1.) CLEARLY does not protect the properties
2.) HINDERS improvements of all kinds and makes it difficult to work on properties
3.) Tedious layers of bureaucracy are subjective and arbitrary
4.) Puts power into the hands of an artificial gentry class which determines who opens a business, lives in a house, builds an addition...parks a car., replaces a window.
5.) Costs the city tons of money which could be spent actually....on preservation.
You get a cool ornamental plaque to put on the front of your house
They actually work out pretty well in most cities that value preservation. Locally, I think the ultimate problem is that overall, we are a community that does not.
How has Springfield benefited from its designation as an historic district?
How has Jacksonville benefited from the cost expended to make and maintain it as an historic district?
I think it is time for Jacksonville to ask itself some tough questions.
Another question to consider is what's the difference in benefit between Riverside/Avondale and Springfield since their original destinations? Since Riverside/Avondale never fell as far as or was redlined like Springfield, it would be good to Springfield with other similar historic district environments throughout the state and in peer cities across the US. To ultimately get a wholesale perspective of local situation, I think it's probably just as important to look at results/processes outside of our city limits. This could be a situation where the historic designation is not the issue. Instead, it could be us.
Historic designation has worked as well for Riverside and Avondale as anywhere in the country. I'd imagine the difference between that and Springfield are the conditions of the neighborhood at and before the time they received the designation, the people involved, and their relationship with the local government.
Though I respect and support those fighting for historic preservation I have not had involvement in that arena. I do however follow such posts here and admire those that have the passion to take on such tasks. As someone from the outside looking in, when I moved to Springfield in 2002 from Ft Hood, Texas I was told (and still hear it today) that Springfield is plagued by crack and alcoholism, riverside is run by old money. Whether or not these statements are true or just urban myth, that may play a part in how others (especially outsiders) view the community. People seem to hold what others say as gospel until they see the area themselves. Perhaps Historic Springfield just needs a marketing makeover to get it back on track.
In the northeast historic districts are a wonderful accomplishment for a neighborhood to achieve. They have a better economy do to sightseers and higher ROI from a more healthy sales market. From what I've read here on MJ, it would appear that past leadership had derailed previous efforts and no one new has picked up the torch.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 27, 2013, 12:01:16 PM
Historic designation has worked as well for Riverside and Avondale as anywhere in the country. I'd imagine the difference between that and Springfield are (1)the conditions of the neighborhood at and before the time they received the designation, (2) the people involved, and (3) their relationship with the local government.
Thanks for letting me number them! :)
1.) Riverside was fairly sketchy when preservation attempts began. Matter of fact, that is probably a common theme throughout preservation. The beginnings often happen in the middle of blight.
2.) The people involved. Certainly the corruption during the reign of SRG didn't help the neighborhood and the policies enacted during this time period are in effect still. I suppose what was so harmful about this was the fact that the historic preservation commission didn't stop to look at what was happening with these policies. They didn't ask why they were approving demolitions, often on a monthly basis, without even ...say...taking a drive through Springfield. Without any checks or balances, the "people involved" had their way with the district, that is for sure.
3.) The relationship with the local government -- once the dollars for Gaffney dried up, so did his interest in the neighborhood. This move has actually been good for preservation. Or perhaps neutral.
While this helps to understand the empty lots, it doesn't explain the empty store fronts. I would point the finger at the overlay for that. It seems to empower the worst in people, declaring things like car washes and thrift stores, non-conforming, while holding out for those conforming uses which have little use for abandoned strips of commerce.
Quote from: JayBird on August 27, 2013, 12:13:12 PM
Though I respect and support those fighting for historic preservation I have not had involvement in that arena. I do however follow such posts here and admire those that have the passion to take on such tasks. As someone from the outside looking in, when I moved to Springfield in 2002 from Ft Hood, Texas I was told (and still hear it today) that Springfield is plagued by crack and alcoholism, riverside is run by old money. Whether or not these statements are true or just urban myth, that may play a part in how others (especially outsiders) view the community. People seem to hold what others say as gospel until they see the area themselves. Perhaps Historic Springfield just needs a marketing makeover to get it back on track.
