Presentation for: New Southbank Riverwalk
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670756354_QgsRWGp-M.jpg)
Here is a look at the City of Jacksonville's plans to reconstruct the decaying Southbank Riverwalk. If approved by the Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB) today, construction will commence later this year.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-presentation-for-new-southbank-riverwalk
Looks nice.
Looks good!
Was just looking over the Wikipedia page for the Jacksonville River walk. Let's hope for better success than the 1985 Master Plan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Riverwalk#Master_plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Riverwalk#Master_plan)
I really like all the colors on the PPT graphics...they look so real!
btw, land at the eastern end is up for sale (article in today's paper)....roughly $15 million for 10 acres....that's relatively cheap for downtown riverfront land, but hardly what I would call worthless (Simms used term for Shipyards land value)
I really like it.
It looks real good. One question though - is that dock going to be a public dock? There's a bunch of small units near the chart house (mostly empty) but boaters would need a place to dock if they're to visit those shops, along w/the chart house, or maybe friends at the condos there.
Wow I am impressed.
Here's an idea, if you plant something other than palm trees, you won't need shade structures. That is my biggest complaint of the North bank riverwalk. In the dead of summer, that riverwalk is almost unusable as it is so hot. Why no shade trees?
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 01, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
Here's an idea, if you plant something other than palm trees, you won't need shade structures. That is my biggest complaint of the North bank riverwalk. In the dead of summer, that riverwalk is almost unusable as it is so hot. Why no shade trees?
I agree - what's the deal with all the palm trees? I know this is Florida but cumon, it's not Miami.
It's great that this is being proposed because there are some really well thought out additions to this plan. If this does go through it will be a significant upgrade to the Southbank riverwalk. But looking at slide 6, it appears as though they aren't including the now vacant structres which were the maritime museum. Is the plan to tear these down? Perhaps put something new there? If the idea is to increase foot traffic, the half next to Friendship Fountain would be an ideal place to put something new, perhaps bike rentals or a place to have a food truck or two?
Also, the public restroom on the southbank which is part of the security area is nothing short of awful. Is there a plan to update/replace that as well in this plan?
If this does go through, it's quite possible that the empty storefronts next to the Wyndham may be able to attract new tenants which would really transform the area.
I'm thinking root systems on the trees. Palm trees have very little root system. I could be wrong, though. I was looking at the palms along Riverside Avenue this morning. Looking shaggy with dead fronds. You have to trim those things constantly to keep them looking nice.
Couldn't agree more with a lot of the already shared sentiments. Design seems quite appealing, but this constant use of palm trees is one of those smaller issues that can have an outsize impact. Walking from the Hyatt to the Landing a couple weekends ago in the middle of the afternoon while showing a visiting friend around ensured I will not be repeating the experience while the sun is shining.
Quote from: Bativac on August 01, 2013, 11:31:03 AM
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 01, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
Here's an idea, if you plant something other than palm trees, you won't need shade structures. That is my biggest complaint of the North bank riverwalk. In the dead of summer, that riverwalk is almost unusable as it is so hot. Why no shade trees?
I agree - what's the deal with all the palm trees? I know this is Florida but cumon, it's not Miami.
I think the problem is that it seems exclusively palm trees. I like the look of palms mixed with shade trees to me that says North Florida.
palm tree root structures are nornmally pretty small and shallow. They will not damage lighting structures, wires, irrigation, brick pavers, etc. We all know that if these things get damaged the City will not repair them and the whole thing will begin to look shoddy in three years.
river walk needs a facelift. I like the colorful brick, but of course this plan doesn't compare to the initial plan in 85.
I'm hoping the timing of this renovation/rebuild is perfect.
::::fingers crossed:::: for a chain of big announcements on the southbank.
The LED lights are smart. I assume the pavers are designed to be permeable? There should be recycling receptacles in addition to refuse; my guess is that would divert the vast majority of solid waste (e.g. drink cans & bottles) from the landfill. If they are going to spend the money for structure to hold the shade sails, why not install some solar photovoltaics in addition?
A big chunk of the adjacent/overlapping land is up for sale now.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-07-31/story/big-chunk-southbank-sale
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/map.JPG)
I like the educational and directional signage.
LOVE everything. Will be a great upgrade. Can't wait.
Sucks that access to the Main Street Bridge isn't being improved.
Quote from: coredumped on August 01, 2013, 10:17:32 AM
It looks real good. One question though - is that dock going to be a public dock?
That is a great question! So what is the answer? The picture of the floating dock in 32 is one huge dock. Where was that taken.
Let's all remember that the RAM dock is only open when RAM is open and is shut out for any and all Public and economic opportunity for everyone else in our new highly restricted DIA zone. That is a fact.
