Realistically... Is construction going to commence on light/heavy/commuter/streetcar
in Jax anytime soon?
And an update on the Florida East Coast Railway..
Ock?
Action News thinks it may be coming soon
You can forget about LRT happening anytime soon. Don't know what Action News has but if I had to make a guess, I'd say we're still five to ten years out for either intercity or commuter rail. In the short term, my inner Nostradamus says to look for a minor Skyway extension and a major revamp of the existing bus system.
I was at a conference at UNF yesterday about the military, logistics, and the port, where a lot of the big players in these areas spoke. Because the port, logistics, and military are such big economic engines locally, people in this world have a major say in local roads, transportation, rails, etc. As such, these people are concerned with the movement of goods, not people. Unfortunately, that means more roads to cheap land and widening of roads for logistical purposes.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2013, 12:29:53 AM
You can forget about LRT happening anytime soon. Don't know what Action News has but if I had to make a guess, I'd say we're still five to ten years out for either intercity or commuter rail. In the short term, my inner Nostradamus says to look for a minor Skyway extension and a major revamp of the existing bus system.
How about AAF, Amtrak to Miami and the station for them downtown? Any short term (5 year) hope for them?
Once AAF gets the Orlando to Miami segment up and running they will start their ridership and cost estiamte studies to Jacksonville. Could be 5-10 years.
^Yeah, I figure AAF would still be roughly five years out or so, "assuming" everything worked perfectly.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2013, 12:29:53 AM
You can forget about LRT happening anytime soon. Don't know what Action News has but if I had to make a guess, I'd say
here's what Action News (or more accurately, the TPO and its consultant) say
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/St-Augustine-train-stations/9wef3tgvbU-8It80chGCyw.cspx
Quote from: CityLife on July 31, 2013, 09:29:14 AM
I was at a conference at UNF yesterday about the military, logistics, and the port, where a lot of the big players in these areas spoke. Because the port, logistics, and military are such big economic engines locally, people in this world have a major say in local roads, transportation, rails, etc. As such, these people are concerned with the movement of goods, not people. Unfortunately, that means more roads to cheap land and widening of roads for logistical purposes.
oh I think many of them are interested in rail too....it just happens to be freight rail
I fully expect the pro-port folks to get the new regional transportation commission to priortize funding (read taxes) for dredging of the river.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 31, 2013, 11:29:30 AM
^Yeah, I figure AAF would still be roughly five years out or so, "assuming" everything worked perfectly.
For what it's worth, one of the employees of AAF (it's a very small team, just a handful of people) lives in Jax because he prefers it. So he commutes down to South FL. Obviously he has a rooting interest in bringing this up here eventually.
But anyway, it's a potential future phase, and phase one is still in the early stages. So it'll be awhile.
What I would like to see play out in order of my personal priorities.
1. Modest Skyway expansion to Brooklyn
2. Streetcar into Riverside(King street)
3. Street car From Atlantic beach to South Jax Beach
4. Commuter rail St. Augustine to down town. ( Maybe 4 runs a day)
5. Commuter rail Greencove to Downtown (Robust Service)
6. Commuter rail S line from Gateway to downtown.
7. Expand Streetcar riverside to San Juan
8. Streetcar to stadium.
9. Streetcar to Edward Waters(or perhaps skyway)
10. Streetcar from Beach to UNF, Town center, St Vincents south and commuter rail at JTB or the Avenues.
^^I like that list.
Quote from: TD* on July 30, 2013, 10:52:13 PM
Realistically... Is construction going to commence on light/heavy/commuter/streetcar
in Jax anytime soon?
And an update on the Florida East Coast Railway..
Ock?
Okay boys and girls, I've been largely missing from the MJ scene lately as I've been involved in such a project fairly close to home and otherwise fighting off neurosurgery at the VA.
