Another meeting will begin shortly.
Not sure what it is but something like the distinct sound of a heartbeat is coming from the rooms speakers.
Overheard...
Owner of kickbacks said "Crime has gone from the day Kickbacks has opened until now." He does a swoop with his hand that demonstrates a downward slope. It looks like the officer readjusted the geography of crime reporting to be more central to Riverside and not North of Riverside.
lup-dup, lup-dup, lup-dup...
Meeting is on. Kay is breaking down the agenda.
Patrick the officer is up (He was asked to redraw boundaries and represent the crime stats; specifically, around the area around park and king):
He is breaking down "strictly traffic related reports" in the avondale area from August 2012 - August 2013.
In the course of 7 years there have been a reduction in phone calls to the police from the avondale region. Officer, compares numbers from 2005/2006 to 2012/2013. The calls were reduced by more than 200.
Susun:
Look, people are parking cars illegally all day but people are making calls when they come home they are making calls.
Officer:
The majority of violators are going to be residences.
Officer:
The majority of our actionable noise complaints we go to it and we listen and they are not significant. Not specifically regarding avondale but in general people complain about noise where it doesn't really exist.
*In avondale noise complaints occur around 11:30pm to 1am.
**It's worth noting that none of the crime reporting/noise violation/whatever is really relevant to the issue...parking. If anything, it is showing that the more people come to an area the less calls to police there are.
Officer Patrick:
* We're going over the traffic related calls right now in the King Street area. Jenks house owner was a little disappointed that most of the traffic related calls are not made at 2 am. Most traffic related calls are happening from 8am - 7pm. The officer said he expected the calls at 2am to be around 25 but they are at 14. By comparison there are about 24 call at 2PM. I'm wondering if the owner of Jenk's house would like to stop parking at 2pm as well.
By comparison in 2005/2006 there were 4,630 calls for service. In 2012/2013 that number drops to 3,040.
This is most important:
Calls for service in park and king are almost identical Monday - Saturday. It ranges from 416 - 472.
The peak call time is at 11PM at night at 197.
Officer:
Discusses the significant drop in calls for service from 2005 - 2013. He says "we call that a grand slam. It's not just down it's huge!" That peak time in 2005/2006 was at 5pm on a Wednesday. That tells us that there were a drug related issues. Now, the shift in calls has moved to Friday evenings.
*the cop kindly plays the role of a stern but understanding father, "If these numbers went back up to 2005 levels you'd be calling me everyday and not for illegally parked cars."
Officer:
Kudos to Ed for hiring an off duty officer. Cops should be outside not inside. Officers don't like to hear that... (laughter)
The stops were not just in the commercial district so it gave the opportunity for people to not have to take their cars into the commercial district.
The numbers of users are not in yet but we're looking at over 1000
Quote from: TheCat on September 16, 2013, 05:24:12 PM
Owner of kickbacks said "Crime has gone from the day Kickbacks has opened until now." He does a swoop with his hand that demonstrates a downward slope. It looks like the officer readjusted the geography of crime reporting to be more central to Riverside and not North of Riverside.
Quote from: stephendare on September 16, 2013, 05:54:20 PM
Since the opening of Kickbacks there has actually been a 30% reduction of crime and police calls in general. Wow.
My office is next-door to Kickbacks. Can't thank them enough for being there and being open nearly 24-7. I have no problems with parking and the activity level in the area makes working the occasional very late night almost pleasant.
*Glad to hear trolley event went well.
Kay:
Offers the idea of a TMA (Transportation Management Association) for businesses to form if JTA does not take this idea on.
Stephen:
It was one of the options presented by the consultant. It was refreshing to see you realize that perhaps the group isn't a bunch of parking nazis. Give the process a chance and the committee a chance. The reason for both merchants and residents in the group is to work out a compromise. Some residents will want restricted parking and some merchants won't want to do anything different. We'll figure it out.
Next week are community meetings to present the data and get feedback from merchants and residents.
Quote from: stephendare on September 16, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
Jennifer Maydachek the serial complainer for King Street who is sitting on the Commission has just arrived.
Ok, I gotta jump in here Stephen--not that this has anything to do with the parking issue, but I don't think "the serial complainer" is a fair label for this committee member unless you are also ok describing the particular nightclub in question that had the noise complaints called in as "the serial offender".
Full disclosure, Jennifer happens to be my wife. She's a hard working, dedicated middle school math teacher and also teaches a GED night course after school and needs to actually, you know,
sleep at night and get up early in the morning, which is not easily achievable when several nights of the week extremely loud music and window rattling bass had started to emanate from one particular newly opened nightclub next door and was audible INSIDE our home. That said, I don't think any noise complaints have been called in for at least a year or so since the club owner, being a good neighbor (and probably being sick of the complaints) installed sound proofing inside the club so that now, although it's not 100% inaudible, it has greatly decreased the volume spilling outside (and into our own home) thus solving the problem.
We don't hold a personal grudge against this particular club or it's owner, or bars or nightclubs in general--there were several others already around when we purchased our home in 2008 and we understand living in an urban area you're going to get some street noise, but come on, people gotta sleep--lack of sleep will literally make you crazy. Or do you
really think this is some kind of arrogant anti-business assumption of working class privilege that one shouldn't
have to listen to bass heavy dance music when one is
not actually dancing at the club next door but trying to get some sleep in
one's own home at 2 in the morning?!?