Will this dock come before the Jacksonville Waterways Commission? Councilman Gulliford will you send it to Councilman Redman the new chair of Waterways? Coredumped nails it!
The Public Trust has been completely and totally destroyed when it comes to economic opportunity to our Waterways Downtown.
At a recent Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA and sitting next to Scott Wilson (back me up on this Scott) I asked if anyone wanted to pull up to the floating dock that is right now there at the 40 plus acre SHIPYARDS property and get out and use it the answer from Tony Allegretti and Paul Crawford was a HUGE NO! NO! NO!
So be concerned if you think that this new dock is for everyone. pick and choose the winners and losers.
2013-384 - Hogans Creek will an amendment be attached for 24/7 access? Active legislation.
2013-373- Regulatory Compliance Coordinator. What is that? For who? Active legislation.
And my favorite. The Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, 26' Berkman Floating dock compromise misrepresented by OGC to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission during the 2013 FIND grant application process.
So what was the length of the old dock? What is the length of the new dock?
Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA today at 4pm. 1st floor city hall.
A new Authority
Embrace it
Or
It will Embrace us
Quote from: thelakelander on August 01, 2013, 10:30:47 PM
Sucks that access to the Main Street Bridge isn't being improved.
talk to the folks at the Crown Plaza
i really cant believe the management at the Crowne Plaza are being such jerks about this. you would think they would be happy about the improvements.
The Landing, and the riverwalk back in the 80's was designed to look like Jacksonville heritage of old warehouses era along the river. This riverwalk is a more modern theme. It is pretty pictures not much details. The pavers will likely be set on a concrete structure. They will be "impervious". The swirley pattern and concrete over water structure will not be cheap.
Like any construction project it will disrupt businesses along the riverwalk removing for a time one of the features they "sell". For example, during that time, as much as a year, the Crown Plaza won't have the benefit of the riverwalk. It will affect them twice as long through negative reviews. Given the history of hotels on the south bank I suspect they are struggling.
^That's true of any project like this, but it doesn't change the fact that it needs to be done. Currently they'll be struggling anyway as the rest of the walk goes forward but in the end that section won't be improved like it should.
Security Cameras will be needed both to catch and avert crime. JSO can monitor much like is done at Friendship Fountain.
Cameras should be a part if our Downtown Renovation.
Is the Riverwalk ON Crowne Plaza property? If not, why not just go ahead and rebuild that section, too? If the Crowne is being a problem, build the riverwalk without a connection to their hotel. Alternatively, when the renovation is done, except for the CP section, put up signs saying, "The next 500' (whatever) is brought to you by Crowne Plaza Hotel."
Sounds like an ok plan. To me it seems like putting a little lip stick on a pig but I guess anything is better than what it is now. I would love to see the old maritime museum turned into a wine and cigar lounge on the river, kinda of like a up scale Blue Martini. Great location right on the river. I also like the idea of having those vacant offices near the Wyhndam on the River to be turned into some coffee shops, resturaunts or maybe a spa/hair salon. I would love to get me hair done and have a cup of coffee with a great view very relaxing. For security purposes they should have those emergency stakes where you can press the button and be automatically directed to the Jax sheriffs office just like they have them around UNF or other college campuses. Last but not least what is going on with that Big vacant property where the NFL Experience used to be when the Super Bowl was here. That should be like a Hard Rock Cafe or an ESPN Zone, something to attract people to that area maybe even expand the Wyhndam can be the Hard Rock Cafe and Hotel SouthBank! Just Saying...
Where are the designated access points to the Southbank Riverwalk and where is the parking? What type a access will this give? Foot and bike but any auto vehicle loading/unloading, any types of water craft access to the river?
Redman is not happy with the width, and, I never thought I'd say this, but I actually agree with him.
http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/kwidget/wid/_557781/uiconf_id/20678232/entry_id/0_fzolp5m1
http://www.news4jax.com/news/new-southbank-riverwalk-new-problems/31216596
Well that was a major fumble. Makes you wonder how in the world did anyone in planning think 4.5ft clearance is enough. Redman is right on this one. The circular benches are attractive but removing them and replacing with the straight benches is the right call.
Stay positive! This is a job for the Hemming Park bench removing team.
Yes, Redman is 100% right. I just wonder why this issue never came up during the design phase.
The presentation (on this thread) had much more generous space:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670757154_tkxJGmL-M.jpg)
but I'm guessing these are just sketches and are never close to scale?
That's awful & incredibly shortsighted planning. They're gonna have to take those benches out & put straight ones all the way back to the edge of the opposite end if they wanna do this properly.
