QuotePublic Meeting Scheduled
St. Augustine Multimodal Transportation Center Study
In concert with the City of St. Augustine, St. Johns County and the St. AugustineSt. Johns County Airport Authority, the North Florida TPO is studying options for a multimodal transportation center in the St. Augustine area. A public meeting is scheduled Thursday, Aug. 29 from 6 – 8 p.m., in the Alcazar Room, St. Augustine City Hall at 75 King Street. Please attend to review location options and let us know your preference.
With the potential to restore Amtrak service on the FEC rail line and to develop regional commuter rail, we are evaluating potential sites for a future transportation hub where people can connect to rail through many transportation options. A new multimodal center will enhance economic development and tourism, while providing new mobility choices to connect the St. Augustine area with the North Florida region.
Site options were selected by a GIS-based suitability analysis using weighted criteria. Factors considered include population, employment, accessibility via rail, plane, car, bus, trolley and bike, and environmental impacts. A stakeholder working group was formed with government officials, economic development experts, community activists, rail historians and interested citizens. The group has worked to identify potential sites, weight selection criteria and evaluate parcels ensuring a thorough and objective assessment.
Source: North Florida TPOHere are a few sites that have been considered over the past decade:
St. Augustine Airport(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/865742246_4huU9-M.jpg)
Carrera Street at US 1(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/865226119_3KzfR-M.jpg)
Former FEC San Marco Avenue Station(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/498497867_2ZZWG-M.jpg)
FEC San Marco Avenue Station during the 1960s(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/934108613_GrnfK-M.jpg)
I think the airport location is weak. I like the location at Carrera Street- very close to downtown which is a huge draw. Although that site seems small.
A true multimodal would be to build the train station opposite the airport, but the airport is somewhat distant from the historical center. This would require either some frequent bus service or a trolley/streetcar recirculator to serve tourists and commuters. Essentially more "modes".
The old FEC depot, while quaint, can not be used in its original configuration because FEC sold off a large parcel that cut out the original ROW. FEC still owns the land along US1 except for that retail center.
So if the old depot was used, it would have to be moved closer to the ROW in use, or there would be a very large platform.
Having a new station on the San Sebastian tidal flat would be ideal for tourism and commuters except for the fact that parking would be at a premium for commuters and people would have to walk/bus from the city parking garage on Castillo Drive.
There is a alot of public parking in and around the old FEC HQ building, so it is possible a walkway to the tidal flat could be build over US1.
Quote from: spuwho on August 29, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
A true multimodal would be to build the train station opposite the airport, but the airport is somewhat distant from the historical center. This would require either some frequent bus service or a trolley/streetcar recirculator to serve tourists and commuters. Essentially more "modes".
I agree. The airport location would be truly multimodal. I guess I was looking at it more through a rail-centric lens and getting people downtown efficiently.
Quote from: spuwho on August 29, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
The old FEC depot, while quaint, can not be used in its original configuration because FEC sold off a large parcel that cut out the original ROW. FEC still owns the land along US1 except for that retail center.
So if the old depot was used, it would have to be moved closer to the ROW in use, or there would be a very large platform.
A couple of years ago, this station was selected to be reopened for Amtrak service. A sketch at the time, included a large platform extending from the building. It can be seen in the graphic below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1028962940_UQHnB-600x10000.jpg)
So I'm assuming that this multimodal center would serve as the stop location for All Aboard Florida if/when it gets extended north?
I've heard that they may skip St. Augustine altogether (stopping in Daytona Beach instead) if/when they initially extend to Jax.
Wait, what? I think that would be a big mistake. Daytona a bigger destination that St. Augustine? I think not. This isn't the 80s- people don't go there for spring break anymore.
I hope that doesn't happen. I hope they both end up being stops. However, if St. Augustine does become a stop along AAF's path into Jax, I think we seriously have to question the feasibility of commuter rail between St. Augustine and Philips. With BRT still being pushed between DT and Avenues, the only area with no overlap is basically Northern St. Johns County (Nocatee, Palencia, etc.).
I kinda look at AAF and commuter rail as serving different markets. AFF being more inter-city while commuter rail is serving more the Jax region. That said, I know that it has been stated that BRT would have no affect on being able to get the Feds to fund commuter rail along Philips- I don't know that I agree. I think BRT effectively ends that corridor as being a candidate for commuter rail. The SW and North corridors are still viable options though.
By the way what is the status on the JTA commuter rail study? Haven't heard much about it in awhile.
Here's the sites being evaluated for the St. Augustine Multimodal Transportation Center:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Amtrak-FEC-Coalition/i-vRvf8mp/0/X2/All%20Sites-X2.jpg)
Site 1: Airport
Site 2: FEC property
Site 3: US 1/Old Mission Ave Site (Fountain of Youth Owned parcel)
Site 4: US 1/Carrera St
Site 5: Broudy's Parcel
Site 6: West Augustine Spur parcel
Perhaps if St. Augustine can get the center and AAF signals it's move towards Jax it will finally kill the Bad idea of BRT on Phillips.
I don't see how they city would not push for the Carrera St. location. St Aug. is one of the only walkable tourist cities that could be that closely served by rail in the state.
Site #6 seems like a really odd location.
Though I like the airport location, that map shows quite some distance between that and where ppl usually go
Quote from: cline on August 29, 2013, 09:52:31 AM
I kinda look at AAF and commuter rail as serving different markets. AFF being more inter-city while commuter rail is serving more the Jax region.
