Metro Jacksonville

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JTA BROOKLYN STATION RENDERING

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BROOKLYN STATION SWITCH VEERING OFF TO THE LEFT IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

The JACKSONVILLE SKYWAY is in the TU, Mayport Mirror and St. Augustine Record today. The article is by Mark Woods and he did an excellent job, in fact I could really find any fault in it.

Quote"Now, in the wake of the latest Skyway news, I'm ready to embrace what might seem like an even crazier idea: extending the Punch Line."

"One of the arguments against streetcars, the Skyway, the ferry and pretty much everything other than roads is this: They don't pay for themselves."



"According to a recent report, highways pay for themselves less today than ever. And new or expanded roadways are even less likely to pay for themselves in the future."

Check it out... Well okay I'm in it, but the star of this article is both the Skyway and Mr. Woods. Well worth the read.

To see the complete article check out:

http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-09-18/mark-woods-extending-skyway-has-some-merit

http://mayportmirror.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-09-18/mark-woods-extending-skyway-has-some-merit

Nat Ford had an editorial in the TU yesterday about the Skyway extension also. Think it is premium content though. Can anyone link it?

I think it is interesting that the JTA rendering posted at the beginning of the thread has what appears to be a streetcar in the corner. Hint at things to come?

it is also worthy to note that Nat Ford is on the Chamber trip to Charlotte....and they recently rode the light rail!

I like what I've read, I have a few complaints and ideas to fix them.

1, First and foremost, the buses need to run later(especially during weekends) as well as more often.

2, The skyway needs to run in the same way.

3, On Wednesday mornings the maintenance crew is shutting sown the escalators to "test" them. They also have half of the system shut down, running only one track. JTA should put those crews on 3rd shift (graveyard shift) in order not to disrupt the morning commute. Most other major cities do that.

4, stop allowing the drivers to take mid-route breaks. It's one thing to stop for a few minutes if you're ahead of schedule. It's quite another when you're getting off at the last stop and just before you get there, the driver stops for lunch for 20 minutes. Make them finish the rout "BEFORE" they stop off at a gas station.

5, Improve the urban core buses first, run them by the places that people want to go, such as the landing, east bay st, The sports complex etc. And again, run them later in the night and more often.

Mr Ford,

I was glad and hopefull when I found out that you were chosen to run JTA. Being a part of major transit systems in some of our biggest cities, you should tell the powers that be that the way the JTA has failed us in the past is unacceptable and that you need them to stay out of the way and let you do your job to the best of your ability. I hope that you take everything I said and consider it in your policies. Thank you for your time and good luck dealing with the city leaders.

Quote from: urbaknight on September 18, 2013, 02:14:29 PM
I like what I've read, I have a few complaints and ideas to fix them.

1, First and foremost, the buses need to run later(especially during weekends) as well as more often.

Absolutely the bus routes that reach JU, UNF, FSCJ (all until last class) and perhaps any of the larger night schools + major entertainment districts, The beaches and Mayport and NAS JAX.

Quote2, The skyway needs to run in the same way.

Certainly until about 30 minutes after the last cluster of entertainment venues close down. 

Quote3, On Wednesday mornings the maintenance crew is shutting sown the escalators to "test" them. They also have half of the system shut down, running only one track. JTA should put those crews on 3rd shift (graveyard shift) in order not to disrupt the morning commute. Most other major cities do that

.

Except for emergencies: EXACTLY. Let's add clean the elevators so they don't smell like pee, clean the windshields every night, and allow bicycles on a space available basis.

As for the single track, IF both are functional, the Rosa Parks-Kings Avenue should hold one track. The JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL-Central Station should hold the second track. Likewise any Brooklyn addition. IF the Skyway ever gets into the eastern part of downtown (and it should - at least to Newnan, perhaps Berkman) Then the tracks should be flipped, Eastside to Kings Avenue on track 1, JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL-Central/Brooklyn-Central should hold track 2. This eliminates most of the switches enroute. Less maintenance on the mechanical movements.

Quote4, stop allowing the drivers to take mid-route breaks. It's one thing to stop for a few minutes if you're ahead of schedule. It's quite another when you're getting off at the last stop and just before you get there, the driver stops for lunch for 20 minutes. Make them finish the route "BEFORE" they stop off at a gas station.

Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner need to be posted in the schedules and perhaps on the destination curtain when the bus approaches on the run which will have the break:  "20 minute break... 1st and Main... 12 noon.... This run only..."

Quote5, Improve the urban core buses first, run them by the places that people want to go, such as the landing, east bay st, The sports complex etc. And again, run them later in the night and more often.

How about get them out of most of the west side of downtown (Skyway territory) except for Duval, Beaver, State, Union and the Broad and Jefferson BRT routes. This would allow local buses to turn back at Rosa Parks, Kings Avenue, JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL (the JRTC or the Prime Osborn to the unwashed masses). Shaving as much as 15 minutes off of the runs would allow better utilization without any extra employee hours (the most expensive part of transit).

