JTA Skyway Expansion Loses: 2013 TIGER Grant Awards
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2678430923_qmnTWss-M.jpg)
U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx recently announced 52 transportation projects across the country will receive a total of $474 million from the U.S. Department of Transportation's (DOT) Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) 2013 discretionary grant program. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority's (JTA) application for funding to extend the Skyway to Brooklyn was not among them. While it's back to the drawing board for JTA and Jacksonville, here is a look at where the award money is actually going.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-sep-jta-skyway-expansion-loses-2013-tiger-grant-awards (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-sep-jta-skyway-expansion-loses-2013-tiger-grant-awards)
So basically TIGER money was awarded to generally useful or economically beneficial projects. I'm shocked!
JTA is a f*****g joke. In fact, given that hardly anyone uses JTA's pathetic transit, the city could save money by having NO transit at all rather than continuing to fund this useless organization. And no I'm not mad we didn't get awarded, I was against the project the whole time and never thought we would be awarded. I'm glad our opportunity for TIGER money wasn't wasted on such a worthless project; perhaps someone with a brain and actual knowledge of how transit can serve population and move goods can figure out how to pitch a new/useful project to the feds...how egotistical of locals to even think that what's going on in Brooklyn is enough to warrant $10M federal taxpayer money?? So ~500-1,000 new upwardly mobile young professionals with cars living in way above market rent apartments can have a $20M monorail station to whisk them to a downtown they probably don't even work in? News flash - that isn't even a blip on construction radar and to quote myself from August:
Quote from: simms3 on August 15, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
They are projecting a net increase of 1,250 new daily riders and a net decrease of 208,321 daily vehicle miles in the urban core. Assuming these 1,250 new riders are riding in and riding out, that 625 new people. Are we to seriously believe that these 625 new people are driving 333 miles each in the core each day??? How do they calculate these numbers? See bottom of page 1 of the proposal.
This city throws tennis balls against a wall year in and year out and keeps its fingers crossed that one year there will be a large crack in the wall where the ball might stick, accidentally. It hasn't figured out that it needs a nerf gun, decent aim, and appropriate distance, preferably closer to the wall.
Though I will say I think it's a waste of federal funds to convert diesel busses to electric (IndyGo in Indianapolis). They must have made a nice pitch. JTA's project wasn't good, but having read their pitch on this site as well, I thought it was pretty bad. I'm very pro-transit and pro-infrastructure funding. It's probably more difficult to convince me not to spend money on this type of stuff, and somehow after reading JTA's pitch I came away with too many questions and thought it sounded wasteful/disingenuous/potentially fishy. Not surprised the feds felt the same way.
KCMO got $20M for their starter streetcar.
Bummer. I was hoping they would get the grant, and would like to see them do the expansion regardless.
JTA and the other "powers that be" are WRONG to keep pushing this boondoggle.
The Transportation Element of the Comprehensive Plan REQUIRES substantial growth in the Riverside area for this leg of the Skyway to be considered and a few apartments built in the area and only a small resurgence does not qualify as substantial. The Feds know that and so does the State YET JTA wants it anyway.
This is ANOTHER example of the wastefulness pushed upon tax payers JUST LIKE THE TRANSPORTATION CENTER!
Just like the Transportation Center where the Fed's will not give money, the State will not give money but JTA is trying to make local tax payers pony up money WE DO NOT HAVE NOR CAN JTA JUSTIFY forcing us to pay for. GREYHOUND doesnt even want anything to do with it!
This Riverside extension is only a 1/2 mile long and just look at the money JTA wants to spend PLUS JTA has no answers when asked about bringing the Skyway down to grade level.
This idea is more of the "build it and they will come" garbage being shoved down the tax payers throat like the transportation center and jumbotrons, swimming pools and palm trees at the stadium.
Totally agree Sunbeam. Why isn't J-ville applying for federal grant dollars to implement complete streets, return downtown streets to two-way, etc. etc. etc.?
QuoteJTA continues quest to build new Skyway station despite missing out on $10 million federal grant
Plans to build a new Skyway station along Riverside Avenue suffered a setback when the Jacksonville Transportation Authority missed out on winning a $10 million federal grant.
