Hundreds mourn Tasered Miami graffiti artist
By Zachary Fagenson
MIAMI BEACH, Florida | Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:09pm EDT
(Reuters) - Hundreds of friends and supporters of an 18-year-old graffiti artist who died after being shocked by a stun gun during a police chase in Miami Beach gathered on Saturday in a tearful rally at the site where he had been spray-painting.
Colombian-born Israel Hernandez-Llach died on Tuesday after police shocked him with a Taser as he ran away from officers who caught him spray-painting the wall of a shuttered McDonald's.
"He was a genius," said Lucy Rynka, 18, who graduated from Miami Beach Senior High School with Hernandez-Llach last spring. "He showed me how powerful art can be, how you can use color and design to relay a powerful message."
Miami Beach Police Chief Raymond Martinez has said that Hernandez-Llach was confronted by officers after vandalizing private property and ignored their commands to stop running.
Once in custody, Hernandez showed signs of medical distress and was pronounced dead soon after, Martinez said. A formal cause of death has not been established in the case pending toxicology results.
The Florida Department of Law Enforcement said on Friday it would conduct an independent review of the Miami Beach Police Department's investigation into the death of Hernandez-Llach, who was known as "Reefa" and whose work had appeared in some Miami art galleries.
Florida's state attorney and the medical examiner for Miami-Dade County are also reviewing the case, officials said.
Miami Beach police has come under scrutiny in recent years for a series of shootings and improper conduct, including the death of a 22-year-old man who was shot 16 times by police two years ago during a Memorial Day weekend hip-hop festival.
During the peaceful rally attended by around 400 people, some in the crowd booed and whistled at police officers standing nearby and shouted, "Whose streets? Our streets!"
The teen's father, Israel Hernandez-Bandera has called his son's death "an act of barbarism" and an "assassination of a young artist and photographer."
Jason W. Kreiss, an attorney representing the family, said Hernandez-Llach would likely not have been prosecuted over the spray-painting and would have probably faced a punishment of community service.
At the Saturday rally, the wall where Hernandez-Llach spray-painted was covered with his nickname and messages.
"The only thing I want everyone to remember is his goal was to have his art around the world," said Vivian Azalia, 18, told the crowd while fighting back tears. "I know he'd be happy with the support that's come from around the world and from the graffiti community."
(Editing by Kevin Gray and David Brunnstrom) http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/11/us-usa-florida-taser-idUSBRE97900A20130811
(http://www.twwlawfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/Taser3.jpg)
Use to exonerate police restraint and TASER use
Some civil-rights groups argue that excited delirium diagnoses are being used to absolve law enforcement of guilt in cases where alleged excessive force may have contributed to patient deaths.[19][20][21] In 2003, the NAACP argued that excited delirium is used to explain the deaths of minorities more often than whites.[21]
In Canada, the 2007 case of Robert Dziekanski received national attention and placed a spotlight on the use of tasers in police actions and the diagnosis of excited delirium. Police psychologist Mike Webster testified at a British Columbia inquiry into taser deaths that police have been "brainwashed" by Taser International to justify "ridiculously inappropriate" use of the electronic weapon. He called "excited delirium" a "dubious disorder" used by Taser International in its training of police.[22] In a 2008 report entitled An Independent Review of the Adoption and Use of Conducted Energy Weapons by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the authors argued that excited delirium should not be included in the operational manual for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police without formal approval after consultation with a mental-health-policy advisory body.[23]
A 2010 systematic review published in the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine argued that the symptoms associated with excited delirium likely posed a far greater medical risk than the use of tasers, and that it seems unlikely that taser use significantly exacerbates the symptoms of excited delirium.[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
Graffiti artist, or trespassing vandalist? drug dealer vs unlicensed pharmacist? Sad to see someone die, but where is the common sense?
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yes he should have.