In the northeast historic districts are a wonderful accomplishment for a neighborhood to achieve. They have a better economy do to sightseers and higher ROI from a more healthy sales market. From what I've read here on MJ, it would appear that past leadership had derailed previous efforts and no one new has picked up the torch.
That is what John Wells is trying to do with the cruise.
If Springfield were on the river, any part of it, the values of the properties would be much higher. I know Springfield considers itself a sprawling area, but to me, REAL Springfield is Main to 1st, to the creek and then to 8th Street. I don't consider the East Springfield area as real Springfield. The homes on Laura Street are incredible, to me at least. Put those on the water, you have serious rise in property value.
Riverside and Avondale have been able to hold their values, because you cannot tear it down. Only Kim at Code Enforcement can sign that paper. You can't create the McMansion, just cause you want to do so, this hurts the values in San Marco and Ortega, where they may call themselves a historic area, but they do not have the designation from the City to tear down. Building back up, they have the overlay to corral what they can create, but once its down, its over.
Look at the property values of Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, Ortega, San Marco. Four of these five are located by the water, and there is only so much river access. Springfield would be much more valuable on the river.
Interesting points.
What are the expectations of naming a district" historic?" What do we want as an outcome?
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 28, 2013, 08:30:35 AM
Riverside and Avondale have been able to hold their values, because you cannot tear it down. Only Kim at Code Enforcement can sign that paper. You can't create the McMansion, just cause you want to do so, this hurts the values in San Marco and Ortega, where they may call themselves a historic area, but they do not have the designation from the City to tear down. Building back up, they have the overlay to corral what they can create, but once its down, its over.
Look at the highlighted sentence above. Therein lies a big part of our problem in Springfield. WHY is it that Code Enforcement is so quick to "sign that paper" in Springfield and not in other areas? And as to your points on values being higher if Springfield were on the river, that's true of any type of property, historic or not.
Springfield contains some of the OLDEST structures in the City of Jacksonville. Did we have problem with crime and drugs at some point? Yes, as did other areas. Is there still a problem in Springfield with crime and drugs? Not any more than any other area of town.
People need to stop saying negative things about Springfield - they obviously have absolutely no first hand knowledge of our gem of a district.
Well, my old neighborhood before SPR had fallen as far as Springfield (but with FAR, FAR fewer demolitions). The neighborhood had a mix of small and large (the smaller were smaller and the large larger than SPR), grand and simple, perfectly preserved with every piece in tact and husks of historics with new guts, etc. The main differences I see in terms of why SPR is fairing worse are 1) a tedious layer-cake of city and neighborhood bureaucracy instead of streamlined process, 2) the presence of an overarching neighborhood organization that had design review power (that rested with the ONE city planning and permitting office in Knoxville that one had to deal with) and the neighborhood org was volunteer and more helpful, 3) the commercial corridor was full of local businesses (from cute retail to junk stores, car dealerships to urban organic co-ops) and city offered incentives for small and local businesses, 4) no one had to fight the city -- the Knoxville downtown revitalization plan needed 4th & Gill and Old North Knoxville historic districts to turn around to make downtown more successful as it was the closest neighborhood to the Old City district that wasn't dominated by the University, 5) the neighborhood attracted a ton of professor families from the University but was also a rental haven for grad/professional students. 6) There were small houses (<1500 sq. ft) in the neighborhood, too. Their residents were welcomed, and small infill was encouraged. 7) The guidelines for renovation were looser in some places, stricter in others, but overall fairer, easier to comply with, and economically more feasible for most owners. For example, if you wanted to dress up your vernacular to look more like a Key West it was allowed, so long as you mirrored other styles in the neighborhood. You could remove a second entry door on a former duplex conversion. You could add solar panels without approval. I don't know of one case where someone was vilified for in the 'hood for a certain front door, column replacement, or for renovating a burned-out shell with newer materials. Slow restorations and renovations were par for course and tolerated. 8 ) The desire to build "reproduction" houses instead of allowing modern in-fill did not exist as a policy. Infill architecture was more fluid; it reflected individual taste but had to match neighborhood scale and features (such as porches). There were a couple great modern homes and some cool modern renovations inside historic shells.