In a decision eagerly awaited by the JTA, the U.S. Department of Transportation announced it would award $474 million to 52 transportation projects across the country for its Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery program, known as TIGER. JTA wasn't among those selected.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-09/story/jta-continues-quest-build-new-skyway-station-despite-missing-out-10#ixzz2eU90lcD7
Quote from: simms3 on September 10, 2013, 04:26:27 AM
So basically TIGER money was awarded to generally useful or economically beneficial projects. I'm shocked!
From what I can tell, it seems the pattern is to spread TIGER grant money around instead of dumping it into the same cities every year, regardless of individual projects. We just got TIGER grant money for a railyard at JAXPORT two years ago.
QuoteJTA is a f*****g joke. In fact, given that hardly anyone uses JTA's pathetic transit, the city could save money by having NO transit at all rather than continuing to fund this useless organization.
The city would be better served financially and economically by getting transit right than abandoning it.
Quote from: Sunbeam on September 10, 2013, 06:24:44 AM
The Transportation Element of the Comprehensive Plan REQUIRES substantial growth in the Riverside area for this leg of the Skyway to be considered and a few apartments built in the area and only a small resurgence does not qualify as substantial. The Feds know that and so does the State YET JTA wants it anyway.
FYI, this is one of the most backwards things I've ever seen. Transportation infrastructure builds the types of communities you want. It doesn't happen the other way around. In fact, it never does. Adding something like that in your comp plan is virtually another way of saying we don't want to really do anything.
Riverside would not look anything like it is today if streetcars were not installed in the area when it was actually rural. SJTC, UNF, Mayo and everything else on the Southside would still be dairy farms and abandoned sand mines if we didn't slice highways through it to open previously unaccessible land up to development. San Marco and Arlington would have never taken off if decisions weren't made to connect their areas to downtown with bridges. Downtown Jax would have never become what it once did if earlier decisions to extend railroads to the area never came to fruition.
When it comes to mass transit, Portland and San Diego would still look like Jax does now if they didn't make decisions 30 years ago to invest in it to build the type of urban environments their community's desired. In the last 20 years, Charlotte has caught and pulled away from us economically because of their willingness to invest in themselves and alternative mobility choices.
With all of that said, when the mobility plan, fee and associated projects were created, the comp plan was modified to include them. Specifically speaking, the streetcar was included as a priority project to help spur walkable development and infill in under utilized areas of the urban core like Brooklyn and LaVilla, while also enhancing mobility between Riverside and Downtown. With the DIA now doing a CRA, I'm pretty sure transportation connectivity will be a major part of it as well.
Quote from: Kay on September 10, 2013, 06:34:34 AM
Totally agree Sunbeam. Why isn't J-ville applying for federal grant dollars to implement complete streets, return downtown streets to two-way, etc. etc. etc.?
We still would have lost. We just got +$10 million in TIGER grant money two years ago. I'm not sure that project has even broken ground yet. Nevertheless, we don't need federal money to implement complete streets or return downtown streets to two-way. These are affordable improvements. The reason they don't get done is because they've never become a local priority, although Councilman Boyer is working hard to change this.
Addition by substraction. This boondoggle would've only added another mile of riderless cars along the Skyway system.
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
Quote from: simms3 on September 10, 2013, 04:26:27 AM
So basically TIGER money was awarded to generally useful or economically beneficial projects. I'm shocked!
JTA is a f*****g joke.
uncalled for simms. The fact is that this project was a viable one, but put together fairly rapidly given that JTA's new leadership team didn't really get into place until late winter.
Quote from: FSBA on September 10, 2013, 08:21:02 AM
Addition by substraction. This boondoggle would've only added another mile of riderless cars along the Skyway system.
riderless cars....like the 4,000 passengers a day who currently use the system?
Thanks Lake for making sense of this thing. It's so easy to be caught up in irrationalness like "JTA sucks, and they didn't apply themselves, that's why they didn't receive the money!!!!" blah blah blah. Nothing's a 'gimme' esp when the Feds are involved with a situation.