I agree on the surface. However, upon closer evaluation of how these systems may operate, I'm highly concerned.....and not in a good way.
1. Commuter rail is only going to making a few trips per day, meaning TOD opportunities will be limited outside of stations where there's frequent connectivity between other modes of transit. Overall, there's a possibility it generates less ridership than the Skyway does now partially due to it not having frequent enough service.
2. If BRT is going to run every 10-15 minutes down Philips between downtown and Avenues Mall, it will siphon riders off something that runs a block away with a max of only 4 to 6 trains per day. For example, if I'm downtown and need to get to any destination north of Avenues, I'm taking BRT instead of waiting at the station for another 45 minutes to catch a train taking me to the same spot.
I just did something similar in Cleveland. The Red Line's station in University Circle was closed the week I was there earlier this Summer, so I switched modes in downtown and took Health Line BRT to access my University Circle hotel. Where I stayed, BRT was a 1/2 block away and the Red Line station was a two block walk. If the Red Line station were open, my trips would have been mixed depending on the arrival of each mode at the nearest stops.
3. AAF's plans between Orlando and Miami call for trains running as frequent as each hour. That's a headway that commuter rail won't be matching. Thus, if there's an AAF St. Augustine stop and BRT is running every 15 minutes on Philips, the average rider has two viable higher frequency choices for that entire corridor (outside of the low density Northern St. Johns County stops). At that rate, there's a great argument that Jax would be better served targeting improving transit on other corridors throughout town instead of adding a third mode between DT and St. Augustine.
QuoteThat said, I know that it has been stated that BRT would have no affect on being able to get the Feds to fund commuter rail along Philips- I don't know that I agree. I think BRT effectively ends that corridor as being a candidate for commuter rail. The SW and North corridors are still viable options though.
This is my point 4. Good luck at winning federal dollars for commuter rail anytime soon if federal dollars are also used for BRT in this corridor. The process for federal money is already competitive. Double dipping on a corridor where ridership already won't be bustling (in comparison with others across the country competing for the same limited funds) will be difficult to pull off at best.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 29, 2013, 09:58:25 AM
Perhaps if St. Augustine can get the center and AAF signals it's move towards Jax it will finally kill the Bad idea of BRT on Phillips.
I believe BRT would already be operating years before something like AAF would come online. Also, haven't we already applied for federal money for BRT along Philips?
Quote3. AAF's plans between Orlando and Miami call for trains running as frequent as each hour. That's a headway that commuter rail won't be matching. Thus, if there's an AAF St. Augustine stop and BRT is running every 15 minutes on Philips, the average rider has two viable higher frequency choices for that entire corridor (outside of the low density Northern St. Johns County stops). At that rate, there's a great argument that Jax would be better served targeting improving transit on other corridors throughout town instead of adding a third mode between DT and St. Augustine.
Good point. I guess I was just going under the assumption that AAF would not be operating 1 hr headways to Jax. If that's the case then yes, commuter rail would not be able to compete in that corridor.
I know that the commuter rail study is ongoing but I really feel that the SW corridor would be the ideal starter line. Just seems like it has the characteristics to attract decent ridership. High employment locations (NAS Jax, DT), traffic constraints on 17 and Blanding, etc.
^I feel the same way. I think what complicates the situation is FEC is more willing than CSX to discuss passenger rail on their tracks. Nevertheless, from the outside looking in, it would seem that flat out acquiring the A Line from CSX would be the proper play for the SW Corridor.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2013, 11:01:59 AM
^I feel the same way. I think what complicates the situation is FEC is more willing than CSX to discuss passenger rail on their tracks. Nevertheless, from the outside looking in, it would seem that flat out acquiring the A Line from CSX would be the proper play for the SW Corridor.
That would be ideal but do you think its feasible? That would only leave a small portion of CSX owned track between GCS or Palatka (wherever commuter rail ends) down to Deland. CSX might not be "on board" with that idea. Maybe we should just print a bunch of money and just buy the whole line all the way down to Deland and connect it to Sunrail.
Feasible? Depending on acquisition cost and how much of the corridor is purchased, I'm not sure. I just believe it's an option that should be explored. There may be some value in the line that we could be overlooking by focusing on passenger rail, which could result in finding additional revenue streams and partnerships.
Quote from: cline on August 29, 2013, 10:03:14 AM
Site #6 seems like a really odd location.
It has two prime things going for it.
It isn't very busy on that spur (the former Palatka Main Line). Land is cheap there.
A yard to store commuter cars overnight could easily be placed there w/o obstructing main line freight traffic. A parking garage could be built near the West Augustine retail center, which could spur much needed redevelopment in the that retail corridor.
And you can bet that the existing tour buses that ply the city center would love to make a pit stop there to pick up tourists.
I agree that it isn't ideal, but it appears to have a purpose.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 29, 2013, 10:02:27 AM
I don't see how they city would not push for the Carrera St. location. St Aug. is one of the only walkable tourist cities that could be that closely served by rail in the state.
the big problem here is its virtually all wet
to the discussion between cline and Lake...
AAF is running 1 hour headways between Miami and Orlando...but has been clear that, even with stops in Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach, they do not see their service as competition with TriRail...they will charge more
It is kind of similar to when I lived in Philly...I could take Amtrak to NYC for about $30....or take SEPTA (Philly commuter rail) to Trenton and then NJ Transit to NYC for about $15...as a college student I went with the cheaper option even though the trip took a bit longer