First a reality check. While I realize a good portion of the publishers and readers of MJ are rabid Obama (and otherwise liberal) supporters, his popularity numbers are in the tank and getting worse. If indeed there is a jump in healthcare premiums as is now expected, the entire house is likely to fall in on the Democrats for another 4-8 years. I have no illusions about the Republicans supporting Amtrak, but I can tell you at the Congressional level a VERY positive and workable plan that would privatize the network, even expanding it, is being heard. As Obama/Biden have been a complete dud - all talk - no action on any meaningful Amtrak expansion, and as Bill and Hillary and their sidekick Al Gore were equally impotent on rail the time could be ripe for a new direction. What I do not see, even under the worst conditions, a Republican or any other administration doing any grave damage to Amtrak, protected as it is by myriad congressional districts.
1). AMTRAK, Amtrak is still 'interested' in serving Jacksonville from downtown, but as JTA is in a perpetual state of paralysis due in no small part to the grandiose JRTC scheme.
As the city jumps off the cliff with a new Greyhound station (The cover talk for this is "Phase one of the Regional Transportation Center - The Intercity Bus Element,' and I quote, "More like an arboretum then a bus station," any hope for a true Transportation Center is disappearing before our eyes. The numbskulls in city council cannot understand how a bus station makes a bit of difference in the development of the Center and LaVilla in general.
SO WHAT IF THEY MOVE IT OFF BY ITSELF, "ITS ONLY GREYHOUND..." (Bill Bishop). If anyone else has drank the Cool Aid let me repeat,
THIS IS NOT A INTERCITY BUS ELEMENT OF A MULTI-MODAL/MULTI-CARRIER TRANSPORTATION CENTER! IT IS A GREYHOUND STATION, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS! This my friends is a classic example of pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining. Suffice it to say I've chatted with Dave Leach (CEO/GL) several times, and Greyhound Lines not only has no problem waiting a bit more for a better CONSOLIDATED station, but they are rather excited at the prospect. So has this idea gone from Jax to Greyhound? Not a chirp in a carload. With all of this smoke and mirrors going on, is it any wonder that nothing has progressed on moving Amtrak back downtown.
Various intercity, commuter and light rail projects all across the country have fueled an explosion of billions of dollars worth of new downtown investment. With Amtrak isolated in a lean-to structure south of a dysfunctional lilliputian convention center and Greyhound abandoned to a field of wild onions 8 blocks from nothing, we're off to a typical Jacksonville start. Yet things are happening, All Aboard Florida is very likely coming to town, albeit I don't expect more then token service. Unless Washington DC, Georgia, Amtrak or Pullman (yes they're back) actually make a move there will be next to no connectivity to 'points north.'
2). COMMUTER RAIL JetffreyS nailed it as I anticipate this becoming reality, 4-6 daily trains to St Augustine, very likely single car or self propelled rail car with a possibility that one might run as far south as Palm Coast/Daytona Beach, and 6-10 trains on the Green Cove Springs route, possibly one running through, to and from Palatka. The 'A' line route will be operated by FDOT/JTA/CSX and the East Coast route will be operated by the Florida East Coast under a contract. Either route is at least 10 years down the track.
3). ALL ABOARD FLORIDA, This is NOT high speed rail, it is NOT commuter rail, it IS simply a revival of higher speed - conventional trains (aka: Amtrak like equipment with much better interior designs). AAF is happening under a Republican Governor that may have presidential longings and as I have said before, this is not as private as it might sound at first blush. A big red state is developing a intercity passenger rail system with huge incentives for private operation... perfect model for the future in the USA.
Unfortunately with our 'public be damned transportation center' we won't be able to offer the 8 city blocks to an aggressive company like AAF/FEC, in fact we have little to offer, period. If these trains are going to fly in Jacksonville, you'd better pray JTA/COJ comes to it's senses and that AMTRAK/GA/DC etc... adds connectivity to points north. Keep in mind Amtrak once operated 10-12 daily trains from various points through Jacksonville and deeper into Florida, Jimmy Carter took care of that and nobody has moved to change it, AAF might be our best hope.
