Downtown Revitalization: Raleigh, Seven Years Later
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2665102357_xcHfCzh-M.jpg)
Downtown revitalization is something that Jacksonville has struggled with for 40 years now. Perhaps we are making revitalization more difficult than it has to be? During Metro Jacksonville's early years, we looked at Raleigh's plans for revitalizing their downtown. Now seven years later, we revisit the city to see if things have changed for the better.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-downtown-revitalization-raleigh-seven-years-later
I just don't get why Jacksonville doesn't see the value in building a new convention center. I hate to say "everybody's doing it" but in this case, I think it makes the point to an extent. Raleigh's has been successful for sure and it's good to see their downtown going to the next level overall.
I think many see value or at least spin off potential. However, no administration since Delaney has been publicly willing to lead a fight to raise taxes to fund anything related to enhancing the city's quality-of-life. Instead the focus remains on reducing services by cutting to the bone.
That's pretty sad. It's just mind-boggling to me that the leadership of a city Jacksonville's size has the mentality of a small-town city council. Shame...
I'm surprised this hasn't gotten many replies. Do folks in Jacksonville just not like Raleigh? LOL
Lol, good question. Anything about Charlotte typically generates a ton of discussion. I assume most probably aren't as familiar with Raleigh as they are with larger cities across the country. However, in terms of scale, Jacksonville definitely has more in common with Raleigh than it does with significantly larger urban areas like DC, Miami and Atlanta.
I'll tell you what, I was at the Raleigh Art Museum about a year ago and was knocked to the floor. A spectacular collection and outdoor sculpture park. Makes anything we have pale in comparison.
I have always liked Raleigh. It just doesn't seem to get as much positive public play as other southern communities like Jacksonville for instance. lmao
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 03, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
I have always liked Raleigh. It just doesn't seem to get as much positive public play as other southern communities like Jacksonville for instance. lmao
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville. I have been to Raleigh maybe 4-5 times and I personally don't like it at all. That being said, I see much more going on there than in Jacksonville. It's still more suburban on average...for instance, less than 2 miles from downtown the highways travel through pine forest. That's not to say that areas like Glenwood Park, North Hills, and parts of Durham and Orange County are not booming with urban infill development of a relatively high quality in relation to the size of the area. Raleigh was the hottest multifamily development market in the country a year ago with thousands of infill mid-rise units under development in a few hot submarkets to the west and northwest of DT and in Cary and Durham, with rents approaching $2/sf. The thing about Raleigh is that you get a lot of 6-12 month transients there on assignment, which is not the best for luxury rentals as turnover can be high if you rely on those folks and they aren't looking for luxury anyways.
Raleigh has some key assets that make it incomparable to Jacksonville in a few ways: RTP, Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, NC State, the three big hospital networks there (Wakemed, Duke, UNC), state capital of seriously important state of the union nowadays, etc. Its airport is my favorite non-hub airport that I've ever been to...clean, spacious, intriguing design that far outshines its larger competitors across the country, its convenience to the Triangle's "downtown", which is RTP, and its affordability to fly into.
I've heard good things about its art museum, but I wouldn't travel there just to see that when you have more notable art museums in the south (the High, a couple in FL and the Nasher in Dallas as well as Houston's).
I guess in my opinion having traveled in limited quantities to each city and not knowing all the ins and outs, I believe I would undoubtedly rather live in Charlotte than Raleigh.
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
I have been to Raleigh maybe 4-5 times and I personally don't like it at all. That being said, I see much more going on there than in Jacksonville. It's still more suburban on average...for instance, less than 2 miles from downtown the highways travel through pine forest.
QuoteI guess in my opinion having traveled in limited quantities to each city and not knowing all the ins and outs, I believe I would undoubtedly rather live in Charlotte than Raleigh.
That whole Triangle area is similar to metros like Greenville-Spartanburg, Sarasota-Bradenton, Lakeland-Winter Haven, etc. In general, they are urban areas where several mid-sized and smaller communities have sprawled together over the later half of the 20th century. For the most part, all of the cities that make up these metropolitan areas were small towns prior to WWII.
A decade ago, I used to use this census link to help determine which cities had decent sized pre-WWII urban cores, which impacted the path of most road trips I'd select to take.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/twps0027.html
^It contains the overall population, density and size (square mileage) of the country's top 100 cities by decade between 1790 and 1990. Just about any city (those that didn't go urban renewal crazy) on this list that had an overall population density of +8,000-10,000 per mile prior to 1950 has a decent sized urban core area in comparison to Jax.
Raleigh didn't crack the top 100 until 1990 with 207,951 residents spread over 88.1 square miles. By comparison, here's the list of cities between 200,000 and 250,000 in 1950.
250,767 - 34.7 square miles - Long Beach, CA
249,276 - 34.2 square miles - Miami, FL
248,674 - 17.9 square miles - Providence, RI
243,872 - 25.0 square miles - Dayton, OH
243,504 - 50.8 square miles - Oklahoma City, OK
230,310 - 37.1 square miles - Richmond, VA
220,583 - 25.3 square miles - Syracuse, NY
213,513 - 28.2 square miles - Norfolk, VA
204,517 - 30.2 square miles - Jacksonville, FL203,486 - 37.0 square miles - Worcester, MA
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt
With a +40 year head start in achieving this population in more compact areas, it would be reasonable to expect they would all have larger walkable urban cores (this doesn't mean their cores are vibrant) than Raleigh today, despite Raleigh surpassing several in overall population over the last few decades. With cities like Raleigh and Charlotte, I think it's pretty cool to see them growing up right in front of our eyes. I can only assume what we're seeing now with them is what the country saw with cities like Detroit 100 years ago.
