Oh my, how the port talk has changed over the last year. We've gone from a sell of being a global port and one of the largest on the east coast to ultimate failure if we can get approval this year to dredge to 47 feet.
QuoteTraPac terminal could face "ultimate failure" without congressional action on deepening channel
Dennis Kelly, the general manager of the TraPac cargo terminal that opened in 2009 with towering cranes near the Dames Point bridge, writes letters the way he talks — he cuts to the chase and lays it on the line.
In a letter sent Monday to U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, Kelly said TraPac's future success in Jacksonville boils down to Congress ensuring a big bill on national water projects includes authorization for deepening the St. Johns River.
If Congress doesn't give that authorization, "TraPac's path will be set on the road to diminishing returns and ultimate failure at the Dames Point location," Kelly wrote bluntly.
The message is the strongest signal yet that TraPac is concerned about its long-term future in Jacksonville.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-18/story/trapac-terminal-could-face-ultimate-failure-without-congressional-action#ixzz2fKuMZice
Sure wish our port's future wasn't in the hands of the Feds....
For a number of reasons, I'm of the opinion that we are the major problem, moreso than the Feds.
^ That's what I was alluding to. Something this important should be handled "in house", IMO. The Feds should not have the final say, Jacksonville should. There HAS to be other funding mechanisims.
Without a doubt, we would have already seriously screwed up the river's ecosystem if it were in the hands of local control.
Heh, you're probably right.
So, are you saying you're against the deepening?
No. I just don't believe in that dredging to 47'-50' will result in the job creation numbers being tossed around or that it's our only option to grow port activity. I hate to see us attempt to put all of our cookies into this post panamax basket because it's a race we have no chance of winning, given how far we are behind most of our competitors.
I've been asking about a "Plan B" for a few years now, after questioning the numbers behind a presentation JAXPORT gave when I was a part of the Mayor's Transportation Transition Team. What was pitched seemed highly unrealistic then and after doing my own research on the industry outside of Jax, it sounded even more silly.
But the post panamax ships will likely be dwarfed in the future by the next "big" thing. Why should we not try to support them now to better secure us for the future? Sure, we may not be THE port on the east coast but should still have the flexibility to dock a few post panamax ships in the midst of focusing on the smaller more flexible boats.
I believe there's a balance that must be found between dredging, the health of the river and the impact of dredging on other industries and quality of life issues in the area. To date, it appears much of this discussion has been pushed aside.
There's also the economic side of shipping and how Jax plays into that role.
Perhaps, we should be looking at the port in Fernandina instead of figuring out how to get ships 20 miles upstream? Maybe, we should team up with Georgia and see if it makes sense to develop the old Durango paper mill site in St. Marys as a container port?
Maybe we should be looking a taking advantage of things Savannah has done in recent years, resulting in them currently being several times larger than us, despite not already being at 47'-50' deep? Perhaps we need to be investing in multiple rail connections and reviewing our incentive packages for companies considering taking advantage of the port.
Maybe, it's not a bad idea to try to bring more private terminals like Keystone and Crowley, go after a few ship repair/rebuilding companies, or major manufacturers who need water access? I'll admit that I don't have all the answers but it appears there's a lot more out there that we can take advantage of, even if we never get to 47'-50'.
That's where my mindset is right now. For me, it's not a "dredge now" or "shrivel up and die" situation.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 07:19:02 AM
Oh my, how the port talk has changed over the last year. We've gone from a sell of being a global port and one of the largest on the east coast to ultimate failure if we can get approval this year to dredge to 47 feet.
QuoteTraPac terminal could face "ultimate failure" without congressional action on deepening channel
Dennis Kelly, the general manager of the TraPac cargo terminal that opened in 2009 with towering cranes near the Dames Point bridge, writes letters the way he talks — he cuts to the chase and lays it on the line.
In a letter sent Monday to U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, Kelly said TraPac's future success in Jacksonville boils down to Congress ensuring a big bill on national water projects includes authorization for deepening the St. Johns River.
If Congress doesn't give that authorization, "TraPac's path will be set on the road to diminishing returns and ultimate failure at the Dames Point location," Kelly wrote bluntly.
The message is the strongest signal yet that TraPac is concerned about its long-term future in Jacksonville.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-18/story/trapac-terminal-could-face-ultimate-failure-without-congressional-action#ixzz2fKuMZice
We export more vehicles then any port in America. "The Jacksonville Port Authority (JAXPORT) is a full-service, international trade seaport in Jacksonville, Florida, USA. JAXPORT and its maritime partners handled more than 520,000 vehicles in fiscal year 2011, making JAXPORT the number one vehicle export port in the United States. http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/buyers-guide/jaxport-2013-3" Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
Corrine may not be able to deliver authorization allowing for the deeping the river before our studies are completed....
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-19/story/first-attempt-fails-getting-st-johns-river-dredging-critical-water-bill#ixzz2fN49xWyw
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 04:08:53 PM
Corrine may not be able to deliver authorization allowing for the deeping the river before our studies are completed....
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-19/story/first-attempt-fails-getting-st-johns-river-dredging-critical-water-bill#ixzz2fN49xWyw
Good we need to wait until "The Corps expects to finish a study of deepening the St. Johns River next April."
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-19/story/first-attempt-fails-getting-st-johns-river-dredging-critical-water-bill#ixzz2fN6E45Gq
Unfortunately, this is kind of predictable but it's not looking good for Plan A.
QuoteAfter 17 D.C. meetings, Jaxport CEO says deep water may not come soon
It may take a longer time for Jacksonville to get deep water than everyone thinks, said Brian Taylor, CEO of Jacksonville's port authority.
That was Taylor's take away after a week of lobbying Congress for a water bill that authorizes ports projects and pushing for an amendment that includes the Jacksonville deepening project on the to-do list.
"This may not happen as quickly as everyone thinks," Taylor said during a port authority monthly board meeting.
full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/23/deep-water-for-jacksonville-may-not.html
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 19, 2013, 10:55:07 AM
Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
Yes, the world is afloat with canoes, kayaks, and trawlers. This is not a question of if our port will survive, JAXPORT isn't going anywhere soon, but the ships that currently serve it will start to vanish as uneconomical. All of the auto statistics in the world won't save us if Savannah can land more cars in a single bottom then we can land in two, at that point, were out of the game.
Quote from: Jason on September 19, 2013, 09:48:33 AM
But the post panamax ships will likely be dwarfed in the future by the next "big" thing. Why should we not try to support them now to better secure us for the future? Sure, we may not be THE port on the east coast but should still have the flexibility to dock a few post panamax ships in the midst of focusing on the smaller more flexible boats.
The 'next big thing' is already on the coming off the ways. Maersk Line, has taken lead in ordering these ships, designated the 'Triple-E' class of vessels. The 'Triple-E' stands for Economy of scale, Energy efficiency and Environmental improvements. These vessels would not be able to navigate the Panama Canal but could possibly transit the new ALL-SEA-LEVEL canal across NW Colombia, being developed by Colombia, China and a few old railroad guys.
These Triple E's are simply enormous and Miami is already moving into position with its deep water:
Length overall: 1,315 feet
Beam: 194 feet
Draught: 48 feet
Cargo capacity: 18,000 teus
Service speed: 19 knots / 21.86 mph
For comparison the largest aircraft carriers are the Nimitz class at 1,092 feet.
This whole thing isn't about how deep the St. Johns, or the Savannah, or Biscayne Bay, is. All of this is about 'slots' for container capacity -vs- economic reality for the shipping lines. The cost per TEU slot will have to be decided on a shipping line by shipping line basis, but those who tarry stand to lose it all.
This takes me back to the Post-Panamax ships, these are already becoming the older generation - niche market contenders. The Triple-E Class ship is the new targeted delivery size. Smaller (current) ships will survive a few years will be sold to Gillette and then vanish from the waves. Thus Post-Panamax is not going to be the upper bar but the lower bar.
