchange are a good 2-3 miles from 32211, the older part of Arlington. 32277 and its Empire Point are even further from it. These zip codes are closed to Regency, which shows how well Regency does with these zip codes support. This new development will pull from 32225 and 32246 which is number 10 in the median income zip codes, out of 33.
If you don't think that developers look at zip code income dynamics, you are just dead wrong. We do it all the time.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 02, 2013, 02:20:52 PM
What is it with developers sticking retail centers out in the boonies? Why doesn't Sleiman do something with the landing and move major retail in there, so it will be a major place to go to in the urban core besides drinking heavily and remarking on the closed shops?
I agree with you. The Landing really needs an overhaul. It has a lot of potential with the right leadership and vision.
I love shopping so more is better for me. I hope his vision for Atlantic and Kernan is a success. Maybe a Macy's
No Macys. Earth Fare and Regency's Belk are on the way.
QuoteTarget Contractors Inc. is the contractor for the project, a 24,000-square-foot store for the North Carolina-based organic and natural foods grocer.
Plans show Earth Fare also will offer a 41-seat café area near the entrance. The café is near the coffee and yogurt bar.
The store is at 11901 Atlantic Blvd. in the center anchored by Academy Sports & Outdoors and LA Fitness. Belk also plans to build a department store there.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541398&searchtext=earth%20fare
and it seems likely that Belk will close their Regency store when this one opens