LaVilla Shotgun Houses On Verge Of Being Demolished?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520608920_MTEu2-M.jpg)
Not much is left of Florida's first major urban black neighborhood. Years of urban renewal and haphazard demolition have resulted in a major loss to Jacksonville's cultural heritage and downtown's vibrancy. Now, with an effort to preserve the area's last three shotgun houses drawing opposition from council members, more of LaVilla's history disappear.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-lavilla-shotgun-houses-on-verge-of-being-demolished
Besides Redman (to no one's surprise), what other Council members are in favor of tearing these down?
Will councilman Redman ever stop making himself into a fool with no heart..what a fucking redneck idiot.
Redman. One of the reasons Jacksonville is so so far behind.
The city spent over $100,000.00 to move those houses to that location. Demolishing them is saying it's just fine to have wasted the money to move them to begin with. When does this city ever stop getting stuck on stupid? As bad as they look, they can be saved and they should be. They represent an integral part of what was the fabric of LaVilla.
The problem isn't Redman.The problem is the idiots who keep voting for him. I am going to start paying as much attention to local races as I do to national races.
I've always felt local politics are way more important than national. Leadership is typically reflective of the general population that willingly puts them into office.
As for the shotguns, it's kind of ironic that the OED solicits an RFP for the Sax site requiring proposals to consider LaVilla's history and heritage, yet at the same time, we're seriously considering not preserving the last three 100-year-old shotguns still standing (mind you, we've already taken out thousands). This was Florida's first urban black neighborhood and one of national historic significance. The first blues song recorded in America happened right on this block. This type of house represents what national figures from (or who spent a considerable amount of time here) Jax, such as James Weldon Johnson, Zora Neale Hurston, Philip Randolph, Ray Charles, etc. resided in. Their grouping also provides a visual glimpse into what Jacksonville's urban residential built environment looked like during a time when if you were black, the law would not allow you to live in areas we treasure today, such as Springfield, San Marco, and Riverside/Avondale.
In reality, this issue shouldn't even be a debate. Every building still standing (you could probably count them on your fingers now) representing the true authenticity of LaVilla should be landmarked, ASAP. Instead of discussing the pros and cons of preserving these structures, the conversation should be centered around rebuilding this urban environment in a manner that integrates new with the old.
Quote from: avonjax on August 02, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
Redman. One of the reasons Jacksonville is so so far behind.
while some of the time Redman is very not helpful, he is the sttrong bike advocate on Council.
I agree, lakelander. I can't believe it's even open to debate as so much of this area is gone. FOREVER.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 02, 2013, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: avonjax on August 02, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
Redman. One of the reasons Jacksonville is so so far behind.
while some of the time Redman is very not helpful, he is the sttrong bike advocate on Council.
Which gets echoed on this forum all the time, but never with any examples to back that claim up. He let the intersections at Laura St turn into a nightmare for bikers (and cars alike) in his territory and under his watch.
His mind could proabably be changed if properly persuaded. He will listen.
I just remembered, I have a random collection of old Jacksonville images on my phone, from various documents I've researched in the past. Here are a few from the LaVilla area.
A row of shotguns in Hansontown (north side of State Street). This area ended up being demolished for an urban renewal project that ultimately never came to fruition. Definitely, not Klutho or Riverside but still a community and critical component of Jacksonville's historical makeup.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Misc-Black-Neighborhoods-In/i-wRD9LBL/0/XL/IMG_20130313_123224-XL.jpg)
I believe this is Davis Street sometime in the late 60s. Those who are good with cars may be able to pinpoint the exact era by the model of the vehicles on the street. Davis Street was a corridor one would enter the city from the Lem Turner area before the construction of I-95.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Misc-Black-Neighborhoods-In/i-ssHLztr/0/XL/IMG_20130313_123154-XL.jpg)
This is a set of old bordellos near the intersection of Houston and Davis.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Misc-Black-Neighborhoods-In/i-qLcJXLp/0/M/IMG_20120718_162640-M.jpg)
Concept of the failed urban renewal plan that took out LaVilla north of Beaver Street and Sugar Hill.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Misc-Black-Neighborhoods-In/i-DzSvVt7/0/XL/IMG_20130313_123054-XL.jpg)
While I'm at it, here's a failed redevelopment concept of neighboring Brooklyn from the 1980s.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Misc-Black-Neighborhoods-In/i-xJXP5mv/0/L/IMG_20120717_144756-L.jpg)
Look at that, another failed plan.
it's a shame for the localized demolition and a shame that nothing materialized after, but i have to say that's it's probably a good thing that a concentration of "public housing" as shown in second to last pic didn't happen. it's a 50's and 60's housing experiment that was shown to be a complete failure on many levels.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2013, 10:56:29 AM
...
A row of shotguns in Hansontown (north side of State Street). This area ended up being demolished for an urban renewal project that ultimately never came to fruition. Definitely, not Klutho or Riverside but still a community and critical component of Jacksonville's historical makeup.
Brooklyn was also once a community - now forgotten history. Thanks for the photos and a quality comment, Lake.
It would be very nice if those houses could be rehabbed and updated. This town needs to grow up and realize that it is the 21st Century.
Quote from: Josh on August 02, 2013, 10:41:22 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 02, 2013, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: avonjax on August 02, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
Redman. One of the reasons Jacksonville is so so far behind.
while some of the time Redman is very not helpful, he is the sttrong bike advocate on Council.
Which gets echoed on this forum all the time, but never with any examples to back that claim up. He let the intersections at Laura St turn into a nightmare for bikers (and cars alike) in his territory and under his watch.
a few examples
1. New Context Sensitive Streets policy that will be implemented by COJ very soon
2. Advocates for COJ Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee (BPAC)
3. Support of a dedicated full-time bike/ped professional in the Planning Department (also starting very soon)
4. Southbank Riverwalk rehab (Redman pushed for this after falling while riding his bike on this)
5. One of only 4 Council members that were strongly opposed to extending the Mobility fee moratorium
And, Redman regularly attends BPAC meetings...as well asthe JAX2025 bike/ped taskl force meeting this week ...don't underestimate the value of having elected officials in the room.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 02, 2013, 12:07:49 PM
1. New Context Sensitive Streets policy that will be implemented by COJ very soon
2. Advocates fro COJ Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee (BPAC)
3. Support of a dedicated full-time bike/ped professional in the Planning Department (also starting very soon)
You are describing Lori Boyer. Just b/c Redman is present at these meetings doesn't mean he is 'spearheading' anything.
Actually as a member of the BPAC, I would like to say that CM Redman attends every meeting and gives good advice and help where he can. At each of the meetings of the Context Sensitive streets committee along with the other council members and Chairwoman Boyer his questions were thoughtful and his advocacy for bicycle and pedestrian design on our streets was notable.
The obliteration of LaVilla breaks my heart. I can hardly stand to look at the pictures. Last month the HPC (on request of the mayor) voted to landmark the James Weldon & John Rosamond Johnson birth site at the northwest corner of N. Lee Street and Houston Street. This is a city owned parcel. Important to note: SITE. It's just a vacant lot. The whole time I heard the mayor's representative speak and the commission ask questions I kept saying under my breath (you demolished this home, it's a vacant lot, used as a parking lot all because of you, (City of Jax.) That said, very happy that (hopefully) something will be erected in honor of these men on the site. Anyone know what the mayor's position is on the last remaining LaVilla shotguns? He supported landmarking this vacant lot, one would think three last houses would be important.
I agree with Lake that this shouldn't even be a debate. Jacksonville bites the big one in regards to preservation and the embracing of history. It's absolutely embarrassing.
Its too bad we arent talking about the demolition of that ugly first baptist church and its intrusive lighthouse...i wonder how redman would like that...and just because he shows up doesnt mean hes getting anything done that will have a positive affect on the city...