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on September 18, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 16, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
Jennifer Maydachek the serial complainer for King Street who is sitting on the Commission has just arrived.
Ok, I gotta jump in here Stephen--not that this has anything to do with the parking issue, but I don't think "the serial complainer" is a fair label for this committee member unless you are also ok describing the particular nightclub in question that had the noise complaints called in as "the serial offender".
Full disclosure, Jennifer happens to be my wife. She's a hard working, dedicated middle school math teacher and also teaches a GED night course after school and needs to actually, you know, sleep at night and get up early in the morning, which is not easily achievable when several nights of the week extremely loud music and window rattling bass had started to emanate from one particular newly opened nightclub next door and was audible INSIDE our home. That said, I don't think any noise complaints have been called in for at least a year or so since the club owner, being a good neighbor (and probably being sick of the complaints) installed sound proofing inside the club so that now, although it's not 100% inaudible, it has greatly decreased the volume spilling outside (and into our own home) thus solving the problem.
We don't hold a personal grudge against this particular club or it's owner, or bars or nightclubs in general--there were several others already around when we purchased our home in 2008 and we understand living in an urban area you're going to get some street noise, but come on, people gotta sleep--lack of sleep will literally make you crazy. Or do you really think this is some kind of arrogant anti-business assumption of working class privilege that one shouldn't have to listen to bass heavy dance music when one is not actually dancing at the club next door but trying to get some sleep in one's own home at 2 in the morning?!?
+100,000
^ well said....an appropriate balance for this mixed-use neighborhood should be maintained
Ok, so to make an analogy, an industrial factory spewing out toxic pollution into the air is A-OK, and nearby citizens should simply bow down and accept it, take "personal responsibility" and plan on wearing gas masks, radiation suits, and/or ear plugs at all times henceforth and be sure to staple plastic tarps onto all their windows to avoid having to breathe in said toxic spewage at home? No need to mention corporate responsibility, right? Maybe I'm just an unreformed tree hugging liberal hippie, but shouldn't the onus be on the business owner to do everything in their power to NOT emit toxic chemicals, nuclear waste, noise, music, etc. into the public sphere in the first place?
I admit my wife and I perhaps didn't handle the whole noise situation in the most friendly-neighbor kind of way, but like I said, lack of sleep and/or loud music can make one a bit crazy--hell, this very same technique is used at Guantanamo Bay to torture and then interrogate prisoners of war:
http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2008/12/15/a-history-of-music-torture-in-the-war-on-terror/ (http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2008/12/15/a-history-of-music-torture-in-the-war-on-terror/)
Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue but "live and let live" is a two way street my friend.
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on September 18, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 16, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
Jennifer Maydachek the serial complainer for King Street who is sitting on the Commission has just arrived.
Ok, I gotta jump in here Stephen--not that this has anything to do with the parking issue, but I don't think "the serial complainer" is a fair label for this committee member unless you are also ok describing the particular nightclub in question that had the noise complaints called in as "the serial offender".
Full disclosure, Jennifer happens to be my wife. She's a hard working, dedicated middle school math teacher and also teaches a GED night course after school and needs to actually, you know, sleep at night and get up early in the morning, which is not easily achievable when several nights of the week extremely loud music and window rattling bass had started to emanate from one particular newly opened nightclub next door and was audible INSIDE our home. That said, I don't think any noise complaints have been called in for at least a year or so since the club owner, being a good neighbor (and probably being sick of the complaints) installed sound proofing inside the club so that now, although it's not 100% inaudible, it has greatly decreased the volume spilling outside (and into our own home) thus solving the problem.
We don't hold a personal grudge against this particular club or it's owner, or bars or nightclubs in general--there were several others already around when we purchased our home in 2008 and we understand living in an urban area you're going to get some street noise, but come on, people gotta sleep--lack of sleep will literally make you crazy. Or do you really think this is some kind of arrogant anti-business assumption of working class privilege that one shouldn't have to listen to bass heavy dance music when one is not actually dancing at the club next door but trying to get some sleep in one's own home at 2 in the morning?!?
So your responsible for killing the back patio between rogue and loft huh? Thanks for that, I HATED having a neat place to drink outside. The part im confused about is that I dont remember there being any music on the outside area ... I could be wrong about that, it's been closed for so long now but seems like even if there were speakers out there, the far better solution would have been to just take those down and allow the use of the patio.
You chose to live behind a business ... probably should have thought through what that would have entailed.
What everyone needs to understand is that The Loft needed a City exception to have a bar serving full alcohol. So the City, including the Planning Dept. and approved by the Planning Commission, set conditions for the exception. One of those conditions is that the bar owner is not allowed to have any activity of any kind behind the building. He only is allowed to use that space for employee parking. This condition was imposed before the place even opened.
So the patio, if there was one, was illegal, according to the City. Let's at least discuss this with the facts. Blaming the resident is way off the mark.
