I've been wondering what everyone's opinion is on the idea that higher gas prices could create a stronger market for urban living.
With the discussions in other threads about the threat of gas hitting $4 or even $5 per gallon, my thoughts are that despite the slow housing market, people my be forced into moving closer to work and/or replace their commute with a train or bus thereby creating a stronger market for urban living and transit.
What is everyone else's take?
Trains? What Trains? ;D
In all seriousness though, I don't know that the majority of folks who live on the Westside and/or Orange Park, who commute primarily to the South Side would be willing to move across the river. Strictly speaking from my limited experience at my office (a local medical supply company), I have a LOT of colleagues who live 'out there' who would never think of moving closer to where they work. They moved to the O.P. or West Side for a reason, and they're going to stay. And subsequently complain about the high gas prices anyway.
I wonder what other people working in other places might think?
I don't think it will really have much impact...and only would, if downtown would actually come alive and offer more housing opportunities.
Well what about the ex-urban commuters from surrounding counties?
Oh, also, my question wasn't specific to Jacksonville. :)
I think it can have an impact. In some places it already is.
QuoteHigh-rise urban living in Texas?
This is the largest state in the contiguous USA, stretching more than 700 miles from east to west and north to south, and space often seems infinite. Here, living large â€" and spread out â€" hasn't been just a choice but almost a birthright.
However, Perot's development â€" and similar plans by other developers in Austin, Fort Worth, Houston and San Antonio â€" have put Texas on the front lines of a movement reshaping downtowns across the USA.
What changed here?
Gas prices soared. Traffic congestion choked highways. Air quality worsened and so did pressure from environmental regulators. Light-rail lines came online. And demographics shifted: As baby boomers became empty nesters, their desire for convenience and fun suddenly merged with those of young professionals. Both groups are flocking to urban settings.
"People are tired of the big house, they're tired of the big yard, and there's a real movement to simplify your lifestyle as children leave," Perot says. "You can move into a beautiful downtown home, walk to the arts, walk to a basketball game, walk to restaurants. There is something unique in the downtown fabric that you couldn't get in the suburbs."
Texas now is home to three of the nation's 10 most populous cities (Houston, Dallas, San Antonio). Its population continues to grow at phenomenal rates: It added 4 million people in the 1990s and more than 2.5 million so far this decade to top 23.5 million, second only to California.
As people pour in, the state is starting to rein in its historical outward spread and venturing into un-Texan territory: high-density development, downtown living, mass transit and neighborhoods built not just for cars, but for walkers and all things urban.
"The competitive advantage of the six or 10 'real' cities in the country is that they offered unrivaled urban living," says Robert Lang, director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech. "What you have now is a much larger number of places where you can live an urban lifestyle.
"More and more cities see their built form as part of the sale, part of the calculus," he says. "If all you have is a dead downtown and strip malls, you're toast. There's a big part of the workforce that just won't tolerate that anymore."
Texas is rapidly learning that lesson. Its cities are growing up â€" literally. High-rises, multilevel apartment and condominium buildings are rising in downtowns, on old industrial sites and in abandoned neighborhoods.
full article: www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-03-verticaltexas_N.htm
Quote"More and more cities see their built form as part of the sale, part of the calculus," he says. "If all you have is a dead downtown and strip malls, you're toast. There's a big part of the workforce that just won't tolerate that anymore."
Recent census numbers, showing these Texas cities as the fastest growing, despite a slowing economy, would suggest that this is true.
Another good article about high gas prices and the effect on suburb vs. urban development.
QuoteCould rising gas prices kill the suburbs?
When a high-cost commute reaches the point of no-return, home buyers will start finding houses closer to work. In fact, some already are.
full article: http://realestate.msn.com/buying/articlenewhome.aspx?cp-documentid=742526
Lucky folks like us were able to move into the urban area, cut our car mileage from 25,000 mi/yr to 8000/yr, live-work in same place, spend more time on foot or bike and save money.
But, everyone else is not going to be able to do the same. Highrise infill isn't possible for everyone. Suburbs are already built and in need of true creative redesign.
Great info Lake.