There's also a bottleneck on the northbank in front of the landing restaurants thats needed addressing since forever. Wheelchairs, bikes, bike trailers, etc can never ever get through there if there's even one single person in front of you or coming in the opposite direction.
We'll talk about the main street bridge path narrowness another day. ;)
Who does their design review? sheesh
The benches and those canvas things need to just come out altogether. The path is too narrow even without them.
I agree. All of that will need to be removed if the thought is to allow both cyclists and pedestrians on it.
Why am I not surprised.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 12, 2015, 12:15:54 AM
Yes, Redman is 100% right. I just wonder why this issue never came up during the design phase.
This!
Everything after 'but' is complete bullshit.
Maybe to be eligible for, well.... breathing?!? a person should have to pass the most basic blueprint reading course, watch a youtube video or something... Courthouse/Monroe St ring a bell?
Because Jacksonville.....
Quote from: vicupstate on February 12, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
The benches and those canvas things need to just come out altogether. The path is too narrow even without them.
The canvas canopies offer shade which will is very important. As CM redman notes, it is a pretty easy fix. Just remove the circular benches and put straight benches on either side of the canopy poles. That will provide 8+ feet of walking space.
Redman's right, removing the round benches and replacing with straight ones will help some, but the bottom line is, that walkway is too narrow to begin with. How did this happen?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2015, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 12, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
The benches and those canvas things need to just come out altogether. The path is too narrow even without them.
The canvas canopies offer shade which will is very important. As CM redman notes, it is a pretty easy fix. Just remove the circular benches and put straight benches on either side of the canopy poles. That will provide 8+ feet of walking space.
Every single feature on the walkway (railings, canopies, and benches) is designed to reduce usable space. The benches are egregious, but the rest is dumb as well. The path is too narrow to begin with. Shade is a nice thought, but those canopy poles are low and built onto the inside of the railing. You would hit your head on them riding on a bike, the guys in the vid look like they would have to crouch if they were on that side of the path. The railings are much wider than they need to be and curve inward on the path!
Basically, everything bad. Bunch of fancy pavers and silly features when all they really needed was a big concrete path with railings.
Jacksonville at its best........even with straight benches that river walk is tiny........not surprised.......
So, this one is on DDRB, right? The same review board that at first didn't have retail in the Parador Garage, and then later added undersized retail? The same review board that approved of the original layout in Brooklyn?
Seems like there might be a real problem here between visions of Downtown.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2015, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on February 12, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
The benches and those canvas things need to just come out altogether. The path is too narrow even without them.
The canvas canopies offer shade which will is very important. As CM redman notes, it is a pretty easy fix. Just remove the circular benches and put straight benches on either side of the canopy poles. That will provide 8+ feet of walking space.
tufsu1 not picking on you but are you a member of the DDRB? Just asking.
^ WOW! I understand a Noone post!
This project came to DDRB prior to my appointment. That said, they likely would have reviewed the general concept and types of materials. I believe the full details (like circular benches vs. straight benches) would have been approved by the permitting agencies.
Quote from: Bridges on February 12, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
So, this one is on DDRB, right? The same review board that at first didn't have retail in the Parador Garage, and then later added undersized retail? The same review board that approved of the original layout in Brooklyn?
DDRB did not approve the Parador Garage without retail. Their comments are precisely why there is a retail component planned. DDRB also did not approve the original layout in Brooklyn. Their comments led to at least two revisions, moving several buildings to the street.
^So you guys missed this one? How does this happen?
^Hey, On a side note when they have this squeeze walk, run, bicycle, opening grand ceremonies everyone should be holding hands especially at the end by the DCPS building and next to Healthy Town and be singin Kumbaya.
WTF- Want to Fish?
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Why are the outide railings anchored to the horizontal surface and why are the railings so wide wasting 1 to 2 feet of usable pathway? Safety? Durability? Looks to me like the basic width was adequate until the railings, benches and canopies were added.
It's definitely much more narrow in width than the wooden version it replaced. Considering all we've heard about this is how it could accommodate both cyclist and pedestrians, I wonder why it was not build at the same width as the old riverwalk?
With that said, at 8' wide, the limited space has to be utilized properly to the max. The railings, benches (even the straight ones), and canopies are all designed in ways that do the complete opposite of better utilizing limited space.
Someone, or more likely a number of people, dropped the ball on this big time. Unfortunately, it's not even surprising at this point.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 10:48:06 AM
With that said, at 8' wide, the limited space has to be utilized properly to the max. The railings, benches (even the straight ones), and canopies are all designed in ways that do the complete opposite of better utilizing limited space.