The Malacca Max, the largest vessels that can ply the Straits of Malacca between India and SE Asia. These operators will hold a huge advantage of some 30% in cost savings over the 'smaller vessel,' owners. These behemoths will carry a staggering 30,000 TEU's each... and they are already on the books too. At the moment only Shanghai, Singapore and Rotterdam could handle them.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2013-09-23at94458PM_zps45b727d1.png)
A TEU is equivalent of a 20' foot container, thus a 40' container = 2 TEU's
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 09:41:32 AM
I hate to see us attempt to put all of our cookies into this post panamax basket because it's a race we have no chance of winning, given how far we are behind most of our competitors.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 10:11:57 AM
Perhaps, we should be looking at the port in Fernandina instead of figuring out how to get ships 20 miles upstream? Maybe, we should team up with Georgia and see if it makes sense to develop the old Durango paper mill site in St. Marys as a container port?
Perhaps we need to be investing in multiple rail connections and reviewing our incentive packages for companies considering taking advantage of the port.
Maybe, it's not a bad idea to try to bring more private terminals like Keystone and Crowley, go after a few ship repair/rebuilding companies, or major manufacturers who need water access?
That's where my mindset is right now. For me, it's not a "dredge now" or "shrivel up and die" situation.
Lake, while I certainly agree with your alternative ideas,
this isn't really a race as most both at JAXPORT and our competition seem to think, because there is ample time to adjust.. The day the ribbon is cut on the canal won't spell the instant end of shipping as we know it. It will however spell the beginning of that end, this will be a season change where more and more 'Jacksonville's, Tampa's and Brunswick's' are going to have to make their own changes to accommodate larger and larger vessels, or throw in their cards. This thing is going to creep across a decade or two before the final winners and losers play out their hands.
I don't think you realize how far we are away and that's assuming it's even proven that the river's ecosystem won't be destroyed in the process. If this were truly a race, we haven't even arrived at the track yet. With that said, it's never a good idea to put all your economic eggs in one basket. There's other opportunities for us out there. My guess is that we'll be forced to explore them sooner rather than later.
Oh no, I fully realize it, we're still 'talking streetcar' 33 years after DDA adopted it as a worthy project. Now we're doing the same darn thing with our port. I just want to make the point that in 33 years M/L the ships currently calling will be gone. And 33 years is about the window I'd give this. If 33 years from now our city council puts some brain dead moratorium on Port funding... our Titanic sinks. That said, 33 years is hardly a race, we have 1/3 of a century to get this done in some form or another. This is why I like the ideas we discussed about Fernandina or the Fanning Island area.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/a7d39887-9d0c-47e3-8d48-b0c439b25fb5_zps517cd47f.jpg)
The entrance channel project depth is 46 feet and it is 500 feet wide. Up as far as the intercoastal those depths stay between 46 and 47.8 feet. The distance from this channel to the current port is about 2.5 nautical miles, and while the waterway is maintained at a depth of just 12 feet, the Rayonier Reach is 46 feet deep, meaning you've got deep water from the channel to Rayonier.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/13356da3-f758-4bfb-94a0-fbde9ae38616_zps4dba88b1.jpg)
From the mouth of the sea into St. Johns bar cut east range (approx. the entrance to NS Mayport) the channel is 48.5' deep and 800' wide. The St. Johns bar cut range to the Pilot Town cut is only 38.6' and 750' wide, finally the Pilot Town cut range is 43.2' feet and 850-900' wide all the way to Fanning Island where the ferry landing/Atlantic Shipyards, roughly 4-5 nautical miles from deep water. If Fanning Island could be purchased from the ferry landing to Atlantic Shipyards there would be ample room for both a turning basin and a massive container terminal.
Add a railroad branchline from Cecil/Westlake-Dinsmore-JIA/Free Trade Zone-Blount Island-Fanning Island would open this whole area to industrial growth, city bypass, intermodal interchange and true deep water at a fraction of the cost of a 15 mile channel. A simple JAXPORT RAILWAY from the current Blount Island branchline to Fanning Island would fall somewhere between 5-7 miles. WAY CHEAPER and less damaging then the super ditch.
Either of these ideas would make us able to handle ships up to the Triple E Class and they along with a few Post Panamax Class are likely going to be the secondary ships for a long, long time.
My understanding is pretty close to Ock's, the larger ships are the way of the future. It may be a "race" right now for that first wave, but eventually they'll become the status quo and other opportunities will be displaced. This is both good and bad from our perspective. On the one hand, it means we'll still have a chance at trade when and if we ever get our act together. On the other, it means we can't just fall back on "plan B" because eventually, "plan A" is going to be all there is, so we *really* need to get our act together.
So much can happen in +30 years, which is why it's more imperative to not be tunnel visioned locally. A good plan B evaluates economic opportunity outside of just deepening the St. Johns River. For example, as Ock has mentioned, perhaps it means evaluating a port on a naturally deeper river, such the small one in Fernandina. It's a subject no one wants to discuss but do we expect Mayport Naval Station to be around in 2040-50? If it goes, what happens to its basin? Is it worth thinking out of the box and teaming up with the Georgia Port Authority and doing something in St. Marys? Maybe it's worth giving Gulftainer a call back? At this point, who knows if these are potential logical economic answers?
"A simple JAXPORT RAILWAY from the current Blount Island branchline to Fanning Island would fall somewhere between 5-7 miles. WAY CHEAPER and less damaging then the super ditch."
+1
Exactly. The Malacca Max will never fully take charge as hundreds if not thousands of ports will never be able to handle them. Yet the scale of economics doesn't bode well for the current size ships. My crystal ball says this will play into the hands of the railroads, as smaller ports become non-players, there will be more and more consolidation to the mega-ports. The trouble the Malacca Max will have is not just channel depth (about 60') but they are too large to even enter, make the turns or navigate a turning basin in many ports, some of which represent entire countries. If we are going to play that role of a secondary size ship port, we have to figure this out and act within 10-15 years and during that entire time our traffic may start to seriously dip. Crazy as this may seem, even New York City is out of the Malacca Max game, Los Angeles is singing a happy tune.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 24, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
If Fanning Island could be purchased from the ferry landing to Atlantic Shipyards there would be ample room for both a turning basin and a massive container terminal.
Add a railroad branchline from Cecil/Westlake-Dinsmore-JIA/Free Trade Zone-Blount Island-Fanning Island would open this whole area to industrial growth, city bypass, intermodal interchange and true deep water at a fraction of the cost of a 15 mile channel. A simple JAXPORT RAILWAY from the current Blount Island branchline to Fanning Island would fall somewhere between 5-7 miles. WAY CHEAPER and less damaging then the super ditch.
Hmm, I wonder what the true cost would be? The whole riverfront on Fanning is built out between the ferry and the shipyards. Plus, this would add an industrial rail line in the Timucuan Preserve.
^What's your point? I believe this is a time sensitive situation and Ock doesn't.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 23, 2013, 11:19:45 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 19, 2013, 10:55:07 AM
Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
Yes, the world is afloat with canoes, kayaks, and trawlers. This is not a question of if our port will survive, JAXPORT isn't going anywhere soon, but the ships that currently serve it will start to vanish as uneconomical. All of the auto statistics in the world won't save us if Savannah can land more cars in a single bottom then we can land in two, at that point, were out of the game.
Quote from: Jason on September 19, 2013, 09:48:33 AM
But the post panamax ships will likely be dwarfed in the future by the next "big" thing. Why should we not try to support them now to better secure us for the future? Sure, we may not be THE port on the east coast but should still have the flexibility to dock a few post panamax ships in the midst of focusing on the smaller more flexible boats.
The 'next big thing' is already on the coming off the ways. Maersk Line, has taken lead in ordering these ships, designated the 'Triple-E' class of vessels. The 'Triple-E' stands for Economy of scale, Energy efficiency and Environmental improvements. These vessels would not be able to navigate the Panama Canal but could possibly transit the new ALL-SEA-LEVEL canal across NW Colombia, being developed by Colombia, China and a few old railroad guys.
These Triple E's are simply enormous and Miami is already moving into position with its deep water:
Length overall: 1,315 feet
Beam: 194 feet
Draught: 48 feet
Cargo capacity: 18,000 teus
Service speed: 19 knots / 21.86 mph
For comparison the largest aircraft carriers are the Nimitz class at 1,092 feet.
This whole thing isn't about how deep the St. Johns, or the Savannah, or Biscayne Bay, is. All of this is about 'slots' for container capacity -vs- economic reality for the shipping lines. The cost per TEU slot will have to be decided on a shipping line by shipping line basis, but those who tarry stand to lose it all.