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 03, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
I have always liked Raleigh. It just doesn't seem to get as much positive public play as other southern communities like Jacksonville for instance. lmao
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville. I have been to Raleigh maybe 4-5 times and I personally don't like it at all. That being said, I see much more going on there than in Jacksonville. It's still more suburban on average...for instance, less than 2 miles from downtown the highways travel through pine forest. That's not to say that areas like Glenwood Park, North Hills, and parts of Durham and Orange County are not booming with urban infill development of a relatively high quality in relation to the size of the area. Raleigh was the hottest multifamily development market in the country a year ago with thousands of infill mid-rise units under development in a few hot submarkets to the west and northwest of DT and in Cary and Durham, with rents approaching $2/sf. The thing about Raleigh is that you get a lot of 6-12 month transients there on assignment, which is not the best for luxury rentals as turnover can be high if you rely on those folks and they aren't looking for luxury anyways.
Raleigh has some key assets that make it incomparable to Jacksonville in a few ways: RTP, Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, NC State, the three big hospital networks there (Wakemed, Duke, UNC), state capital of seriously important state of the union nowadays, etc. Its airport is my favorite non-hub airport that I've ever been to...clean, spacious, intriguing design that far outshines its larger competitors across the country, its convenience to the Triangle's "downtown", which is RTP, and its affordability to fly into.
I've heard good things about its art museum, but I wouldn't travel there just to see that when you have more notable art museums in the south (the High, a couple in FL and the Nasher in Dallas as well as Houston's).
I guess in my opinion having traveled in limited quantities to each city and not knowing all the ins and outs, I believe I would undoubtedly rather live in Charlotte than Raleigh.
I was making a joke Simm's. Did you notice the lmao following my comments? :)
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.
Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through.
I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2013, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.
Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through.
I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....
Keep in mind that I-95 is about 25 miles (if that) from the Raleigh city limits and I-85, which is much more developed than 1-95, is about 20 or less miles away from Raleigh proper. So for all intents and purposes they have three interstates.
Even though it is eclipsed by Charlotte in most respects, In terms of economic development and reputation, Raleigh far exceeds JAX.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 04, 2013, 10:37:16 PM
Even though it is eclipsed by Charlotte in most respects, In terms of economic development and reputation, Raleigh far exceeds JAX.
What 'reputation' it being a world class city all of a sudden?
Quote from: Apache on September 04, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
Lakelander:
Probably a stupid question, but I notice that on a few of your comparisons (maybe all) you state as Urban infill obstacles that State & Union Streets cut off downtown Jacksonville from Springfield.
For us newbies and non-planning experts can you explain that more specifically?
Sure. The most vibrant downtowns across the country are typically those that spill over into adjacent urban neighborhoods. For example, in Boston at street level you don't really notice when you're out of the Financial District and in Back Bay. In DC, you can move from downtown to Dupont Circle without really noticing an abrupt change in walkability and vibrancy.
Before we purposely tore up the street grid and made State & Union into highways, downtown extended to Hogans Creek. There, you had a green space with Springfield forming the north border of the green space. Right now, State & Union has become an abrupt line between what we consider downtown and areas to the north. By finding ways to enhance multimodal connectivity and change land use patterns in the area, we can extend the walkable footprint of downtown to once again integrate with Springfield. This will economically enhance both districts.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 04, 2013, 10:37:16 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2013, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.
Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through.
I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....
Keep in mind that I-95 is about 25 miles (if that) from the Raleigh city limits and I-85, which is much more developed than 1-95, is about 20 or less miles away from Raleigh proper. So for all intents and purposes they have three interstates.
Even though it is eclipsed by Charlotte in most respects, In terms of economic development and reputation, Raleigh far exceeds JAX.
I'm pretty calm I-10east. But the spheres of people I have met outside of Jacksonville are quite familiar with Raleigh and less so with Jax. Jax has the Jaguars, but it doesn't mean people necessarily know much about the city of Jax or where in FL it is situated when most people really truly only know about Orlando and Miami and then only maybe where those cities are in relation to the state's geography.
Raleigh has the best overall universities in the south and several of the best in the country, which means that much more "business" is naturally happening in Raleigh than in Jacksonville and the generally educated populace is likely to be more familiar with Raleigh as quite a few people spent at least 4 years of their life there :). RTP itself is generally unparalleled in the world for much of the R&D that is conducted there and plenty more global 500 firms have presence in Raleigh than NEFL. RDU has direct flights to far more domestic destinations than JIA, and internationally goes nonstop daily to Toronto and London. It doesn't hurt that before the current Republican crisis in NC that the state was the most progressive and business friendly in the south, and Raleigh was the seat of the state.