I disagree. I think there are good reasons for the railing design (more ship like and safety)...and I think the benches and canopies encourage people to linger....I don't think it was designed to primarily be a biking/skating/running path.
These things are all fine and dandy and can be easily accommodated.....when the width of the path isn't reduced to something as minimal as 8' in. At 8', it's short sighted thinking at best because the actual usable width is much less than that.
Areas for lingering that don't impact the travelway/throughway should be included.....or it should have been built at the same width it was before.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 12:05:01 PM
These things are all fine and dandy and can be easily accommodated.....when the width of the path isn't reduced to something as minimal as 8' in. At 8', it's short sighted thinking at best because the actual usable width is much less than that.
Areas for lingering that don't impact the travelway/throughway should be included.....or it should have been built at the same width it was before.
Yep. I can't conceive of a reason why they didn't just keep the same width - or why no one figured out this was going to be a problem.
The old riverwalk was 15' wide. There were many areas with benches on both sides (3' wide benches). The new riverwalk is 14' wide with benches on one side (talking about the straight benches) and a 16" wide handrail on the other. It is nearly the same usable walking area for the most part as the old riverwalk. The curved benches do restrict some and should be addressed, but overall, it is almost the same.
Also, there are a few wider gathering areas on the walk where this isn't a problem.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 13, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
Yep. I can't conceive of a reason why they didn't just keep the same width - or why no one figured out this was going to be a problem.
I reckon cost. This structure is much more significant than the old wood one. Looking at the video it looks like it's concrete which would probably mean pillars, these things are expensive.
I'm glad the built it to last, but it's unfortunate it's not built for growth.
Were there any meetings where the public could attend in which the design was discussed?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 10:48:06 AM
It's definitely much more narrow in width than the wooden version it replaced. Considering all we've heard about this is how it could accommodate both cyclist and pedestrians, I wonder why it was not build at the same width as the old riverwalk?
With that said, at 8' wide, the limited space has to be utilized properly to the max. The railings, benches (even the straight ones), and canopies are all designed in ways that do the complete opposite of better utilizing limited space.
+1
New story on this now up on News4Jax site. Have to tell you it is brutal reading. Does nobody proof these stories before they throw them up on their websites?!? Also interesting to see the designer of said project and his comments. Hmmmm
(http://www.news4jax.com/image/view/-/31218464/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/1458c3rz/-/NewRiverwalk1-jpg.jpg)
Well the article sums it up. Bikes aren't allowed.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 13, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 12:05:01 PM
These things are all fine and dandy and can be easily accommodated.....when the width of the path isn't reduced to something as minimal as 8' in. At 8', it's short sighted thinking at best because the actual usable width is much less than that.
Areas for lingering that don't impact the travelway/throughway should be included.....or it should have been built at the same width it was before.
Yep. I can't conceive of a reason why they didn't just keep the same width - or why no one figured out this was going to be a problem.
when you get out there you will see that it is a very different structure than before. in most places, it is not directly connected to land. This may have been just a construction method, a way to save money, and/or a way to have less impact on the river.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 06:51:34 PM
Well the article sums it up. Bikes aren't allowed.
they weren't allowed on the previous southbank either
Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 07:17:47 PM
Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.
Well it wouldn't be the first time he didn't know what he was talking about.
The video says bike wills be allowed and the article says they won't be. One is wrong.
While nobody knows what the heck is going on and remember the city council had to jump in with 2014-190 to make up for the 900' shortened Southbank Riverwalk. The next big story is the Super Duper Secret Downtown Docking zone map. Spoke with Scott Wilson 2/13/15 and he was going to FIND out about the lengths of the 2 NEW floating docks. Who will be telling our Regional partners about that story? This is still the Don and Scott show until July 1 when redistricting takes effect and this is no longer in District 4.
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Quote from: iMarvin on February 14, 2015, 02:19:30 AM
The video says bike wills be allowed and the article says they won't be. One is wrong.
I'm guessing the article is wrong seeing that the builder mentions bikes in this video http://www.news4jax.com/news/city-addresses-concern-about-new-southbank-riverwalk/31256322
And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.
(http://asae2015.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BikeOnRiverfront.jpg)
A lot of people here want stuff like a bike share program to be implemented in this city. If that's the case, we ultimately have to design our facilities to be multimodal friendly. This would include riverwalks, IMO.
I don't know the rules or parameters of what was done with the Southbank Riverwalk but I suspect it's more narrow in width due to capital cost concerns. Nevertheless, if cyclist are allowed (which would be ideal for a goal of increasing bike/ped connectivity, creating an environment for bike share, etc.), it would have been better to maintain a 10' to 12' minimum clear area of width along the entire route.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bicycle_pedestrian/publications/sidewalk2/sidewalks214.cfm
In such a scenario, benches, sails, etc. would be best placed in locations that don't result in them penetrating that clear area. The images of Detroit's International Riverwalk are two of many examples of how you can accommodate benches, etc. when you don't have much width to play with.