Suburbs aren't necessarily bad if designed properly (see Springfield, Riverside, San Marco, etc.). Suburbs cater to a different type of person that may not like the urban lifestyle, however, they should cater to them by limiting their need for a car. I consider myself a bit of an outdoorsman and love my yard, but once the kids are gone I'm all for packing it all up and moving to a condo tower downtown. Most families would likely prefer their own little piece of paradise but that paradise can certainly be in a much more "urban" setting such as our historic neighborhoods. My commute today is only 30 minutes from St. Augustine and the cost of gas is still killing me. I for one have been putting some serious thought into uprooting my family of 5 (a big deal) and moving to San Marco to be closer to work as well as everything else. The problem I see in the short term is not being able to sell my rural property due to the poor market conditions. If things do work out in my favor, I may just be looking for a home closer to home in the next year or so. I have a hard time believing my situation is unique. Its likely something on the minds of many commuters here and elsewhere around the country.
I don't think paying $4 per gallon is a dramatic enough increase in commuting costs to consider moving to a more urban location. The costs associated with selling suburban property and acquiring property closer to a CBD may not gain enough favor until fuel costs exceed more than, say, an arbitrary $7 per gallon. Adjustments with discretionary spending are being made, such as dining out, going to the movies and making one-stop driving trips less infrequently to compensate for increased commuting costs. I would appreciate gas prices hovering around $2 per gallon, but it seems we factor in the cost of fuel as almost a necessity and adjust when needed.
You have a very valid point JaxNole, but how long will these people continue to pinch pennies and put their activites and desires on hold just to be able to afford to drive to work?
There's another dimension to this. As the workers who moved way out to the suburbs advance in their jobs, they'll be in better positions to telecommute or otherwise work-from-home. Technology is making this very possible. Virtual presence is a lot cheaper than the costs pointed out by JaxNole. Even an arrangement where the worker drives "in to town" once or twice a week could be viewed as preferable to uprooting their lives in the 'burbs.
I know that Prudential has been leading this effort in Jacksonville. Whole teams of people who used to work daily on the Southbank now do their jobs from their homes using a VPN, VoIP, and a little creativity. Aside from those of us committed to rebuilding Jacksonville's core, there's emerging a real Third Way for many information (insurance, call center, finance, creative) workers.
These days even I work from home. Of course my office is in Tallahassee now. But I'm just saying...
Another great point. My job is able to be done remotely from home, however, my boss hasn't been very supportive of that idea although he works from his home on a regular basis on a connection I set up for him. :)
Does anyone know if there are local carpooling programs available for commuters?
eRideShare.com lets you find people to carpool with. It's kind of like hitchhiking.
http://www.erideshare.com/carpool.php?&search=32202
Neat site, thanks Lunican. I've seen sites and services like this in many other cities but didn't know Jax had one as well.
Anyone ever used it sucessfully?
Commuting patterns shift as gas prices risehttp://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/05/26/daily25.html?surround=lfn
QuoteHigher gas prices are not only causing pain for commuters, but are also changing commuting dynamics.
More than 44 percent of professionals interviewed in a survey by Menlo Park, Calif.-based Robert Half International said higher gas prices have affected their commutes, up from 34 percent two years ago, the last time the staffing firm conducted a similar survey. Those professionals have changed their commuting habits, with more people willing to carpool or ride-share, drive a more fuel-efficient car, or telecommute more frequently.
Of the respondents to the national survey who said higher gas prices have affected their commute, 46 percent said they have increased carpooling or ride-sharing, up from 34 percent two years ago, while 33 percent said they are driving a more-efficient car. Thirty percent said they are looking for a new job closer to home, while 25 percent said they are asking for increased compensation.
The national survey included responses from 539 workers at least 18 years old and working full or part time. The survey was conducted by an independent research firm and developed by Robert Half International.
I like how these people are more interested in finding a job closer to home, instead of trying to find a home closer to their job. With most of Jacksonville's job growth outside of downtown, I can't see gas prices affecting the downtown housing market as it might in other cities.
I live way out in suburban sprawl and went to a Bar-B-Q on my street yesterday. One of the topics discussed is how we could all move to Riverside if we could sell our houses. Gas prices would have already caused a rush to more urban if it hadn't been coupled with the real estate downturn.
Everyone move to Riverside... :)
Will you buy me out of my current home? If so, I'll be calling you tonight. ;)
You know, Springfield has a lot of great deals right now too. :-D
It isn't the deal you can get on where you want to go it's can you sell what you have.