Quote from: Garden guy on August 02, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
Its too bad we arent talking about the demolition of that ugly first baptist church and its intrusive lighthouse...i wonder how redman would like that...and just because he shows up doesnt mean hes getting anything done that will have a positive affect on the city...
Garden Guy why don't you visit the First Baptist Church so you can let go of your anger. But if you don't come God still loves you. :)
Quote from: m74reeves on August 02, 2013, 11:20:48 AM
it's a shame for the localized demolition and a shame that nothing materialized after, but i have to say that's it's probably a good thing that a concentration of "public housing" as shown in second to last pic didn't happen. it's a 50's and 60's housing experiment that was shown to be a complete failure on many levels.
Actually, that Public Housing project was already there. It has since been torn down. Blodgett Homes or something like that was the name.
Tear it all down.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 02, 2013, 04:20:54 PM
Actually, that Public Housing project was already there. It has since been torn down. Blodgett Homes or something like that was the name.
appreciate the clarification. wonder if it had high vacancies when it was demo'ed or if people were displaced?
Yes, Blodgett Homes was the first urban renewal project in that area and residences were forced out. The ideal of creating a super dense environment of poverty and despair ended up in utter failure.
The triangular area in the middle of this aerial is the section of Hansontown that was demolished for Blodgett Homes. The open area with the track was Wilder Park. The city's first branch public library opened in the park. The park and Wilder Park Library were destroyed for the construction of what is now the I-95/Kings Road interchange. Something similar was proposed for Riverside Park but residents there had more political influence with city hall to keep it from happening.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/481258391_Effmn-M.jpg)
You can see Blodgett Homes serving as the divider between LaVilla and Sugar Hill in this historic aerial.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/481258398_XJ3nS-600x10000.jpg)
How residents were forced out of their neighborhood in the 1960s to make way for "progress."
QuoteMore than 75 percent of the families were relocated outside the neighborhood after their homes were demolished in the late 1960s by the city Department of Housing and Urban Development. The city threatened residents who refused to move by forcing them to remodel their homes and buy more property. Residents whose homes sat on 25-foot-wide lots had to buy additional property to meet the new 50-foot requirement.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-lost-jacksonville-sugar-hill
Remember, we're talking about neighborhoods that were as dense as districts found in northern and midwestern cities. Nearly all of the lots were 25' or less in street frontage and occupied by a working class population. Not many, if any, could immediately afford to purchase an adjacent 25' lot (which would have had another residence sitting on it) or remodel their homes. It seems the same is happening today with the code enforcement/demolition issue in areas like Durkeeville.
The Shotgun Houses to which these folks are referring were actually put up with Federal grants dating back to the 1880s when a house with a sanitary privy out back was considered adequate housing, A lot of it was on the back side of Brooklyn and all the way to the east side of the old Ritz Theatre. By the 1980' they were just not maintainable. Off of Riverside , there is one that has been rebuilt and maintained. For what reason would they be preserved, and who would want to live in them It sounds great to preserve, but with preservation comes maintenance and vandalism. The city cannot maintain what it owns now, how can they add more? Best to do a photo essay and location map of where they were and put that in the vaults of the Historical Society and the library.
Our vaults are already bursting out the seems with photo essays of what was. I'm not sure anyone is advocating adding more. There's only three left in the neighborhood. Perhaps the discussion about their future taking place should start to revolve around issuing an RFP to solicit potential uses for them? Diane would know, but I'm not sure if this was ever done.
No RFP was presented because there was a tug-o-war over preservation funds and a certain fraternity wanting to keep control of the properties. I think a few arguments can be made. One is to use funds that would go to demolish to "mothball" much like we saw in the structure on the Springfield thread. The other would be to go ahead and restore the buildings. In spite of the claims of financial difficulties, there is more than enough funding in the City designated for Historic Preservation to accomplish this effort. A third would be to offer the buildings for sale for $10.00 but require an RFP for the intended use along with proof of finances to complete the project and a contract declaring the same.
At the beginning of the Peyton administration I had worked with LaVilla School of the Arts who wanted one structure to use as a student run gallery and store. The second I had approached Nat Glover about to be used as a museum to highlight the original all Black Police department and as a living museum to his home years ago on Minnie Street. At the time he was willing to meet with and mentor kids in the areas of education and law enforcement. The other was being discussed as a small coffee/ice cream shop to serve a park to be located next to the houses. It took me 10 years to fight for and get the Brewster Hospital restored with the help of Glorious Johnson. At the time I originally tried to get this through for the houses, the buildings were not eligible for historic designation or State restoration funding. It is my understanding that Joel in Preservation is working on a new document for the homes preservation status and that the homes are now old enough to fall under historic guidelines. Mitch McDaniels who did the work on the Brewster Restoration had offered a fee estimation for repairs back then as well. The city remained deaf to his offer.
Here is the video my eldest son Justin made for me in support of Brewster, LaVilla and the shotgun houses. This was back when the city had a big ole story on it's website talking about a "River City Renaissance" with an "Emerald Necklace" which was to be a series of parks in the area connecting the Ritz and historic structures touting the area as the "Harlem of the South". It featured pictures of tourists in horse drawn buggies with a historic, well landscaped community. This is what was promised when the area was ruthlessly destroyed. The other thing that I will never get over was digging out the actual documents of the homes that were designated as "blighted". The public was told that almost all the structures in the community were unsound. It turned out that the number of those called unsound were not even a third of the existing structures.
Ennis, maybe you will embed the video? Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24Gix5dDCU
Last year the Brewster was officially designated with a large plaque out front. Below you will see "The Mayor Presents!" lol He lauded the importance of this historic structure and the great value in preserving what remains of LaVilla. Interestingly he never mentioned my name once and it was only the refusal of the Brewster Alumni Nurses to attend the event that forced an invite for me on that day. After the presentation I approached a very nervous Mayor Brown and thanked him for the flowery words about the preservation of the building and LaVilla and told him I expected him to do more to save what remained. He then told me "He would do everything within his power to see Brewster finished and opened and action be taken to save the other structures". I am still waiting to see what "everything" means to this man. So far, not much when it comes to the Harlem of the South nor when it comes to this community which is integral to who and what Jacksonville was and is. (pardon the vent here folks, but I sometimes wonder just how well Alvin Brown reps "all" of Jacksonville. I know the folks in District 9 do.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTatxQE0i4s
Of course. It's kind of funny that we can draw an imaginary circle around a certain area of town and say that ALL the structures are unsalvageable. Here's some more LaVilla demo images.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-demolition2-library.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-demolition-library.jpg)
I have several pics you haven't seen of the "derelict" structures Ennis which were in essence beautiful and grand structures in need of nothing much more than life returning to them. The structures were sound in and out. This thread has opened up a lot of emotion in me as what happened in La Villa demonstrated then and now the value of a community based upon the "race" of those who gave it birth and the lies that officials and politicians will tell in order to meet private agendas. One of the saddest parts of the story for me back then was finding out that certain Black officials and people of influence were themselves a party to the destruction and worked hand and hand with both White and Black developers to get them downtown land and properties very, very cheaply. I spent month's walking through LaVilla and visiting every remaining home, business and commercial entity in the community to see what they had been promised and found out the depth of this deception. Alvin Brown needs to step up and make sure these buildings are saved. Does he care? If it impacts his politics he does, but remember he is not from Jacksonville but rather from Buford, S.C.. He has no real history here, just personal/political interests.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 02, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
I have several pics you haven't seen of the "derelict" structures Ennis which were in essence beautiful and grand structures in need of nothing much more than life returning to them. The structures were sound in and out. This thread has opened up a lot of emotion in me as what happened in La Villa demonstrated then and now the value of a community based upon the "race" of those who gave it birth and the lies that officials and politicians will tell in order to meet private agendas. One of the saddest parts of the story for me back then was finding out that certain Black officials and people of influence were themselves a party to the destruction and worked hand and hand with both White and Black developers to get them downtown land and properties very, very cheaply. I spent month's walking through LaVilla and visiting every remaining home, business and commercial entity in the community to see what they had been promised and found out the depth of this deception. Alvin Brown needs to step up and make sure these buildings are saved. Does he care? If it impacts his politics he does, but remember he is not from Jacksonville but rather from Buford, S.C.. He has no real history here, just personal/political interests.