I'd say overall, until about 5-10 years ago, most Knoxville residents had the same negative perceptions of ONK that people here have about SPR.
Nutshell: The city doesn't care; the bureaucracy makes things too hard. The neighborhood isn't as neighborly (but this has improved in the last few years.) There aren't oodles of high-salary great jobs for professionals and a more vibrant downtown nearby.
ONK and 4th and Gill also billed themselves as cool. We basically ran ourselves ragged trying to attract hipsters and get the city (and one nearby church) to allow bars on the Central St./Broadway corridor.
Quoteriverside is run by old money.
About 40% of the people living in Riverside are RENTERS who are living in some of the cool, small apartment houses or the neat bungalows that line the streets. There is very little old or for that matter new money in Riverside except in a few pockets.
You were meaning Avondale maybe?
QuoteAnd as to your points on values being higher if Springfield were on the river, that's true of any type of property, historic or not.
But we're talking about the HISTORIC districts here in Jacksonville. Of all of them, Springfield has no river access, so I'd say that is a huge factor in whether or not people care. I know there are people in Springfield who care about the neighborhood, but go into Riverside and Avondale and see how many boarded up homes there are there and compare it to Springfield. Why are homes boarded up in Springfield? Fix the boarded up issues and that is a start.
QuotePeople need to stop saying negative things about Springfield - they obviously have absolutely no first hand knowledge of our gem of a district.
Fix the boarded up homes and you will stop being the butt of all the jokes and they will move their jokes onto Paxon.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 17, 2013, 07:26:48 PM
Fix the boarded up homes and you will stop being the butt of all the jokes and they will move their jokes onto Paxon.
agree.
you contradict yourself however as you are a vocal proponent against mothballing.
Mothballing is a first step in "fix the boarded homes."
Quoteyou contradict yourself however as you are a vocal proponent against mothballing.
Mothballing is a first step in "fix the boarded homes."
I disagree. How many mothballed homes do you see in Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, Ortega? Granted there are some in Avondale along Cherry Street, yeah, I know Cherry in the heart of the burgeoning Park Street Gastropub explosion! (Opportunity for someone!) Some others on Forbes too, but most lots are owned or being built on, the land is that valuable!
Mothballing is for lazy owners, plain and simple. Fix the house or get rid of it to someone who will fix it. If the area is hot enough and enough value, someone will fix it and use it for rental or sale. The problem in Springfield there is not enough "high value" except some of the main core streets like Laura and around Laura. There are some nice newer homes on Market, but there are so many empty lots in and around houses, these empty lots, to me, also count as mothballed sites.
Springfield has so many social and economic issues, where to start to discuss and try and fix. The bottom line is the value of property in Springfield is less than the other Historic Districts and few new home buyers want to buy something that is perceived to be less valuable than a house in the other districts.
Quotethirty years ago there were quite a few, mtrain.
Living in the past is a dull and lonely business....
Quoteno it isn't. And being aware of how things actually work often goes a long way towards understanding the future, you know.
Yes it is, we are not going to agree, so what's new. Looking back just shows you where you have been. It does not stop us from making the same mistakes over and over and over. Community mistakes are made daily, by new people who are not familiar with the mistakes made by their predecessors.
Why do you think we have such a blase attitude toward every "this will revitalize downtown" story that gets posted? We've heard the same music for 30 years.
But, let's say you are right, not admitting it of course, then if Dr. Wood started RAP 30 years ago to prevent the decay and demolition of buildings in Riverside and Avondale, where have the leaders of Springfield been all those 30 years, have they not learned and watched what Riverside and Avondale have accomplished? To me, they have not learned a thing, proving my point to look ahead, not behind. Where is the Dr. Wood of Springfield?
Stephen, I appreciate the insight with regard to all the people involved in Springfield, but who will emerge as the real lightening rod? Who will spearhead the change in Springfield, so that we read about them here on MJ? Wood has become a great leader of Riverside Avondale, I know there are others, but still, he has taken the bull by the horn and pushed.