Stephen: Seriously, it helps everyone when you can be factual. We've had this discussion previously and you refuse to accept the facts. The planners within the Planning Dept. recommended the no activity in the rear because of how close businesses are to residents. PD denied Kickbacks a patio in the rear of their building when they made an earlier request. PD has never approved outside patios in the rear of buildings in our neighborhood. If everyone respected the rules and the law, we'd all be better off.
Quote from: Kay on September 23, 2013, 09:26:26 PM
What everyone needs to understand is that The Loft needed a City exception to have a bar serving full alcohol. So the City, including the Planning Dept. and approved by the Planning Commission, set conditions for the exception. One of those conditions is that the bar owner is not allowed to have any activity of any kind behind the building. He only is allowed to use that space for employee parking. This condition was imposed before the place even opened.
So the patio, if there was one, was illegal, according to the City. Let's at least discuss this with the facts. Blaming the resident is way off the mark.
Did RAP have any role in recommending the conditions of the exception to the Planning Department?
The planning dept. made their recommendation and RAP then found out about the application and the recommendation. Did RAP support PD's recommendation? Yes. When residences exist across a small alley from bars (where the sides of houses, not the backs of properties face the alley), it is an incompatible use to have an outside patio.
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 11:28:25 AM
The planning dept. made their recommendation and RAP then found out about the application and the recommendation. Did RAP support PD's recommendation? Yes. When residences exist across a small alley from bars (where the sides of houses, not the backs of properties face the alley), it is an incompatible use to have an outside patio.
I remember the good ole days when RAP was concerned with architectural preservation. I miss those days. RAP has no business chiming in on planning matters.
I have not lived here that long so I might be talking out of my a-- but I am getting the impression that RAP is very full of itself and is starting to think it runs things with little if any accountability to the residents. Are the member sof RAP elected, appointed or just the people who are willing to serve? I'd certainly like to see some of the things which Stephen Dare has mentioned put into motion or at least discussed. A lot of my neighbors just roll their eyes when I mention RAP and mumble "it used to be a good organization but now etc etc etc."
Quote from: Slackiinoff on September 23, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
You chose to live behind a business ... probably should have thought through what that would have entailed.
Slackiinoff, sorry that you were
so inconvenienced in your choice of outside drinking options, but Riverside and Avondale are actual, you know,
neighborhoods, not merely the "entertainment district" for you and the rest of Jacksonville. There's a flipside to every opinion--your last comment could always be rewritten as:
You chose to
live open a night club behind
a business residential homes... probably should have thought through what
that would have entailed.
Personally, the back patio was never the main issue for me--we've never had any problems with the patio next door at Park Place, which actually WAS in business when we bought our home; the wall shaking bass coming from the INSIDE of the new club was, and a continually opening back door simply exacerbated the noise issue. If the original business permit didn't allow the patio in the first place since it's located next to private residences, take it up with the business owner or the COJ.
And no, I'm not some anti-business crusader, though unlike former male human presidential unit Mitt Romney, I do not believe that "corporations are people, my friend". I've got a pretty laissez-faire attitude about things, so as long as I don't have to hear noise coming from you, your Aunt Grizelda, or my next door neighbor at 2 am, I'm not gonna call and complain just to complain.
As far as RAP, I see them as simply giving regular Joe "non-corporations" like my wife and I a voice in neighborhood issues such as this, which is a positive thing in my opinion.
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on September 24, 2013, 02:34:10 PM
As far as RAP, I see them as simply giving regular Joe "non-corporations" like my wife and I a voice in neighborhood issues such as this, which is a positive thing in my opinion.
Yep. Someone needs to balance the extraordinary economic power and political might of "corporations" like Alpha Dog.
I sleep better at night knowing Dahlia's Pour House won't steal my first born child.
Quote from: MEGATRON on September 24, 2013, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 11:28:25 AM
The planning dept. made their recommendation and RAP then found out about the application and the recommendation. Did RAP support PD's recommendation? Yes. When residences exist across a small alley from bars (where the sides of houses, not the backs of properties face the alley), it is an incompatible use to have an outside patio.
I remember the good ole days when RAP was concerned with architectural preservation. I miss those days. RAP has no business chiming in on planning matters.
Perhaps you don't go far enough back. The neighborhood originally galvanized over the City's idea to put a highway through the neighborhood. Check out the RAP's history video on the web site. RAP has always been involved in zoning and planning issues.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
I sleep better at night knowing Dahlia's Pour House won't steal my first born child.
Hey tough guy: Maybe you could trade houses with some of these folks who live right next to the bars and they could enjoy your bar-free abode in Fairfax.
I think there needs to be some way of having accounability for RAP. If we get a jerk or an incompetent on the City Council we can always vote them out. Is RAP really that influential? This was always happening in Chicago with neighborhoods changing and then neighbors fighting about patios , courtyards ...parking etc etc..It would be nice if there could be some sort of impartial mediation board..RAP certainly doesn't sound impartial. Who gave them this power..? Its kind of nice to have places like Dahlias's Pour House and the Loft .Park Place and the bar across the place open...Its what makes a city a city.
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
I sleep better at night knowing Dahlia's Pour House won't steal my first born child.