Brown doesn't care, that much is obvious. Just another good ol boy puppet of the special interest groups that's plagued this city for decades. And the results are always the same. They're like locusts in many ways. Come in & squeeze every drop out of the city you can, decimate it beyond repair leaving it a shell of its former self with an outward growth model that causes budget & infrastructure issues down the line, then move on to the next one.
If they would have just left these neighborhoods alone then downtown would be in a hell of a lot better shape than it is today. But that's of course not their concern.
Quote from: peestandingup on August 02, 2013, 07:10:18 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 02, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
I have several pics you haven't seen of the "derelict" structures Ennis which were in essence beautiful and grand structures in need of nothing much more than life returning to them. The structures were sound in and out. This thread has opened up a lot of emotion in me as what happened in La Villa demonstrated then and now the value of a community based upon the "race" of those who gave it birth and the lies that officials and politicians will tell in order to meet private agendas. One of the saddest parts of the story for me back then was finding out that certain Black officials and people of influence were themselves a party to the destruction and worked hand and hand with both White and Black developers to get them downtown land and properties very, very cheaply. I spent month's walking through LaVilla and visiting every remaining home, business and commercial entity in the community to see what they had been promised and found out the depth of this deception. Alvin Brown needs to step up and make sure these buildings are saved. Does he care? If it impacts his politics he does, but remember he is not from Jacksonville but rather from Buford, S.C.. He has no real history here, just personal/political interests.
Brown doesn't care, that much is obvious. Just another good ol boy puppet of the special interest groups that's plagued this city for decades. And the results are always the same. They're like locusts in many ways. Come in & squeeze every drop out of the city you can, decimate it beyond repair leaving it a shell of its former self with an outward growth model that causes budget & infrastructure issues down the line, then move on to the next one.
If they would have just left these neighborhoods alone then downtown would be in a hell of a lot better shape than it is today. But that's of course not their concern.
You hit that nail on the head but good! I only hope that over time and by giving real examples, interested voters may take greater heed of things that are said and done by those wanting political office and the who and what is the agenda of the person vying for office. It's one thing to talk a good game while running for office and another thing entirely to faithfully serve for the majority as opposed to a specific group who is seen as important via what they can give or do for a particular politician.
LaVilla has been in need of critical care for years and years now. I know many who love the history there had hoped that Brown would step up to preserve the relics of this important district. That simply has not happened and many folks are very unhappy about that. I mean seriously, out of hundreds and hundreds of these simple homes, three are left and those had to be transported in order to save them? It is truly a sorry statement about our city and it's leadership. Brown meanwhile, in spite of his claims to do everything in his power has done "nothing". Perhaps the real "get" here is the dawning reality that either he has no real power to make the area better or he lacks the desire and political will to move to restore. The question is why? The same can be asked of Warren Jones whose district this was when much of the devastation happened to begin with and who is again the person representing LaVilla today.
very very sad
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 02, 2013, 05:29:50 PM
Here is the video my eldest son Justin made for me in support of Brewster, LaVilla and the shotgun houses. This was back when the city had a big ole story on it's website talking about a "River City Renaissance" with an "Emerald Necklace" which was to be a series of parks in the area connecting the Ritz and historic structures touting the area as the "Harlem of the South". It featured pictures of tourists in horse drawn buggies with a historic, well landscaped community. This is what was promised when the area was ruthlessly destroyed. The other thing that I will never get over was digging out the actual documents of the homes that were designated as "blighted". The public was told that almost all the structures in the community were unsound. It turned out that the number of those called unsound were not even a third of the existing structures.
Ennis, maybe you will embed the video? Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24Gix5dDCU
http://www.youtube.com/v/T24Gix5dDCU?hl=en_US&version=3&rel=0
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 02, 2013, 05:38:26 PM
Last year the Brewster was officially designated with a large plaque out front. Below you will see "The Mayor Presents!" lol He lauded the importance of this historic structure and the great value in preserving what remains of LaVilla. Interestingly he never mentioned my name once and it was only the refusal of the Brewster Alumni Nurses to attend the event that forced an invite for me on that day. After the presentation I approached a very nervous Mayor Brown and thanked him for the flowery words about the preservation of the building and LaVilla and told him I expected him to do more to save what remained. He then told me "He would do everything within his power to see Brewster finished and opened and action be taken to save the other structures". I am still waiting to see what "everything" means to this man. So far, not much when it comes to the Harlem of the South nor when it comes to this community which is integral to who and what Jacksonville was and is. (pardon the vent here folks, but I sometimes wonder just how well Alvin Brown reps "all" of Jacksonville. I know the folks in District 9 do.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTatxQE0i4s
http://www.youtube.com/v/dTatxQE0i4s?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0"
I posted before with some criticism, but I have to weigh in on this. Lavilla is a black eye on the face of Jacksonville, and IMO the whole block that now consists of the three refugee shotgun houses and Genover's hall should be dedicated to a museum and memorial to the now extinct neighborhood of Lavilla. An emphasis should be given to how the dangers of thoughtless demolitions and destruction can ruin the entire fabric of a city for generations. Jacksonville is a wonderful city, however, a great city would take responsibility for its careless actions, own it, and put it on display for others to learn from. Preservation of these houses should be mandatory, telling the true history through education and memorial would be honorable.
Quote from: HisBuffPVB on August 02, 2013, 04:55:22 PM
The Shotgun Houses to which these folks are referring were actually put up with Federal grants dating back to the 1880s when a house with a sanitary privy out back was considered adequate housing, A lot of it was on the back side of Brooklyn and all the way to the east side of the old Ritz Theatre. By the 1980' they were just not maintainable. Off of Riverside , there is one that has been rebuilt and maintained. For what reason would they be preserved, and who would want to live in them It sounds great to preserve, but with preservation comes maintenance and vandalism. The city cannot maintain what it owns now, how can they add more? Best to do a photo essay and location map of where they were and put that in the vaults of the Historical Society and the library.
I used to live in a restored shotgun house in Columbia SC. It was the middle unit of three shotgun homes. The prior owner had done the renovations, adding a room on the back and enclosing the side porch. It was 1,200 SF and it was beautifully done.
There are pictures of it somewhere on this forum, but that was probably in 2006 or earlier. I wouldn't know where to begin to locate it. The pictures are on my old computer HD, which isn't easily accessable to me right now.
Maybe on my next trip through Columbia I can snap some new ones.
There were other shotguns in my same block, all but one had been restored, and was owner-occupied. They all sold quickly whenever they hit the market. The one I bought had four contracts after 2 days on the market, and it was priced at the top of the market. Needless to say, I paid the full list price.
Can someone embedd this? This is a MUST SEE for anyone viewing this thread.
Ironically, one of the houses shown in the video is on LEE STREET' but in a different city than the one the three LaVilla houses originally were built on.
Same situation, different city. One city 'lives' its history, and the other 'destroys' it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MGYGG8TVEEg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MGYGG8TVEEg)
So far 12 of the Freedmen's cottages have been saved.
^ Wow, what great goals - stabilize the downtown neighborhoods, protect the communities and families, and provide affordable housing in downtown. Luckily Charleston still has these historic homes to salvage.