But, as I said, I personally can't stand Raleigh. Lots of young professionals there, but they aren't there for quality of life. They are there on assignment for 12-24-36 months working for some big firm, or they found entry job there after graduating from Duke, UNC, NC State, or the countless other highly ranked universities in NC that feed that state's economy (Wake Forest, Davidson, UNC Charlotte, UNC Wilmington, etc etc). Raleigh is also a preferred destination for NE transplants. So is Charlotte. Both even moreso than FL. Of my college fraternity of 60 or so active brothers, I knew of 4 off the top of my head whose parents moved from CT or MA down to Raleigh or Charlotte, and another whose parents moved from Pittsburgh, during my 4 years in college. Along with Charlotte, Raleigh's a city that's very well known for a variety of reasons, which is why it's one of the top 5 fastest growing cities/metros in the country for the past 2 decades. Last year it was the #1 multifamily investment market in the country with REITs and institutional groups leading the charge, along with a slew of offshore capital sources from AsiaPac and EMEA countries. Jacksonville can't stake that claim and likely never will in our lifetimes.
Bottom line is that aside from the fact that Raleigh is much more quickly transforming than Jax and building up entire infill neighborhoods like we only wish we could, I wouldn't judge Raleigh by its downtown. It pulls its weight in the middle of Raleigh and Durham with RTP and nearby RDU and the many master-planned god-awful communities like Brier Creek or Stonewater, and while NC State is near DT Raleigh, both Duke and Chapel Hill are on the other side of Durham. DT Durham itself in my opinion is the Triangle's gem.
^^^Yup, people can never seem to know where Jax is located on the end of a major interstate, or know anything about the city itself, but RALEIGH, aw man it sticks out like the Florida Keys, as it's VERY easy the find, and it's world renowned; The old 'people don't know where it is located' argument can be VERY subjective to any individual, I never bought that MJ cliche. We live in a GPS society anyway; Rarely do I have to bust out the old Rand McNally map anymore.
I see these 'top 10 lists' all of the time, and I take them with a grain of salt; Often Jax gets graded high on similar lists, and of course the local negative nannies b*tch and moan saying that the list isn't accurate. To be honest, the only thing that I knew about Raleigh (subjective to me) was that it's the state capital, and the Carolina Hurricanes play there; I would be considered like a Raleigh expert to all of the people I know with that lil info. Jax has nearby attractions (like St Augustine etc) that fickle locals disregard saying that it's 'too far' but when another city has something 60 miles outta the radius, it's as if it was all in the center of downtown Raleigh (spread out colleges, hospitals, attractions, highways etc). Thanks for the info though Simms.
Quote from: I-10east on September 04, 2013, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on September 03, 2013, 11:38:48 PM
I disagree, from my perspective Raleigh is much more well known and positively talked about than Jacksonville.
Calm down with using these dramatic phrases like "much more well known". Yeah, it's a capital, but it's not DC for godsakes. There is something that's called the NFL that will automatically make Jax more well known than Raleigh, not to mention the Fortune 500s, just keeping it real. Hell, most probably don't even know that the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL play there. Charlotte vastly overshadows Raleigh in the state. Jax is on the Eastern seaboard with highways that goes through damn near all of the largest cities in this country I-10 and I-95; Raleigh is a landlocked city with I-40 going through.
I'm not even saying that Raleigh isn't doing alot of good things there compared to Jax right now, because it seems like a pretty underrated city, but lets keep things into perspective, and not act as if Raleigh is some 'roll right off the tongue' world class mecca....
Charlotte of course is the biggest city and metro in the state, but I wouldn't say that it "vastly overshadows" Raleigh. Raleigh has been growing at a slightly faster rate and Wake County (Raleigh) is on the verge of overtaking Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) in population. And when it comes to higher ed, Raleigh definitely shines brighter. Charlotte has a much larger corporate presence/profile, but Raleigh/the Triangle gets the lion's share of the tech-oriented jobs which tend to pay a little more. So I'd say Charlotte has a larger profile, but not by quite as much as you're making it out to be.
Compared to Jacksonville, I'd say Raleigh has the higher profile nationally because it's strongly associated with the area universities and RTP, plus it's been among the fastest-growing metro areas in the country for 2-3 decades now. I don't think Jacksonville has as strong of an association with anything industrial or cultural, except perhaps for the Navy.
PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 12:21:21 AM
PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....
This is a strawman.
You know it's quite possible for a city to be performing a bit better than Jacksonville and not be world class. Cities like Atlanta and Houston, which are clearly heads and shoulders above Jacksonville, would also be out of place among the likes of Paris, Tokyo, and NYC.
In 2007, Jacksonville's GDP ($60.264 billion) was almost $9 billion more than Raleigh's ($51.627 billion). In a mere four years, Raleigh was able to close that gap by about $7 billion ($58.746 billion) as Jacksonville's GDP remained virtually static ($60.725 billion). And this is just Raleigh's MSA by itself, not including the rest of the Triangle (Durham [which is home to the vast majority of RTP], Chapel Hill).
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 06, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 12:21:21 AM
PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....
This is a strawman.
For me to be a 'strawman' I have to misrepresent what you spoke on, but I was being sarcastic; If you're gonna use a dumb cliche, atleast use it in it's proper context.
Raleigh's a cute lil' growing city, but I'm not buying this overhyping of that city. None of yall NEVER talked about Raleigh until now. Surrounding points of interest outside of a city doesn't make a city; That's just like saying Ft Lauderdale is some first rate city, just because it's by Miami. I don't even see Raliegh listed on the map on national weather forecasts. Sorry Raleigh, we don't believe you, you need more people.
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 06, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 12:21:21 AM
PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....
This is a strawman.
I don't even see Raliegh listed on the map on national weather forecasts. Sorry Raleigh, we don't believe you, you need more people.
FYI, Wake County already has more people than Duval County.