Hey tough guy: Maybe you could trade houses with some of these folks who live right next to the bars and they could enjoy your bar-free abode in Fairfax.
Maybe I can just move back into my house behind the Shoppes of Avondale instead of renting it to those hooligans that pee on trees?
You forget that I got mugged and robbed by gunpoint walking back from Art Bar to my house on Riverside Ave 8 years ago. Back then, King Street wasn't exactly the place to be past 8pm. I have no fear walking around at night now b/c of all the brave business people who sunk their life savings into turning the area around.
Imagine what you would feel like if someone threatened the entire accumulation of your life's hard work because they didnt like your porch? It's easy to throw stones when your money isn't on the line, tough girl ;)
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 04:46:51 PM
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
I sleep better at night knowing Dahlia's Pour House won't steal my first born child.
Hey tough guy: Maybe you could trade houses with some of these folks who live right next to the bars and they could enjoy your bar-free abode in Fairfax.
Maybe I can just move back into my house behind the Shoppes of Avondale instead of renting it to hooligans that pee on trees?
Bar-free Fairfax? Sounds like Mike has the right idea for folks who don't want to live next to a commercial district that's been there for decades.
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 04:28:07 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on September 24, 2013, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 11:28:25 AM
The planning dept. made their recommendation and RAP then found out about the application and the recommendation. Did RAP support PD's recommendation? Yes. When residences exist across a small alley from bars (where the sides of houses, not the backs of properties face the alley), it is an incompatible use to have an outside patio.
I remember the good ole days when RAP was concerned with architectural preservation. I miss those days. RAP has no business chiming in on planning matters.
Perhaps you don't go far enough back. The neighborhood originally galvanized over the City's idea to put a highway through the neighborhood. Check out the RAP's history video on the web site. RAP has always been involved in zoning and planning issues.
Are you really trying to compare opposition to a highway through Avondale/Riverside to the work RAP is endeavoring now?
Quote from: Tacachale on September 24, 2013, 04:49:11 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 04:46:51 PM
Quote from: Kay on September 24, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2013, 03:38:06 PM
I sleep better at night knowing Dahlia's Pour House won't steal my first born child.
Hey tough guy: Maybe you could trade houses with some of these folks who live right next to the bars and they could enjoy your bar-free abode in Fairfax.
Maybe I can just move back into my house behind the Shoppes of Avondale instead of renting it to hooligans that pee on trees?
Bar-free Fairfax? Sounds like Mike has the right idea for folks who don't want to live next to a commercial district that's been there for decades.
Hahahaha.... I see what you did there..... +6.875 ;D
Quote from: simonsays on September 24, 2013, 03:26:46 PM
Yep. Someone needs to balance the extraordinary economic power and political might of "corporations" like Alpha Dog.
Well as long as we're engaging in hyperbole:
Of course Alpha Dog closed down because of the nefarious plans of the all-powerful Riverside Avondale Preservation branch of the anti-business Illuminati.
RAP also
mercilessly took down Vienna Garden, Jackson's Grill, Deco Bistro, Domo Crepes, Whalebone Grill, Two Sisters Cafe, International Grill, Al Hilm, and all the other businesses that have opened and closed in the area over the past two decades simply because RAP
didn't like the cut of their jib.
And since I'm spilling the beans, my internet research also proves without a doubt that Riverside Avondale Preservation is also responsible for faking the 1969 moon landing in the gymnasium of Nathan Bedford Forrest High School...several years
before RAP was even officially formed!
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on September 24, 2013, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: simonsays on September 24, 2013, 03:26:46 PM
Yep. Someone needs to balance the extraordinary economic power and political might of "corporations" like Alpha Dog.
Well as long as we're engaging in hyperbole:
Of course Alpha Dog closed down because of the nefarious plans of the all-powerful Riverside Avondale Preservation branch of the anti-business Illuminati.
RAP also mercilessly took down Vienna Garden, Jackson's Grill, Deco Bistro, Domo Crepes, Whalebone Grill, Two Sisters Cafe, International Grill, Al Hilm, and all the other businesses that have opened and closed in the area over the past two decades simply because RAP didn't like the cut of their jib.
And since I'm spilling the beans, my internet research also proves without a doubt that Riverside Avondale Preservation is also responsible for faking the 1969 moon landing in the gymnasium of Nathan Bedford Forrest High School...several years before RAP was even officially formed!
Actually RAP didn't oppose any of those businesses zoning applications and/or call code compliance like Dahlias or Alpha Dog. So you are comparing apples to oranges.
Well it is curious that Biscotti's and Casbah's efforts to pass a J Bill allowing them to serve liquor with less than 150 seats isn't being openly opposed?
What's up with that Casbah Biscotti's deal? That surely is an intensification of use - the kind of thing that gets Donahoo and Anderson's panties in a wad?
*crickets*
So hypocritical it make me sick.
Quote from: zedsdead on September 26, 2013, 10:08:03 AM
What's up with that Casbah Biscotti's deal? That surely is an intensification of use - the kind of thing that gets Donahoo and Anderson's panties in a wad?
*crickets*
So hypocritical it make me sick.
Who will save the citrus trees!! ::)
Kay, does RAP have a position on the Biscottis J Bill?