Quote from: Jason on April 03, 2008, 10:55:27 AM
I've been wondering what everyone's opinion is on the idea that higher gas prices could create a stronger market for urban living.
With the discussions in other threads about the threat of gas hitting $4 or even $5 per gallon, my thoughts are that despite the slow housing market, people my be forced into moving closer to work and/or replace their commute with a train or bus thereby creating a stronger market for urban living and transit.
What is everyone else's take?
What do you mean when you say stronger market? I think it is all on the mentality of the person. I recently had this argument with a person last week. They stated that living near a perimeter interstate was better then living downtown. Their argument is that it is quieter and safer in the burbs as opposed to downtown. They also said that you had your space. Me personally I want to live as close to downtown as I can get. That is where all the action is. Downtown to me is the safest, if i want space Ill stay inside, I enjoy the sounds of the city. Sometimes Ill come out at like 3am just to walk around downtown, most of the bums are sleeping, I actually walk past many of them. Feels like I have the whole city to my self. Occasionally a Fulton county cop will ride by, but thats all Id every see. Some people want NO PARTs of downtown regardless of gas prices or other situations. Then there is those that do.
Quote"People are tired of the big house, they're tired of the big yard, and there's a real movement to simplify your lifestyle as children leave," Perot says. "You can move into a beautiful downtown home, walk to the arts, walk to a basketball game, walk to restaurants. There is something unique in the downtown fabric that you couldn't get in the suburbs."
That about sums me up!!!
Me personally I want to live as close to downtown as I can get. That is where all the action is.
Downtown jacksonville is where all the action is? Ummmm I appreciate the power of positive thinking, but I think that statement is a bit overblown?
Quote from: civil42806 on August 19, 2008, 07:49:55 AM
Me personally I want to live as close to downtown as I can get. That is where all the action is.
Downtown jacksonville is where all the action is? Ummmm I appreciate the power of positive thinking, but I think that statement is a bit overblown?
That depends on what you consider “downtownâ€. We that live here, consider San Marco, Riverside, Avondale, and Springfield all part of downtown, not just the landing.
There is a ton going on in all these neighborhoods, there is shopping, café’s, coffee shops, theatres, nightclubs, pubs, bars, and lots and lots of events. You can ride your bike to football and baseball games, to plays, the symphony or the ballet. We have a state of the art library easily accessible, that also shows movies, and several museums. We have an abundance of parks (including an off leash dog park in Springfield), wonderful sidewalks to stroll each evening and chat with your neighbors, or meet new people. All of these neighborhoods have beautiful homes to live in or just stroll and appreciate. Each neighborhood also has special events, such as First Fridays (both Springfield and Riverside, although Springfield had this FIRST), Art Walk, Dog Days (San Marco and Springfield), Heritage days, home tours, Halloween hayride safe trick or treating, Old time baseball games, kick ball, and soccer get together, Turkey Bowl football games in the park, Christmas caroling, Food and wine clubs, and well….. The list goes on and on. So YES, Downtown is happening-not "overblown" at all! Come on down and check it out ;)
I agree if you expand downtown to include riverside, san marco, avondale?, and of course springfield, you have a very vibrant area. But why stop there, lets include the westside, southside and the beaches, and hey you got a heck of a vibrant downtonw.
Quote from: civil42806 on August 19, 2008, 09:32:28 AM
I agree if you expand downtown to include riverside, san marco, avondale?, and of course springfield, you have a very vibrant area. But why stop there, lets include the westside, southside and the beaches, and hey you got a heck of a vibrant downtonw.
is there some physical wall or gate we have to cross to officially be in downtown?
Its called "urban core" living...and it would include Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield.
I've always felt its pretty foolish to isolate the CBD as its own entity. The inner ring urban core neighborhoods are just as important to it as the apartment complexes lining Gate Parkway and Southside Blvd are to Southpoint and Deerwood Park.
Quote from: Jason on April 04, 2008, 09:47:12 AM
Another great point. My job is able to be done remotely from home, however, my boss hasn't been very supportive of that idea although he works from his home on a regular basis on a connection I set up for him. :)
Does anyone know if there are local carpooling programs available for commuters?