Had he not been out vandalizing another person's property, even though it was vacant, he'd still be alive. Had he not run from the police and instead complied and taken the slap on the wrist his attorney alleges he would have received, he'd still be alive.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Should have? Would have? Could have? This young man is still dead not because he robbed someone or was drunk behind the wheel? "Colombian-born Israel Hernandez-Llach died on Tuesday after police shocked him with a Taser as he ran away from officers who caught him spray-painting the wall of a shuttered McDonald's." Look I'm not a fan of spray painting just about anything. And yes Israel shouldn't have run from the police. Now Israel is dead and I bet unless something illegal was in this young man's body? The Police will come out and say it was "excited delirium" and everything will go back to normal. :(
We had an incident of "excited delirium" near us a couple of months ago that fortunately turned out very differently.
We heard shouting and a crashing noise outside and looked out from our upstairs windows to see a young man wearing only underwear rolling around on the ground, waving his arms and shouting. He was sweating profusely and was very flushed. He had actually pulled a door in a nearby vacant house off it's hinges and broke the lock just by pulling the door knob.
JSO arrived very quickly as well as an ambulance. When he started to struggle with them, they backed away and just blocked his path by surrounding him from a few feet away. The officers talked with him very calmly for a while and when he got calmer, persuaded him to get on a gurney so that he could be taken to the hospital. As they rolled him away he was waving his arms and shouting that he loved the world.
I was very impressed with how the JSO officers handled the situation. They did not get violent with him or use their tasers. They seemed to understand his condition and how to deal with it.
Turned out later that he lived not far away and had taken some drug.
I had never heard of excited delirium before and had I not seen this incident it would have sounded fishy to me.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 12, 2013, 10:37:57 AM
We had an incident of "excited delirium" near us a couple of months ago that fortunately turned out very differently.
We heard shouting and a crashing noise outside and looked out from our upstairs windows to see a young man wearing only underwear rolling around on the ground, waving his arms and shouting. He was sweating profusely and was very flushed. He had actually pulled a door in a nearby vacant house off it's hinges and broke the lock just by pulling the door knob.
JSO arrived very quickly as well as an ambulance. When he started to struggle with them, they backed away and just blocked his path by surrounding him from a few feet away. The officers talked with him very calmly for a while and when he got calmer, persuaded him to get on a gurney so that he could be taken to the hospital. As they rolled him away he was waving his arms and shouting that he loved the world.
I was very impressed with how the JSO officers handled the situation. They did not get violent with him or use their tasers. They seemed to understand his condition and how to deal with it.
Turned out later that he lived not far away and had taken some drug.
I had never heard of excited delirium before and had I not seen this incident it would have sounded fishy to me.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=42827
05/11/2005
J. Brooks Terry
by J. Brooks Terry
Staff Writer
Tasers will likely resurface in the Jacksonville's Sheriff's Office though exactly when remains unknown.
Sheriff John Rutherford said that before the end of June his office would be one step closer to developing "the model policy for Taser deployment across the country."
Tasers are gun-like devices which fire wires that penetrate a person and temporarily immobilize them with a 50,000-volt punch — in effect, the officer hooks the suspect up to a battery.
JSO officers have been without Tasers since late February when, amid concerns from community activists about the weapon's power, Rutherford suspended their use. He said his office would take some time to study Tasers to better understand any possible medical emergencies that may arise as a result of making them part of the JSO arsenal.
JSO personnel director Rick Lewis and medical advisor Barry Steinberg are leading those efforts. Rutherford said a Shands medical team has also provided useful information.
Of the reported approximately 100 Taser-related casualties since 1999, Rutherford said other medical conditions were likely the primary cause of death.
"Amnesty International has said that 90-100 people have died, but that is false information," he said, speaking at a meeting of the Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce's Government Affairs Committee Tuesday. "Our research proves that's not happening."
Rather, he said, those fatalities could be attributed to a disorder known as Excited Delirium.
Rutherford said a person with ED suffers from a chemical imbalance, whether naturally or through drug use, and typically exhibits elevated body temperature and a high level of carbon dioxide in his system. A low blood PH level has also been noted, which indicates blood with a high level of acidity.