Don't know if RAP has an official position--you'd have to ask Carmen. RAP is not in opposition though. Some board members also are talking about doing something similar for all the commercial districts like the 5 Points area where you only have to have 100 seats to serve liquor.
WOW....RAP wants to help the business community and make the area nicer for residents ? Is the world coming to an end? Now I really am worried about the citrus trees !
Folks on this site who denigrate RAP mostly don't listen well or don't understand the nuances of situations. They definitely are not on the inside; some don't even live in the neighborhood. So take what they say with a grain of salt.
I live in the neighborhood and most of my neighbors do not have much good to say about RAP. They complain that it has overstepped its boundaries with little if any accountability. I am new to the area so I am for the most part neutral
Quote from: Kay on September 30, 2013, 08:50:30 AM
Folks on this site who denigrate RAP mostly don't listen well or don't understand the nuances of situations. They definitely are not on the inside; some don't even live in the neighborhood. So take what they say with a grain of salt.
I live in the neighborhood, work in the neighborhood, and employ several other people who also work and live in the neighborhood. Hopefully I'm thus qualified to have an opinion. With that out of the way...
Let's clarify on the biscottis and casbah issues: So RAP is just fine supporting an intensified use to allow the service of alcohol near a residential neighborhood, and god knows how many precious orange trees, one of which even has the outdoor seating RAP so strenuously opposed for another restaurant across the street, at least so long as it's RAP members doing it? Just not if it's kickbacks, mellow mushroom, etc.?
Explain the difference. Seems a bald-faced contradiction.
It sure does look funny if what you say is true....are RAP members elected? What is the level of accountability?
Quote from: Kay on September 30, 2013, 08:50:30 AM
Folks on this site who denigrate RAP mostly don't listen well or don't understand the nuances of situations. They definitely are not on the inside; some don't even live in the neighborhood. So take what they say with a grain of salt.
"some don't even live in the neighborhood." You don't have to live in the Avondale Neighborhood to have a opinion on anything in Jacksonville. RAP isn't the blessing you believe it to be? It's best if people take what you say with a gain of salt Kay! I remember when RAP put it's two cents into the Riviera Parkway Apartments several years ago. The owner of the apartments wanted to remove all of the buildings. And RAP said it was OK because none of the buildings were really old? But the older apartments on Riviera Parkway have been around for a long time. But RAP said no the buildings on Riviera Parkway were not worth saving? Now this development never went through Thank God. But RAP and a lot of it's stuck up friends want Avondale to be the quiet little haven it once was, well to bad! :'(
Would someone please answer my question? To whom are the members of RAP accountable, how are they chosen and how much power to they actually have ?
Quote from: Stephen on September 30, 2013, 11:33:48 AM
Would someone please answer my question? To whom are the members of RAP accountable, how are they chosen and how much power to they actually have ?
Anyone can become a regular member of RAP. RAP's board has a nominating committee that recommends the board of director slate. We advertise for folks interested in becoming board members and interested in supporting RAP's mission and vision as laid out in its strategic plan. The nominating committee is made up of a few board members and a few community members. They go through an interview process and the nominating committee recommends new board members to the membership at its annual meeting. The membership then votes on the new board slate.
The City of Jacksonville through the Jacksonville Historic Planning Commission, the Planning Dept., Planning Commission and Council's Land Use and Zoning Committee vote on projects/issues that come before them applying either the preservance ordiance or the overlay ordinance. RAP is a neighborhood organization that advocates for the neighborhood just like any lone citizen can do.
Thats what I'm thinking StephenDare.....Maybe somebody with some guts should start a Riverside/Avondale Business Committee to speak up for the businesses in the community. RAP really sounds to me as if it has gotten very full of itself.
Tell me one non-profit organization who brings on board members who pledge NOT to support its mission and vision?
There currently are 3 merchant associations in the historic district.
There you go again Stephen. Read the strategic plan which includes vision and mission. Wonder of wonders it even discusses supporting merchants and the commerical districts. And hey, guess what? The development of the strategic plan included community survey input and focus groups, including focus groups with merchants.
RAP works with the merchant associations as evidenced by our partnership with the 5 Points merchants on the walkability project in 5 Points.
The blatant anti-RAP biases on this board is why I don't typically post. One cannot have a rationale conversation.
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 30, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Really want to hear Kay's answer to this question. Its the type of rational question she does not believe exists on this board.
I think the more bars the better...Lets become a real city not some swampy country backwater
Quote from: Stephen on September 30, 2013, 12:50:12 PM
I think the more bars the better...Lets become a real city not some swampy country backwater
Do you see Jacksonville as a swampy country backwater town?
The only good justification they could have for support of intensification of use is that it relates to existing structures. An intensification of use for Casbah or Biscottis is not going to magically result in a tumultuous wave of new patrons. It simply changes what they can serve.
If anything, the intensification, if applied to a broader area than just those two establishments, would a nice break from the rather puritanical standards of the City's past. Of course, I'm saying this as someone who keenly remembers having to drive to St. Johns County with friends and family to purchase alcohol on Sundays.
