The Southside: Jacksonville's First Edge City
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4339-p1090268.JPG)
Edge cities develop at or near freeway intersections and airports and they rarely include heavy industry. They are large geographically because they are built at automobile scale. In Jacksonville, the Southside has developed into our first true Edge City.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/757
I go to a church that is in the middle of Deerwood Park. How fitting! 8)
The only descent street in that whole area is Gate Parkway IMO, mainly because of the extremely lush amount of foliage and plants. It somewhat reminds of Cumberland Parkway in Vinings, GA, where The Weather Channel is located. Outside of that, its just everyday suburbia in Florida, with an abundance of Sabal Palms, and way too many Date Palms, what are we, Orlando?
Great article. Despite the winding roads and limited access of that area, there are still ways to increase infill and density and even promote transit. First off, more connecting roads and office park access points are needed to diffuse traffic and offer alternative routes. Second, more mixed use occupancies to "fill in" around the office parks covering up parking lots and addressing the street. Thrid, more sidewalks. The area may nevery be truely urban but it can certainly support a much larger population with a little TLC.
Unless, environmentalist approve of developers filling in wetlands, the Southside will never become truely urban. What we see today is the present day version of what Arlington and the Emerson areas were in the 60s/70s and what Baymeadows was in the 80s. The best our planners can do is to have a vision of future transportation needs (both road and mass transit) and make sure all future developments are laid out in a manner that makes that long range vision feasible. This means we have to get past the idea of constructing individual communities and developments that feed all traffic into limited access points on major collector roads.
Long range, we must develop a grid like road network, choose a mass transit path and make sure higher density activity centers are developed near the proposed station locations.
The biggest issue with this area is that the road network is god-awful. Connecting Gate Parkway to Belfort should help some, but the bottom line is there is one way to get to I-95 from southpoint, and that's Belfort.
I think in the morning, traffic actually flows a bit better because the cars are coming from JTB, and they disperse in the windy roads. But in the afternoon, all of those windy roads (I think they all have Southpoint in the name BTW) must converge on one, and voila! Traffic mess.
Quote from: Steve on April 08, 2008, 10:05:48 AM
the bottom line is there is one way to get to I-95 from southpoint, and that's Belfort.
southpoint blvd dumps into JTB and then within a 1/4 mile into I-95...that's how i used to get out of southpoint everyday.
The road network is indeed awful. It's a great case study in why the arterial road system fails at high densities. Just look at the intersection of Gate Parkway and Town Center Blvd. What a mess!!
However, the area still has some potential. With significant investment (but still probably much lower than the JTB/9A interchange) the city could easily use existing right-of-way to create a more connected road system.
Here's something I doodled really quickly (red is a new road. Pink is a bridge or overpass)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/ussmanatee/editroads-southside-google-earth.jpg)
With a few small exceptions, this is all along existing easments or property boundaries. Bridges over JTB and swamps/ponds are certainly expensive - but not unreasonable as long as they aren't made interchanges. Again, this is just something I did really quickly. But even some of these more obvious routes could eventually be destroyed by a poorly placed building if the city doesn't plan ahead and preserve its easments
Great graphic Joe. Just a few of those routes could easily divert and diffuse traffic, thus reducing the gridlock problem at major intersections, such as Gate & Town Center Parkway.
Thanks, Lakelander. I just hope someone is smart enough to preserve these corridors. Eventually, traffic on Town Center Blvd is going to get so bad that area property owners are going to be desperate for alternatives.
Extending St. Johns Bluff road south - at least far enough to create a couple "back doors" to Town Center - seems like an obvious choice. However, there's the strong possibility that someone will throw up a strip mall (pun intended) or apartment complex that blocks the right of way.
Did I mention that I loathe Edge Cities? This is why I choose to completely opt out. I live in Riverside/Avondale and work downtown and try to spend most of my money in these areas (including Springfield). I visit the "Town Center" maybe 2 or 3 times a year. It really is like a totally different town out there and not one I am familiar with.
I really like the layout of Jacksonville overall. It is a beautiful city but with a little too much sprawl. Is there a plan to make Jacksonville go up instead of out?
Hey can anyone tell me why they didn't three lane 9A? It would have made more sense to do that, to alleviate traffic also.
On another note in an unrelated question to this section of town. Does anyone know what is happening at Southside and Phillips and will this connect to I-95?
Quote from: Joe on April 08, 2008, 11:32:39 AM
Thanks, Lakelander. I just hope someone is smart enough to preserve these corridors. Eventually, traffic on Town Center Blvd is going to get so bad that area property owners are going to be desperate for alternatives.
I'm still learning how this site works. Sorry for posting just a quote of someone else. I like that you can go back and modify it though.
Is it true here in Jax that the developers build the roads. And if that is so, don't the city planners make them build to future specs rather than just to whats needed for traffic today?
I know the developers are building the roads in Julington creek and they seem to be larger than needed for now. That would make sense in Jax too. Do I have my facts wrong on the developer thing? Thanks.
Quote from: CRAIG B on April 08, 2008, 12:52:48 PM
On another note in an unrelated question to this section of town. Does anyone know what is happening at Southside and Phillips and will this connect to I-95?
They are building an entrance to a shopping center. The overpass is to go over the railroad.
The overpass will not connect to I-95, but it will connect to a new Walmart Supercenter. Here's a link to information on the proposed development:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/708/122/
Should we hand out free games of Sim City for those in charge of city planning?