Bummer this lost out, but hopefully they'll find a way to make it happen regardless. I'm with Lake, they should go with a cheaper station if need be to get it done. The haters are dead wrong; this is a good project that definitely will improve access around Downtown.
It's interesting that transportation projects are chiefly considered "boondoggles", "pathetic", and "WRONG" only when they're downtown, while spending the same amount or more on new construction rarely draws a second thought.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
I wasn't aware the Skyway was currently turning a profit
Yes, it's a gold mine compared to JTB, the Outer Beltway, 9B, the average neighborhood cul-de-sac or even the subsidization of parking in downtown.
Profits from investing in transportation infrastructure don't come from the fare box and charging tolls. They come from that infrastructure's ability to assist a region's efforts to stimulate economic development, increase tax rolls and enhance the area's quality-of-life. When it comes to mass transit, there's also gains by reducing the amount of mobility subsidies needed to support a growing region. Without transit, you'll spend a lot more by focusing too much on roads.
So, how much money we really want to make off the Skyway and any other form of mobility? It's really up to us. If we were smart, we'd utilize it as an urban infrastructure backbone for high density TOD and infill within 1/4 radius (walking distance) of its path. Our chamber is scheduled to be take a trip up to Charlotte later this month. Someone needs to ask Charlotte's leaders about impact of actually coordinating land use policy with infrastructure investment. It's not a sexy topic but it's a major underlying reason why Charlotte's new LRT line is stimulating urban core infill development and the lack of not applying similar concepts is a major reason why DT Jax struggles.
well damn, well at least JTA is still upbeat about getting it done.
I know a lot of time and effort when in to getting that grant application put together. I thought it looked pretty impressive. I have a feeling it will get built with or without federal help. The cost will probably come down to! :-)
^That's the type of outlook we need to position our community to take advantage of greater economic opportunities. That mindset is a major difference between the haves and the have nots when it comes to cities.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 07:42:35 AM
We still would have lost. We just got +$10 million in TIGER grant money two years ago. I'm not sure that project has even broken ground yet.
1) I see plenty of metros there that have won money once or even more than once in the last few rounds, so I don't think that's necessarily stopping anyone.
2) Well if we haven't even broken ground on the last TIGER grant project that we won, of course the feds won't make the same mistake twice and give Jax money. This is all supposed to be for shovel ready projects that are just waiting for that grant to go! There's a statute with this money, right? I'm sure there's another stipulation that an agency can't apply for money until it's put the prior to work...but the prior went to another agency, not JTA if I recall.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
Now it's hard to take JTA's pitch seriously when the numbers they threw out defy logic in so many ways, and many of their numbers are clearly finger in the wind whole number guesses, but I don't think "no frills" is possible. Of the $19.738mm cost of the project, only $6.4M appears to be for the station itself, and as you pointed out, if the Skyway were to ever be expanded down more length of Riverside, it would need to be elevated, requiring that $990K elevator for ADA compliance, and likely the bulk of costs that make the station more expensive than "no frills". The remainder is for things like Command and Control ($5mm), track ($3.6mm), future vehicle maintenance ($1.2mm), guiderail ($3.3mm), etc. So would an at-grade still require that $5mm Command and Control to align it into the system? That defeats "no frills" right there.
Personally, I'm all for transit. But JTA can't piggyback and talk about TOD with this project when 220 Riverside is already UC and the other apartments are already in the pipeline. The Y is not TOD and the retail project is a strip center meant for going home vehicular traffic given that the bulk of its revenue will come from nat'l pharmacy and a nat'l grocer. Speaking on behalf of the development side since I work for one, I can guarandamntee you that no developer there is banking on a skyway spur and they know that their apartment residents will still rely on cars, with or without the skyway.
Even if JTA were going for TOD, they'd need to do it on a more bang for the buck system. Land use policy and transportation policy are not joined at the hip in any area or in any legal way in Jacksonville. The feds would want to see a comprehensive plan and effort by multiple agencies, and likely a larger plan, like a streetcar or LRT line that goes through a prime blighted area that has been granted TIF status and re-zoned for density/infill with design criteria to make it a walkable area with an affordable housing component. That's what the feds want to see before they throw money at transit. Hasn't JTA learned by now?