Run the South Bank BRT down Prudential rather then Riverplace... They missed the boat by not including BRT lanes in the Overland Bridge collector/distributer roads. This would have allowed them to JET to Atlantic/Beach.

QuoteMr Ford,

I was glad and hopefull when I found out that you were chosen to run JTA. Being a part of major transit systems in some of our biggest cities, you should tell the powers that be that the way the JTA has failed us in the past is unacceptable and that you need them to stay out of the way and let you do your job to the best of your ability. I hope that you take everything I said and consider it in your policies. Thank you for your time and good luck dealing with the city leaders.

DITTO! And lets lean on the Council to get that mobility plan FULLY FUNDED.

Quote from: icarus on September 18, 2013, 02:01:23 PM
I think it is interesting that the JTA rendering posted at the beginning of the thread has what appears to be a streetcar in the corner. Hint at things to come?

That's a PCT, not a real streetcar, in that old rendering.

This is how it was done in MEDELLIN... Jacksonville needs to pull it's head out. Can you imagine this from downtown down the Arlington Expressway to the Beaches, or alongside the CSX to Orange Park? Granted, we don't need anything this fancy, but Light Rail would do the trick!


Nat? Are you watching?  ...And the boys blamed me for the Skyway when it was on an embarrassing international slam dunk on a network special.

QuoteNat? Are you watching?  ...And the boys blamed me for the Skyway when it was on an embarrassing international slam dunk on a network special.

Ock, they blamed you for that special on the Skyway? I know that I have said this before, but the JTA should really look into putting some standard gauge rail on the Skyway Elevated Structure! Ock, you said that the Skyway Structure could support Light Rail vehicles, but can it support 4 to 6 car trains? Could it support something like Chicago's 5000 series cars! I'm salivating just thinking about that possibility! That would be awesome!

The reason that I mentioned Chicago's el/subway cars is because I know they make some tight turns on the Loop! The turns of the Skyway are very tight, so the design of any type of vehicle would have to take that into consideration. (But the trolleys made those same turns)

People always mention the old S-Line! With the conversion of the Skyway to rail, the S-Line could be incorporated into that plan! Imagine that! It doesn't even have to be built in great length! Build it in chunks! It could be built from the end of Terminal Sta. (drop to grade) to Kings Rd. on the S-Line! That could be the start of something beastly! The extension to Brooklyn would be very useful with a conversion of track! That $200 million that was initially spent on the system would look like a good investment! The politicians would look like geniuses!

I just can't figure out how the trains would get over the Acosta Bridge! It would be an impressive sight!
The Sports Complex is a must! The trains could continue down Bay St., and wrap around on the old line that used to go by that stadium area

(I still don't understand why the railroads didn't build through tracks from Jax Terminal to the north to provide that very connection through downtown! It's probably the same reason that there is no through track from Grand Central to Penn Station, or that LA Union Station wants to build through track now!)

I seriously doubt that Skyway infrastructure could support the type of heavy rail cars that the CTA's "L" utilizes. Maybe it can get away with streetcars but even that would require a major retrofit.

Actually the weight difference isn't that great 57,000 pounds for the 5000 series cars and 48,000 for the Flexity Light Rail cars for example. But the other infrastructure for heavy rail + expense could never be justified in Jax... probably for another 100 years or so. Light rail, rapid streetcar, and automated rapid transit as well as a limited amount of monorail product could be purchased MUCH cheaper and would do the job better for a city of our size. Sorry, but if you've just got to have modern heavy rail, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami and Baltimore are your best bets.

Yes the Skyway became the instant joke of the Colombian railroaders... so of course being the only Gringo from Jacksonville anywhere on the system, it quickly became 'my skyway,' LOL! It was all in fun but BOY did they have some fun with it.  ;D

Yeah, it's more than just weight. A good chunk of the Skyway's infrastructure would have to be ripped out and replaced to accommodate the differences in slope and radius of curves. Add in the fact that Jax is closer in scale, size and density to Dayton, OH than it is to a first tier American city like Chicago, and it makes little sense to invest in the expense of heavy rail in a community this small.

Great work Ock!!  Glad to see you in the news again.   :)

I liked Mark's article.   Seems he has been lurking here and learning a thing or two about our transportation possibilities.

Well done everyone!  Let's keep working on getting more of our population engaged in our transportation future and hopefully we'll have a strong grassroots support system for something big.

This is something along the lines of what I had in mind for the drop to grade level from Terminal Station to the S-Line, or the drop could be from Brooklyn to Riverside/Avondale for some streetcar running! The same could be said for Bay St. toward the stadium!
I see what Ock was talking about when it comes to the trains being wider than the Skyway's right-of-way on the els. LA also (wisely) put cat walks on the el sections! The current Skyway sections with two monorail beams might equal one side of these track structures! I still think that conversion to standard should be considered!
(http://images.nycsubway.org/i82000/img_82627.jpg)

Country: United States
City: Los Angeles, CA
System: Los Angeles County MTA
Line: Metro Blue Line
Location: Del Amo
Car: P850/P865 (Nippon Sharyo, 1989-1994) 145
Photo by: Salaam Allah
Date: 3/8/2005

Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 08:35:56 AM
Yeah, it's more than just weight. A good chunk of the Skyway's infrastructure would have to be ripped out and replaced to accommodate the differences in slope and radius of curves. Add in the fact that Jax is closer in scale, size and density to Dayton, OH than it is to a first tier American city like Chicago, and it makes little sense to invest in the expense of heavy rail in a community this small.