(http://trailsmichigan.com/p7IGM_images/35_Detroit%20RiverWalk/fullsize/8_fs.JPG)
Quote from: edjax on February 13, 2015, 11:32:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 07:17:47 PM
Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.
Well it wouldn't be the first time he didn't know what he was talking about.
he's actually very informed and dedicated to bike issues in town
Quote from: peestandingup on February 14, 2015, 05:20:22 AM
And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.
many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"
yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues
The title "Riverwalk" implies movement, whether pedestrian, runners or bikes. Cost restraints may have contributed to a narrow path but an occasional widening for benches for the weary would not break the bank and no one would get a kick in the teeth as a biker dismounts. Still a chance for a retrofit?
The easiest way to retrofit is removal of benches that penetrate the minimal desired clear area for bike/ped interaction.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2015, 09:24:46 AM
Quote from: edjax on February 13, 2015, 11:32:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2015, 07:17:47 PM
Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.
Well it wouldn't be the first time he didn't know what he was talking about.
he's actually very informed and dedicated to bike issues in town
Ok, seems like if such the big advocate for bikes he would have been on top of this issue then before it was built. Guess not thugh.
It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years. You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.
^^^+100
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2015, 09:26:22 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on February 14, 2015, 05:20:22 AM
And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.
many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"
yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues
Are we really gonna do this? Its meant to be a wide multi-use pedestrian path (which also includes bikes) & we all know it, so why hamper cyclists with such a crap design? Besides, what effects them will ultimately effect other non-cycling pedestrians as well.
Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.
This is the 2007 Downtown Action Plan that we just knocked the dust off. Ron Barton where are you? So you bring it back and the width part should have been reviewed throughout the process. The bike guys should have the pedal to the metal instead of it turning into a cycle red light camera zone.
As for the Northbank bottleneck that will and should be corrected with the Landing redo. In fact I believe the DIA just appropriated some money and I want to say 100K to look at the project again. I welcome any correction to that. The biggest news story yet to come is the Don and Scott show and the Waterways coverup when it comes to economic watercraft opportunity on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River in our CRA/DIA zone.
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Quote from: edjax on February 14, 2015, 11:10:08 AM
It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years. You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.
Except the actual presentation provided to the public is the purpose of this exact thread. The presentation is really detailed and well put together. However, it does give the viewer the impression of something much wider than the section/benches in the Redman video. Take a look for yourself:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670756667_BSsRqNs-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670757154_tkxJGmL-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670757727_DvRkjxJ-M.jpg)
(http://www.news4jax.com/image/view/-/31218464/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/1458c3rz/-/NewRiverwalk1-jpg.jpg)
So I'd argue the issue is somewhat different.
Quote from: peestandingup on February 14, 2015, 11:57:30 AM
Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.
the difference is that path is literally about 5' wide...and this is at least double that, not including the benches.
The problem isn't the path width....it is the amenities.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 14, 2015, 02:49:58 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 14, 2015, 11:10:08 AM
It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years. You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.
Except the actual presentation provided to the public is the purpose of this exact thread. The presentation is really detailed and well put together. However, it does give the viewer the impression of something much wider than the section/benches in the Redman video. Take a look for yourself:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670756667_BSsRqNs-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670757154_tkxJGmL-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2670757727_DvRkjxJ-M.jpg)
(http://www.news4jax.com/image/view/-/31218464/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/1458c3rz/-/NewRiverwalk1-jpg.jpg)
So I'd argue the issue is somewhat different.
And nobody noticed while under construction for e past year that it didn't look the same as presentation? I know what you are saying but people showed up for the public presentations o. 295 too and I am guessing what they saw didn't look like they ended up with either. Again just all the complaining after the project is nearly done seems pointless. I guess nobody wandered down there to check it out the past year of construction to see if didn't match the presentation or cared enough to check it out. Isn't the designer of the project a member on here and regular contributor?
Quote from: peestandingup on February 14, 2015, 11:57:30 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2015, 09:26:22 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on February 14, 2015, 05:20:22 AM
And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.
many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"
yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues
Are we really gonna do this? Its meant to be a wide multi-use pedestrian path (which also includes bikes) & we all know it, so why hamper cyclists with such a crap design? Besides, what effects them will ultimately effect other non-cycling pedestrians as well.
Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.