This takes me back to the Post-Panamax ships, these are already becoming the older generation - niche market contenders. The Triple-E Class ship is the new targeted delivery size. Smaller (current) ships will survive a few years will be sold to Gillette and then vanish from the waves. Thus Post-Panamax is not going to be the upper bar but the lower bar.
The Malacca Max, the largest vessels that can ply the Straits of Malacca between India and SE Asia. These operators will hold a huge advantage of some 30% in cost savings over the 'smaller vessel,' owners. These behemoths will carry a staggering 30,000 TEU's each... and they are already on the books too. At the moment only Shanghai, Singapore and Rotterdam could handle them.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2013-09-23at94458PM_zps45b727d1.png)
A TEU is equivalent of a 20' foot container, thus a 40' container = 2 TEU's
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 09:41:32 AM
I hate to see us attempt to put all of our cookies into this post panamax basket because it's a race we have no chance of winning, given how far we are behind most of our competitors.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 10:11:57 AM
Perhaps, we should be looking at the port in Fernandina instead of figuring out how to get ships 20 miles upstream? Maybe, we should team up with Georgia and see if it makes sense to develop the old Durango paper mill site in St. Marys as a container port?
Perhaps we need to be investing in multiple rail connections and reviewing our incentive packages for companies considering taking advantage of the port.
Maybe, it's not a bad idea to try to bring more private terminals like Keystone and Crowley, go after a few ship repair/rebuilding companies, or major manufacturers who need water access?
That's where my mindset is right now. For me, it's not a "dredge now" or "shrivel up and die" situation.
Lake, while I certainly agree with your alternative ideas, this isn't really a race as most both at JAXPORT and our competition seem to think, because there is ample time to adjust.. The day the ribbon is cut on the canal won't spell the instant end of shipping as we know it. It will however spell the beginning of that end, this will be a season change where more and more 'Jacksonville's, Tampa's and Brunswick's' are going to have to make their own changes to accommodate larger and larger vessels, or throw in their cards. This thing is going to creep across a decade or two before the final winners and losers play out their hands.
(Yes, the world is afloat with canoes, kayaks, and trawlers. This is not a question of if our port will survive, JAXPORT isn't going anywhere soon, but the ships that currently serve it will start to vanish as uneconomical. All of the auto statistics in the world won't save us if Savannah can land more cars in a single bottom then we can land in two, at that point, were out of the game.) We export more vehicles then any port in America. "The Jacksonville Port Authority (JAXPORT) is a full-service, international trade seaport in Jacksonville, Florida, USA. JAXPORT and its maritime partners handled more than 520,000 vehicles in fiscal year 2011, making JAXPORT the number one vehicle export port in the United States. http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/buyers-guide/jaxport-2013-3" Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
Quote from: thelakelander on September 24, 2013, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 24, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
If Fanning Island could be purchased from the ferry landing to Atlantic Shipyards there would be ample room for both a turning basin and a massive container terminal.
Add a railroad branchline from Cecil/Westlake-Dinsmore-JIA/Free Trade Zone-Blount Island-Fanning Island would open this whole area to industrial growth, city bypass, intermodal interchange and true deep water at a fraction of the cost of a 15 mile channel. A simple JAXPORT RAILWAY from the current Blount Island branchline to Fanning Island would fall somewhere between 5-7 miles. WAY CHEAPER and less damaging then the super ditch.
Hmm, I wonder what the true cost would be? The whole riverfront on Fanning is built out between the ferry and the shipyards. Plus, this would add an industrial rail line in the Timucuan Preserve.
(Plus, this would add an industrial rail line in the Timucuan Preserve.) This will NEVER happen!
Fanning Island may or may not be practical, but it ought to be studied. I don't think the railroad would present much of a problem, as much as a 3Rd of it could be south of Hecksher Drive if needed. Otherwise the rail link could stay in the median of what would have to become a 4 lane highway.
Pine Island is another possibility, one that cuts the ditch by about 50%, avoids the Dames Point disaster and the low hanging branches of the power lines. It would not however avoid the turn or the water way crossing with their sundry shallows and currents.
One more thing, IF we get up to Post Panamax, we should be able to handle the Triple-E Class. The extra volume will be captured in some additional length and a change in hull shape from a 'V' to a 'U'. This will keep their draft right at the same level as Post Panamax.
Savannah is probably more screwed then we are as they might not be able to handle the extra length of the Triple-E's due to an extremely narrow channel. With their harbor largely west of the bridge, they might have messed up as bad as us. If they ever get their act together on the massive multi-billion dollar joint Georgia-South Carolina terminal in Jasper county, down river from Savannah they will control the largest contiguous port terminal in the USA. The project thus far has degenerated into a pissing contest between the SC County, Savannah, Georgia and South Carolina, with each attacking and filing lawsuits against each other.
We're not the only ones screw up... but watch out for Miami which will be 50'. The only drawback to Miami's growth is terminal space and a fairly short channel which is cut through some very shallow waters.
Hey, at least I'm half way safe. Tumaco, Puerto Bolivar and Berth 6 at Santa Marta, Colombia are all 60' plus. Santa Marta and Puerto Bolivar both have highway and rail service on dock. Puerto Turbo, west of Cartagena will likely be next with the China/Colombia rail/canal project. ;D ;)
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 24, 2013, 03:15:03 PM
JAXPORT and its maritime partners handled more than 520,000 vehicles in fiscal year 2011, making JAXPORT the number one vehicle export port in the United States. http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/buyers-guide/jaxport-2013-3" Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
What your missing my good friend is that without the ships, no amount of good port or high numbers in the past is going to help us. Feeder ships won't be hauling cargo to a place like the current JAXPORT when it will be 30-50% cheaper to land or ship that cargo (automobiles) in Miami or Los Angeles. We need a plan and decisive action. The newest ships are 4.4x larger and that much cheaper to operate then the ships of 1960-70's vintage.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 24, 2013, 04:58:35 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 24, 2013, 03:15:03 PM
JAXPORT and its maritime partners handled more than 520,000 vehicles in fiscal year 2011, making JAXPORT the number one vehicle export port in the United States. http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/buyers-guide/jaxport-2013-3" Jaxport will survive without the Post - Panamax ship!
What your missing my good friend is that without the ships, no amount of good port or high numbers in the past is going to help us. Feeder ships won't be hauling cargo to a place like the current JAXPORT when it will be 30-50% cheaper to land or ship that cargo (automobiles) in Miami or Los Angeles. We need a plan and decisive action. The newest ships are 4.4x larger and that much cheaper to operate then the ships of 1960-70's vintage.
Well I guess we have to wait and see what happens? ;)
Isn't the dredging project only to Dames Point? If so, are we saying Talleyrand and all of the private terminals and industries lining the river, between DT and Dames Point are screwed, regardless of dredging or not? I wonder if a recent addition like Keystone believes this? Or are we only talking about the container aspect?
Here's a quick list of the various river segments known as cuts, reaches, turns and ranges. I thought such a reference might be useful so everyone interested can follow the marine-speak here and in the news releases.
Beyond the Pilot Town Cut Range running west:
From the ferry to Sherman Point - The Mayport Cut Range
From Sherman Point to just east of the inter-coastal - The Mile Point Lower Range and Turn (big trouble spot)
From the Inter-coastal to about Mid Pine Island - Training Wall Reach
From Mid Pine Island to a point even with the end of Ramoth Drive - Short Cut Turn
From the end of Ramoth Drive to about Shell Bay Road - White Shells Cut Range
From about Shell Bay Road to the Black River - St. Johns Bluff Reach
From the Black River to the Dames Point Bridge - Dames Point-Fulton Cut-Off Range
From the Dames Point Bridge to TraPac - Dames Point Turn
From the TraPac to about the end of August Drive - Quarantine Island Upper Range
From about the end of August Drive to Dunns Creek - Brills Cut Range
From Dunns Creek to the Broward River - Broward Point Turn
From the Broward River to the north bank of the Trout River - Drummond Creek Range
From the Trout River to NU Star Terminal - Trout River Cut Range
From Nu Star Terminal to Long Branch Creek - Chaseville Turn
Long Branch Creek to TransMontaigne - Long Branch Range
TransMontaigne to Commodore Point - Terminal Channel
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/ScreenShot2013-09-24at83840PM_zpsbb71c155.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/ScreenShot2013-09-24at84311PM_zps2cb401d4.png)
I think Jax has opportunity to grow. When looking at the growth in trade globally, as well as the size of the ports across the world relative even to NA ports, it becomes evident that there is business/growth to tap into for all ports with some foothold.