Regarding Ft. Lauderdale, Broward already has more than twice as many people residing in it as Duval.
^^^I like how yall cherry pick some haphazard info that I didn't even mention (like particular counties' population) and turn it back against Jax (in true MJ fashion). Wow, freaking Broward County (which has over two dozen cities) and Wake County (which has Raleigh, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill) has more people than Duval!! No way, wow impressive....
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 05:50:36 PM
^^^I like how yall cherry pick some haphazard info that I didn't even mention (like particular counties' population) and turn it back against Jax (in true MJ fashion). Wow, freaking Broward County (which has over two dozen cities) and Wake County (which has Raleigh, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill) has more people than Duval!! No way, wow impressive....
Raleigh-Cary is Wake. Durham is Durham County. Chapel Hill is Orange County. Overall, the Triangle has about 2 million people and its largest four central counties alone are:
Wake - 952,151 people in 832 sq mi (1,144 ppsm)
Durham - 279,671 people in 290 sq mi (964 ppsm)
Johnston - 168,878 people in 792 sq mi (213 ppsm)
Orange - 133,801 people in 295 sq mi (454 ppsm)
TOTAL - 1,534,501 people in 2,209 sq mi (695 ppsm)
Contrast with Jax:
Duval - 879,602 people in 774 sq mi (1,136 ppsm)
St. Johns - 202,188 people in 609 sq mi (332 ppsm)
Clay - 194,345 people in 601 sq mi (323 ppsm)
Nassau - 74,629 people in 652 sq mi (114 ppsm)
TOTAL - 1,350,764 people in 2,636 sq mi (512 ppsm)
So, I guess my argument could indicate that by all accounts Raleigh
should be ahead of Jax in most things, but my argument also indicates that Raleigh is materially a larger city than Jax and is not only in a different league in terms of basically everything less having an NFL team or a beach, it is in a different league in terms of population too.
Jax feels more urban and dense in its core and Duval feels larger than Wake County, but NE FL population is small and has lots of sparsities and drop offs. Raleigh has pine forests within view of its downtown, but overall the city and metro area are technically denser than Jax and the population is built up more densely over more area. On a much larger scale Atlanta is this way. Atlanta is 2,000-3,000 ppsm for thousands of square miles and aside from a few dense pockets in the city is a relatively uniformly built out place. Atlanta can feel much larger than it is basically due to its endless skylines and super urban sprawl for many miles in all directions. The traffic and big city amenities and LAesq sprawl give it a "larger" feel than SF sometimes, which can be walked across in just a couple hours and you've basically seen the whole city. However, at street level, an SF on a Friday afternoon, aka now, can feel much more like a Manhattan than almost any other American city, a fast-paced city feel you'll never experience in LA, Atlanta, Houston, or Dallas.
Fulton County - 977,773 people in 529 sq mi (1,848 ppsm)
Gwinnett County - 842,046 people in 433 sq mi (1,945 ppsm)
Cobb County - 707,442 people in 340 sq mi (2,081 ppsm)
Dekalb County - 707,089 people in 268 sq mi (2,638 ppsm)
TOTAL - 3,234,350 people in 1,570 sq mi (2,060 ppsm)
Jax can barely hold onto 2,000-3,000 ppsm for just a hundred square miles and has no truly dense areas anywhere. So while to me it can feel larger than Raleigh on a quick drive through, its economy is smaller, its population is smaller, its pull and reputation is smaller, and its growth is certainly a lot smaller. Jax neither offers sheer size like Atlanta (and Raleigh and Charlotte are trending towards an Atlanta) nor does it offer a walkable city culture that a Charleston, Miami Beach, New Orleans, or DC offer.
Raleigh is a larger city, plain and simple.
Basically, Jax has a larger historic urban core because it was much larger than Raleigh before WWII. I also think being a waterfront city has something to do with it.
From what I understand Simms, some parts of Durham are in Wake County, although the majority is in Durham County. So, the largest successful cities are all about people per square mile, news to me....FWIW, Jax has a larger city, and metro population than Raleigh; Jax has no CSA, and Raleigh has a big one with a population that's larger than Duval County; CSA's are more about what a combined multi-county has in population, not necessarily what Raleigh has individually in population. So I'll keep that in mind; Cram a bunch of people together (ppsm) = success; It sure worked out for the favelas down there in Rio.
I would guess that Raleigh also has a much higher per capita income, more college graduates, and lower unemployment than JAX
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 11:20:00 PM
It sure worked out for the favelas down there in Rio.
have you followed what's going on in Brazil lately? Their economy is booming and Rio is hosting the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016. Sounds like a pretty important world city to me.
ROME BEIJING RALEIGH LOS ANGELES MADRID TORONTO HONG KONG....
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 07, 2013, 09:08:04 AM
have you followed what's going on in Brazil lately? Their economy is booming and Rio is hosting the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016. Sounds like a pretty important world city to me.
I'm aware of the Olympics there. Although I have a strong hunch that the Rio isn't exactly proud of it's favelas; You sure as hell won't see them showcased on NBC like the Christ the Redeemer statue or something. I never said that Rio wasn't an important city, as is Raleigh to the world economy apparently....
Quote from: I-10east on September 07, 2013, 10:47:59 AM
ROME BEIJING RALEIGH LOS ANGELES MADRID TORONTO HONG KONG....
What is your point in repeating this, particularly when no one said Raleigh was in the league of these cities? You sound like a petulant 5 year old.