Oh, as we're all on the same page...they're too busy building more roads to know or to care.
Quote from: FSBA on September 10, 2013, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
I wasn't aware the Skyway was currently turning a profit
When did the government become a for profit enterprise? Now if you want to talk bang for the buck at least that is a reasonable conversation to have.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 10, 2013, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: FSBA on September 10, 2013, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
I wasn't aware the Skyway was currently turning a profit
When did the government become a for profit enterprise?
It never has been. One reason I'm in favor of privatizing roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPEgIDhj5s
Quote from: simms3 on September 10, 2013, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 07:42:35 AM
We still would have lost. We just got +$10 million in TIGER grant money two years ago. I'm not sure that project has even broken ground yet.
1) I see plenty of metros there that have won money once or even more than once in the last few rounds, so I don't think that's necessarily stopping anyone.
2) Well if we haven't even broken ground on the last TIGER grant project that we won, of course the feds won't make the same mistake twice and give Jax money. This is all supposed to be for shovel ready projects that are just waiting for that grant to go! There's a statute with this money, right? I'm sure there's another stipulation that an agency can't apply for money until it's put the prior to work...but the prior went to another agency, not JTA if I recall.
$9 billion worth of projects submitted for only $474 million total in TIGER V awards. It's definitely a crap shoot that should not be counted on for funding local projects, IMO.
QuoteQuote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
Yes, instead we'll spend a couple of hundred million on a 15-mile segment of the First Coast Expressway (formerly Outer Beltway) and SR 9B and be forever tied to the financially subsidizing responsibilities that will come with them.
As for JTA and the Brooklyn extension, my advice would remain the same as it has been for the last few years. Go "no-frills" and add a cheap at-grade station at that location. You generate the same ridership for a fraction of the costs. Yes, you may not be able to extend it to Forest Street but if the streetcar comes to fruition, you won't necessary have to do that anyway.
Now it's hard to take JTA's pitch seriously when the numbers they threw out defy logic in so many ways, and many of their numbers are clearly finger in the wind whole number guesses, but I don't think "no frills" is possible. Of the $19.738mm cost of the project, only $6.4M appears to be for the station itself, and as you pointed out, if the Skyway were to ever be expanded down more length of Riverside, it would need to be elevated, requiring that $990K elevator for ADA compliance, and likely the bulk of costs that make the station more expensive than "no frills". The remainder is for things like Command and Control ($5mm), track ($3.6mm), future vehicle maintenance ($1.2mm), guiderail ($3.3mm), etc. So would an at-grade still require that $5mm Command and Control to align it into the system? That defeats "no frills" right there.
$5 million is significantly less than $20 million. I'd consider the difference....."no-frills." Also, assuming a streetcar line is eventually extended into Riverside from downtown, the need/validity for extending the Skyway to Forest goes away, IMO. With that in mind, I'd be in favor of a much cheaper at-grade terminal station than the elevated station proposed.
QuotePersonally, I'm all for transit. But JTA can't piggyback and talk about TOD with this project when 220 Riverside is already UC and the other apartments are already in the pipeline. The Y is not TOD and the retail project is a strip center meant for going home vehicular traffic given that the bulk of its revenue will come from nat'l pharmacy and a nat'l grocer. Speaking on behalf of the development side since I work for one, I can guarandamntee you that no developer there is banking on a skyway spur and they know that their apartment residents will still rely on cars, with or without the skyway.
Coordinating land use policy with transportation infrastructure is much larger than a single entity like JTA or attracting a development firm like the one you work for. Several entities need to be involved when it comes to land use policy because it literally can reshape the built environment of the entire city. With that in mind, even the Skyway itself is an insignificant piece of the overall puzzle. Nevertheless, it's a discussion and focus that's long overdue in Jacksonville.