Also, as much as I miss the back patio at Loft, there is a big difference between the outdoor seating at Casbah or the Brick which faces the commercial street area and a rear patio that adjoins residential property. Its just a shame a time period of use or noise control could not have resulted in a compromise.
Quote from: Stephen on September 30, 2013, 11:58:59 AM
Thats what I'm thinking StephenDare.....Maybe somebody with some guts should start a Riverside/Avondale Business Committee to speak up for the businesses in the community. RAP really sounds to me as if it has gotten very full of itself.
(gotten very full of itself.) RAP has always been this way! :o
The Casbah could be a great place as is Biscotti's...Too bad Mellow Mushroom did not have their connections?
Quote from: Kay on September 30, 2013, 12:20:42 PM
There you go again Stephen. Read the strategic plan which includes vision and mission. Wonder of wonders it even discusses supporting merchants and the commerical districts. And hey, guess what? The development of the strategic plan included community survey input and focus groups, including focus groups with merchants.
RAP works with the merchant associations as evidenced by our partnership with the 5 Points merchants on the walkability project in 5 Points.
The blatant anti-RAP biases on this board is why I don't typically post. One cannot have a rationale conversation.
I don't know that you could call it bias, really.
I'm just asking this; What's the difference between mellow mushroom serving alcohol with outdoor seating, and biscottis and the casbah serving alcohol with outdoor seating? We heard for months how the former = death to the neighborhood, but now you've just stated that RAP has decided not to treat two restaurants (owned by RAP members) in the same area the same way when they want to do the same thing. I'm curious as to hear the basis for this blatant contradiction.
You've failed to answer the question, by the way.
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
I know one of them (biscottis) was a driving force behind the WeLoveAvondale group. Unless I'm missing something, that smacks of blatant hypocrisy. I hope I'm missing something, right?
Quote from: fieldafm on September 30, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Jabbing aside, this is the question of the hour.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
Chair:Jonathan Oliff
Vice Chair-Community Improvement: Kevin Kuzel
Vice Chair-Development: Cathleen Murphy
Vice Chair-Historic Preservation: Kay Ehas
Vice Chair-Membership: Malcolm Jones
Vice Chair-RAM Advisory: Sunny Gettinger
Secretary: Lisa Sheppard
Treasurer: Keith Holt
Mike Barker
Jeff Conley
Steve Congro
Allan Devault
Iris Eisenberg
Michelle Michael
Dylan Phillips
Joy Walker
Stephanie Welchans
Wayne Wood (Founder)
Marlo Zarka
No. The neither restaurant owner is on the BoD.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2013, 05:19:28 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
I know one of them (biscottis) was a driving force behind the WeLoveAvondale group. Unless I'm missing something, that smacks of blatant hypocrisy. I hope I'm missing something, right?
I did not know that and as someone who really likes and frequents Biscotti's it upsets me as things were made so ugly for Mellow Mushroom. I like others do not see the difference between outside service at MM and what has been going on at the Brick for instance that has been serving both food and liquor outside since they opened. There is plenty of prosperity to go around in Avondale and Jacksonville and I can't understand that what is good for one establishment is not acceptable in another. It does appear that there is a difference in standards and how they are applied. I too would like to hear the answer to your question.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 30, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
Chair:Jonathan Oliff
Vice Chair-Community Improvement: Kevin Kuzel
Vice Chair-Development: Cathleen Murphy
Vice Chair-Historic Preservation: Kay Ehas
Vice Chair-Membership: Malcolm Jones
Vice Chair-RAM Advisory: Sunny Gettinger
Secretary: Lisa Sheppard
Treasurer: Keith Holt
Mike Barker
Jeff Conley
Steve Congro
Allan Devault
Iris Eisenberg
Michelle Michael
Dylan Phillips
Joy Walker
Stephanie Welchans
Wayne Wood (Founder)
Marlo Zarka
No. The neither restaurant owner is on the BoD.
It should be of greater concern to everyone that 3 of the RAP board officers are City Employees.
Kay Ehas is the Chief Administrative Officer for the Duval County Property Appraiser, Kevin Kuzel is Councilman Jim Love's Executive Assistant and Lisa Sheppard is a Senior Historic Planner with the City of Jacksonville.
Quote from: Apache on September 30, 2013, 05:58:08 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2013, 05:19:28 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
I know one of them (biscottis) was a driving force behind the WeLoveAvondale group. Unless I'm missing something, that smacks of blatant hypocrisy. I hope I'm missing something, right?
Whats your definition of "driving force"? Not being argumentative. I do recall seeing Biscotti's owners names attached to the issue from time to time, but to me, they didn't seem like they were a driving force behind WLA. Plus, I think they are smart enough to know that Mellow was going to happen and thus didn't over do it, that I noticed. I don't want Cheshire Cat boycotting the biscuit for no reason
Oh I won't boycott Biscotti's. I enjoy the restaurant too much and have for years. I am just thinking about the reality that a vibrant Avondale center is far superior to one filled with empty storefronts. I remember times when this was the case and the reality to me at least is that more restaurants is a good thing and into that I weigh the reality that many of the shops will be closed when evening patrons arrive.