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 06, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 06, 2013, 12:21:21 AM
PARIS TOKYO SHANGHAI NEW YORK RALEIGH SYDNEY MOSCOW....
This is a strawman.
For me to be a 'strawman' I have to misrepresent what you spoke on, but I was being sarcastic; If you're gonna use a dumb cliche, atleast use it in it's proper context.
It was an appropriate cliche, properly used via the implication you were making.
QuoteRaleigh's a cute lil' growing city, but I'm not buying this overhyping of that city. None of yall NEVER talked about Raleigh until now.
We're talking about Raleigh now because it's the subject of this article, duh. I'm not very active in these forums but when I do participate, it's mainly in the "learning from" part when discussing other cities.
You can call Raleigh "overhyped," but you can't deny the population and economic growth and development that's occurring there that's outstripping what's happening in Jax. What's your answer for Raleigh's GDP growth in the past four years? It's virtually caught up to Jax's and is about ready to surpass it. Raleigh is actively making strides to enter the next tier of cities while Jacksonville can't even get its act together enough to build a real convention center.
QuoteSurrounding points of interest outside of a city doesn't make a city; That's just like saying Ft Lauderdale is some first rate city, just because it's by Miami. I don't even see Raliegh listed on the map on national weather forecasts. Sorry Raleigh, we don't believe you, you need more people.
Raleigh is the largest city in the Triangle and functions as an interdependent part of a whole, which is true of many other cities. Your Ft. Lauderdale/Miami analogy fails because Raleigh would be Miami and Durham would be Ft. Lauderdale. And plenty of national weather forecast maps show Raleigh, but having to resort to such a silly measure is very telling on your part.
^^^Hooray!!! The Research Triangle Park, a high tech suburban uber-office complex is the center of focus for Raleigh. I'm sure that people outside of that field of research work are ALL-SO intrigued on what goes on in a hard to access security zone (for people who don't have any business there). I can't wait to test my luck and try to visit it; Hopefully I won't get arrested. This place just OOZES tourism interest....
Despite Raleigh's recent growth, it's still one of the lesser known capitals, and since the 50's the 'big tourism draw' RTP haven't done much to change that. I can just go on and on with SO many areas that Raleigh will never be able to compete with Jax, hell just by geography alone. Aquatic recreation, fishing, military, tourism, intermodal railroad, mortgage industry and on and on and on. You all are freaking kidding yourselves if you think Raleigh is more well known than Jax, no matter how many pages of pics, or random Jax slighting info that yall pull up. A city that hosted a Super Bowl is lesser known than the ubertropolis melting pot Raleigh, LOL
Quote from: I-10east on September 07, 2013, 09:33:06 PM
Despite Raleigh's recent growth, it's still one of the lesser known capitals
do you have data to support this?
^^^I'm so over this Raleigh thread. I think that Andy Griffith occasionally mentioned that city on the show, I'll give it that much.
Speaking of North Carolina cities, I'm currently boarding a plane in Charlotte. Nice airport.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2013, 10:06:44 PM
Speaking of North Carolina cities, I'm currently boarding a plane in Charlotte. Nice airport.
If yiu do not go outside.....the airport is just a pass through....when you step outside, you see it is all but dead
Didn't go outside. I just had to switch concourses. Lots of restaurants and shops in concourses D & C.
^ I agree, it is pretty awesome inside....and the aromas from all of the food establishments in the main atrium (between B & C) is intoxicating
Quote from: I-10east on September 07, 2013, 09:33:06 PM^^^Hooray!!! The Research Triangle Park, a high tech suburban uber-office complex is the center of focus for Raleigh. I'm sure that people outside of that field of research work are ALL-SO intrigued on what goes on in a hard to access security zone (for people who don't have any business there). I can't wait to test my luck and try to visit it; Hopefully I won't get arrested. This place just OOZES tourism interest....
Seriously, how old are you? RTP is hardly a tourist destination; it's a major jobs center, being the world's largest research park. Jacksonville, as well as most cities actually, would kill to have something like it. It is the economic focus of the Triangle, acting as sort of a CBD for the region, but downtown Raleigh is the center of focus for Raleigh.
QuoteDespite Raleigh's recent growth, it's still one of the lesser known capitals, and since the 50's the 'big tourism draw' RTP haven't done much to change that.
RTP is not a tourist draw. Smh. And what proof do you have that Raleigh is one of the "lesser known capitals"? Oh that's right; some obscure national weather maps you mentioned. Yep, that's all the objective proof needed.
QuoteI can just go on and on with SO many areas that Raleigh will never be able to compete with Jax, hell just by geography alone. Aquatic recreation, fishing, military, tourism, intermodal railroad, mortgage industry and on and on and on. You all are freaking kidding yourselves if you think Raleigh is more well known than Jax, no matter how many pages of pics, or random Jax slighting info that yall pull up. A city that hosted a Super Bowl is lesser known than the ubertropolis melting pot Raleigh, LOL
At this point, it doesn't even matter if Raleigh is more well-known that Jax or not. What really matters, and can't be disputed, is that it is more progressive than Jax, is more educated than Jax, is growing faster than Jax, and is experiencing more development than Jax. I don't see Jax competing with Raleigh in terms of higher education, college sports, hell even pro sports (at least the Hurricanes have won a championship), museums, knowledge-based jobs, downtown revitalization, etc.