Thats a nice video...beautiful homes i think...too bad this city has been erasing any history thats includes poor black people...these actions are obviously a racist act by he historically racist city leadership. Nothing has changed....they can always find funds for all kinds of bullshit but to save something like this...
We need a Make It Happen, Springfield-style.
Gloria, thanks so much for embedding my video links. ;) I have more to share on the topic of LaVilla and these old homes and will do so shortly. After having uncovered reams of information and downright dirty activities and schemes in the heart of the destruction of LaVilla and my deep enduring friendship with the members of the community there and the "Brewster Alumni Nurses" this story still pains me terribly. It is without a doubt one of the worst examples of racist destruction of a community, helped along by self serving politicians of both the White and Black race that happened to the historic fabric of Jacksonville. There were so many games played that were based in the desire to erase LaVilla that the echo's of those efforts remain today. This was a thought out and wilful destruction. I spoke with many officials who were involved at the beginning of this effort from past city and state officials to local folks. More than once, as the story was shared, I was told, "I am going to tell you what really happened, but if you say that I told you this I will deny it". I was on the receiving end of letters from an attorney of one of the developer/architects Ted Pappa's that in essence threatened my continued involvement in saving LaVilla and specifically the Brewster Hospital and having some of the remaining land put into trust for appropriate use. The attorney was a partner in these dealings. I was even told I would end up in a "ditch"somewhere one day for my efforts. This swath of history is as ugly as it gets. Some of those involved in the initial actions that saw the remaining structures wanting to be either demolished or moved to a park run by a local Black fraternity were Warren Jones, Reggie Fullwood, Reggie Estelle (attorney for the fraternity) and Al Battle who was the head of the DDA at the time. I confronted all of them over the Brewster and LaVilla and found three different contracts in the city dealing with land handed over to developers for pennies on the dollar. That's three "different" contracts in city files in different departments reflecting a single deal. Things got so heated that Al Battle ended up leaving the city for a job in Miami. I had discovered that documents that related to LaVilla and the Brewster were kept in the trunk of his car and not in city offices. This was told to me and verified by Battles own staff members. This is a very long and ugly story.
Whatever you can tell us. We will listen
I can tell you guys a lot. So much. Actually, all of this has me next to tears again and I am not a weak person. I am certainly not fearful either. Had I been so, the Brewster would never be standing and the "full" story might remain unknown. What was done here is shadowed in other remaining black communities and I am sure this will not surprise you, but in Springfield as well. It's heartbreaking, so heartbreaking.
save the houses.
Quote from: sheclown on August 03, 2013, 03:14:03 PM
save the houses.
Indeed Gloria, save the houses and save what little remains of the history. I have been pondering all of this since Ennis posted this thread, my heart is burning again over the ugliness of what has happened in our city and many would like to see buried and gone. I don't believe things happen by accident. I am hoping that now might be the time to breath some life back into the "true" history of Jacksonville. What city leaders have attempted to do over the decades is destroy the real truth which is that Jacksonville began as a "Black City". That is what they have tried to erase to suit their own version of history and in so doing, by denying the core of our beginnings we have since the beginning denied the truth of Jacksonville then and now. Frankly, my heart has always told me that this "deception" is the crack in the veneer of Jacksonville's spirit that has made going forward so very difficult. Just imagine if Jacksonville embraced that history, put life back into the truth, what good things could come from a truly unified city.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that the administration wants to knock down the shotgun houses. They've sat behind the fencing, left to suffer the elements, but that does not mean they cannot be restored. The city over the years have taken LaVilla and virtually wiped it from the map and with that, wiped a major aspect of Jacksonville's history along with it. New medical and office buildings and vacant lots are basically all that's left. Brewster House is there, restored but remains closed with no life in it. Genovah Hall is an expensive shell with a tin roof...(talk about major waste and millions unaccounted for) and a house or so here and there, the rest...gone.
Jacksonville remains ignorant and unwilling to preserve any historical value at all. The city leaders keep spewing how they want COJ to become a major player, have spent thousands of dollars visiting major cities...and come back and fail to see the importance of history. Spending money for nothing, and still remain ignorant to what's important and what brings value to those major cities.
Those shotgun houses need help, they need to be preserved. They sit on blocks, no power, no water, just sitting and waiting for someone with the foresight in this city to step up and do the right things.
SAVE THE HOUSES!
Dear Forum posters and readers. We cannot standby and let the few threads of the remaining history of LaVilla be demolished. I have written a letter to the members of the Land use and Zoning Board to defer action on this issue until they can be fully apprised of the "importance" of the restoration of these buildings is to our complete and shared history. Please either write a letter to the members of council listed below or copy and paste the one and send it a.s.a.p. Thank you in advance for your efforts.
Land Use and Zoning
lboyer@coj.net
wbishop@coj.net
holt@coj.net
jimlove@coj.net
rlumb@coj.net
redman@coj.net
Dear Councilwoman Boyer and members of the Land Use and Zoning Committee,
It has come to my attention that a meeting is scheduled by this committee for August 6th, 2013 to potentially decide the future of the three Shotgun houses remaining in the community of LaVilla. I am guessing that many of you do not know the full story of the lengthy and heartfelt efforts I and others have been involved in for nearly a decade to save not only the "Historic Brewster Hospital" but also the remaining "Shotgun Houses". The story of the houses and the fight to save them is too long to share here but it is one that needs to be heard in it's entirety. For this reason, I and other supporters of saving the structures are requesting that you "defer" action on this issue on August 6th so that myself and others have the chance to show city officials once again why it is so important that what is left of "Historic LaVilla" is saved. I also want to point out that the city paid over $100,000.00 to move the shotgun houses to the location they are currently at and that efforts by individuals to have the restoration of these structures completed were a victim of a specific political agenda. Please refresh yourselves as to the issue and it's importance by visiting the attached link and reading the input posted there about not only the history of these houses but the concern of the citizens of Jacksonville to save them and by extension what is left of LaVilla history. Please make sure to watch the three short videos posted on the forum link above as well. Your consideration to this matter is very much appreciated.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-lavilla-shotgun-houses-on-verge-of-being-demolished
Sincerely,
Diane Melendez
Avondale
done
Thank you Gloria. People can also contact the land and use committee members by phone on Monday and state their support of the structures and as for the issue to be deferred. 904 630-CITY can connect everyone to the members of Council.
Again those folks are Lori Boyer, Bill Bishop, Ray Holt, Jim Love, Robin Lumb and Don Redman. Let's stop these destruction of what is left of LaVilla's rich history.
Thanks for your insight Diane. I'll write a letter as well.
Thank you Ennis. I have reached out to many on my "old grapevine" as well as new friends. If we can get this deferred, I will drag my tired old backside out to make a presentation with your help down the road. I want the people in office to understand that bringing life to LaVilla just might be the thing that creates enough buzz to excite investors. I mean, we are talking "The Harlem of the South" here. ;)
Harlem of the South? I'm ready to make the case that Harlem is the LaVilla of the North! :)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2013, 05:32:04 PM
Harlem of the South? I'm ready to make the case that Harlem is the LaVilla of the North! :)
I'll make that case with you my friend. :)
It might be wise to also have everyone email Warren Jones on this issue as well. LaVilla is after all his district. He needs to step up and take "positive" action to save what is left and breath no life into a powerful and rich past history.
Warren Jones. wajones@coj.net
(904) 630-1395
Another easy way to show your support for Landmark Designation of the endangered "LaVilla trio" of houses is to sign this petition on change.org.
http://www.change.org/petitions/jacksonville-landing-use-zoning-board-support-historic-landmark-designation-for-lavilla-shotgun-houses
It will automatically send an email to each of the members of the LUZ board. Let them know you think this is important!