If there are no bikes allowed on I would not see an issue really. Been to the NYC Highline?? Very narrow in spots and with many many more people using it than will ever use the Riverwalk and that seems to work fine. To me bikes really shouldn't be on it, just because a pedestrian walkway does it mean bikes should be included. I see lots of sidewalks where bikes are prohibited for obvious reasons. Bikes not allowed on the Highline either.
Following is email from C. Flagg on the issue.
From: Flagg, Chris
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 2:09 PM
To: Fallin, Thomas
Subject: RE: Southbank Riverwalk - Access Width - CM Redman
Hey Tom:
Thank you very much for reaching out to me and I'm happy to explain our design reasoning for the subject item.
While in our initial design phase, an immediate request arose from multiple sources, ie; the COJ, the JEDC (at the time) and from residents, to insure that whenever possible, shade was of utmost importance. It was noted at that time, the Northbank riverwalk had fallen significantly short of increasing shade areas for pedestrians, so we intended to create areas to accommodate that program item. Landscaping was not an option due to the concrete design of the replacement structure. Thus, the shade sails were chosen as the alternative shade providing structures. They became a principal design element within the project and due to the multiple restrictions due to the walk's width and length, strategic planning was necessary to ensure that we could provide adequate pedestrian shade areas, along with achieving, within budgets, proper walkway widths for the length of the project. You will notice that at all shade sail locations, the walk width is totally shaded by the sail. The benches were provided and manufactured to our specifications, to not only provide seating, but to provide head height protection to pedestrians due to the limited width and ground mounting capacity of this shade sail design. Because of the limitations on walkway width, we had to choose a bench manufacturer that could provide the circular seating to maximize all of our above concerns. A straight bench cannot work with this shade sail as it presents to many pedestrian hazards. Our bench and shade solution was one of many considered and was finalized after much thought and effort was put into the final design intent.
As for bicycles, although we provide bike racks and varying walkway widths throughout the length of the design in order to accentuate certain points of interest in our overall design, the intent was to have it available for the casual bike user and was not meant to create any bike/pedestrian conflicts for various safety and liability reasons. It was always thought that the pedestrian would have the benefit of right-of-way and that bikers would be considerate enough to dismount at high pedestrian use areas, seating areas and gathering spaces. There was never any conversation regarding any serious bike routing on this riverwalk in the context of races, competitions or even any fast riding. Therefore, all walkway widths, pass through points, etc., all meet or exceed safety and handicapped accessibility requirements for pedestrians. Lastly, the COJ program criteria was for the walkway to be built all over water, so widths and length became a very important element of consideration in order to have all of the most important elements of the design intact.
With that being said, I was also involved in the "San Marco by Design" effort sponsored by the COJ a couple of years ago, and it was pointed out at that time that the Southbank Riverwalk would be a critical pedestrian path to encircle the southbank area and that it COULD be used by bikers, but with considerations and limitations. The primary function is as a walkway, not a bikeway. I was part of the initial visioning plan effort for the Riverplace Blvd redevelopment plans as well, and it was of high importance for any new road design to contain a dedicated bikeway to be used in accordance to all context sensitive street design criteria. That would provide the overall circumnavigation of the southbank neighborhood by bike, as desired by the residence.
Also, during the multiple iterations related to redesign of the river walk, its length and its access points fluctuated a number of times so that there were not always proper connection points that would serve both the pedestrian and biker due to narrow walks, through-building access, etc.
To summarize, with all of the early program, design and budget restrictions, the most effective solutions to provide an exciting pedestrian walkway to serve the community as a destination, gathering point and river front interpretation opportunity, were implemented to maximize the best solution for all users.
I apologize for the lengthy explanation, but due to the complexity of the design, much thought and consideration was addressed for all potential users and although maybe not totally ideal, it will serve our community as a wonderful riverfront destination.
I will be happy to meet personally with you, your staff, Councilman Redman, or whomever would like further clarification on this or other matters related to the Southbank design. Councilman Redman has been an ardent supporter of this effort and I fully appreciate his continued interest in its successful completion.
Thanks very much,
Chris
Christopher D. Flagg, FASLA
Director of Design – Municipal and Education Division
Haskell
111 Riverside Avenue, Jacksonville, FL 32202
Edjax, anyone outside of those involved with the project would have a hard time noticing the bench issue because they don't have access to the construction site. Nevertheless, the issue can easily be resolved....if there is a goal for bike/ped access. Just remove benches from areas where the width is significantly constrained.
But the benches where the width is an issue is where the shade sails are located and per the email to remove the benches would then have the arms for shades cause pedestrian safety. Personally I would opt for,not allowing bikes. Not unheard of for something like this.