By better understanding that disorder, when a person with ED is taken into police custody, the chance of death can be greatly reduced.
"Proper protocol can be put in place that will insure that Tasers are the safest option out there and that we can minimize the chance of anyone dying in our custody," he said. "We can save lives with them and there have already been situations in the past where we have been able to do that."
Rutherford said that if Tasers, which cost the JSO nearly $2 million, were to return, they would primarily be used on adults. As a last resort, and only in lieu of "lethal force," would a student have to be subdued with the weapon.
However, a time table to "get them off the shelves" has not been identified. Ongoing town hall meetings will aide in making that decision, he said.
"We've reversed our stance on Tasers for now," Rutherford said. "But when I was elected I made the promise that I would make sure our officers are well equipped. Tasers are a part of that promise and I can assure you they are safe."
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 10:26:44 AM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
because thats a capital offense now?
Arent you the same person who thinks that health care from the government is tyrannical and oppressive?
So, you believe the officers set out to kill him? I assume that is what you meant by stating "capital offense." He broke the law then ran from the police. It angers me when folks like yourself attempt to paint the police officers in a bad light in these situations.
Have no idea what you are talking about in that second sentence.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 10:00:52 AM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yes he should have.
Had he not been out vandalizing another person's property, even though it was vacant, he'd still be alive. Had he not run from the police and instead complied and taken the slap on the wrist his attorney alleges he would have received, he'd still be alive.
This is among the seven dumbest posts that ive ever read on here. And thats saying a lot.
How so?
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 10:00:52 AM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yes he should have.
Had he not been out vandalizing another person's property, even though it was vacant, he'd still be alive. Had he not run from the police and instead complied and taken the slap on the wrist his attorney alleges he would have received, he'd still be alive.
This is among the seven dumbest posts that ive ever read on here. And thats saying a lot.
Why is that? Are those statements not true?
I'm not saying the whole thing is right or wrong, but if the guy wasn't spray painting someone else's property and didn't run from police he wouldn't be dead. You can't argue that, but I'm sure you will try.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 12, 2013, 11:22:29 AM
I'm not saying the whole thing is right or wrong, but if the guy wasn't spray painting someone else's property and didn't run from police he wouldn't be dead. You can't argue that, but I'm sure you will try.
so spraypainting and running are a capital offense?
This would apparently be your argument.
And its a pretty cut and dried issue with an actual answer.
There you go again. When did I ever say anything about a capital offense? How is that "apparently" my argument?
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 11:29:51 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 12, 2013, 11:28:09 AM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 12, 2013, 11:22:29 AM
I'm not saying the whole thing is right or wrong, but if the guy wasn't spray painting someone else's property and didn't run from police he wouldn't be dead. You can't argue that, but I'm sure you will try.
so spraypainting and running are a capital offense?
This would apparently be your argument.
And its a pretty cut and dried issue with an actual answer.
There you go again. When did I ever say anything about a capital offense? How is that "apparently" my argument?
really Clinton? Does every word of my sentence need to be sounded out and defined for you?
Dude, you crack me up.
Haha pot calling the kettle black.
lmao at capital offense. Stephen must be bored as he is trying awfully hard to stir something up in this thread. It is unfortunate that the dude died from being tased, but if he had simply obeyed the police officers, use of the taser would have never been considered. Regardless, my guess is that will not stop Stephen from calling everyone who disagrees with him stupid.
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:23:14 PM
But apparently you think that cops are also allowed to kill people for running or 'disobeying' them.
You are the one being stupid here, Stephen.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:46:24 PM
Perhaps I am. Would you care to explain what you meant by this comment?:
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yeah, I meant he should have obeyed the police and not run. How is that so difficult for you to understand?
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 12, 2013, 10:37:57 AM
We had an incident of "excited delirium" near us a couple of months ago that fortunately turned out very differently.