Quote from: m74reeves on August 04, 2013, 10:22:47 PM
Another easy way to show your support for Landmark Designation of the endangered "LaVilla trio" of houses is to sign this petition on change.org.
http://www.change.org/petitions/jacksonville-landing-use-zoning-board-support-historic-landmark-designation-for-lavilla-shotgun-houses
It will automatically send an email to each of the members of the LUZ board. Let them know you think this is important!
Please everyone, sign this petition. :)
What exactly is left in LaVilla?
Where can I access the short list of structures that remain.
Ritz
Clara White
The Terminal
Shotgun Trio
Two-two story houses in view of the fugly courthouse
This 3 yr old TU article has an interesting map that shows buildings...don't know if it's still a good resource
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-05-19/story/future-jacksonvilles-longtime-lavilla-project-good-or-bad
Quote from: iloveionia on August 05, 2013, 01:15:18 AM
What exactly is left in LaVilla?
Where can I access the short list of structures that remain.
Ritz
Clara White
The Terminal
Shotgun Trio
Two-two story houses in view of the fugly courthouse
Here's a link to an article I put together in December. It provides you with a brief background and image of most of the remaining historical buildings in LaVilla.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2267401912_d5ntJ56-600x1000.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-dec-what-to-do-with-lavilla
I love your words at the end of the article, Ennis:
Quote
A look across the country provides numerous examples of faux stories and settings to spur economic development and revitalization. Oklahoma City made a canal for Bricktown. Tampa created stories about pirates. Atlanta actually thinks Sweet Auburn is the Harlem of the South. However, what we have in our possession is our history. A storied one that goes well past the city limits of Jacksonville. A setting that can't be recreated by the Disneys, St. Johns Town Centers, or Nocatees of America.
Given what remains of LaVilla, it appears we're completely ignoring the potential of this nationally historic significant bastion of African-American history literally sitting in our laps. Before moving forward with the idea of building a SOE office/warehouse on the largest remaining undeveloped property in LaVilla, perhaps it's time we at least determine what we desire the ultimate future of LaVilla to be and the role it should play in the creation of a vibrant downtown.
^ absolutely!
Quote from: iloveionia on August 05, 2013, 01:15:18 AM
What exactly is left in LaVilla?
Where can I access the short list of structures that remain.
Ritz
Clara White
The Terminal
Shotgun Trio
Two-two story houses in view of the fugly courthouse
Brewster Hospital is another important building still standing.
Thank you. More than I expected. Much like Springfield the loss of density is tragic. There are only 6 residential homes left in LaVilla? How many were razed? I type that like I didn't know that, but I did. 1,500 or so demolished? Of the buildings in the article, how many are occupied and used today? Any city owned? Who owns Brewster? The city? Same with the bungalow trio, right? The history of the area is phenomenal. So much for the Renaissance plan.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on August 05, 2013, 09:11:55 AM
Quote from: iloveionia on August 05, 2013, 01:15:18 AM
What exactly is left in LaVilla?
Where can I access the short list of structures that remain.
Ritz
Clara White
The Terminal
Shotgun Trio
Two-two story houses in view of the fugly courthouse
Brewster Hospital is another important building still standing.
Thank you for remembering "Brewster Hospital"! :)
Ennis, I love what you posted earlier today and agree. We need to save what is left, go forward and incorporate LaVilla into the plans to revitalize downtown. I just don't think many people can see past what has been devastated and there is always a way forward. How nice it would have been had there not been such destruction. We need these shotgun houses saved and to bring officials around to the reality that demolishing what they don't like or want isn't a valid stepping stone to improvement or growth in Jacksonville's historic areas.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 05, 2013, 01:32:41 PM
We need these shotgun houses saved and to bring officials around to the reality that demolishing what they don't like or want isn't a valid stepping stone to improvement or growth in Jacksonville's historic areas.
That's not a reality. Its your opinion.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 05, 2013, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 05, 2013, 01:32:41 PM
We need these shotgun houses saved and to bring officials around to the reality that demolishing what they don't like or want isn't a valid stepping stone to improvement or growth in Jacksonville's historic areas.
That's not a reality. Its your opinion.
What would be the reality Megatron?
Check out this Video. You will enjoy it and perhaps be saddened as well!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1167304778845
Received confirmation from Councilwoman Lori Boyer's office that she is in receipt of my email about this issue. I am waiting for her phone call later today or tomorrow. Will keep all updated.
Save the buildings, use Monopoly money if necessary! LUZ taking it up tomorrow, can't wait for it! Move them to Brooklyn, where the new growth is bound to spring up around the new buildings.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 05, 2013, 06:17:06 PM
Save the buildings, use Monopoly money if necessary! LUZ taking it up tomorrow, can't wait for it! Move them to Brooklyn, where the new growth is bound to spring up around the new buildings.
In the real world the buildings can be saved and restored without the use of monopoly money. I wonder, do you think it was $100,000 of city monopoly money or real tax dollars that was spent to move them to where they now stand? Should that money simply be thrown away? Do you suppose if it cost 100k to move them nearly a decade ago, that it would likely cost two to three times as much today? Pure silliness. lol The truth of the matter is that this is about much more than just the structures. A simple read of the thread will help enlighten you as to the overall importance of this issue.
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/Historical-LaVilla-homes-face-possible-demolition/60A3q6P3m0WI0MeSbvcKZQ.cspx
TV coverage
Urban core CPAC voted in support of the landmark designation tonight at its meeting.
Moving them out of LaVilla defeats the purpose.
Quote from: sheclownMoving them out of LaVilla defeats the purpose.
+ 1000! It's a matter of historical value to save them and keep them where they belong, in LaVilla!
What's a "more fitting location" than LaVilla? Oh, I know! When the City parked them there and ignored them instead of restoring them (like they promised) they didn't realize they were going to build a Taj Mahal oops Courthouse right nearby. Now they don't want them near their beautiful new Taj Mahal oops again...Courthouse.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 05, 2013, 09:05:23 PM
What's a "more fitting location" than LaVilla? Oh, I know! When the City parked them there and ignored them instead of restoring them (like they promised) they didn't realize they were going to build a Taj Mahal oops Courthouse right nearby. Now they don't want them near their beautiful new Taj Mahal oops again...Courthouse.
+1000
show your support for the shotguns
Committee Meeting Location / Time
Tuesday at 5:00 p.m.
City Hall - St. James Building
Council Chamber - 1st Floor Atrium
117 W. Duval Street
from April's HPC meeting minutes.
Alan Bliss, is a teacher of US History at UNF. He speaks for the shotguns, saying:
"They are reflective of a distinctive pattern of housing, detached housing in working-class neighborhoods in cities of the American south in the early 20th century. They reflect a distinctive pattern of social relations, private and public life among working class people in settings like this, and they're very distinctive from all the patterns of single-family development and housing that have typified American housing through the rest of the 20th century.
Each house merits preservation because of its own authenticity, as you have just heard, but I'm particularly concerned with, and I particularly advocate their preservation in the cluster, in the arrangement in which they stand because their density is a snapshot of neighborhood authenticity all taken together.
.....
It's lamentable that there is just a small snapshot of this community remaining in Jacksonville, but let's hold on to what we've got and make the best of it. I encourage the board to act favorably."
13:10-15, 14:1-13
Quote from: sheclown on August 06, 2013, 07:35:17 AM
show your support for the shotguns
Committee Meeting Location / Time
Tuesday at 5:00 p.m.
City Hall - St. James Building
Council Chamber - 1st Floor Atrium
117 W. Duval Street
Quote from: sheclown on August 06, 2013, 08:47:25 AM
from April's HPC meeting minutes.