QuoteEven if JTA were going for TOD, they'd need to do it on a more bang for the buck system. Land use policy and transportation policy are not joined at the hip in any area or in any legal way in Jacksonville. The feds would want to see a comprehensive plan and effort by multiple agencies, and likely a larger plan, like a streetcar or LRT line that goes through a prime blighted area that has been granted TIF status and re-zoned for density/infill with design criteria to make it a walkable area with an affordable housing component. That's what the feds want to see before they throw money at transit. Hasn't JTA learned by now?
I agree that the coordination of land use policy and transportation policy isn't exactly where it needs to be in Jacksonville. I think JTA may understand the importance moreso than COJ, which has to be a willing partner and leader in the overall concept. The mobility plan/fee was setting up to swiftly move us in that direction but unfortunately much of that momentum died with the mayoral change a few years back.
Quote from: FSBA on September 10, 2013, 11:06:09 AM
It never has been. One reason I'm in favor of privatizing roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPEgIDhj5s
This has always made little sense to me. Maybe you can answer the question that bothers me about such a concept. Across the country and even in this region, most of our roads are local. Why would a private entity want to assume ownership and financial responsibility for a road like Phoenix Avenue, Post Street or Arlington Road? Quite frankly, if you have money to invest, there are a million more options out there that are available, which will result in a higher ROI.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 11:08:58 AM
[$5 million is significantly less than $20 million. I'd consider the difference....."no-frills." Also, assuming a streetcar line is eventually extended into Riverside from downtown, the need/validity for extending the Skyway to Forest goes away, IMO. With that in mind, I'd be in favor of a much cheaper at-grade terminal station than the elevated station proposed.
The $5mm was simply to integrate the new station, elevated or at-grade. $3.6mm for track (which would also be for at-grade). Future vehicle maintenance ($1.2mm), also for at-grade. Guiderail ($3.3mm), also for at-grade. I don't think "no frills" for $1-2mm or even $5mm is possible given JTA's estimates for things that come with both elevated and at-grade.
Also, if we go streetcar, why spend money at all on this spur? Can't we wait for the streetcar to come through with a station there? God help us if they build a streetcar that requires an "almost there" end of line transfer to the Skyway to get into downtown. That would be the stupidest idea ever.
Going at-grade should result in the reduction of cost for the track (you could also single track it for further savings) and guiderail. Also, why would future vehicle maintenance be included?
QuoteAlso, if we go streetcar, why spend money at all on this spur? Can't we wait for the streetcar to come through with a station there? God help us if they build a streetcar that requires an "almost there" end of line transfer to the Skyway to get into downtown. That would be the stupidest idea ever.
Because, the way Jax is going, it could be years before a streetcar comes online and the Skyway is already there. It's a short term multimodal option to utilize downtown's existing fixed circulator system to connect the Northbank and Southbank with complementing development in Brooklyn that's already adjacent to the Skyway's operations center. Also, I notice that JTA owns land between McCoys Creek and the proposed Brooklyn Riverside development. I wonder why it isn't being positioned as a potential infill development? A land lease or something could potentially be beneficial to JTA and add more people to the cluster starting to develop in Brooklyn.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 11:43:57 AM
QuoteAlso, if we go streetcar, why spend money at all on this spur? Can't we wait for the streetcar to come through with a station there? God help us if they build a streetcar that requires an "almost there" end of line transfer to the Skyway to get into downtown. That would be the stupidest idea ever.
Because, the way Jax is going, it could be years before a streetcar comes online and the Skyway is already there. It's a short term multimodal option to utilize downtown's existing fixed circulator system to connect the Northbank and Southbank with complementing development in Brooklyn that's already adjacent to the Skyway's operations center. Also, I notice that JTA owns land between McCoys Creek and the proposed Brooklyn Riverside development. I wonder why it isn't being positioned as a potential infill development? A land lease or something could potentially be beneficial to JTA and add more people to the cluster starting to develop in Brooklyn.
There's also the fact that the Skyway track is already connecting the Skyway to Brooklyn. Though streetcar track would be cheaper, you'd still have to factor in that additional distance of track.