We heard shouting and a crashing noise outside and looked out from our upstairs windows to see a young man wearing only underwear rolling around on the ground, waving his arms and shouting. He was sweating profusely and was very flushed. He had actually pulled a door in a nearby vacant house off it's hinges and broke the lock just by pulling the door knob.
JSO arrived very quickly as well as an ambulance. When he started to struggle with them, they backed away and just blocked his path by surrounding him from a few feet away. The officers talked with him very calmly for a while and when he got calmer, persuaded him to get on a gurney so that he could be taken to the hospital. As they rolled him away he was waving his arms and shouting that he loved the world.
I was very impressed with how the JSO officers handled the situation. They did not get violent with him or use their tasers. They seemed to understand his condition and how to deal with it.
Turned out later that he lived not far away and had taken some drug.
I had never heard of excited delirium before and had I not seen this incident it would have sounded fishy to me.
It's refreshing to hear when our police handle situations with wisdom!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
The investigation will determine whether the use of the taser was warranted. There is an allegation that the kid charged at the cops
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57597515/fla-teen-dies-after-being-shocked-by-police/
If that is true then the use of the taser was justified.
The fact remains that had the kid not been vandalizing the building he'd still be alive today. Sure it was a misdemeanor but the cops saw him vandalizing the building so it is their job to arrest him.
There is risk with anything the police use, the taser is the safest available option they have. The goal is to reduce the risk to the officer without the officer having to use his firearm.
This thread is disheartening. It's a bit unbelievable, this level of cold heartedness.
How is this kid's death justifiable? Because he drew one letter on a wall? Because he ran from the police? So, kill him?
The opinions shared on this thread are the type of attitudes that scare me the most when I think on the future of our country (and our city). These positions demonstrate a distinct lack of a moral compass that is then justified, somehow, by worshipful attitudes towards murder, punishment and prison.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:46:24 PM
Perhaps I am. Would you care to explain what you meant by this comment?:
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yeah, I meant he should have obeyed the police and not run. How is that so difficult for you to understand?
why should he have done that?
So, in Stephen's world, its perfectly OK for criminals to flee from the police when they are caught violating the law.
Quote from: TheCat on August 12, 2013, 01:26:16 PM
This thread is disheartening. It's a bit unbelievable, this level of cold heartedness.
How is this kid's death justifiable? Because he drew one letter on a wall? Because he ran from the police? So, kill him?
The opinions shared on this thread are the type of attitudes that scare me the most when I think on the future of our country (and our city). These positions demonstrate a distinct lack of a moral compass that is then justified, somehow, by worshipful attitudes towards murder, punishment and prison.
You are confusing the issues. No one has sad that the kid dying is not a tragedy. No one. The police did not try to kill him (notwithstanding Stephen's attempt to paint this as some sort of cold blooded murder). They tried to apprehend a criminal fleeing from them. Unfortunately, it appears that the use of the taser, in this instance, may have caused the death of the criminal. The sad thing, and the point I have been trying to make, is that his death could have been avoided if he had simply not resisted the arrest.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:46:24 PM
Perhaps I am. Would you care to explain what you meant by this comment?:
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yeah, I meant he should have obeyed the police and not run. How is that so difficult for you to understand?
why should he have done that?
So, in Stephen's world, its perfectly OK for criminals to flee from the police when they are caught violating the law.
That doesnt even remotely sound like an answer to the question.
Frankly, I am not sure what question you are asking. Maybe this is the answer for which you are looking: do not resist arrest.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
Quote from: Apache on August 12, 2013, 01:32:08 PM
Quote from: TheCat on August 12, 2013, 01:26:16 PM
This thread is disheartening. It's a bit unbelievable, this level of cold heartedness.
How is this kid's death justifiable? Because he drew one letter on a wall? Because he ran from the police? So, kill him?
The opinions shared on this thread are the type of attitudes that scare me the most when I think on the future of our country (and our city). These positions demonstrate a distinct lack of a moral compass that is then justified, somehow, by worshipful attitudes towards murder, punishment and prison.