Alan Bliss, is a teacher of US History at UNF. He speaks for the shotguns, saying:
"They are reflective of a distinctive pattern of housing, detached housing in working-class neighborhoods in cities of the American south in the early 20th century. They reflect a distinctive pattern of social relations, private and public life among working class people in settings like this, and they're very distinctive from all the patterns of single-family development and housing that have typified American housing through the rest of the 20th century.
Each house merits preservation because of its own authenticity, as you have just heard, but I'm particularly concerned with, and I particularly advocate their preservation in the cluster, in the arrangement in which they stand because their density is a snapshot of neighborhood authenticity all taken together.
.....
It's lamentable that there is just a small snapshot of this community remaining in Jacksonville, but let's hold on to what we've got and make the best of it. I encourage the board to act favorably."
13:10-15, 14:1-13
Yes and yes.
If anyone is going to the meeting this afternoon to speak on behalf of landmarking the shotgun homes, there's no reason to defer the effort to a later meeting. It appears that if enough people speak in support of preserving them, they'll be landmarked.
Gloria will be going for PSOS and for UC CPAC
Great news Strider. Gloria, please do a mini blog if you can.
I just got off the phone with Lori Boyer! :) :) :)
Keep to the program folks. Show your support now and in a continued fashion. We are being heard loud and clear~
Ennis, check your email. :)
They are discussing right now...
Interestingly, Lumb is asking about Genovar Hall and the approx $1M that was spent. Can't be demo'ed now without having to repay all the various grant funds....
bishop asking is landmarking only associated with the structures or also with the property they are on...
joel responds that landmarking will have to be associated with a physical piece of land
also bishop asking why does city have to landmark something it owns? he says something to the effect of "is it for protecting them from ourselves as well as for funding purposes."
watching from home.
gloria d reads support from cpac. gloria also suggests that mothballing should be considered.
redmon asking for details of mothballing...he doesn't seem to understand what is entailed...gloria does good job of explaining how it is to be done and how it removes blight and protects structures.
redmon says, "youre talking about decorating."
schellenburg (sp) wants joel to look at these and determine if these can be renovated to be done w/in 2 weeks (review, not renovation).
2nd speaker (didn't catch name)
encouraging JAX to consider the importance of LaVilla particularly as it relates to af american history
3rd "speaker" via card supports landmarking...
Linda Mitchell Harper speaking...she was instrumental in getting these saved and moved first time.
She says she is appalled that we are having to work to save these again. If they were worthy then, they should be worthy now.
Debbie T speaking in support.
Mr. Jones saying that we are not as progressive as others (Charleston, Savannah) in protecting our history. He asked for support of saving.
Redman...this property is valuable, 2 blocks from our courthouse, high tax property that the City doesn't need to own, the city needs to get rid of them
Bishop...this does represent a large piece of jax history thats gone. shouldn't be a huge economic investment b/c of their size. they have saved themselves b/c of what they are made of. thinks location is not ideal but it is on same block as genovar. across from lavilla school of arts which could also be a plus location wise. no one is standing in line asking for site.
Bishop! wow, where did he come from?
lumb...thinks infill and other issues around courthouse...don't think anything is near highest and best use. these perhaps could be moved later date if needed.
love...thinks they can be moved easily. put new shingles [metal]. wants to be if unf program could do work.
[both support landmarking]
jones...how about fscj renovate/improve as a class project. mothballing is good, but full reno would be better. genovar another issue.
We have a designation!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we have some educating to do as well about why and how these homes and other structures got to the point they are currently at an why they need to remain where they are. Thanks to all who worked to make this happen. Well done. A new beginning is at hand.
they are voting now for landmark designation. no reason to defer.
voted 6 in favor for landmarking these. none opposed.
boyer thanks jones for attending...suggests that they get together on ideas for funding to improve these (perhaps cip).
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 06, 2013, 06:29:58 PM
We have a designation!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we have some educating to do as well about why and how these homes and other structures got to the point they are currently at an why they need to remain where they are. Thanks to all who worked to make this happen. Well done. A new beginning is at hand.
Ms. Mitchell Harper would be a good person to talk to about why it wasn't done when these were moved
my take away from watching this is that they all wanted to support this, la villa is important, blah blah, but they wanted to be able to move these at some later date in case some big development deal arises.
b/c you know, there are hardly any available vacant lots there.
funny/not so funny moment: redmon sounded like a goob when he compared mothballing to decorating. that was hilarious.
funny moment: members noting the "plethora" and "boatload" of emails they got.
Great job and congratulations to everyone that worked for this.
^I already know why, in detail. Ms Mitchell was very involved in the beginning but had little involvement in recent years. The fact is that she was "cut out" of the process willfully by individuals in office who wanted her to back off her efforts. She and her group used to pick up and mow to keep the properties up. They were eventually locked out.
It is my plan to make sure the members of council know the in's and out's of all of this. I have told this story year after year after year to changing officials, administrations and legislators. It is an ugly story but I plan on telling it one last time so that we can insure that LaVilla and it's history which includes these little houses is respected and preserved.
While Warren Jones says he "inherited" this problem and the failed Genovar Hall, his statement however is not quite accurate. In fact I called him out a number of times for trying behind the scenes with his fraternity friends to get the Brewster Ladies to let them have control of the Hospital. They were very sneaky, but they never counted on the fact that every call they made, every attempt to influence the ladies was told to me immediately by the ladies themselves. They even tried intimidating the ladies saying if they did not give the building over it would be demolished. The Brewster Ladies told Jones, Fullwood and the Fraternity to deal with me directly as they had voted me their representative in all matters concerning Brewster. They were not happy when they found that out. Warren was the one who set that deal into motion and worked with Reggie Fullwood and the Fraternity in the years that followed and then again when he was re-elected. By the way, I found the scam in the Genovar Hall deal when there was 350K already wasted on it. The property had been improperly given to the Fraternity for $10.00 with a Warranty Deed containing a few requirements. This never went to council and there was never a valid contract in advance of the property being turned over to the group. We could have saved nearly 700K in state and local funds had I been able to get this deal stopped when I first exposed what was happening. Nearly a million bucks was blown on those three walls and faulty tin roof that is standing there right now. However, Warren Jones, Reggie Fullwood, Al Battle DDA and Reggie Estelle worked behind the scenes to keep this thing going in order to syphon as much money as possible to members and friends of the Fraternity. There was never a valid document as to how the money was spent as well as any of the requirements of the faulty Warranty Deed being met. This happened outside of the legal process in Jacksonville and the City only got the Deed back from the Fraternity after I involved the State Preservation office and legal authorities. Can you say sham? I sure can.
Thank you Diane. We do need to know the story.
When (year-wise) are we talking about?
I started this the last year that Delaney was in office, through Peyton's administration until now. I have a bunch of documents in storage. I will ask my husband to retrieve them for me. I hope I kept all the site plans that not only show that the shotgun houses were a part of the fraternity plan, but the Genovar Hall and The Brewster Hospital as well. I even have original newspaper clippings of the Fraternity. In fairness to them, the general membership was totally unaware of what was happening behind the scenes. Most of them thought all of this was on the up and up. I also hope to put my hands on the documents that proved that the majority of the LaVilla homes were not derelict but rather were infact sound. What we heard from Redman tonight is part of the original mindset of those who drove the destruction of LaVilla. We are talking racism, money and profit as the bottom line here. As I said earlier it is important to let people know that this was White politicians and developers along with Black politicians and private interests who all had their hands in the "piggy bank" that was and continues to be LaVilla.
The decision to tear down lies with 1 person and 1 person only, the director of Code Enforcement. If she, in this case, sees that a property is not habitable, she can sign the order for destruction. Redman can go push a rope up a tree.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 06, 2013, 10:07:32 PM
The decision to tear down lies with 1 person and 1 person only, the director of Code Enforcement. If she, in this case, sees that a property is not habitable, she can sign the order for destruction. Redman can go push a rope up a tree.