Looking at NAFTA ports and their TEU growth from 2011 to 2012, Jax performed better than the traditionally large container ports of LA/Long Beach, NY/NJ, Oakland, Savannah, and Seattle, but was bested by Hampton Roads/Newport News, Charleston, SoFla ports, and Houston. The real growth is in Mexico and Canada, logically.
Baton Rouge N/A
Portland, ME N/A
Chicago N/A
Lazaro Cardenas (Mex) 30.3%
Mobile 29.3%
Honolulu 26.4%
Vancouver/Prince Rupert (Can) 12.4%
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 9.8%
Charleston 9.6%
Veracruz (Mex) 9.6%
Manzanillo (Mex) 9.6%
Anchorage 7.4%
Baltimore 7.3%
Altamira (Mex) 5.7%
Miami/FTL/WPB 3.2%
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 3.0%
Jacksonville 2.6%
Seattle/Tacoma 1.7%
Montreal (Can) 0.9%
LA/Long Beach 0.9%
Savannah 0.7%
Tampa 0.6%
NY/NJ 0.5%
Oakland/Richmond/SF 0.1%
Boston -2.6%
New Orleans -2.6%
San Juan (PR) -4.1%
Philadelphia -6.1%
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA -7.2%
In terms of sheer volume of TEUs, Jax is one of only a handful of container ports in the country, and while it is at the back of the pack, it probably has some of the most room to grow. In my research, I came across the largest ship to enter SF Bay (1,200 ft MSC Fabiola)...it couldn't dock at MSC's berths at Long Beach due to the height of the Gerald Desmond Bridge (155 ft clearance, lower than Dames Point), and instead had to dock at Hanjin's berths. So even the largest ports with the most funding and the best access to the largest markets have their shortcomings and infrastructure roadblocks.
But continuing on...how much room does LA/Long Beach have to grow? Oakland? SeaTac? NY/NJ? Hampton Roads/Newport News? Houston? Miami/Port Everglades? These are all natural gateway markets for goods, services, and immigrants, but they do face limitations due to their current size and configurations.
LA/Long Beach 14,123,376
NY/NJ 5,529,913
Seattle/Tacoma 3,580,626
Vancouver/Prince Rupert (Can) 3,278,017
Savannah 2,966,213
Oakland/Richmond/SF 2,344,424
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 2,105,886
Miami/FTL/WPB 2,063,815
Manzanillo (Mex) 1,930,893
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 1,922,529
Charleston 1,514,585
San Juan (PR) 1,423,192
Montreal (Can) 1,375,327
Lazaro Cardenas (Mex) 1,242,777
Honolulu 1,187,024
Jacksonville 923,660
Veracruz (Mex) 799,389
Baltimore 677,876
Altamira (Mex) 578,685
New Orleans 464,834
Anchorage 454,777
Philadelphia 273,190
Mobile 218,844
Boston 187,747
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA 183,202
Tampa 39,882
Baton Rouge 0
Portland, ME 0
Chicago 0
And just for shits and giggles, port/port conglomerates by tonnage (US measurements).
FOREIGN IMPORTS
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 121,326,782
LA/Long Beach 77,130,679
NY/NJ 65,406,950
Philadelphia 18,867,225
New Orleans 18,486,234
Oakland/Richmond/SF 18,102,420
Savannah 16,720,274
Baton Rouge 15,066,060
Mobile 14,709,539
Seattle/Tacoma 13,859,704
Baltimore 13,222,656
Portland, ME 11,738,281
Miami/FTL/WPB 10,778,396
Boston 10,760,202
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 9,672,439
Charleston 9,477,707
Jacksonville 7,513,504
Tampa 4,851,071
San Juan (PR) 4,602,736
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA 3,986,395
Chicago 2,428,057
Honolulu 718,641
Anchorage 503,739
Clearly some of these cities are strictly oil (Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Mobile)
FOREIGN EXPORTS
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 91,911,851
LA/Long Beach 48,030,741
Savannah 33,107,797
Oakland/Richmond/SF 30,448,241
Seattle/Tacoma 25,999,391
NY/NJ 24,087,067
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 21,490,474
New Orleans 19,747,780
Mobile 14,936,810
Miami/FTL/WPB 8,037,867
Baton Rouge 6,984,976
Charleston 6,016,320
Tampa 5,600,738
Jacksonville 2,489,201
Boston 1,611,277
San Juan (PR) 432,150
Honolulu 362,361
Portland, ME 23,980
Anchorage 9,999
Philadelphia 0
Baltimore 0
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA 0
Chicago 0
DOMESTIC
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 70,721,272
NY/NJ 49,678,657
New Orleans 38,940,698
Baton Rouge 35,820,864
Mobile 25,906,034
Tampa 20,956,104
LA/Long Beach 20,106,605
Oakland/Richmond/SF 13,678,847
Honolulu 11,576,697
Miami/FTL/WPB 11,220,638
Philadelphia 11,010,701
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 9,914,650
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA 9,743,605
Baltimore 8,100,274
Jacksonville 6,824,886
Boston 6,035,639
Seattle/Tacoma 6,030,044
San Juan (PR) 5,992,374
Charleston 2,422,591
Savannah 2,351,500
Anchorage 2,270,172
Portland, ME 1,415,707
Chicago 0
TOTAL TONNAGE
Houston/Galveston/Texas City 283,959,905
LA/Long Beach 146,949,636
NY/NJ 141,334,875
New Orleans 77,174,712
Oakland/Richmond/SF 62,229,508
Baton Rouge 57,871,900
Mobile 55,552,383
Savannah 52,179,571
Seattle/Tacoma 45,889,139
Hampton Roads/Norfolk 41,077,563
Miami/FTL/WPB 31,878,830
Tampa 31,407,913
Philadelphia 29,877,926
Baltimore 21,322,930
Boston 19,091,724
Charleston 17,916,618
Jacksonville 16,827,591
Portland, OR/Vancouver, WA 13,730,000
Portland, ME 13,177,968
Honolulu 12,657,699
San Juan (PR) 11,027,260
Anchorage 5,327,015
Chicago 3,739,679
Clearly there are themes here. But Jacksonville is in the running if it wants to tackle growth in global trade. Air cargo only goes so far and there are only so many ports in coastal cities with access to water-rail transfer and convenience to large markets.
Quote from: simms3 on September 24, 2013, 10:48:23 PM
In terms of sheer volume of TEUs, Jax is one of only a handful of container ports in the country, and while it is at the back of the pack, it probably has some of the most room to grow. In my research, I came across the largest ship to enter SF Bay (1,200 ft MSC Fabiola)...it couldn't dock at MSC's berths at Long Beach due to the height of the Gerald Desmond Bridge (155 ft clearance, lower than Dames Point), and instead had to dock at Hanjin's berths. So even the largest ports with the most funding and the best access to the largest markets have their shortcomings and infrastructure roadblocks.
But continuing on...how much room does LA/Long Beach have to grow? Oakland? SeaTac? NY/NJ? Hampton Roads/Newport News? Houston? Miami/Port Everglades? These are all natural gateway markets for goods, services, and immigrants, but they do face limitations due to their current size and configurations.
Just reading up on my own local port system, the Port of Oakland has a rather informative Wiki page.
Quote
In 1962, the Port of Oakland began to admit container ships. Container traffic greatly increased the amount of cargo loaded and unloaded in the Port. By the late 1960s, the Port of Oakland was the second largest port in the world in container tonnage. However, depth and navigation restrictions in San Francisco Bay limited its capacity, and by the late 1970s it had been supplanted by the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach as the major container port on the West Coast.
...