You can keep downplaying Raleigh's success or go ahead and post another "London Paris New York Raleigh Hong Kong Tokyo" useless reply, but while you're doing that, Raleigh will continue blowing past Jax in categories that really matter when it comes to progress and quality of life. It's all pretty sad if you ask me.
^^^ *Sigh* I guess that I'll reply yet again, even though I really don't wanna....
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 10, 2013, 03:02:15 AM
Seriously, how old are you? RTP is hardly a tourist destination; it's a major jobs center, being the world's largest research park. Jacksonville, as well as most cities actually, would kill to have something like it. It is the economic focus of the Triangle, acting as sort of a CBD for the region, but downtown Raleigh is the center of focus for Raleigh.
RTP is not a tourist draw. Smh. And what proof do you have that Raleigh is one of the "lesser known capitals"? Oh that's right; some obscure national weather maps you mentioned. Yep, that's all the objective proof needed.
Man, sarcasm certainly finds a way of flying over your head. I was being sarcastic because you kept mentioning RTP soooo many times concerning Raleigh, it was becoming very tiresome; It might as well be a tourist attraction of interest with how often that you mentioned it. RTP been there since the fifties, at some point long time ago it's 'bragging factor' kinda lost some luster; It's like mentioning the three First Coast area Naval bases which provides alot of jobs here; Great for the city, but not exactly new news. Of course the elitists will find a way to make some dumb 'Jax doesn't have ANY white collar jobs' correlation with RTP there....
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 10, 2013, 03:02:15 AM
At this point, it doesn't even matter if Raleigh is more well-known that Jax or not. What really matters, and can't be disputed, is that it is more progressive than Jax, is more educated than Jax, is growing faster than Jax, and is experiencing more development than Jax. I don't see Jax competing with Raleigh in terms of higher education, college sports, hell even pro sports (at least the Hurricanes have won a championship), museums, knowledge-based jobs, downtown revitalization, etc.
You can keep downplaying Raleigh's success or go ahead and post another "London Paris New York Raleigh Hong Kong Tokyo" useless reply, but while you're doing that, Raleigh will continue blowing past Jax in categories that really matter when it comes to progress and quality of life. It's all pretty sad if you ask me.
Since light sarcasm isn't your thing, Ill decline with mentioning Raleigh with the likes of cities like Abu Dhabi, although maybe when you account for the "MJ Raleigh hype-factor" they are slightly comparable...okay, I remember no sarcasm!
Okay playing devil's advocate, compare Raleigh's area's higher learning to many other metros, and you'll find similar results to here in Jax, if you were to compare them. Just like RTP, those colleges have been there for a long time; There is nothing that Jax (or most major metros) can do anything to compete with that. Granted they might not be as distinguished or whatever, but it's not like we don't have ANY colleges in Jax, and in Northern Florida.
No matter if the Carolina Hurricanes won a championship or not, that team will never be able to compete with the revenue of a NFL team. I guess by your logic, that makes the Hurricanes more 'well known' than any team who haven't won a championship, so I don't understand your reasoning on that one. I like hockey, but it has a 'niche' fanbase, opposed to the far more mainstream fanbase of the NFL. If you look at my comments earlier, I admit that Raleigh is doing some progressive things right now, more than Jax, but the buck stops there; I refuse to act as if Raleigh is the cities that I sarcastically compared it to.
^^^Man, you're really grasping for straws, or should I say a debate. I was just replying to what krazeeboi said. No that entire post wasn't about the NFL.
I see we're back to NFL? I suppose the Jags are part of a far more important professional league, being that Raleigh "only" has an NHL team, but what about their 3 well known ACC football teams - NC State Wolfpack, Tarheels, and Duke? I thought college football was far more important in the south?? Not to mention Triangle area college basketball - unmatched rivalries and center of focus every season's March NCAA championship series.
To squash the NFL argument once and for all - the NFL is about the only thing that puts Jax on the map, but it costs the city lots of money, and the Jags, and conversely Jacksonville as a city, have been a national target for folks now for years, since the SuperBowl, garnering lots of negative press and attention. Not to mention the Jags are muy expensive. Not to mention the Jax SuperBowl is considered by most to be a blunder, not a wonder. Yes, the Jags organization is a positive, but it's not proven to bring jobs necessarily. It's merely a cultural amenity that any city Jacksonville's size SHOULD have (aka a professional sports team). We would have fared better for less money with a less expensive and more active professional sport, such as Baseball, Basketball, or even Hockey (Nashville has actually benefited from its hockey team and the arena is going off all the time, right in the thick of downtown). Nashville also has multiple teams while Jax has one, and they are similar in size still...the argument that Jax is sooo important that it has NFL is moot.
But, comparing universities and RTP to the NFL, I'd say the combo of the former does exponentially more for their local economy and for putting them on the map of CEOs and the college educated or college bound crowd. Which is more important to you?
Quote from: I-10east on September 10, 2013, 10:05:25 AM
Okay playing devil's advocate, compare Raleigh's area's higher learning to many other metros, and you'll find similar results to here in Jax, if you were to compare them. Just like RTP, those colleges have been there for a long time; There is nothing that Jax (or most major metros) can do anything to compete with that. Granted they might not be as distinguished or whatever, but it's not like we don't have ANY colleges in Jax, and in Northern Florida.