Not sure what you are talking about. Now that the houses are designated tearing them down is no longer simply the decision of the Director of Code Enforcement. Can't happen that way. The same goes for moving the structures. When State historic funding begins to flow again (which is already happening) those houses need to stay where they are in order to move grant requests forward.
Quote from: sheclown on August 05, 2013, 08:09:37 PM
Urban core CPAC voted in support of the landmark designation tonight at its meeting.
Congratulations to all on the vote by LUZ for the Landmark designation. When I tuned in to watch Gloria was addressing the committee. The subsequent speakers and then the vote was a true lesson in civics 101.
The key request by Gloria for the removal of the fence and barbed wire so that access can be gained is pivotal in moving the restoration forward. Maybe a future food truck rotation stop with pavers and a shaded spot with tables in between the houses as life has been given back to a piece of Jacksonville history. Springfield came to LaVilla. Now some from San Marco, Riverside, Avondale, St. Nicholas, Ortega and other parts of Florida will reclaim history.
Gloria on a side note has the Urban Core CPAC on 2013-384 the armory asked for an amendment that would allow for 24/7 access to Hogans Creek?
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 06, 2013, 10:07:32 PM
The decision to tear down lies with 1 person and 1 person only, the director of Code Enforcement. If she, in this case, sees that a property is not habitable, she can sign the order for destruction. Redman can go push a rope up a tree.
Diane, Mtrain is correct. If code declares it an emergency, no designation can save them. See the "emergency demolitions" in Springfield (which are, in essence, landmarked).
Zero checks and balances.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 07, 2013, 12:37:59 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 06, 2013, 10:07:32 PM
The decision to tear down lies with 1 person and 1 person only, the director of Code Enforcement. If she, in this case, sees that a property is not habitable, she can sign the order for destruction. Redman can go push a rope up a tree.
Not sure what you are talking about. Now that the houses are designated tearing them down is no longer simply the decision of the Director of Code Enforcement. Can't happen that way. The same goes for moving the structures. When State historic funding begins to flow again (which is already happening) those houses need to stay where they are in order to move grant requests forward.
It can. It does. Twice on east 2nd Street in the last couple of months.
Code doesn't need to justify/and or prove EMERGENCY to anyone. No one. Nada. Zip.
And don't ask the HPC to protect landmarks from capricious and arbitrary "emergency" demolition either.
They will say "ain't my job, man".
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 07, 2013, 12:37:59 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 06, 2013, 10:07:32 PM
The decision to tear down lies with 1 person and 1 person only, the director of Code Enforcement. If she, in this case, sees that a property is not habitable, she can sign the order for destruction. Redman can go push a rope up a tree.
Not sure what you are talking about. Now that the houses are designated tearing them down is no longer simply the decision of the Director of Code Enforcement. Can't happen that way. The same goes for moving the structures. When State historic funding begins to flow again (which is already happening) those houses need to stay where they are in order to move grant requests forward.
Unfortunately, mtraininjax and Sheclown are very right The Office of General Council has stated for the record at the last HPC meeting that neither the Historic Preservation Commission nor the Staff of the Historic Preservation Department can question her decision in any way and must provide a Certificate of Appropriateness without delay nor question.
If the right people were to decide these now landmarked houses needed to go away and found her funding, even Federal funding, she could take them down and would without hesitation.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 06, 2013, 07:41:51 PM
I started this the last year that Delaney was in office, through Peyton's administration until now. I have a bunch of documents in storage. I will ask my husband to retrieve them for me. I hope I kept all the site plans that not only show that the shotgun houses were a part of the fraternity plan, but the Genovar Hall and The Brewster Hospital as well. I even have original newspaper clippings of the Fraternity. In fairness to them, the general membership was totally unaware of what was happening behind the scenes. Most of them thought all of this was on the up and up. I also hope to put my hands on the documents that proved that the majority of the LaVilla homes were not derelict but rather were infact sound. What we heard from Redman tonight is part of the original mindset of those who drove the destruction of LaVilla. We are talking racism, money and profit as the bottom line here. As I said earlier it is important to let people know that this was White politicians and developers along with Black politicians and private interests who all had their hands in the "piggy bank" that was and continues to be LaVilla.
Was this before they were moved? Or was the removal from Lee Street part of the restoration plan.
^Well, this is very interesting. The office of General council has declared this you say? I am not doubting that they made the statement but whether or not their interpretation of the law regarding demolition is correct is worth looking into more deeply. For instance, you heard during last nights meeting that a structure that has been designated and received grant funds, particularly State funds, if demolished requires those monies be paid back to the State. In some cases that can be thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars. How is it I wonder that a city department head can make such a decision for taxpayers in a unilateral way? Should that even be the case as the reality is "emergency" demolitions are not always an "emergency" in Jacksonville. I also wonder if there has been any "tweaking" of the lawful requirements in recent years? I had occasion during this whole LaVilla struggle to be in a conference room with seven, yes seven attorneys from the GC arguing a point of law and that one set of criterion directly conflicted with another. When all was said and done, it turned out that they indeed had been mistaken in their interpretation.
Everyone may recall that the head of GC, Cindy Laquidara stated that Alvin Brown using donated money and services for travel was not against the rules of State Ethics. She was told by others repeatedly, including our City Ethics Officer that this was in fact an inaccurate determination by law. Recently the State Ethics office ruled that Laquidara was in fact completely off base with her interpretation of the law. As we all know, the mayor can no longer accept these "free rides".
Let me research this further to see if there are some conflicts of policy here. I learned long ago that just because someone in a City Hall department makes a declaration about the law (even the GC) doesn't mean that interpretation of the law is always correct. Let me look into this further. May take some time as I need to check a number of sources. :)
Gloria, When I got involved, the shotgun houses had already been removed. Joel's office should have some documentation as to when the removal took place. I believe it may have been "Hygema" movers who had transported them.
Gloria, what put this mess into action was a bill 2001-375 which was eventually rewritten and "withdrawn" I believe in 2006. As you can see the first part of the bill number "2001" is when it was written. Here is the link for the bill. http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJbillDetail.asp?F=2001-0375\Original%20Text
Note that the bill encompasses "relocated" structures on the site. The shotgun houses were the only buildings relocated to those parcels, so they must have been moved prior to the first draft of this "failed" bill.
Briefly to the issue of demolition and preservation. Here is a portion of what is written at the state level with regard to the "problematic" interpretations" of city law. (note: I didn't re-read the entire file yet, but this is informative) Here is the link to the PDF http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/254/abney.pdf
QuoteHowever, any local government enacting a historic preserv
a
-
tion ordinance should focus on two concerns. First, the ordinance
should be effective. It should establish a historic preservation pr
o
-
gram that actually protects structures and sites deemed worthy of
preservation. Second, the ordinance should be able to withstand legal
challenges. Careful procedures and sufficient standards for reviewing
projects impacting historic properties should be established to ensure
that a court will not overturn the decision of a historic preservation
commission. While only fifteen percent of historic preservation co
m
-
missions implementing local ordinances have had their decisions
challenged in court, "[p]erhaps the greatest fear many commissions
have is being sued by a disgruntled property owner and having the
validity of the ordinance and the commission's powers questioned,
typically with great publicity."
1
Faced with a broad array of potential
legal challenges—including claims concerning procedural due pro
c
-
ess,
2
private property rights,
3
the Americans With Disabilities Act
(ADA),
4
and the designation of religious properties
5
—it is no wonder
that keeping out of court is a priority for many historic preservation
commissions.