Lake, but what about the head-clearance issue that Mr. Flagg mentions, without the circular benches? Would you take out the shade sails, too?
It's not my project, but my recommendation (based on what I know at this point) would be to take them both out in areas where they cause greater potential conflict between pedestrians and bicyclist. I'd look to relocate them to areas of the riverwalk where there's extra width to accommodate the circular seating and sails.
Quote from: edjax on February 14, 2015, 09:57:37 PM
But the benches where the width is an issue is where the shade sails are located and per the email to remove the benches would then have the arms for shades cause pedestrian safety. Personally I would opt for,not allowing bikes. Not unheard of for something like this.
Being a guy who always recommends "best practices" options as opposed to favoring one mode of mobility over another or designing to existing minimum standards, I'd say this would not be the best way to plan and design for a future vibrant city. However, given the current design and the appearance of favoring the pedestrian over the cyclist for this particular project, this is also another option to consider.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 15, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
Quote from: edjax on February 14, 2015, 09:57:37 PM
But the benches where the width is an issue is where the shade sails are located and per the email to remove the benches would then have the arms for shades cause pedestrian safety. Personally I would opt for,not allowing bikes. Not unheard of for something like this.
Being a guy who always recommends "best practices" options as opposed to favoring one mode of mobility over another or designing to existing minimum standards, I'd say this would not be the best way to plan and design for a future vibrant city. However, given the current design and the appearance of favoring the pedestrian over the cyclist for this particular project, this is also another option to consider.
I'd vote for traffic signals on the southbank before an all out banning of bikes on it. Jax is already sorely behind compared to similar sized (and even smaller) cities in FL & a lot of the country when it comes to our cycling infrastructure/safety. Taking away a big chunk of arguably one of the safest, most used & full featured paths for them would be an absolute last resort IMO. Plus, it would set a bad precedent.
Just got back from the Southbank Riverwalk and the brand NEW bicycle rack is in the grass next to the Charthouse. Went to the DCPS building and all I can say is Dr. Vitti tear down that fence to the St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new Super Duper restricted CRA/DIA 4.8 mile rivers edge zone.
Tony Lopez the new Parks guy you may want to get over to Bee and Utah and identify that Waterfront Public Access Street end? Tera Meeks too.
How about Mr Vitti, sell that property and move the school board off the river.
^That will eventually happen. I'd give the new guy Dr. Vitti an A if he told the region that this space next to the restricted Southbank Riverwalk is a hand launch SUP (Ashley Smith Juarez) or a Wind Surfing (Scott Shine), or a Tom Ingram (kayak launch) in this new according to a CRA consultant 4.8 miles river edge zone from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge.
Does anyone who was there remember the standing ovation that Dr. Vitti received at the Vision 2025 ceremony when he arrived late because he went over the wrong bridge. Where is the St. Johns Riverkeeper on this?
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: Noone on August 02, 2013, 01:12:51 AM
Quote from: coredumped on August 01, 2013, 10:17:32 AM
It looks real good. One question though - is that dock going to be a public dock?
That is a great question! So what is the answer? The picture of the floating dock in 32 is one huge dock. Where was that taken.
Let's all remember that the RAM dock is only open when RAM is open and is shut out for any and all Public and economic opportunity for everyone else in our new highly restricted DIA zone. That is a fact.
Will this dock come before the Jacksonville Waterways Commission? Councilman Gulliford will you send it to Councilman Redman the new chair of Waterways? Coredumped nails it!
The Public Trust has been completely and totally destroyed when it comes to economic opportunity to our Waterways Downtown.
At a recent Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA and sitting next to Scott Wilson (back me up on this Scott) I asked if anyone wanted to pull up to the floating dock that is right now there at the 40 plus acre SHIPYARDS property and get out and use it the answer from Tony Allegretti and Paul Crawford was a HUGE NO! NO! NO!
So be concerned if you think that this new dock is for everyone. pick and choose the winners and losers.
2013-384 - Hogans Creek will an amendment be attached for 24/7 access? Active legislation.
2013-373- Regulatory Compliance Coordinator. What is that? For who? Active legislation.
And my favorite. The Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, 26' Berkman Floating dock compromise misrepresented by OGC to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission during the 2013 FIND grant application process.
So what was the length of the old dock? What is the length of the new dock?
Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA today at 4pm. 1st floor city hall.
A new Authority
Embrace it
Or
It will Embrace us
Are we still number 1?
Spoke with Scott Wilson on 2/18/15 and he was going to check on the width of the 270' of Southbank Riverwalk dock space. How ironic it would be that the width of the floating dock could be wider than the Riverwalk and all that dock space that a portion of it has been given to one vendor with a 10 year no compete clause.