I feel that every potential business should be treated fairly and do feel that the owner of MM was given quite the run around and bent over backwards to meet the demands put to him. I think the whole "We Love Avondale" thing wasn't needed and a bit much. Of course there was the orange tree issue. ::)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 30, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
Chair:Jonathan Oliff
Vice Chair-Community Improvement: Kevin Kuzel
Vice Chair-Development: Cathleen Murphy
Vice Chair-Historic Preservation: Kay Ehas
Vice Chair-Membership: Malcolm Jones
Vice Chair-RAM Advisory: Sunny Gettinger
Secretary: Lisa Sheppard
Treasurer: Keith Holt
Mike Barker
Jeff Conley
Steve Congro
Allan Devault
Iris Eisenberg
Michelle Michael
Dylan Phillips
Joy Walker
Stephanie Welchans
Wayne Wood (Founder)
Marlo Zarka
No. The neither restaurant owner is on the BoD.
Are you saying neither are members of RAP?
Quote from: Apache on September 30, 2013, 05:58:08 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2013, 05:19:28 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
I know one of them (biscottis) was a driving force behind the WeLoveAvondale group. Unless I'm missing something, that smacks of blatant hypocrisy. I hope I'm missing something, right?
Whats your definition of "driving force"? Not being argumentative. I do recall seeing Biscotti's owners names attached to the issue from time to time, but to me, they didn't seem like they were a driving force behind WLA. Plus, I think they are smart enough to know that Mellow was going to happen and thus didn't over do it, that I noticed. I don't want Cheshire Cat boycotting the biscuit for no reason
Someone who repeatedly and strenuously spoke out in public on behalf of WLA.
I mean, what would you prefer I call that?
Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on September 30, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
It should be of greater concern to everyone that 3 of the RAP board officers are City Employees.
Kay Ehas is the Chief Administrative Officer for the Duval County Property Appraiser, Kevin Kuzel is Councilman Jim Love's Executive Assistant and Lisa Sheppard is a Senior Historic Planner with the City of Jacksonville.
why? Perhaps they are public employees that care deeply about their community.
Any chance of post and college streets could return to one way to make things not so tight around there?...there are some real assholes out there.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 30, 2013, 10:19:42 PM
Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on September 30, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
It should be of greater concern to everyone that 3 of the RAP board officers are City Employees.
Kay Ehas is the Chief Administrative Officer for the Duval County Property Appraiser, Kevin Kuzel is Councilman Jim Love's Executive Assistant and Lisa Sheppard is a Senior Historic Planner with the City of Jacksonville.
why? Perhaps they are public employees that care deeply about their community.
A RAP board member being an employee of the planning department is a serious onlict of interest IMO
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 30, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 30, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 30, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Chris, just curious. Are the restaurant owners just members of RAP or on the board of RAP?
Chair:Jonathan Oliff
Vice Chair-Community Improvement: Kevin Kuzel
Vice Chair-Development: Cathleen Murphy
Vice Chair-Historic Preservation: Kay Ehas
Vice Chair-Membership: Malcolm Jones
Vice Chair-RAM Advisory: Sunny Gettinger
Secretary: Lisa Sheppard
Treasurer: Keith Holt
Mike Barker
Jeff Conley
Steve Congro
Allan Devault
Iris Eisenberg
Michelle Michael
Dylan Phillips
Joy Walker
Stephanie Welchans
Wayne Wood (Founder)
Marlo Zarka
No. The neither restaurant owner is on the BoD.
Are you saying neither are members of RAP?
Just the Board. Biscottis is a Small Business Partner, Casbah is not.
The requirements to be an actual RAP 'member', uh, pay the yearly fee. So anyone can be a member, attend meetings and such, but to answer you question, probably, but there's no list to actually find out.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 30, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 30, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Jabbing aside, this is the question of the hour.
Still no answer on the question of the day?
Allan DeVault, who is on the Board of RAP, is the managing partner of Blacksheep and Chair of the 5 Points Merchants Association.
Quote from: Dog Walker on October 01, 2013, 11:04:28 AM
Allan DeVault, who is on the Board of RAP, is the managing partner of Blacksheep and Chair of the 5 Points Merchants Association.
Well, yes.
Didn't he get to build his building serving alcohol and with outdoor seating?
I note that Kay still hasn't answered the question everyone is asking of her: Why does RAP take one position with one set of folks, and a completely contradictory position with another set, over the same issues in the same area? Other than the fact that the latter are RAP members and the former weren't, what's the difference?
Or is that kind of thing just supposed to be considered acceptable?
StephenDare...do you have any idea why Kay hasn't answered that question?
Kay should not be speaking for RAP, Carmen is quite intelligent and can speak on behalf of RAP, she is the director.
QuoteI am just thinking about the reality that a vibrant Avondale center is far superior to one filled with empty storefronts. I remember times when this was the case and the reality to me at least is that more restaurants is a good thing and into that I weigh the reality that many of the shops will be closed when evening patrons arrive.
+1000
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:42:57 AM
QuoteI am just thinking about the reality that a vibrant Avondale center is far superior to one filled with empty storefronts. I remember times when this was the case and the reality to me at least is that more restaurants is a good thing and into that I weigh the reality that many of the shops will be closed when evening patrons arrive.