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=13
Continuing today's Charlotte theme, I agree with Civil due to the fact that almost no one would walk from any of the surrounding communities downtown. In Charlotte, you can walk from all of those neighborhoods into the heart of the business district to enjoy those ammentities. Thanks to the riverwalk you can do the same if you live between FNF and downtown, but someone north of State/Union, south of the river, east of Maxwell house, or west of the acosta would not make the walk to the core. Those brave souls in Springfield make the journey every now and again I'm sure, but name one urban hipster from riverside who doesn't hop in their car to go eat at the Burrito Gallery.
By this logic, I say that while the urban neighborhoods are a tremendous blessing for our city, they do no more for the area than my suburban self in Ortega.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 19, 2008, 01:42:03 PM
Continuing today's Charlotte theme, I agree with Civil due to the fact that almost no one would walk from any of the surrounding communities downtown. In Charlotte, you can walk from all of those neighborhoods into the heart of the business district to enjoy those ammentities. Thanks to the riverwalk you can do the same if you live between FNF and downtown, but someone north of State/Union, south of the river, east of Maxwell house, or west of the acosta would not make the walk to the core. Those brave souls in Springfield make the journey every now and again I'm sure, but name one urban hipster from riverside who doesn't hop in their car to go eat at the Burrito Gallery.
By this logic, I say that while the urban neighborhoods are a tremendous blessing for our city, they do no more for the area than my suburban self in Ortega.
I disagree, but of course I can only speak for my own neighborhood, Springfield. We make many trips downtown, alot of eat and shop downtown. I go downtown almost everyday, sometimes I walk, sometimes I bike, and yes sometimes (when it is just too damn hot) I drive. I think people from Springfield spend more time downtown than any other neighborhood in the city/county.
Your right, we are not as connected as some place like Charlotte, but we make it a point of going downtown, if every neighborhood did we night have a more vibrant downtown with more connectivity. In any case "CBD" implies businesses only, our downtown includes neighborhoods and entertainment districts too. I will admit the BellSouth building is pretty dead after 5PM, but that isn’t where I go hang out when I go downtown.
Quote from: civil42806 on August 19, 2008, 07:49:55 AM
Me personally I want to live as close to downtown as I can get. That is where all the action is.
Downtown jacksonville is where all the action is? Ummmm I appreciate the power of positive thinking, but I think that statement is a bit overblown?
Huh? I don't live in Jacksonville.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 19, 2008, 01:42:03 PM
Continuing today's Charlotte theme, I agree with Civil due to the fact that almost no one would walk from any of the surrounding communities downtown. In Charlotte, you can walk from all of those neighborhoods into the heart of the business district to enjoy those ammentities. Thanks to the riverwalk you can do the same if you live between FNF and downtown, but someone north of State/Union, south of the river, east of Maxwell house, or west of the acosta would not make the walk to the core. Those brave souls in Springfield make the journey every now and again I'm sure, but name one urban hipster from riverside who doesn't hop in their car to go eat at the Burrito Gallery.
By this logic, I say that while the urban neighborhoods are a tremendous blessing for our city, they do no more for the area than my suburban self in Ortega.
That is a really good point. It is actually the truth man. Its a lot of dead land between downtown Jax and those areas. Coming from riverside do you really want to walk over the Park Street bridge? or take Riverside Ave? Does the side walk on Riverside Ave even go that far? I think it stops right before the Newspapers building. Please correct me if you know actually.
I disagree. The biggest difference between Uptown Charlotte and Downtown is that the city has had a lot of new houses built in Uptown in the last decade. Charlotte's "Wards" are our LaVilla, Springfield, Brooklyn and Cathedral District. Unfortunately, we ripped out most of the housing stock and replaced it with surface parking lots of suburban low rise office parks. On top of that, we've eliminated most of the streets that once connected downtown with Springfield. Charlotte's NoDa, South End, Dilworth, etc. are cut off from Uptown by the I-277 freeway loop. That's worse then crossing State & Union, which can be eased with wide, well marked crosswalks and pedestrian crosswalk signage. However, the light rail line now provides a direct connection with some of those inner ring neighborhoods and the proposed commuter rail line will connect more.
Nevertheless, even Riverside and San Marco are a skip and a hop away from the CBD and a significant amount of those people spend time either working downtown or visiting its natural and cultural amenities. While they may be accessible only by car for the most part, they are still a critical element to the ultimate success of the CBD. We just need to realize this and make it a point to reconnect what we ripped apart.