Springfield needs someone in the same, someone who can wrap the cloth of Springfield and become the voice of Springfield. For a time, I thought of Louise as the voice of Springfield. Carmen looks good at RAP on her own, and she has assistance from Dr. Wood.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 28, 2013, 08:30:35 AM
If Springfield were on the river, any part of it, the values of the properties would be much higher. I know Springfield considers itself a sprawling area, but to me, REAL Springfield is Main to 1st, to the creek and then to 8th Street. I don't consider the East Springfield area as real Springfield...
Really, mtrain? So apparently, while we have lived in Historic Springfield for 8+ years, according to you, we only spent 2 or so of those years in "REAL Springfield." Having lived north of 8th Street in the NW quadrant from 2007 until 2013, we now apparently really moved to the boonies, in the NE quadrant, north of 8th, which apparently doesn't count at all since it's on the east side of Main Street.
Really, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The east side of Springfield is just as nice as the west side of Springfield.
And since the thread has moved on from that subject...who is the "Dr. Wood" of Springfield? There isn't one. Why does there need to be? Wayne Wood didn't do it on his own, as Stephen pointed out. Small groups of dedicated people are working their hearts out to preserve the old homes. So stop running down the neighborhood and get on board. 0
I lived in Riverside when it was pretty much a dump, and worked in San Marco when it was ditto. St. Vincent's Hospital, Riverside Hospital, and Baptist Hospital were buying up houses to demolish them and build parking lots and new buildings. Lots of old homes were falling apart. My husband and I tried to buy a house on Stockton Street in 1973, but couldn't because the plaster was all falling off the walls and we couldn't go FHA. That was the case in most of Riverside. Few homes over there qualified for FHA then because they weren't in good enough shape, and we didn't have a big down payment.
Just because Springfield had a larger battle to fight, and has unfortunately had to fight the battle within at times, doesn't mean we can't win in the end.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 21, 2013, 09:32:14 AM
For a time, I thought of Louise as the voice of Springfield.
Wow!
QuoteReally, mtrain? So apparently, while we have lived in Historic Springfield for 8+ years, according to you, we only spent 2 or so of those years in "REAL Springfield." Having lived north of 8th Street in the NW quadrant from 2007 until 2013, we now apparently really moved to the boonies, in the NE quadrant, north of 8th, which apparently doesn't count at all since it's on the east side of Main Street.
Debbie, Its my opinion, I had family buy property on Liberty Street back in the 80s and the place really has not changed much. A friend sold a house on Market Street recently, it was a new house made by Lifestyles, but it was a new house, when there are so many empty lots yet to build on. There is a LOT of opportunity all over Springfield, my point was the best old parts are west of Main Street, my opinion only.
QuoteReally, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The east side of Springfield is just as nice as the west side of Springfield.
I disagree! Shocking, I know.
QuoteAnd since the thread has moved on from that subject...who is the "Dr. Wood" of Springfield? There isn't one. Why does there need to be? Wayne Wood didn't do it on his own, as Stephen pointed out. Small groups of dedicated people are working their hearts out to preserve the old homes. So stop running down the neighborhood and get on board. 0
I sincerely hope you and the small groups are able to save Springfield and rebuild it into what it was at the turn of the 19th century. However, we are not in the 19th century anymore. I find it interesting when Dr. Wood is quoted in the Times Union and "right or wrong" he speaks for the citizens of Avondale. I don't know who speaks for Springfield, but if there are many dedicated people speaking for Springfield, great, you have more voices!
QuoteI lived in Riverside when it was pretty much a dump, and worked in San Marco when it was ditto. St. Vincent's Hospital, Riverside Hospital, and Baptist Hospital were buying up houses to demolish them and build parking lots and new buildings.
Riverside has parts that are still a dump, no kidding. Some parts of Post Street are amazing and then there are "historic" homes that are in very bad shape. But for all the dumpy parts, Riverside must be doing something right with the new Beacon project. San Marco seems to have rebounded, was nice to see investors paying over 50 million in cash for the Strand. Hospitals will always be buying up properties around their area, Memorial has done the same thing in demolishing houses around its area. To compete with Baptist, its either grow or go the way of Jacksonville General....
I hope Springfield comes back, it will be great for the citizens and those who live there. It would be a great story for urban areas around the country. Don't stop fighting!