Do not expect AAF will propose or operate '18 daily trains' to Jacksonville as they are planning in Orlando, expect 2 or 3, until connectivity changes. Meanwhile you caten bet that Amtrak and the FEC/AAF are talking, it is entirely possible the trains could operate conjoined. Time frame 5-10 years with a chance of a token operation beforehand.
4). STREETCAR, Notice how no further studies have taken place? Notice how the mobility plan was defanged? Notice how streetcar vanished from 'Making Moves,' and the front page?
JTA is now refocused on a complete reevaluation of the entire system, a job likely to consume another 2-3 years. Otherwise they are still preaching the National Bus Rapid Transit Institutes slogan, 'Just like rail - only cheaper.' The agency has obviously never looked up the definition of the word 'cheap.' Worse then BRT is BRT that is not BRT and THAT BRT IS WHAT WE ARE GETTING. THUD! BRT is ranked in four standards, gold, silver and bronze. The USA doesn't have a single true 'gold standard BRT' operation though everyone promotes it 'as-if.' So is JTA going for the gold, meaning so high-quality that they mimic many features of rail? That's a high bar; most BRT projects in the United States (INCLUDING OURS) don't even qualify as true BRT, and so far not one has actually met the gold standard. Our frequent bus will be an improvement, make no mistake about that, but BRT it isn't.
JTA once promised a room packed with a couple hundred citizens that our BRT would be so good that "When it reaches a certain level, we'll just slide rails under it and we'll have rail." (Mike Miller) Even those promises have faded away.
5). MY CRYSTAL BALL SAYS THE BIG SECRET IS THAT JTA IS WORKING ON RAIL! But it's not streetcar and it's not commuter rail, they plan to reshape the Skyway into a Vancouver style 'Skytrain,' more properly called an AUTOMATED RAPID TRANSIT. Able to be fully automated with the ability to run on the ground and across roads, a ART could morph into a regional urban rail system in 50-60 years.
The current elevated Skyway monorail system with it's overbuilt bridge structures could be brought online and extended where ever rails lead. The rebuild could happen fairly soon, and once it's done, taking the Sky
wayTRAIN to UF Hospital, Gateway, the Airport, Beaches or anywhere else becomes much, much, more realistic. Currently ART's are operating in:
BOMBARDIER INNOVIA ART- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Malaysia
Kuala Lumpur
BOMBARDIER INNOVIA ART - Yongin, South Korea
South Korea
Yongin
BOMBARDIER INNOVIA ART - Vancouver, Canada
Canada
Vancouver
BOMBARDIER INNOVIA ART - New York, USA
United States
New York
Automated Metro - Taipei, Taiwan
Taiwan
Taipei
6). GAINESVILLE, is moving ahead with the second study to bring about a true streetcar system.
7). Serious streetcar talk is happening elsewhere in our metro area... nuff said!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 31, 2013, 05:11:59 PM
If indeed there is a jump in healthcare premiums as is now expected, the entire house is likely to fall in on the Democrats for another 4-8 years.
not to hijack the thread, but data was released today which expects health care costs in FL to go up about 5% next year....which is a far lower increase than we have been dealing with for the last two decades
and to your comment on Gainesville's streetcar study....they are engaged in their first real study and it may very well implode...the new Mayor is not a fan
This is where I am really frustrated about Jacksonville AND Florida. We and our leaders seem to be perfectly content with airports and highways that are packed to capacity but we ignore the alternatives that could help us create a more well-rounded transportation system. I have traveled on Amtrak to various cities and I have been envious of how they are doing things right where we are doing things wrong. From the simple concept of having an Amtrak station in the urban core to the idea of developing real commuter rail, we seem to be happy with complacency. If we really took this issue seriously, we at least would have revived passenger rail service to Los Angeles via the Sunset Limited. That would create connectivity for those who d not feel like driving down Interstate 10 to Tallahassee and Pensacola. It's a shame that our leaders are not doing a thing to remedy anything that does not suck down gas like a bobby soxer at a soda fountain.