I don't get the impression anyone is saying that the death is justified. I highly doubt cops use tasers with the intent to kill. I think people are saying it was the kids choice to run as opposed to comply with the officers request. As someone mentioned, the cops job is to try to apprehend someone the see commuting a crime. Which is what they tried to do with a device that is not intended to kill someone.
I would disagree with you here, apache.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yep, Stephen trying too hard.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 01:36:45 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 01:32:34 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 12:46:24 PM
Perhaps I am. Would you care to explain what you meant by this comment?:
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 12, 2013, 09:38:45 AM
Should have tried obeying the police officers.
Yeah, I meant he should have obeyed the police and not run. How is that so difficult for you to understand?
why should he have done that?
So, in Stephen's world, its perfectly OK for criminals to flee from the police when they are caught violating the law.
That doesnt even remotely sound like an answer to the question.
Frankly, I am not sure what question you are asking. Maybe this is the answer for which you are looking: do not resist arrest.
or what?
Or sometimes you may get tased.
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 01:41:50 PM
so then cops do have the right to kill you?
I'm just going to stop now. Let me know when you want to have a sincere discussion that does not involve gross simplification of an issue.
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
The investigation will determine whether the use of the taser was warranted. There is an allegation that the kid charged at the cops
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57597515/fla-teen-dies-after-being-shocked-by-police/
If that is true then the use of the taser was justified.
The fact remains that had the kid not been vandalizing the building he'd still be alive today. Sure it was a misdemeanor but the cops saw him vandalizing the building so it is their job to arrest him.
There is risk with anything the police use, the taser is the safest available option they have. The goal is to reduce the risk to the officer without the officer having to use his firearm.
I've never been tased and hope I never have to. However, I've always been under the impression that they aren't intended to kill people. Am I wrong in this assessment?
Its ridiculous that anyone would think that the police were trying to kill the vandal by using a Taser on him. Tasers have been used on tens of thousands people, including every cop that carries one. People also die from pepper spray. The Justice Department has documented hundreds of deaths by pepper spray. A few years ago, the ACLU pressed California's Supreme Court to classify pepper-spray as dangerous and cruel, likening it to "a kind of chemical cattle prod on nonviolent demonstrators resisting arrest." The organization further claimed that its use "constitutes excessive force and violates the Constitution."
Are we supposed to take pepper spray away from cops, and civilians?
The bottom line is when you do a crime, you must be prepared to face the consequences, even those unintended. I remember several years ago, police were chasing a graffiti "artist" (vandal) in New York. While being chased, he ran in front of a cab and was killed. Of course, people blamed the police. No blame put on the vandal.
I know that those of the liberal bent (and I do mean bent) don't feel that anyone needs to be responsible for anything. Its never their fault. Its circumstances, a lousy childhood, a mental disorder, someone bullied them, and on and on and on.
Maybe liberals will win. Maybe responsibility will be a thing of the past and anyone suggesting that people take responsibility for their actions will be sanctioned and ostracized. After all, the police could have just said, "Won't you please stop and come with us? We know its not your fault. You are just expressing yourself on someone else's property. They should appreciate your art. No one is angry with you."
I'm sure he would have quietly joined the police in the back of their squad car.
You damn liberals!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 04:41:59 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
The investigation will determine whether the use of the taser was warranted. There is an allegation that the kid charged at the cops
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57597515/fla-teen-dies-after-being-shocked-by-police/
If that is true then the use of the taser was justified.
The fact remains that had the kid not been vandalizing the building he'd still be alive today. Sure it was a misdemeanor but the cops saw him vandalizing the building so it is their job to arrest him.
There is risk with anything the police use, the taser is the safest available option they have. The goal is to reduce the risk to the officer without the officer having to use his firearm.
I've never been tased and hope I never have to. However, I've always been under the impression that they aren't intended to kill people. Am I wrong in this assessment?
They aren't intended to kill people, but there is always the possibility that a taser could kill someone if they are using certain drugs or have a medical condition that they are unaware of and could not be detected without a through examination.