???Raleigh is basically up there with Boston, SF and Seattle in terms of educated populace. The other thing that can't be measured is that I think Jax might be around ~25% college educated and Raleigh is ~40-45% (which is very substantial difference), but no offense to Jax, there aren't that many with degrees from the top institutions in the country. I saw a report recently where the alum of the Ivy's matriculate, where the top engineering schools matriculate, where the top publics, and where the top privates, etc. Raleigh made the list quite a few times, and obviously cities like NYC, SF, Boston, and DC rounded out the top for basically every top tier university. Not only does Raleigh have far more people who have obtained a college degree (and also master's/PhD), but also has far more people who probably went to Harvard or Stanford or MIT. FL as a state lags in general.
And for the record, I don't even like Raleigh, but it's another city that is making something of itself and only has things to share. Jax is only in a position to learn because it hasn't really done one thing completely right yet. Raleigh can teach, no matter how bland it is. And given that it's a university heavy place, I'm sure teaching is one of its fortes.
Quote from: I-10east on September 10, 2013, 10:05:25 AM
Man, sarcasm certainly finds a way of flying over your head. I was being sarcastic because you kept mentioning RTP soooo many times concerning Raleigh, it was becoming very tiresome; It might as well be a tourist attraction of interest with how often that you mentioned it.
You must have me confused with someone else. Before the post you responded to, I mentioned RTP a grand total of
ONE time so I have no clue what you're talking about. If just one mention of the place rankles you THAT much, then that sounds personal on your part.
Sarcasm only works when it actually piggybacks off something that someone actually said.
QuoteRTP been there since the fifties, at some point long time ago it's 'bragging factor' kinda lost some luster; It's like mentioning the three First Coast area Naval bases which provides alot of jobs here; Great for the city, but not exactly new news. Of course the elitists will find a way to make some dumb 'Jax doesn't have ANY white collar jobs' correlation with RTP there....
RTP was there since the 50's but only started truly becoming a major economic driving force in the 80's. Raleigh's significant growth spurt began in the 90's due to it. But again, I only mentioned RTP once before that previous post in which you "sarcastically" referred to it is a tourist destination, so *I* certainly wasn't overhyping it.
QuoteOkay playing devil's advocate, compare Raleigh's area's higher learning to many other metros, and you'll find similar results to here in Jax, if you were to compare them. Just like RTP, those colleges have been there for a long time; There is nothing that Jax (or most major metros) can do anything to compete with that. Granted they might not be as distinguished or whatever, but it's not like we don't have ANY colleges in Jax, and in Northern Florida.
No one said there were NO colleges/universities in North Florida, but there are none of the level of Duke, UNC, and NC State at all.
QuoteIf you look at my comments earlier, I admit that Raleigh is doing some progressive things right now, more than Jax, but the buck stops there; I refuse to act as if Raleigh is the cities that I sarcastically compared it to.
And everything that has been mentioned so far plays into the more progressive things it's doing compared to Jax: higher learning, high-tech job growth, downtown development, etc. Your "sarcasm" is your way of flippantly dismissing Raleigh's progress compared to Jax. Jax has its advantages, even over Raleigh, but Raleigh has leveraged its advantages significantly more than Jax to the point where it's on the verge of overtaking Jax as its own MSA, without the rest of the Triangle, in terms of economy and growth.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 08, 2013, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2013, 10:06:44 PM
Speaking of North Carolina cities, I'm currently boarding a plane in Charlotte. Nice airport.
If yiu do not go outside.....the airport is just a pass through....when you step outside, you see it is all but dead
why would you go outside the airport?
Blah blah blah, Raleigh aint all that. Yall are trying way too hard to act as if Raleigh is some cosmopolitan city. Typical MJ....
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 10, 2013, 01:05:09 PM
You must have me confused with someone else. Before the post you responded to, I mentioned RTP a grand total of ONE time so I have no clue what you're talking about. If just one mention of the place rankles you THAT much, then that sounds personal on your part.
Wrong, you said it
TWO times, go back and check it if you don't believe me; But you're right though, you didn't say it that many times, I should have said 'everyone who is debating with me' and not only you. I never take anything 'personal' on this website. I can disagree with you on one subject, and agree with you on another with a ^^^+100; Even the people who are critical about me have no choice but to attest to that.
Quote from: I-10east on September 10, 2013, 03:09:15 PM
Blah blah blah, Raleigh aint all that. Yall are trying way too hard to act as if Raleigh is some cosmopolitan city. Typical MJ....
I haven't seen anyone say it is a cosmo city. Just that it outpaces JAX in a few key areas.
^^^So what, that works vice-versa too, not just some one way street with Raleigh being better in every faucet.
^^^Yeah tedium, as in tedious, perfect word; Just ignore the posts that I basically covered my ass on by admitting that Raleigh is currently doing some progressive things that Jax is not, then fifteen people act as if I didn't say that by keep repeating themselves, just look at the post that I just responded too. Talk about tedium...
Quote from: I-10east on September 10, 2013, 03:26:52 PMWrong, you said it TWO times, go back and check it if you don't believe me; But you're right though, you didn't say it that many times, I should have said 'everyone who is debating with me' and not only you. I never take anything 'personal' on this website. I can disagree with you on one subject, and agree with you on another with a ^^^+100; Even the people who are critical about me have no choice but to attest to that.
OK I missed the second mention, but even in that mention, I was attributing it more to Durham than Raleigh. At any rate, I wasn't making a huge deal out of it as you were implying, so that was pretty disingenuous on your part.