One of the main limitations to growth was the inability to transfer containers to rail lines, all cranes historically operating between ocean vessels and trucks. In the 1980s the Port of Oakland began the evaluation of development of an intermodal container transfer capability, i.e. facilities that would allow trans-loading of containers from vessels to either trucks or rail modes. The Port retained VZM, Korve Engineering and Earth Metrics to perform engineering and environmental studies to allow detailed engineering to proceed.[3] In 1987, on behalf of the Oakland port Commission, Allen Broussard led a group of 72 lawyers and city officials on a 3-week long trip to China meeting the Mayor of Shanghai, Jiang Zemin (Shanghai is twinned with San Francisco)[4]
Completion of the resulting rail intermodal facility occurred in 2002. That brought the cumulative investment of port expansion to over 1.4 billion dollars since 1962, half of which was comprised by the intermodal facility. In the early first decade of the 21st century, the new intermodal rail facility along with severe congestion at the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach caused some trans-Pacific shippers to move some of their traffic to the Port of Oakland (especially if the final destination is not in Southern California but lies farther east). Also, the Port is now reaping the benefits of investment in post-panamax cranes, dredging, and the transfer of military property, which has now been used for expansion.[5]
Deepening of the port from 42 feet (13 m) to 50 feet (15 m) to accommodate larger ships has been completed. The ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, Seattle and Tacoma were already 50 feet (15 m) deep. The $432 million project was finished in September 2009.[6] Some 6,000,000 cubic yards (4,600,000 m3) of mud from the dredging was deposited at the western edge of Middle Harbor Shoreline Park to become a 188-acre (76 ha) shallow-water wetlands habitat for marine and shore life.[7] Further dredging followed in 2011, to maintain the navigation channel.[8][9] Prior to the March 2012 arrival of the MSC Fabiola, the largest container ship ever to enter the San Francisco Bay, the Port of Oakland prepared by checking channel depth and dredging as needed. The ship arrived drawing less than its full draft of 50 feet 10 inches (15.5 m) because it held only three-quarters of a load.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Oakland
So checking up on articles used for Wiki article, I found this from SF Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Port-of-Oakland-digs-deep-for-greater-capacity-3216558.php)
QuoteThe recession hammered the Port of Oakland as imports from Asia plummeted and exports slowed, but the recent completion of a $432 million project to deepen Oakland's harbor preps the port to compete with other top trade cities when the economy improves, officials and experts say.
The 12-year project, funded with $188 million from the port and $244 million in federal dollars, excavated most of Oakland's terminals from 42-feet to 50-feet, allowing them to accommodate modern, large cargo ships at lower tides even when the vessels are fully loaded with goods.
Prior to the work, ships might have been forced to unload some cargo at other ports before sailing to Oakland or schedule calls at the port around higher tides, port officials said.
Oakland's West Coast competitors, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Seattle and Tacoma, Wash., all have harbors that are 50 feet or deeper. So far, however, Oakland has been able to keep pace. The port is the fifth busiest in the United States, behind Los Angeles, Long Beach, New York and Savannah, Ga.
"This keeps us in play with the big boys," said Jean Banker, the port's maritime division finance manager. "We will always be a major port because we've got that kind of depth; Oakland will retain global gateway status."
...
Terminal operators at the port say Oakland needed to deepen the harbor to stay competitive when the economy picks up.
"It was huge that the port was able to accomplish" the dredging, said Mike Porte, the general manager at TraPac, a terminal operator. "The ships worldwide are larger and they sit lower in the water; if they hadn't done it, the carriers wouldn't be able to bring ships in and we would have become a backwater port."
Dave Sanford, director of policy and legislation at the American Association of Port Authorities, said that experts in the shipping industry believe that the 50-foot harbors will be necessary to handle the influx of goods from Asia in the coming years.
Before the economic downturn, it was widely believed that imports from China would double by 2020. And in 2004, Southern California's lack of cargo capacity left ships stranded off the coast unable to offload goods.
At the time, Oakland's commerce was weighted toward exports. For several years now, the port has tried to increase its imports and had succeeded when the economy went south.
"The economy is showing signs of rebounding, so we would expect that in a relatively short period of time the economics prior to the downturn will resume and Oakland's decision to deepen its harbor will be viewed as a wise one," Sanford said.
Interesting how Oakland went from busiest cargo port in world in 60s when it opened to almost irrelevant by the late 2000s, to now back to being one of the most important national, perhaps even global ports. Could Jacksonville follow in footsteps? Maybe Mayport's stagnation and wasteful use of such prime land is not so valuable after all, and that could be a good place for a deepwater port with larger cranes and a wide turning basin, protection from tides, and convenience to sea? It's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.
QuoteIt's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.
Except without rail.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 24, 2013, 11:09:29 PM
QuoteIt's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.
Except without rail.
It's obviously never going to happen, but should the city quit forcing itself to rely on the military, which over the past 10-15 years has let the city down, and start lobbying to re-use Mayport in another way (let VA have all those small, less-crew modern naval ships), then if the city were actually serious - the money it would need to spend to reconfigure Mayport to commercial port would be far greater than bringing rail to the port. Plus, it would eliminate the need to dredge and deepen the SJR, thus working to protect the environment, drinking water, PWC use, and scenery.
A fully functional commercial port at the basin/mouth of the SJR combined with what's still operating at Talleyrand/Blount Island probably means a lot more for the local economy than whatever Mayport's saying it gives the city with its constant cuts, fewer and fewer ships, and constant political loss to other jurisdictions.
Not to mention more port = more union jobs, which means more political sway in Washington.
This is basically describing your initial idea, I think...re-use Mayport. Aside from rail connection or lack thereof, it's physically and geographically configured like a smaller LA/Long Beach.
"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 24, 2013, 11:30:12 PM
"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.
What has the military gotten us with Washington? And I think it depends on the political climate, but cities with higher numbers of union jobs have demonstrated that they can more easily bring the bacon home...fact. Manufacturing and industry are roaring back...Jacksonville is either going to position itself or not and you can be sure that a larger port means more union jobs, just like a higher population in general means more unionized teachers and government workers, and more union jobs means more sway with union leadership and a louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers, who are also coincidentally the elected leadership most likely to fund things like ports, transit, and other infrastructure perks that we all want (they believe in public infrastructure and of course love the fact that construction is unionized).
Defense contractors and US Navy in general have net emigrated from NE FL over last couple decades, or been bought up and taken elsewhere. Jax has nothing on VA, San Antonio, SD, ME, WA, DC area, CO, or any other major military locations with major military political advantages. Face up?
Quote from: simms3 on September 24, 2013, 11:27:41 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 24, 2013, 11:09:29 PM
QuoteIt's configured like port of LA/Long Beach.
Except without rail.
It's obviously never going to happen, but should the city quit forcing itself to rely on the military, which over the past 10-15 years has let the city down.
I'd suggest the military didn't let the city down, it was BRAC, a political commission that closed Cecil. The Navy then decided to try and move ALL of it's VA master jet base employment to Jax and little Johnny went crazy (a short trip for him) and nixed the whole plan. He surmised that everyone knew that 50 jobs loading tires on a semi truck were easily worth 20,000 acres of technical military support jobs. This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.
QuoteThe USS New York, an amphibious transport dock currently deployed in the Middle East — will arrive at Mayport next year. The following year two more ships will arrive: the USS Iwo Jima, an amphibious assault ship, and the USS Fort McHenry, a dock landing ship.
The three ships make up an amphibious ready group, or ARG, now based in Norfolk, Va.
Mabus said in February that the group would arrive no later than 2015. On Friday, though, he announced that the date had been moved up.
Mayport will also see the arrival of eight littoral combat ships by the end of 2019, Mabus said. The first LCS will arrive in 2016. Each of those ships — new Navy combat ships designed to go fast and operate in shallow, near-coastline waters — have about 40 full-time crew members.
U.S. Rep. Ander Crenshaw, R-Fla., said the arrival of the ARG and LCSs points to a bright future at Mayport.
"I think this shows how important Mayport is, in terms of national security," Crenshaw said following the announcement.
"The sooner they bring the ships here, the sooner they can take advantage of this strategic location."
The amphibious ready group's job is to transport Marine Corps infantry, aircraft and supplies into combat around the globe.
"This is one of the most flexible, most lethal, most important things we have in the Navy," Mabus said.
The move will not bring additional Marines into the area, but it will bring about 2,000 sailors and their families, as well as jobs, to the First Coast.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-06-15/story/navy-bring-three-ship-amphibious-group-mayport-early#ixzz2fuckYcxU
Quote from: simms3 on September 25, 2013, 12:06:35 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 24, 2013, 11:30:12 PM
"More union jobs" means more sway in Washington that the military? Okay dude.