To be honest, the cost of streetcar track would probably be a non factor in comparison. For $16 million more, you could install enough streetcar track to connect Downtown to Five Points (3 miles of track). The major difference is you'd also end up connecting the front door of every major destination between the Florida Theatre and Five Points.
Costs are the Skyway's largest negative. It costs more to extend, construct and maintain this type of system than nearly every commonly used fixed transit option out there. That's why I probably wouldn't push for anything above "no-frills" solutions to improve its effectiveness.
^Sure, but my the point is the skyway track is already in place. Any cost for extra streetcar tracks would be more than "none".
Yes. At $20 million you could install an operational streetcar line that would stretch from Florida Theatre to Brooklyn. For $16 million more, you could extend it to Five Points. Unless, a Brooklyn station was built as "no-frills," one Skyway station (based on the cost tagged in the TIGER grant application) would run you around the same thing as building a mile or two long heritage streetcar line from scratch.
Or you could build a $10 million Skyway station and then $16 million of streetcar to 5 points for roughly half the cost as doing all streetcar. The track is there, it's silly not to use it if we can.
^Yes, you could do that if the focus is primarily utilizing the streetcar to tie Brooklyn and Riverside with the existing Skyway. Long term, you'd still end up spending money to extend the streetcar to penetrate the Cathedral District and Springfield, replace that option with extending the Skyway, investing in another mode to connect to them or leaving them out in the cold.
From what I've heard, the Command and Control upgrade is necessary to add a new spur. But, it seems like at an at-grade, no frills station would cost a lot less. If I remember correctly, a portion of the TIGER application was for upgrades to existing stations (lighting). I hope JTA can pull this together and get it done.
Even with TIGER grant not coming through, this is a step in the right direction. Energy was actually taken to enhance a civic asset, one that has been getting the collective cold shoulder from the former bus fanboys running JTA.
It also showed that they are paying attention.
I also found out that FDOT owns the parcel at Riverside and Forest that Ock's proposed Brooklyn station (see Urban Dynamo story)would reside.
JTA should try again and make sure the FDOT/DOT and the FL Congressional delegation have enough time to vet the request inside the Beltway.
I get what simms is saying on the numbers, but I have always been a proponent of building the infra and then enforce good TOD around it to build it up. That is our collective weakness.
FDOT doesn't own the entire parcel. At the time of Ock's article, I checked and that site was actually a couple of small parcels owned by various entities, including FDOT.
Make Prime Osborn Center the light rail central station, and run tracks North to Gateway/Airport, south to Orange Park/dog track, east to Beach Blvd & 3rd Street, and west to Cecil Commerce Center.
High-speed rail from Prime Osborne would depart to Tallahassee, Orlando, Tampa, and Ft Lauderdale/Miami, and north to Atlanta. Of course all for under $20 round trip.
Now THAT'S what I want.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 10, 2013, 05:13:30 PM
Or you could build a $10 million Skyway station and then $16 million of streetcar to 5 points for roughly half the cost as doing all streetcar. The track is there, it's silly not to use it if we can.
I want to chime in again here. A streetcar from DT to R/A/Ortega is connecting an employment center to an area of town filled with choice riders, not captured riders (ala NW Jax, parts of the Westside, University Ave, East Arlington). A choice rider with a Honda Accord, or perhaps even a Lexus/luxury sedan, sports car, pickup truck, or SUV is not going to:
a) Want to wait around for trains that aren't on time. Separate issue, but an issue for many if not most systems.
b) Want to be the only middle/upper middle/upper class (those are rare) rider on the train (not to sound horrible, but if you're in a suit, carrying laptop and valuables, etc...you don't want to feel singled out as the only non-homeless/non-welfare/non-construction worker rider. This is an issue for Atlanta's system.)
c) AND YOU SURE AS HELL DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO TRANSFER SYSTEMS LAST MINUTE BEFORE YOUR DESTINATION
I know folks in NYC and SF who do bus/shuttle transfers to rail systems and/or to ferries/alternative modes, but only a minority percentage (I do bus transfers/rail-bus transfers routinely). It's difficult for folks in these cities, let alone a car-oriented city like Jax. The only way you're going to attract riders is to make it super convenient and easy. It's not convenient to ride to Riverside, get off, walk a bit, wait for different Skyway train, then take that in. It's much more convenient to sit in your own car, listen to your stereo, encounter little to no traffic, and park 1 or fewer blocks from your office. That's what a train is competing with in Jax.