I have not been tazed either, but I do know police and state troopers who have been. It is not a pleasant experience.
Well said LAE. I totally agree with everything that you said. I never understood why so many people are so sympathetic to criminals. I was young and dumb once, and did stupid stuff like tagging, but I always knew the potential of facing the consequences for my actions.
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 07:18:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 04:41:59 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
The investigation will determine whether the use of the taser was warranted. There is an allegation that the kid charged at the cops
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57597515/fla-teen-dies-after-being-shocked-by-police/
If that is true then the use of the taser was justified.
The fact remains that had the kid not been vandalizing the building he'd still be alive today. Sure it was a misdemeanor but the cops saw him vandalizing the building so it is their job to arrest him.
There is risk with anything the police use, the taser is the safest available option they have. The goal is to reduce the risk to the officer without the officer having to use his firearm.
I've never been tased and hope I never have to. However, I've always been under the impression that they aren't intended to kill people. Am I wrong in this assessment?
They aren't intended to kill people, but there is always the possibility that a taser could kill someone if they are using certain drugs or have a medical condition that they are unaware of and could not be detected without a through examination.
I have not been tazed either, but I do know police and state troopers who have been. It is not a pleasant experience.
(but I do know police and state troopers who have been. It is not a pleasant experience) (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/images/05118132455_taser1.jpg) Here is Sheriff Rutherford being tased? But Herein lies the Problem he is in great physical and mental shape and two officers were on each side of his body so when he was hit by the "Taser Probes" it hurt but he was taken down to the floor. So was the "Tasered Miami graffiti artist" helped to the ground after he was hit by the Taser Probes? And was he in good physical and mental shape?
Here is a First Coast News back in Jan 19th 2005 they did a story on Sheriff Rutherford.
By Roger Weeder First Coast News JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Sheriff John Rutherford tried to put fears to rest over tasers in schools Tuesday. Sheriff Rutherford personally demonstrated how a taser works at the training academy on the Northside. Rutherford, 52, took a taser hit in the back and fell to the floor. Afterwards, the sheriff said, "As you can see, it's completely disabling as soon as the charge is over, I'm fine." The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is in the process of ordering 1800 tasers that will be used by officers on the street and in Duval County schools. School resource officers will carry the tasers in schools beginning this fall. The $900 gun shoots an electronic charge to disable a suspect for a few seconds and give officers time to make an arrest. "It doesn't scramble your brain. I could hear what's going on. I could see if I wanted to open my eyes," said Sheriff Rutherford. The sheriff says the taser will not be used on anyone who is frail, or on someone who is very young or very old. Procedures also prohibit officers from firing an electrical charge at at pregnant woman, anyone holding a child, driving a car or standing near water. Officers will be trained to used the tasers during the course of the next year. The training course is for eight hours and requires to officer to be zapped by the gun. School resource officers in middle and high schools will be trained this summer. They will be equipped with tasers in the fall. School officials have no say in how police officers are armed in the schools. Sheriff Rutherford says he will work with schools to answers questions or concerns that parents might have.
First Coast News
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=30970
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 08:48:25 PM
This isnt really a liberal/conservative site, LAE.
And this is a conservative issue in any case. Unless youve forgotten Janet Reno and the tragedy at Waco.
conservative issue? Please explain
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 07:18:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 04:41:59 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 12, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
I really don't see what all the commotion is over this (on whether the kid committed a criminal act or not). The general lesson to take away from this is to not vandalize property that isn't yours. Everything else could have been avoided by that simple act.
With that said, is using a taser in a situation like this necessary? Are tasers supposed to be killing people?
The investigation will determine whether the use of the taser was warranted. There is an allegation that the kid charged at the cops
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57597515/fla-teen-dies-after-being-shocked-by-police/
If that is true then the use of the taser was justified.
The fact remains that had the kid not been vandalizing the building he'd still be alive today. Sure it was a misdemeanor but the cops saw him vandalizing the building so it is their job to arrest him.