What has the military gotten us with Washington? And I think it depends on the political climate, but cities with higher numbers of union jobs have demonstrated that they can more easily bring the bacon home...fact. Manufacturing and industry are roaring back...Jacksonville is either going to position itself or not and you can be sure that a larger port means more union jobs, just like a higher population in general means more unionized teachers and government workers, and more union jobs means more sway with union leadership and a louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers, who are also coincidentally the elected leadership most likely to fund things like ports, transit, and other infrastructure perks that we all want (they believe in public infrastructure and of course love the fact that construction is unionized).
Defense contractors and US Navy in general have net emigrated from NE FL over last couple decades, or been bought up and taken elsewhere. Jax has nothing on VA, San Antonio, SD, ME, WA, DC area, CO, or any other major military locations with major military political advantages. Face up?
Ha, you're right, Simms, we should totally push out our largest single employer for a shot at a "louder voice with Democrats and congressional union sympathizers." Two major Navy bases sure doesn't hold a candle to bringing home some extra federal pork.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 25, 2013, 09:58:52 AM
This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.
I am curious where your source is for 3rd largest naval installation cluster? A long time ago I actually did a lot of personal research on military installations/clusters, their impacts, employment, etc etc. I found Jacksonville's local naval presence to be highly overrated.
NAS Oceana and NAS Pensacola > NAS Jax in most respects, though NAS Jax at this point is > than NS Mayport
NB Coronado + NB San Diego, NB Pearl Harbor, NS Norfolk, and NB Kitsap (Seattle) are all > NS Mayport
Don't get me started on Army because some cities like San Antonio are the penultimate army town.
Support services? Jax has a teeny tiny rickety naval hospital on NAS and that new, small outpatient VA Center in Springfield. Other cities have full on military hospitals, military academies, intelligence depots, major defense contractors' facilities. Even museums for crying out loud. Defense contracting, shipbuilding, intelligence, etc are all relatively nonexistent in Jax (and you'd think with a naval base that there would be some shipbuilding). In terms of direct employment:
Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton Roads (navy to the utmost max + a little bit of army/marine)
Washington DC (all branches + major defense contracting + intelligence)
San Antonio (army + air force)
Colorado Springs (air force + army + national defense)
San Diego (marine + navy + air force)
Seattle (still a huge naval presence there that surpasses Jax in almost every way + air force)
Honolulu (navy + air force)
And I'd even say Charleston to a degree since relative to its size it has a huge military presence (and now with Boeing there it's a defense contracting operation too)
Anyone can do their own research, but reality is reality. Jax has always considered itself a military town, and it is, but it hasn't tapped into or been able to truly tap into the bottomless pit of resources that the military can provide. The other cities all have so many civilian support services and support industries and generally more well known as military towns for this reason.
Washington Navy Yard (16,000 employees) at this point directly employs more people than Mayport (14,000 employees).
According to This September Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2013909053_newcommander12.html) article,
QuoteOlson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.
Mayport has a shrinking number of active-duty personnel (14,000 according to a bunch of shady sources), and only 1,054 civilian employees (according to FTU this year), and no contractors.
Bottom line is that other cities have much higher military employment, funding, services, and infrastructure than Jacksonville and it's another case of the bubble syndrom where locals think their shit is so large and important (too big to fail) when that's not the case. I'd argue that Mayport just isn't that big of a deal...a port there could be a much larger impact to the local economy, and because military funding is limited and related to political power (which Jax clearly has none), then I'd rather be at the mercy of growing global trade markets.
Quote from: simms3 on September 25, 2013, 11:00:32 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 25, 2013, 09:58:52 AM
This little corner of the military constitutes the 3rd largest Naval installation cluster in the nation, with nearly $2 billion in economic impact. Despite the dreams of the 'let's just play nice' crowd, the Navy isn't going anywhere soon. Several bases in the north have recently consolidated their functions at NAS JAX/MAYPORT... note the explosion of new development on these bases. We've become the fleet home base for the 4th Fleet Meanwhile the new Marine Corps Logistic Command base opened on Blount Island. For the record, NAS JAX is the only military installation in the nation that was purchased by a citizen funding drive and given to the Navy.
I am curious where your source is for 3rd largest naval installation cluster?
Only Norfolk and San Diego are larger, and had we allowed or should we allow Cecil, White House, Lee or Lake City to be reactivated as a master jet base, we'd be number one or two. Actually I think LEE FIELD in Green Cove as the best location of all for a relocated master jet base.
My data comes straight from the CNIC (Commander Naval Installation Command) here is a small piece of their new 'Welcome to NAS' package.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Doccuments%20Reports/ScreenShot2013-09-25at53959PM_zpsa7e59343.png)
QuoteA long time ago I actually did a lot of personal research on military installations/clusters, their impacts, employment, etc etc. I found Jacksonville's local naval presence to be highly overrated.
NAS Oceana and NAS Pensacola > NAS Jax in most respects, though NAS Jax at this point is > than NS Mayport
NB Coronado + NB San Diego, NB Pearl Harbor, NS Norfolk, and NB Kitsap (Seattle) are all > NS Mayport
Don't get me started on Army because some cities like San Antonio are the penultimate army town.
The US Navy organized and operated the 4Th Fleet in 1943 (mid WWII) to control the South Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. It served many amazing missions during and right after the war then was disbanded in 1950, 12 years later the huge reserve fleet base (400+ ships) at Green Cove Springs was closed. In 2008 the 4Th Fleet was reestablished at Mayport Florida, an organizational Fleet which takes command of ships operating within it's area. They have five missions: support for peacekeeping, Humanitarian Assistance, Disaster Relief (HADR), traditional maritime exercises, and counterdrug support operations. Here's a great little video of the boys from Mayport in the waters of my adopted home, Colombia conducting joint exercises. FYI, the simple gold, blue, red flag is Colombia, sometimes with the round naval emblem in it.
US FOURTH FLEET - MAYPORT/COLOMBIAhttp://www.youtube.com/v/K0YS6FN25vo?hl=en_US
(http://support%20services? %20Jax%20has%20a%20teeny%20tiny%20rickety%20naval%20hospital%20on%20NAS)
Let's not go there! When it was REALLY a rickety wooden complex sprawled under an oak forest they saved my life. According to doctors and surgeons saved with about 20 minutes to spare. I was about 7 years old, at home in Ortega and after a couple of days of a 'stomach virus,' my appendix burst. With what must have been 200 people in the waiting room for 'dependents' a doctor (Captain if I recall) called out to my father over the din of the crowd, 'Commander? Is that your boy? Bring him back here right now!' Here's a rendering of the hospital with the new surgical suites added.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/ScreenShot2013-09-25at83354PM_zps9bb38350.png)
QuoteAnd that new, small outpatient VA Center in Springfield. Other cities have full on military hospitals, military academies, intelligence depots, major defense contractors' facilities. Defense contracting, shipbuilding, intelligence, etc are all relatively nonexistent in Jax (and you'd think with a naval base that there would be some shipbuilding).
The VA isn't military, and actually needs a swift kick from the COJ. We have one of the fastest growing clinics in the nation, we also have the newest... and they 'forgot' to add any extra square footage? cafe/VA PX services (a real joy when your in for fasting labs and there is NOTHING to eat aftwards)? Poor connectivity though it's on a 30 year old planned Skyway route. No surgical-overnight suites. No direct sheltered connection with UF. Shortage of doctors and staff. And recently a positive free-fall in service/attitude.
Contracting? $1,233,384,999 dollars awarded to Duval Defense Contractors in 2011.
BAE bought Atlantic Shipbuilding and immediately started expanding it. They have yards in Norfolk, JAX, Mobile, San Diego, Pearl Harbor
QuoteBAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Key Developments
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins Share of $33,111,543 Federal Contract
Feb 28 13
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC was awarded a share of a $33,111,543 federal contract by the U.S. Army Contracting Command, Fort Eustis, Va., for dry-docking, cleaning, painting, repairs and modifications to the U.S. Army Active and Reserve vessels located on the East and Gulf of Mexico Coasts of United States.