RAPID STREETCAR could easily handle the Skyway grades and be MUCH LESS of an investment, but we may have to stick with a monorail or a rail system such as the one Severn-Lamb is marketing recently. Otherwise the width of regular streetcars would trash about 3' feet on every station platform. The worst thing about any full size rail vehicle is at the bottom of the Acosta Bridge grade on the north bank. The Skyway clears the bridge bent by a mere foot, and its squeezed between the bridges. This will dictate a smaller automated rapid transit system (which easily can run on rails) at much less cost then monorail. We could also go with monorail by the same company. Severn-Lamb came up through the amusement park industry and after building the Disney fleet graduated to the major leagues, but they still specialize in compact attractive vehicles. See the videos:

Quote from: Jason on September 19, 2013, 08:55:06 AM
Great work Ock!!  Glad to see you in the news again.   :)

I liked Mark's article.   Seems he has been lurking here and learning a thing or two about our transportation possibilities.

Well done everyone!  Let's keep working on getting more of our population engaged in our transportation future and hopefully we'll have a strong grassroots support system for something big.

Thank you Jason, we've got to get the advocacy moving and we already have a HEAVY WEIGHT endorsement. St. Augustine is playing with some pretty exciting plans which I'm working on. And now believe it or not... PALATKA too! (They once had a horsecar system - think MAIN STREET USA - DISNEY) Severn-Lamb built those cars too. Mark talked with me probably an hour and was very alert to the fine details... THANK YOU MARK! WELL DONE!

The little train that could
http://www.youtube.com/v/v0rUUZKE3LQ?hl=en_US

Notice the wide beam monorail at the very start of the video...just like ours.
http://www.youtube.com/v/iFC4RkCAsJ4?hl=en_US

Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 08:06:45 AM
I seriously doubt that Skyway infrastructure could support the type of heavy rail cars that the CTA's "L" utilizes. Maybe it can get away with streetcars but even that would require a major retrofit.

Quoteavatar 09/18/13 - 11:34 am00
Not to mention that the thing is almost 25 years old and will probably be due for some major repair work in the next few years - what is that going to cost?
http://mayportmirror.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-09-18/mark-woods-extending-skyway-has-some-merit

Chicago's 5000 series cars come from the thoughts of someone going to the extreme! (Me. Lol!)

"Avatar" brought up an interesting thought: The inevitable repair work that has to be done to the Skyway! The retrofit is coming anyway, so this is the perfect time to consider some upgrades to the Skyway. It has to be done! No one knows what to do with the Skyway, and that is why I say that they should rethink this while they have a window of opportunity! Look at how many times that the Matthews Bridge has been "repaired." How many times has the Arlington Expressway been "under construction?" The Skyway should get the same treatment instead of it just remaining redundant! Yeah, it's finally starting to show signs of life, but the Skyway needs a heart transplant!

(http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/umiii1.jpg)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2013, 08:21:42 AM
Actually the weight difference isn't that great 57,000 pounds for the 5000 series cars and 48,000 for the Flexity Light Rail cars for example. But the other infrastructure for heavy rail + expense could never be justified in Jax... probably for another 100 years or so. Light rail, rapid streetcar, and automated rapid transit as well as a limited amount of monorail product could be purchased MUCH cheaper and would do the job better for a city of our size. Sorry, but if you've just got to have modern heavy rail, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami and Baltimore are your best bets.

Something has to be done with that Skyway! Even if the UMIII's are still used, the system has too undergo some changes!
I like the monorail in certain cases! I could see a use--Miami-style--if the JTA connects something to the endpoints. Maybe, when commuter rail comes along, this thing can finally do what it was meant to do!

IMO, the Skyway should be viewed as a part of a regional transportation network.  Sometimes I think we tend to isolate it because it's our only form of a locally fixed transit component. We want to make it operate like a Chicago EL or NYC Subway when it isn't a heavy rail system.  It's literally a horizontal elevator that was designed to be a downtown circulator and nothing more.

Nevertheless, whatever, is addressed in its future should be done in a manner that has regional impact.  To me, this means not doing something just to do it.  If it makes more sense to add streetcar, BRT, LRT, etc. in a corridor that the Skyway was originally supposed to address or technologically it should not, so be it.

With that said, I believe the proposed commuter rail, streetcar corridors and a complete revamp of the bus system complement the Skyway pretty well.   Doing these things in a manner where they're coordinated with the Skyway's operations is effectively "doing" something with the Skyway.  Sort of like making it fare free is a form of "doing" something with the Skyway to enhance its performance.