Quote^^^So what, that works vice-versa too, not just some one way street with Raleigh being better in every faucet.
Yes, but this is the "LEARNING FROM" forum, where cities are featured and key areas of progress highlighted in an attempt to demonstrate what Jacksonville can learn from them. So of course we're talking about the areas where Raleigh outshines Jacksonville BECAUSE THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT.
Quote from: krazeeboi on September 12, 2013, 03:00:23 AM
OK I missed the second mention, but even in that mention, I was attributing it more to Durham than Raleigh. At any rate, I wasn't making a huge deal out of it as you were implying, so that was pretty disingenuous on your part.
Damn, I could've sworn that I conceded that already, by saying 'YOU'RE RIGHT you didn't say it that many times' not unless I'm in The Twilight Zone....Even when I try to be humble and reasonable....Replies like that make you look very trivial, overly sensitive and unreasonable....
QuoteYes, but this is the "LEARNING FROM" forum, where cities are featured and key areas of progress highlighted in an attempt to demonstrate what Jacksonville can learn from them. So of course we're talking about the areas where Raleigh outshines Jacksonville BECAUSE THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT.
I TOTALLY AGREE. I don't know how many times that I have to mention Raleigh is being more progressive than Jax right now, apparently infinity. I just disagreed with some of the comments people said which IMO overly hyping Raleigh when comparing it to Jax, like someone said 'Raleigh is much more well known than Jax' and other things. I'll respect people's opinions though, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with them.
I still think that Raleigh is one of the lesser known capitals, but their profile obviously can't do anything but improve with time, considering the good things they are doing; I'm sure that some people will disagree with that. That's what is good about living in the USA, and not a communist country, having opinions.
Quote from: fsquid on September 10, 2013, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 08, 2013, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2013, 10:06:44 PM
Speaking of North Carolina cities, I'm currently boarding a plane in Charlotte. Nice airport.
If yiu do not go outside.....the airport is just a pass through....when you step outside, you see it is all but dead
why would you go outside the airport?
well I guess if you weren't just using the airport as a pass-through hub, you would go outside
Wow! A lot of people here sound jealous of Raleigh. I lived in Savannah for 4 years and went to Jacksonville a few times for concerts. Not a lot of stuff to do there. All of NC is very beautiful and Raleigh is right in the middle. We have great beaches and mountains within a 3 hour drive in either direction. Florida as a whole is pretty boring geographically and is basically a poor man's California. Sure, there's nice beaches but nothing else but elderly people. It's pretty boring. Also, Raleigh is a relatively short drive to most east coast urban centers. It's not about the size of the city, it's about the quality. Sorry, guys but your city is kind of a dead end.
I will say I do like Jacksonville's downtown riverfront. That is a nice attribute. The tiny train cars of the public transportation system downtown is kind of a joke, though. Raleigh is a very walkable city and is very easy to bike around. Our weather beats yours, too.
Quote from: RaleighResident on June 08, 2014, 09:30:40 PM
Wow! A lot of people here sound jealous of Raleigh.
Oh brother, here we go...Actually if you looked throughout the thread, people were defending Raleigh. I'll take credit for being the guy that thought many on here overrated Raleigh. While I was being sarcastic, I do realize that Raleigh is a very fast growing city. Raleigh has a lot of nice things going for it.
I just thought that some tried to make it out to be a unparalleled glistening beacon of entertainment which it isn't. Enough said from me, although that won't stop the old arguments that I will not respond to....
Cool stories, y'all.
Quote from: RaleighResident on June 08, 2014, 09:35:44 PM
I will say I do like Jacksonville's downtown riverfront. That is a nice attribute. The tiny train cars of the public transportation system downtown is kind of a joke, though. Raleigh is a very walkable city and is very easy to bike around. Our weather beats yours, too.
Firstly, I have to disagree that the weather in Raleigh beats Jacksonville. Raleigh gets far colder and icier - I never had to sit on a highway for five hours because there was an ice storm in Jacksonville and the city didn't get the salt trucks out before they released all of the schools and government employees. It gets just as hot - if not hotter - than Jacksonville, the difference being that Jacksonville stays warmer for longer. In Jacksonville, if it gets too hot and humid you can get respite by the river or the ocean.
I live in Jacksonville and have lived in Raleigh (2003-2005). I currently also visit downtown Raleigh frequently due to my husband's job. When I moved from Raleigh back to Jacksonville in 2005, Glenwood South was just starting to take off and they were just starting the work to open up Fayetteville Street in downtown proper. I remember thinking downtown was dead and questioned if their plans would work. From what I have witnessed over the past nine years, I can tell you that it definitely worked.
It may be because I spend *all* of my time downtown when I'm in Raleigh and in Jacksonville I live on the Southside and spend a lot of time in Riverside (meaning that I may not be seeing everything Jacksonville downtown has to offer) but I feel like downtown Raleigh is bigger, more advanced and has much more to offer than downtown Jacksonville. There are better and more residential options, restaurants, museums, hotels and entertainment. And there is a free bus (the R-Line) to loop through all of it, all day and into the night. I think the colleges and universities and corporate headquarters in and around downtown Raleigh provide a lot of demand for these things.
Because of my husband's job, we have considered moving back to Raleigh. The lower cost of living, lack of state income tax and weather keep us in Jacksonville, but I think Jacksonville could learn a lot from Raleigh.