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins $6,357,905 Federal Contract
Aug 17 12
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC won a $6,357,905 federal contract from the U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command, Jacksonville, Fla., for maintenance and repairs for USS Truxtun.
BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC Wins $1,010,593.00 Modified Federal Contract
Oct 24 11
Naval Sea Systems Command (Department of the Navy), SUPSHIP Jacksonville, has awarded a $1,010,593.00 modified federal contract on October 14 for maintenance, repair and rebuilding of equipment to BAE Systems Southeast Shipyards Mayport, LLC.
QuoteEmbraer to open aircraft assembly plant in January
Posted: September 19, 2013 - 12:04pm
By Roger Bull
Embraer will open its facility at Jacksonville International Airport in January, the company has announced. Then it will start making A-29 Super Tucano light attack support aircraft. The company held the ribbon-cutting ceremony for the 40,000-square-foot assembly hangar in March.
So far, it's filled 40 positions. The company announced it planned to hire a total of 50 people.
The Air Force ordered 20 A-29s from Embraer, with an option of another 20.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-09-19/story/embraer-open-aircraft-assembly-plant-january#ixzz2fxUVIFEa
QuoteSt. Augustine - NORTHROP GRUMAN
Job growth (2010-2012): 12.1%
St. Johns County's vitals are strong. It's the healthiest county in Florida and leads the state in public education. Plus, the weather's gorgeous year-round. No wonder highly educated talent is being wooed there in droves.
Opportunities in clean manufacturing are big here. 2G Cenergy, an advanced clean energy technologies company from Germany, chose St. Augustine for its first manufacturing center in the U.S. The company has already hired 50 employees in the area, and expects to add 70 more in the next four years.
Meanwhile, defense contractor Northrop Grumman plans to build an aircraft-production center that would bring in 400 jobs. MONEY MAGAZINE
As I've shown, we certainly have a full regional military hospital. Military academies are limited to West Point (Army) , Annapolis (NAVY-MARINES), Colorado Springs (Air Force) and New London (Coast Guard). There are a few private and state institutions still around but each branch has but one academy. Intelligence depots? Each military installation has intelligence departments, in the Navy AKA: 'Spooks.' Our own history cuts pretty deep too. Some of our boys helped break the Japanese Naval code prior to the battle of Midway and our Patrol Squadron 10, AKA: The Red Lancers, from NAS is the squadron that located and homed in on the Japanese fleet at Midway... Yeah, we've got intelligence.
That old Weekend Warrior base out at Camp Blanding? From 1940 to 1945, more than 800,000 Soldiers received all or part of their training at Camp Blanding. Today it has be remade into the new JOINT TRAINING CENTER.
QuoteFacilities and capabilities: Camp Blanding Joint Training Center serves a wide range of customers, including – but not limited to – all components of the U.S. military, international forces, federal and state law enforcement agencies and others. Camp Blanding is committed to and capable of supporting both federal and state missions. Utilizing state and federal funds, the post continually searches for new ways to improve existing facilities, create new ranges and construct buildings to better support the needs of its customers.
As a result of the increase in training there has been a need for new facilities as well as upgrading excising facilities. Having quality facilities is important to Camp Blanding being able to provide quality training opportunities for these units and individuals.
On base billeting facilities can accommodate 3,000 personnel (i.e., one standard Army brigade consisting of four battalion areas). Each battalion area has company dining facilities, orderly rooms, officer/enlisted barracks, a supply building and a battalion headquarters building.
QuoteBoeing's current 737-900ER planes.
Unison is a subsidiary of General Electric and makes electronic components for the two types of engines that will power the new 737s.
Jason Swinny, manager of the Jacksonville plant on Baymeadows Way, said most of the engines are made in Durham, N.C., and Cincinnati. But the turbine ignitions, sensors and harnesses are made at the plant here.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-07-12/story/airlines-order-boeing-737s-good-news-jacksonville-factory#ixzz2fxfIS0Jx
The drones? The fighter repairs? Boeing Jacksonville at Cecil Field.
QuoteIn terms of direct employment:
Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton Roads (navy to the utmost max + a little bit of army/marine)
Washington DC (all branches + major defense contracting + intelligence)
San Antonio (army + air force)
Colorado Springs (air force + army + national defense)
San Diego (marine + navy + air force)
Seattle (still a huge naval presence there that surpasses Jax in almost every way + air force)
Honolulu (navy + air force)
And I'd even say Charleston to a degree since relative to its size it has a huge military presence (and now with Boeing there it's a defense contracting operation too)
Anyone can do their own research, but reality is reality. Jax has always considered itself a military town, and it is, but it hasn't tapped into or been able to truly tap into the bottomless pit of resources that the military can provide. The other cities all have so many civilian support services and support industries and generally more well known as military towns for this reason.
Washington Navy Yard (16,000 employees) at this point directly employs more people than Mayport (14,000 employees).
According to This September Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2013909053_newcommander12.html) article,
QuoteOlson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.
I suspect your information is slightly off due to not being 1). LOCAL 2). IN MILITARY SERVICE 3). A VETERAN. Certainly we can do better, but with the present administration in DC, the military is the 'great demon'. I expect a full return once sanity returns, meanwhile just keep saying how well those factories are doing, as I watch freight car loadings fall year after year. JUST SAYIN' ;)
^Ah, the singular pleasure of seeing someone who doesn't know what they're talking about get schooled by someone who does. Good to see you back, Ock.
^^^
1) You are so transparent
1B) You'll take any counterpoint/argument against any statement I make as bible because you have this weird strong dislike for me
1C) You don't have to be a former vet to be able to do quantitative and qualititive research into the current conditions of the military across the country - we're not discussing anything that is over anyone's heads, we are discussing basic numbers that anyone can look up and research, and we are debating points about politics and attempting to provide examples that back up our points. We aren't talking about payloads and military specific information here. FYI in case you couldn't read.
1D) I will now take each of Ock's points and make my own counterargument
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A) In terms of employed personnel on a single naval base, then my research indicates differently.
NAS Jax - 23,000 active-duty + civilian employees (CNIC does not disclose, this came from Wiki)
Mayport - 14,000 active-duty personnel according to a random sketch site since nobody else quotes numbers for Mayport
according to a 2013 FTU article, basing 14 Littoral Combat ships at Mayport by 2020 could bring 1,700 additional employees...I bet more than 1,700 workers built a single one of those ships, so we see naval employment isn't really going upNAS Pensacola - 16,000 military and 7,400 civilian employees (total 23,400); number directly from CNIC
NAS Oceana - 10,000 military and 1,700 civilian (total 11,700); number directly from CNIC
To summarize San Diego, from navynews.com:
QuoteHaving military personnel and commands in San Diego is no small gesture -- as the Department of Defense brings about $9.6 billion annually into the county. Much of that money comes from the large U.S. Navy presence in the area. Sixty-nine Navy ships call San Diego home -- nearly one-sixth of the Navy's entire fleet and about one-third of the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Close to 90,000 Navy personnel live in San Diego County with about 87 percent of the military population being male and about 13 percent female. Of the Navy personnel in San Diego, close to 40,000 are married and the total U.S. Navy family member count is 129,000. There are another 57,900 retired military personnel in San Diego County, just over 35,000 Marine Corps personnel and 22,500 Department of Defense civilian personnel. Most of the Navy personnel in San Diego are attached to ashore commands in San Diego.
Again to summarize naval activities in Seattle because CNIC doesn't quote figures, from Seattle Times in 2011 -
The navy there claims their base is the 3rd largest...sounds familiar!QuoteOlson, speaking at a Navy League luncheon, described the complexity and diversity of the Kitsap base. It's the third-largest Navy base in the U.S., with 13,000 active-duty personnel, 13,000 Department of Defense civilian employees and 10,000 contractors, totaling almost as many people as live in Bremerton.
According to Militaryinstallations.dod.mil (http://www.militaryinstallations.dod.mil/MOS/f?p=132:CONTENT:0::NO::P4_INST_ID%2CP4_INST_TYPE:7200%2CINSTALLATION), Honolulu still has the following:
QuoteNavy Specific Information:
Navy Active Duty 13,702
Navy Selected Reserve 1,076
Navy Retiree Personnel 4,842
Navy Civilian Personnel 14,183
Air Force Specific Information:
Active Duty Air Force 5,435
DoD and NAF Civilian Personnel 1,977
Total there = 33,803 navy + 7,412 Air Force (Jax has 37,000 navy + 1,054 navy civilians according to an FTU article from 2013 I dug up in earlier post)
San Antonio is also quite a large military center about in the same league as SD and Norfolk. According to multiple sources represented on SanAntonioEDF.com, direct military employment on bases in city limits is:
QuoteSan Antonio has four military bases
Randolph AFB - HQ for Air Education and Training Command and the Air Force Military Personnel Center.