A common challenge to loca
l historic preservation ordinances i
n
-
volves the vagueness doctrine.
All of that seems like it is to help insure that the structures are protected. Jacksonville's OGC seems to have recently done the opposite.
Quote from: strider on August 07, 2013, 01:29:58 PM
All of that seems like it is to help insure that the structures are protected. Jacksonville's OGC seems to have recently done the opposite.
Indeed.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 07, 2013, 08:55:34 AM
^ For instance, you heard during last nights meeting that a structure that has been designated and received grant funds, particularly State funds, if demolished requires those monies be paid back to the State. In some cases that can be thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars. How is it I wonder that a city department head can make such a decision for taxpayers in a unilateral way?
I believe that statement was made in reference to Genovar Hall. The City/fraternity received thousands of dollars in state historic grant moneys and I *think* maybe CDBG??? Because the money is spent, but the project is not complete, they are definitely in non-compliance. But, while at least a shell of the building still stands, at least they can say that there is a possibility of someone picking up the pieces and making a project work. Demolition of Genovar would trigger payback of those grants since the proposed project never materialized after funds expended.
That would be the same case even in non historic properties. Say the City uses its federal HUD money to help a non profit building some affordable housing. They advance money to non profit, but the project doesn't materialize. The non profit would have to return the funds (or the City if the non profit doesn't step up).
Yes, they were talking about Genovar Hall last night. :) But the same holds true for any building that has received Federal Historic Preservation funds, which is what has me questioning the "demolition" process in Jacksonville yet again. It would seem to me that allowing a single department head to make the call for demolition on any structure that would put the city in the position of paying back funds, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of dollars to the state should not be in the hands of a single individual. Just speaking in general terms about how the "law" is being used or " interpreted" here.
Here we go guys, from the City Website and to my point about conflicting requirements under law regarding Historic Properties. I think demolition of a building sure as heck qualifies as "altering the appearance of a designated site". lol Note a review is required by law of all departments, agencies and other authorities before any action that will alter the structure can be undertaken.
Quote
1.1.3 The City of Jacksonville shall incorporate into its historic preservation ordinance, procedures for the review by the Jacksonville Historic Landmarks Commission, or any subsequent review body, of all plans that will physically alter the appearance of a designated site, property or historic district. This review will be required of all departments, agencies, and other authorities of the City or companies or contractors representing any department, agency or authority of the City performing work for the City
http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/current-planning-division/historic-preservation-element.aspx
This is also quite interesting and is part of a Jacksonville legislative document from 1988. Last evening there was a question asked by Don Redman about who was supposed to pay for the care/restoration of the shotgun houses, which we know are owned by the City. Well, gosh oh golly gee Don, looks like there is supposed to be a provision in the law for the City to do this. The shotgun homes are now historically designated. Besides this fact is the reality that the city failed to maintain property it owned and has failed city wide to do so. There are ordinances in this city addressing those who own properties and their upkeep. Those also apply to the city. Looks like Snyder Church, which is in need of repairs, cleaning of interior mold and the like falls under this category as well.
QuoteMinPro Conv
O 1988-0253 88-253 ORD RELATING TO HISTORIC PROPERTIES & PRESERVATION; AMEND CHAPT 76, ORD CODE CREATING AN HISTORIC LANDMARKS COMM; DESIGNATING THE HISTORIC LANDMARKS COMM AS THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMM; ENUMERATING POWERS & DUTIES OF THE HISTORIC LANDMARKS COMM; AMEND TITLE VII, CONSERVATION & HISTORIC PRESERVATION BY ADDING A NEW CHAPT 307 STATING PURPOSE & DECLARING PUBLIC POLICY; DIRECTING DESIGNATION OF HISTORIC LANDMARKS, LANDMARK SITES & DISTS; PROVIDING PROCEDURE FOR SUCH DESIGNATIONS; AUTH & PROVIDING PROCEDURES FOR APPROVAL OF CHANGES TO HISTORIC LANDMARKS, LANDMARK SITES & DISTS; ESTAB EMERG ACTIONS FOR NON-DESIGNATED PROPTY; PROVIDING FOR MAINT & REPAIR OF HISTORIC LANDMARKS, LANDMARK SITES & DISTS; PROVIDING PENALTIES; PROVIDING CIVIL REMEDIES; PROVIDING FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF; PROVIDING FOR CONSTRN WITH OTHER LAWS, PROVIDING FOR SEVERABILITY. (REQ OF HISTORIC LANDMARK COMM & C/M DARLING, FOWLER & DAVIS) (NOTE: ADVERTISED FOR PUBLIC HEARING FOR MAR,.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 07, 2013, 02:19:58 PM
Here we go guys, from the City Website and to my point about conflicting requirements under law regarding Historic Properties. I think demolition of a building sure as heck qualifies as "altering the appearance of a designated site". lol Note a review is required by law of all departments, agencies and other authorities before any action that will alter the structure can be undertaken.
Quote
1.1.3 The City of Jacksonville shall incorporate into its historic preservation ordinance, procedures for the review by the Jacksonville Historic Landmarks Commission, or any subsequent review body, of all plans that will physically alter the appearance of a designated site, property or historic district. This review will be required of all departments, agencies, and other authorities of the City or companies or contractors representing any department, agency or authority of the City performing work for the City
http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/current-planning-division/historic-preservation-element.aspx
So, a COA isn't a "courtesy" for other departments, it is a requirement. Even with emergencies.
The HPC looks like it is required to review.
Quote from: sheclown on August 07, 2013, 06:13:50 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 07, 2013, 02:19:58 PM
Here we go guys, from the City Website and to my point about conflicting requirements under law regarding Historic Properties. I think demolition of a building sure as heck qualifies as "altering the appearance of a designated site". lol Note a review is required by law of all departments, agencies and other authorities before any action that will alter the structure can be undertaken.
Quote
1.1.3 The City of Jacksonville shall incorporate into its historic preservation ordinance, procedures for the review by the Jacksonville Historic Landmarks Commission, or any subsequent review body, of all plans that will physically alter the appearance of a designated site, property or historic district. This review will be required of all departments, agencies, and other authorities of the City or companies or contractors representing any department, agency or authority of the City performing work for the City
http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/current-planning-division/historic-preservation-element.aspx
So, a COA isn't a "courtesy" for other departments, it is a requirement. Even with emergencies.
The HPC looks like it is required to review.
It sure looks like this is a requirement as stated on the City's own site while giving a breakdown of Historic Preservation criterion (which is currently online, link posted in my previous comments). This is what I have found in dealing with this city over the years. Very often there is criterion and legislation that conflicts. It is also not unheard of for legal opinions from the GC to match current departmental actions as opposed to question them. Not in all cases of course, but often enough. The problem is that citizens almost never investigate things (documents and laws) on their own and simply accept what the city tells them on an issue. I have learned that intentionally or non-intentionally, information given is not always accurate or according to all the legislation on the books as well as departmental requirements. Of course the public assumes what they are being told is both accurate and non-debatable. That is simply not the case.
For the record, before we get too giddy, we don't yet have designation. LUZ approved it. It still has to go before the full City Council where, we know, anything can happen.
Don Redman keeps talking about the valuable land two block from the courthouse. No one has lined up for it yet, but in true Jacksonville style, he want these houses gone anyway ahead of time, just in case. How many times now have we torn down buildings for a development that was promised and never happened? Our city is littered with vacant lots with ghosts standing on them. And not just the urban core. There's a huge vacant lot at I-95 and University where two motels once stood and where, today, a Home Depot is supposed to be standing. Instead, it's an empty, ugly, weed strewn, fenced, concrete lot.
So keep the emails and support coming. Come to the Council meeting and speak for preservation. It ain't over till it's over, and the fat lady sings.