I used to love that game.....I bet some people can learn a great deal about city planning and the need for good public transportation
Quote from: Beloki on April 08, 2008, 01:51:15 PM
Should we had out free games of Sim City for those in charge of city planning?
I used to love that game.....
Thats one of the greatest games EVER made!!
Quote from: stephenc on April 08, 2008, 02:05:00 PM
Quote from: Beloki on April 08, 2008, 01:51:15 PM
Should we had out free games of Sim City for those in charge of city planning?
I used to love that game.....
Thats one of the greatest games EVER made!!
Although I think it's fair to say that most any city planner under the age of 40 has probably played sim city at some point in their lives.
I stumbled across an old version from the early 90s, while going through some old things the other night. I had a strong urge to fire the thing up again for old times sake.
i remember the original version... i played it once after having played SC 2000 or something and it was laughable how simple it was. but my,my - it WAS cool back in the day.
i have sc 3000 now, but it is ridiculous how much memory it hogs...once you get to like 150,000 sims, it just is sooooo slow.
You can play sim city classic online here.
http://simcity.ea.com/play/simcity_classic.php (http://simcity.ea.com/play/simcity_classic.php)
You can actually download scenario's of real cities into SimCity 3000.. however.. there isn't a scenario of Jacksonville yet.... Than we would really be able to build and change Jax
Come 'on guys get with the times.... Sim City 4 has been out for a couple years now! :)
I love the game and have modeled Jacksonville many times, however, my city always seems to turn out looking like Manhattan surrounded by nature versus a sparse urban core surrounded by suburbs....maybe I should be a city planner? :)
talk about a wild tangent!
the new sim city(societies) focuses more on culture than city....its pretty lame(especially in comparison to SC4)...
Isn't Southside a little too big geographically to constitute one Edge City? Compared to Tysons Corner or Bethesda or Rosslyn near DC, it includes a pretty wide expanse.
lewyn...i would agree completely...the ENTIRE southside is not an edge city...i would say the JTB corridor is an edge city - out to like hodges.
Quote from: lewyn on April 08, 2008, 05:44:16 PM
Isn't Southside a little too big geographically to constitute one Edge City? Compared to Tysons Corner or Bethesda or Rosslyn near DC, it includes a pretty wide expanse.
What's known as the entire Southside (ex. as far south as the Avenues to North of Beach)? Yes. However, the JTB corridor between Southpoint and SJTC would qualify as a linear Edge City.
Quote from: stephenc on April 08, 2008, 03:55:25 PM
You can play sim city classic online here.
http://simcity.ea.com/play/simcity_classic.php (http://simcity.ea.com/play/simcity_classic.php)
Why haven't I heard about this until now??? Time to
study for my exam waste the rest of my night building...
we have unknowingly contributed to the delinquency of a (just above) minor. :)
I live and work out here. Actually, you got a picture of the building I work in and the gym I work-out at...alas, no picture of me though. You must have taken these pics on a weekend. We high-tail it for downtown when Friday rolls around :)
You are so right about the area being built for cars. If I'm not riding my bike to work, I'm walking to work. I live about 3 miles away (take the 'long' route down Baymeadows to Gate Parkway then to Deerwood when riding), and the sidewalks seem to go nowhere, and the crosswalk signals don't seem to work at all. If you stand at the corner of Deerwood and Southside and push the crosswalk button, you'll stand there for a good 20 minutes before the light changes to allow you to cross and even then you only have about 5 seconds to make it over 8 lanes of traffic. This also makes it impossible to safely ride my bike the short way to work as I either have to ride the service road along Southside to the point that it ends then I can jump on the sidewalk, get into the road at Deerwood and wait to cross Southside....another 20 minutes. My only other option is to take the service road heading south and ride with traffic to make a left turn onto Southside then ride the shoulder. This works until you get close to Deerwood where everyone creeps over the white line onto the shoulder. I usually ride my cyclocross bike when riding this route as it allows me to jump off the road into the dirt then onto the sidewalk to keep from getting pinched at the turn. I actually have made it to work faster this way then when driving my car.
With new roads being built there have been bike lanes added and sidewalks in certain areas, but like I said earlier, they all seem to go nowhere...not unlike Deerwood Park Blvd. itself. There's no rhyme or reason behind anything, just, ok, we have to put in a new road so be sure to put a bike lane on it and add a sidewalk. Try walking or running anywhere on Deerwood Park Blvd. itself and you'll find on more than one occasion, the sidewalk completely ends, turns into high-pile turf and then picks up again somewhere on the other side of the road (this happens especially on the Centurian loop). Think this was all a product of poor planning in the past? Sorry. Take a look at the new Nemours building on the corner. I noticed a few weeks ago they added a sidewalk and I was ecstatic. No more having to run in the road. Finally, they made a connection in the sidewalk. Wrong. The sidewalk is set back about 4 feet from where the existing sidewalk runs and doesn't even tie into it. It's like the Nemours exclusive sidewalk or something. Very strange.
Let me guess - is the sidewalk curvy for the sake of being curvy? I guess that's something that looked good on a drawing, but it proves that it is there for leisure walkers, and not designed to be functional.
From experience in the field, in most cases, the "curvy" aspect is done because it looks good on paper, not because of functional purposes.
Sim City was one of the best games. Though I never got into it as much after SC2000. I do have 4 around somewhere... hmmm...Might have to install that one again.
I have yet to really get good st SC4, its the hardes one yet!