Are we still number 1?
JEA- Building Community? Yeah Right
DCPS
DIA- Downtown Is Adrift
Should there be an ADA HANDICAPPED Parking and watercraft hand launch spot at the end of the Southbank Riverwalk for the wheelchair gang?
Why pull up an 8 month old thread to ramble?? What does JEA have to do with the Riverwalk? Just curious.
^Because the ADA HANDICAPPED parking spot is IMPORTANT for the COMMUNITY.
Hmm didn't know JEA was responsible for parking for the Riverwalk.... Learn something new everyDAY
Public, Private, Partnership?
Quote from: camarocane on October 05, 2015, 08:43:59 AM
Why pull up an 8 month old thread to ramble?? What does JEA have to do with the Riverwalk? Just curious.
COJ
FIND
Shad Khan
Why aren't you?
Anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys 2014-412?
Visit Jacksonville!
Typical Noone post.
Quote from: acme54321 on October 05, 2015, 08:35:35 PM
Quote from: camarocane on October 05, 2015, 08:43:59 AM
Why pull up an 8 month old thread to ramble?? What does JEA have to do with the Riverwalk? Just curious.
COJ
FIND
Shad Khan
Why aren't you?
We are so LOST.
Plan on joining Mark Woods and doing a RICO loop.
I am Downtown and why you aren't.
Quote from: Noone on August 02, 2013, 01:12:51 AM
Quote from: coredumped on August 01, 2013, 10:17:32 AM
It looks real good. One question though - is that dock going to be a public dock?
That is a great question! So what is the answer? The picture of the floating dock in 32 is one huge dock. Where was that taken.
Let's all remember that the RAM dock is only open when RAM is open and is shut out for any and all Public and economic opportunity for everyone else in our new highly restricted DIA zone. That is a fact.
Will this dock come before the Jacksonville Waterways Commission? Councilman Gulliford will you send it to Councilman Redman the new chair of Waterways? Coredumped nails it!
The Public Trust has been completely and totally destroyed when it comes to economic opportunity to our Waterways Downtown.
At a recent Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA and sitting next to Scott Wilson (back me up on this Scott) I asked if anyone wanted to pull up to the floating dock that is right now there at the 40 plus acre SHIPYARDS property and get out and use it the answer from Tony Allegretti and Paul Crawford was a HUGE NO! NO! NO!
So be concerned if you think that this new dock is for everyone. pick and choose the winners and losers.
2013-384 - Hogans Creek will an amendment be attached for 24/7 access? Active legislation.
2013-373- Regulatory Compliance Coordinator. What is that? For who? Active legislation.
And my favorite. The Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, 26' Berkman Floating dock compromise misrepresented by OGC to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission during the 2013 FIND grant application process.
So what was the length of the old dock? What is the length of the new dock?
Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA today at 4pm. 1st floor city hall.
A new Authority
Embrace it
Or
It will Embrace us
Will an ADA HANDICAPPED PARKING watercraft hand launch and parking spot be celebrated, included, recognized at the Southbank Riverwalk at the DCPS building next to the JEA (Healthy Town) property?
Councilwoman Boyer, Susan Grandin, Scott Wilson, where are you?
Take a line from the recent column by Mark Woods from the 10/17/15 Florida Times Union when describing the parking conditions for the watercraft docked on the Northbank. "NO PARKING PER POLICE ORDER" "KISMET ONLY"
Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting 7 days out. Anyone going? Text your favorite council member because the emails aren't working.
Can I pay and or raise money for a sign (Not a snipe sign) that says:
"WHEELCHAIR GANG" "KEEP WHEELIN"
Visit Jacksonville!
Quote from: Noone on February 15, 2015, 05:59:34 PM
^That will eventually happen. I'd give the new guy Dr. Vitti an A if he told the region that this space next to the restricted Southbank Riverwalk is a hand launch SUP (Ashley Smith Juarez) or a Wind Surfing (Scott Shine), or a Tom Ingram (kayak launch) in this new according to a CRA consultant 4.8 miles river edge zone from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge.
Does anyone who was there remember the standing ovation that Dr. Vitti received at the Vision 2025 ceremony when he arrived late because he went over the wrong bridge. Where is the St. Johns Riverkeeper on this?
Visit Jacksonville!
At the 1/13/16 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting 2016-18 was on the agenda and approved 9-0 to be advanced to a full vote of the Jacksonville city council. Just went to coj.net and 2016-18 has been withdrawn. Have an email in to Lisa Rinaman our St. Johns Riverkeeper on a project. Maybe she knows why our 2016 FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District) OUR property tax money projects have been WITHDRAWN.