+1000
+1
Bump for Kay
I wouldn't hold my breath for Kay to answer this one.
Has MetroJacksonville as a news organization asked RAP the question we all are asking so that it
can be on record?
Maybe there is more to it than double standards and we just don't have the information?
Quote from: Gators312 on October 09, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath for Kay to answer this one.
Has MetroJacksonville as a news organization asked RAP the question we all are asking so that it
can be on record?
Maybe there is more to it than double standards and we just don't have the information?
Which specific question is that?
Quote from: stephendare on October 09, 2013, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: Gators312 on October 09, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath for Kay to answer this one.
Has MetroJacksonville as a news organization asked RAP the question we all are asking so that it
can be on record?
well we regard them as kind of part of our news community, to be honest. And we do a lot of dialogue. In any case, simply demanding that someone answer a question doesnt guaranty that they have to answer it, especially if they are a private organization, which RAP is.
Thats why you get so many 'declined to comment' or 'no comment's.
However here on the forums their silence is deafening, obviously.
This:
Quote from: fieldafm on September 30, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 09, 2013, 03:23:04 PM
Which specific question is that?
Pretty sure this one: (in bold)
Quote from: Gators312 on October 01, 2013, 09:57:50 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 30, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on September 30, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
QuoteOne cannot have a rationale conversation.
Why is supporting a J-Bill that promotes the 'intensification of use' of what could be maybe 4-5 dozens of commercial structures ok? Doesn't that kind of go against the whole 'moratorium on bars and restaurants' philosophy- which is grounded in 'intensification' concerns?
That's an honest question.
Jabbing aside, this is the question of the hour.
Still no answer on the question of the day?
Well folks, I just removed a post I had put up generally defending RAP and Kay Ehas. Someones not happy about being questioned or about opposing views and has stated as much to me. Now I see more clearly why RAP is seen to be headed down a road that has some questioning their aims and whether or not their opinions are meted out fairly. Some recent dealings appear to say that all is not fair depending upon who knows who. We have an organization that may have moved beyond serving the community with care and balance as well showing respect for the views of all citizens in the community. Recent attitudes and groups born of RAP members like WLA are creating divisiveness and this is not a good thing for Avondale. I was mistaken to think there was balance in the mix here. It appears to be lacking I continue to see and it may well be time for the RAP leadership to make sure that whoever on their board that speaks with "authority" to RAP issues is the authorized spokesperson. Kay Ehas does not speak for RAP, but for herself and right now "herself" is furious at having anyone question RAP, their involvement in the St. Johns project or the mention of Wayne Wood or his connection to RAP. She feels the newspaper was stupid to say Wayne Wood is the founder of RAP. He does not speak for them anymore. Okay, the history of him being the founder of an agency to moderate what happens in Riverside/Avondale has nothing to do with his attempts to scuttle the St. John's project. The reality is that Mr. Wood is a person whose past history with RAP as it's founder is in fact very much a factor when he is voicing an opinion against a development with RAP right on his heels. It is what it is.
As another poster stated earlier Carmen Godwin speaks publicly for RAP.
Johnathan Oliff, the board chair
Kay Ehas is a "vice" chair.
You can get more info and contact them via this link:
http://www.riversideavondale.org/
Now this is interesting to me considering Kay's stance that Wayne Woods connection to RAP means nothing in the issue of the St. Johns development and that the newspaper was stupid to say as much. Well don't ya know that Mr. Wood himself has used the news article on his FB page that points him out as the found of RAP. Gosh, one would think that if Wayne had a problem with him being associated to the RAP organization or being identified as the founder of the self same organization he would not have used this piece on his own FB page.
Quote
Fishweir Creek development scaled down, but RAP founder still says it's 'monstrous
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-10-08/story/fishweir-creek-development-scaled-down-rap-founder-still-says-its#ixzz2hGXlmKZ1Quote
QuoteSomeones not happy about being questioned or about opposing views and has stated as much to me.
Someone is generally not happy with what is being posted on MJ, and its OK, as far as I am concerned to STIR the pot. :o After all, if we wanted to sing Kumbaya, we would never have an original thought, we'd just recycle those from Stephen. 8)
I see Dr. Wood and Kay all around town and at many events. The fact that Kay is probably seen more frequently leading events or participating in city related events, makes her more of a candidate to speak on RAP related issues. I would like to see her more at the RAM events where RAP has its booth, but its a choice. She is passionate, and I respect her views.
Dr. Wood is equally passionate, and I see him around the area, but I really doubt many new people to Riverside Avondale really know who he is. Yeah he founded RAP and brought RAM to under the Fuller Warren Bridge, yeah, yeah, and he is a passionate pioneer, but then so is Tommy Donahoo who founded WLA and decided to upset everyone's apple cart in and around the shops of Avondale.
Like the sides or not, I am happier to live in an area where people question the spaghetti that gets thrown against the wall for stickiness. I know our community is a better place when we pull together as neighbors and work to resolve our issues rather than taking it "you know where" from city hall.
Diane - I appreciate your views and your passion as well. Keep 'em coming! - Jack
... if you don't stir the pot, your bottom will get burned.