There is risk with anything the police use, the taser is the safest available option they have. The goal is to reduce the risk to the officer without the officer having to use his firearm.
I've never been tased and hope I never have to. However, I've always been under the impression that they aren't intended to kill people. Am I wrong in this assessment?
They aren't intended to kill people, but there is always the possibility that a taser could kill someone if they are using certain drugs or have a medical condition that they are unaware of and could not be detected without a through examination.
I have not been tazed either, but I do know police and state troopers who have been. It is not a pleasant experience.
Thanks. I didn't know and was just wondering in general.
StephenDare!,
Please advise us how you would have handled this arrest as the Police Officer. Please advise us why tazing a suspect is the same as "killing" said suspect.
Thanks in advance.
NotNow
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 09:52:57 PM
Quote from: NotNow on August 12, 2013, 09:48:01 PM
StephenDare!,
Please advise us how you would have handled this arrest as the Police Officer. Please advise us why tazing a suspect is the same as "killing" said suspect.
Thanks in advance.
NotNow
did the suspect die? If the person shooting him with the taser were not a cop, would you claim that the armed person did not 'kill' the victim? If you do think this, would the states attorney agree with you that no one got killed?
Did McDonald's (the actual landowner, and therefore the actual person with legal standing to press charges in the first place) actually complain?
Did the officer make the department decision to use a weapon that has been medically proven to cause deaths in situations not involving law enforcement?
It has nothing to do with the police officer.
Are all of you just still engaging in your usual very disturbing death porn fantasies? Or did you stop and think about any of the issues other than some cop got to kill a grafitti artist?
So you really have no idea what to do then, do you? Except maybe call McDonalds, cause you know...permission.
And you really don't know anything at all about ECD's either, do you? The statistics are available online. Do your research.
Of course, it's really not your fault. You are just ignorant of the facts. You have never acted in such a situation. You have never arrested anyone. You have never fired an ECD, or been shot by one. You are not even aware of the advantages of the weapon.
And in your ignorance, you rely on your usual personal insults. Exactly what are you accusing me of by stating that I have "death porn fantasies" or "that some cop "got" to kill a grafitti artist"? I'll give you a break for not knowing anything about ECD's. But you are our of line and violating your own rules with the "death porn fantasies" crap.
As for the officer that attempted to apprehend the "grafitti artist", how do you justify saying something like "got" to kill someone? Again, you have obviously never been in this position. Police operate in an uncontrolled environment. That means "your on your own and you could get killed doing this". This officer used the safest tool that he/she had available according to current stats. He/she could have used hands/fists, batons, or spray as well (and no one would have been there to "catch" the suspect before he fell. No one is there in the street to "catch" the officer either.) It is terrible that the suspect died during the arrest. We do not even have the medical examiner's report yet, but you feel justified in stating that "the officer killed the "grafitti artist". Again, you have obviously never been in this position, or had to help a young officer who finds him/herself in the same position. I suppose that makes you either ignorant of how officers deal with such a result, or an insensitive jerk.
There will always be criminals. There will always be police that apprehend them. There will always be unpleasantness and unforetold circumstances in doing so. And I suppose there will always be some that will criticize what they do not completely understand.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt quotes (American 26th US President (1901-09), 1858-1919)
Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2013, 10:38:11 PM
Quote from: NotNow on August 12, 2013, 10:26:51 PM
And in your ignorance, you rely on your usual personal insults. Exactly what are you accusing me of by stating that I have "death porn fantasies" or "that some cop "got" to kill a grafitti artist"? I'll give you a break for not knowing anything about ECD's. But you are our of line and violating your own rules with the "death porn fantasies" crap.
I have actually been bandying about with a couple of the posters for the better part of the day.
I can certainly see how you would think I was referring to yourself with the Death Porn Fantasies, and having read your posts for several years, I believe this would be a very insulting and inaccurate way to describe you. I was referring to several others, not yourself, my apologies for the clumsy wording which made you believe otherwise.
Accepted. Thank you.