Fort Sam Houston (Army) - Brooke Army Medical Center, Institute of Surgical Research, Defense Medical Readiness Training Institute.
Brooks City-Base (the former Brooks Air Force Base) - Human Systems Command, including School of Aerospace Medicine and the Air Force Center for Environmental Excellence.
Lackland Air Force Base - Air Force Basic Training and HQ for Air Force Intelligence Agency.
Total Military and Civilian-Related Employment in San Antonio
Lackland AFB
37,097
Fort Sam Houston
32,000
Randolph AFB
15,492
Brooks City-Base
5,275
TOTAL EMPLOYED
89,864
I could go on quoting and finding numbers (do I really need to dig into Norfolk area?), but when it comes to direct base employment, Jacksonville just doesn't fly with the really big boys and compares to lots of other "military cities" such as Honolulu, Seattle, Colorado Springs, DC, Jacksonville NC, Pensacola, Charleston, etc etc.
_________________________________________________________________________________
Regarding Defense spending (contracts for manufacture, shipbuilding, research, etc)...your examples are as follows:
1) $1.2B in Jax ($13.3B in San Antonio as a comparable)
2) BAE Systems Southeast Shipyard Mayport - ok, you may be a military vet but I'm pretty familiar with this shipyard, having grown up practically down the street from the former owner who sold to BAE (family friends) and I've probably boated past at least 50-75 times, docked on more than one occasion. Nobody would take offense at the reality that it is a repair yard mainly for yachts and large commercial boats, with an occasional repair/retrofit contract for a small naval ship. It doesn't register on the scale of "shipyard" in the classical sense, but yes, I would love to be sitting as high as George Gibbs right now (the former owner who made out very handsomely in the sale).
3) Embraer to open aircraft assembly plant in Jan-14
-So? The numbers aren't significant - we're talking a very small plane, likely 20 with option for 20 more (small numbers), employing 50 total (big whoop), and construction of 40,000 SF hangar (fits the small size planes ok I suppose)
4) Northrop Grumman "plans" to open a facility that would employ 400 - ok, well I'll wait until it happens.
I don't think anyone anywhere aside from maybe some hometown heros are claiming Jacksonville is a hotbed of DoD contracts, defense research, manufacturing of any kind, etc etc. Let's be a little realistic here. In terms of shipbuilding alone, there are plenty of large shipyards in the US that actually build large ships for private and DoD (Norfolk, SD, Bremerton, Maine, etc)
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The whole argument here is really not whether Jax is a major military operation or not. Lake originally made the point that Mayport could be converted to a commercial shipping terminal/port. I agreed and expounded on that, firmly believing it could happen (though we all know it won't). I did make the point that Mayport was no longer the power base it once was (it doesn't even homebase any carriers - there are multiple naval bases on both coasts that do, not just Norfolk...SD, Honolulu, and Bremerton in Seattle all do). I think Mayport is no longer highest and best use. I don't believe we should shut down NAS - I separate that from Mayport. But I also don't think Jax is the level of military town some locals may think it to be when it doesn't take much research, discussion, travel etc to learn that there are a host of cities with far more impactful military/DoD presences (not just in terms of bases, but contract facilities as by Northrop, Boeing, etc, and in terms of support and alternative things like schools, hospitals, etc).
Regarding the VA Center, that was my subtle way of saying that despite the large vet population in Jax, which the VA is meant to serve, the facilities are negligible when compared to most other city VAs in the US (and lots of these cities have large naval/army hospitals, too...much larger than what Jax has...usually open to civilians too).
This doesn't sound positive for dredging advocates:
QuoteDeep Water Now campaign will have to wait until later for congressional authorization of dredging Jacksonville's ship channel
A big push for deeper water at Jacksonville's port fell short Tuesday night in the U.S. House of Representatives.
The House Rules Committee voted against allowing the full House to consider an amendment offered by U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, that would have authorized a future 47-foot ship channel in Jacksonville.
The rejection means when the full House begins debate Wednesday on the Water Resources Development Act, there will be no chance of adding the deepened ship channel to the massive bill.
"We reached out to everyone we could," said Nick Martinelli, legislative affairs director for Brown. "We had a great effort."
QuoteJaxPort will probably have to wait at least two years to have another shot at getting authorization in a Water Resources Development Act.. But it could be even longer. Congress used to bring up water bills on a two-year timetable, but this water bill would be the first one since 2007.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-22/story/deep-water-now-campaign-will-have-wait-until-later-congressional#ixzz2iXksjJex
Oh, and then there's this:
QuoteShipping line mega alliance has no plans to call on Jaxport
The Port of Jacksonville doesn't even come in for a mention in the list of service routes recently unveiled by an alliance of the world's top three container shipping companies.
The P3 Network — an alliance of Maersk Line, CMA CGM and Mediterranean Shipping Co. — will operate 27 service loops around the world, according to information released by Mediterranean Shipping.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/22/jacksonville-left-out-p3-mega-alliance.html
http://www.mscgva.ch/news/library/p3_service_presentation.pdf
There is only so much money coming from DC for ports, JaxPORT would do well to have multiple strategies, 1) Aggregate & LNG port, 2) Cruise Ships at Mayport, 3) partner more with Brunswick/Savannah ports.
With 13 other ports in FL, and many others around the country, the pie seems to be much smaller. 1.2 billion seems like we have to travel to Mars to pick it up.
The P3 Network — an alliance of Maersk Line, CMA CGM and Mediterranean Shipping Co. — will call on Brunswick and Charleston.
I can't help but think that the Inland Port just opened by Charleston has helped their position immensely. Constrained by land, Charleston built a direct rail connection to an inland intermodal facility 200 miles inland. the new inland port gives them a huge capacity to handle container shipping and shippers access to 94 million people within a day's drive. they thought ahead.
Where is Charleston's inland port located?
Ever notice how living in Jacksonville can seem like a news vacuum ... apparently it was newsworthy enough for Miami ....
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/15/3690898/scs-inland-port-open-for-business.html
Its located in Greer, SC right near the BMW plant. BMW is already utilizing it as is many others. Apparently, moving the container site inland has eliminated a lot of unnecessary truck traffic and made it far more efficient for logistics. Like I said forward thinking.
Great idea to run a rail route inland. Did JM Family do this for their add-on site over near Pritchard Road? I think they have been trailering the vehicles, unless they come off the container yard near Pritchard/CSX.
^They have rail access. However, it may be used to ship vehicles out as opposed to going cross town.
Quote from: icarus on October 23, 2013, 11:40:37 AM
Ever notice how living in Jacksonville can seem like a news vacuum ... apparently it was newsworthy enough for Miami ....
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/15/3690898/scs-inland-port-open-for-business.html
Its located in Greer, SC right near the BMW plant. BMW is already utilizing it as is many others. Apparently, moving the container site inland has eliminated a lot of unnecessary truck traffic and made it far more efficient for logistics. Like I said forward thinking.
This sounds like what CSX is building in Winter Haven as a part of the Sunrail deal.
(http://www.siteselection.com/issues/2010/nov/images/IndustrialArea_27752_2.jpg)
QuoteIn a similar vein, CSX is investing additional monies into a large intermodal facility in Winter Haven, Fla., to be tied into the Ports of Tampa and Jacksonville. While still in the concept phase, this development will provide direct access to the growing populations of the Southeast, while virtually turning the I-4 corridor — an already vibrant economy — into a massive, cross-state dock.
http://www.cargobusinessnews.com/Nov_08/inland_ports.html
I wasn't familiar with CSX's project in Winter Haven but of course FEC is moving ahead with the intermodal terminal at Port Everglades.
I think in all instances the Ports realized the limited amount of real estate and how much more sense it made to make the staging area for containers away from the port and closer to the highway infrastructure as well as the ability to continue on via rail.