Oh, ock you come through again with a post that is highly informative but half rant. I would expect nothing less.
I have heard rumblings that they are looking at a streetcar system for Tallahassee, which would actually make a lot of sense... however, no official study or anything has been done.
Well i take that back, the Fsu DURP has done study after study, and consultants have looked into its viability, but it looks like reality is
10-15 years at best.
Why must we elect such inept leadership? It seems like if we got the old folks out of leadership positions and let people who give a damn about transportation, shit would happen.
My guess is Jax will have a streetcar before Tally. There's a funding mechanism already in place to generate the cash over a 10 year period. If we don't end up with one, it will be because the money that will be accumulated for it, would end up getting spent on something else.
Quote from: TD* on August 01, 2013, 12:57:57 AM
I have heard rumblings that they are looking at a streetcar system for Tallahassee, which would actually make a lot of sense... however, no official study or anything has been done.
Well i take that back, the Fsu DURP has done study after study, and consultants have looked into its viability, but it looks like reality is
10-15 years at best.
FSU DURP did an initial study about 2 years ago....and now there is a more detailed study (beyond feasibility) underway.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 01, 2013, 01:41:39 AM
My guess is Jax will have a streetcar before Tally. There's a funding mechanism already in place to generate the cash over a 10 year period. If we don't end up with one, it will be because the money that will be accumulated for it, would end up getting spent on something else.
Another courthouse? ;)
Was I ranting? OH MY! Must be me!
Stephen, LOL, I don't do TV... It's funny to me that when we mention a weak spot (long-distance rail) in the national platform, the focus is immediately turned into a flippant 'You got that from Fox News.' FACT is, the president has done NOTHING for Amtrak Long-Distance, the part of the system that will effect us. The Republicans have never been effective in eliminating Amtrak. Like it or not, Amtrak itself was a Republican creation and the most damage ever done to the national network is when Jimmy Carter (Democrat) axed:
Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities-Butte-Seattle/Portland 'NORTH COAST HIAWATHA'
Washington-Catlettsburg KY 'HILLTOPPER'
Chicago-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Jacksonville-Miami/Tampa 'FLORIDIAN'
New York-Washington-Charleston-Jacksonville-Miami/Tampa 'CHAMPION'
New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-St.Louis-Kansas City 'NATIONAL LIMITED'
Chicago-Kansas City-Wichita-Oklahoma City-Dallas-Houston 'LONE STAR'
Cheering for rail won't make it happen.
Currently in Florida we have:
SARASOTA STREETCAR INITIATIVE - https://www.facebook.com/sarasotastreetcar.initiative
PINELLAS (ST PETERSBURG) LIGHT RAIL - http://youtu.be/Vzs8A934F4Q
GAINESVILLE STREETCAR - http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planGainesvilleNews01.htm
ORLANDO - I-DRIVE STREETCAR - (This plan is being revised almost daily)
http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2010/01/18/story1.html
FORT LAUDERDALE STREETCAR - http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planFtLauderdaleNews07.htm
MIAMI BEACH STREETCAR - http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planMiamiNews01.htm
TAMPA - LIGHT RAIL - http://tbo.com/news/politics/hillsborough-planners-consider-revised-light-rail-proposal-576810
EDGEWATER ('RESTORATION, FLORIDA') - http://bettercities.net/article/next-generation-florida-project-includes-streetcar-19078
JACKSONVILLE STREETCAR - http://futureplans.jtafla.com/Streetcars/Pages/default.aspx
MOST IMPORTANTLY
TALLAHASSEE (STATE CAPITAL) - http://www.talgov.com/planning/planning-trans-master-transport.aspx