I don't think it makes sense to spend millions for a "no frills" (relative imo) at-grade Skyway station to serve just a few additional riders, potentially, all in the name of doing something now. Brooklyn has VERY limited potential for true critical mass. There's very little else that can be done in short term in name of development, and Lake, I think you agree, what's going on in Brooklyn isn't really even material (it's just exciting to us because Jax has stooped so low that any watermark, no matter how insignificant, feels very exciting).
I would love JTA to really focus on bringing the City on board and devising a very fail safe plan to bring rail to LaVilla, Springfield, and parts of North Jax...tie land use in with city zoning agencies and planning departments with some finance guys, enlist DIA sub-parties, and get something truly worthwhile going. Focusing any time and resources on doing a small Brooklyn Skyway spur subtracts from that effort and is a waste.
Lastly, a short rail line from 5 Points to DT is definitely not worth it. You won't have a commuting critical mass. You may have some lunch hour traffic. And you don't have land use in place to make for a really dense corridor (most of Brooklyn is now already taken up by subpar dense development projects or proposals in terms of infill and 5 Points is an area of contention for density despite the fact that it has available land and mixed-use). It would be akin to Atlanta's streetcar going in, which many think is going to end up being useless and wasteful since the African American community has basically tied up all of Edgewood historical district from further adaptive reuse/development in name of history and "community", and that's the only thing tying to downtown.
^Do you think the Atlanta streetcar will eventually end up being extended to tie into the BeltLine?
They want it to. I loosely pay attention to all the plans and proposals and of course the streetcar is supposed to tie in. We'll see if and when that happens (as it is now, it's really only a few blocks from where streetcar would go along the Eastside Trail, but in the dead of summer and in the South/Sunbelt in general nobody will walk that distance).
Seeing as these boards have discussed Raleigh as of late ... Raleigh applied for and received $21 million for rail infrastructure and right of way to move its Amtrack station ... It received $10 million to rehab a historic downtown warehouse into a main passenger terminal ... and just received a $5.5 million nonmatching increase for right of way acquisition.
Why isn't our City on re-purposing the Prime Osborn? Is it a total disconnect between JTA and Council? Why would you have JTA own so much adjacent vacant land and not the one significant potential transportation asset in La Villa?
To me, its like selling a car without the tires.
Maybe Jacksonville's biggest problem is that we didn't dream big enough. Of course getting Mayor, Council and JTA to agree would require I think a novel approach. Use the vote .. get the right people in if the current can't get it done.
http://rtands.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/raleigh-receives-additional-tiger-funds-for-union-station-complex.html?channel=279
JTA applied for TIGER grant funding for the JRTC a few years back. They didn't win.
hmmm ... it would be interesting to see to analyze the differences in the proposals.
I am presuming JTA's proposal was for the multi-block byzantine model I've seen versus truly utilizing Prime Osborn. I could see where an integrated rail/bus/lightrail in Raleigh would be preferable to a bus station in downtown Jacksonville.
I wonder if its just that Raleigh had a more thoughtful and planned out multi-modal strategy?
From what I remember, at the time, it was for the monstrosity of the layout that everyone outside of the agency has questioned the validity of. If I recall, it also didn't really address things like economic impact, job creation, TOD, reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, etc. to a large degree. Overall, it was a poor package and product compared to some of the other projects across the country competing for the grant that year.
Raleigh's intermodal center is significantly smaller than that old JRTC plan, significantly cheaper and they also had some of their funds reallocated to a project in Charlotte over the last year. So, this TIGER grant helps get them back to where they were.
This is the latest rendering I've seen:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/ScreenShot2013-09-18at11410PM_zps0defd5e5.png)
JTA BROOKLYN STATION RENDERING