Jacksonville's libraries should not be closed!
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8118-p1180005.JPG)
A Jacksonville resident reaches out to Metro Jacksonville to share his concerns about the possible closing of several public library branch locations across the city.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-jul-jacksonvilles-libraries-should-not-be-closed
How many branches should there be? To go to extremes, one can imagine a branch every three miles throughout the county. To the other extreme, one can imagine perhaps only two branches, along with the main downtown library. Somewhere between these extremes lies the best, or ideal, number of branches .... a balance one might say.
The balance is determined by measuring the need/demand for, and measuring the ability to pay for, the branch libraries.
Exceeding demand approaches frivolity and waste, while an extreme failure to meet demand, approaches neglect and shame, because what is at stake is the learning and exploring resources for the young.
Therefore, it is critical to somehow measure the demand or need for branch libraries. How does one measure demand?
The other component affecting the desired balance is that of the ability to pay for the branches, and it arrives upon the scene with more difficulty and sincerity now because of the poor economy.
The ability to pay is affected by two components; by the size of tax revenue gathered from citizens, and by the decisions made by those in government concerning how to divide the spending of the revenue.
Therefore, the balance as to the correct number of library branches, if it is to be achieved, is a consequence of measuring the need/demand, and is a consequence of proper tax revenue effort against the decisions as to the use of the revenues.
If it is true that our great concern is to be that of the education and mental enrichment of our young ... and adults, then those in positions to make decisions affecting the size of the tax revenue and the expenditures of the revenue, have before them a sober responsibility. The young are dependent for now on the decisions of adult citizens. The young are resources of great potential value to our city, and to society.
However, to allow the importance of the education of the young to cause without limit an unnecessary inflation of library branches, is to be careless and wasteful. That is why it is important to somehow accurately measure the need/demand for the branches.
Some might suggest that the need/demand for branches has decreased somewhat as a result of the Internet environment, although it is understood that some households might not have Internet access. But to assume that those few without Internet access at home deserve an otherwise unnecessary branch library near their neighborhood is unwise and costly. The reduction of branches means that some will have to travel further to a branch.
$30 million for a big TV screen and stuff at the stadium? Ultimately, at this point, who knows if the investment in the big TV and big lights/pool will have a reasonable lasting benefit to the city.... or if the expenditure will be a long term waste, and therefore another shameful decision?
But again .... It is possible, without measurement of demand for each branch, to have some waste in branches.
The young. Concern. Balance.
It seems to me that a growing modern city such as jax claims to be that we would be adding libraries...not removing them...these learning centers for the public..arent they as vital as having the largest scoreboard in the world..i wonder..of those that are making the decisions...how many have had to use the library ...another example of the haves trumping the have nots...there seems to be cash for the wrong things
Both Alachua County (Gainesville) and Orange County (Orlando) have special dedicated funding for their library systems which are fantastic. They can do long range planning since they can project what their funding will be from year to year.
They have adult literacy programs, English classes, job search classes, computer classes, kid's reading programs, outstanding periodical collections, classes in how to use the library collections for research and they are open seven days a week until 9PM.
They are heavily used by everyone in the community.
I was collecting signatures for the petition at Willowbranch Library (the very first branch library BTW) when a man accompanied by his two young daughters approached our table. Both girls had books in the arms to be returned. He was almost in tears when he told me that he was divorced from their mother and could only see them on the weekends. "I can't afford to take them to movies and amusement parks," he said. "Bringing them to this library is the only time I get to be a father. Please don't let them close it."
Libraries are about more than just books.
^I was just about to say that. Libraries are more than just books. I really don't see how you can achieve the type of things the community mentioned in the recent JAX 2025 visioning process via the limiting of the public's access to educational resources.
Btw, the first branch was in Wilder Park in Sugar Hill. It opened a couple of years before Willowbranch.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1505639248_xPZtC83-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.2003.feature.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-oct-lost-jacksonville-wilder-park
Unfortunately, we didn't value that library or park either and took them both out to create I-95 through the Northside. Drive down Davis Street today and I think we can all agree, replacing that community's version of Willowbranch with an expressway in the name of progress didn't work out too well for them. Why recreate the same and expect different results for the community's losing their access?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 04, 2013, 10:28:19 AM
^I was just about to say that. Libraries are more than just books.
At main it is more than books. Its also the place where a good number of the computers are used to look at porn and for the homeless to sleep.
OK that was sarcastic, but it is at times discouraging to see that giant building with so much square footage being used for a limited supply of books.
If they are to stay open how about more use of computers and funds for actual learning. Not just a place to play online games.
I think you only need to look at Duval County's educational outcomes to see the need for libraries and the amenities they offer. Do we really want that to get worse? I've said it before, but the urban core is really getting nailed here, with three of the six threatened libraries in the old city and the main library getting its hours slashed. It's sad that we've gone from expanding the system and gaining national notice, to shuttering six branches to make a budget in less than ten years.
I'm not a huge fan of special taxing districts, but considering the beating our libraries have taken since then, it's time to think outside the box.
Quote from: JHAT76 on July 04, 2013, 10:38:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 04, 2013, 10:28:19 AM
^I was just about to say that. Libraries are more than just books.
At main it is more than books. Its also the place where a good number of the computers are used to look at porn and for the homeless to sleep.
OK that was sarcastic, but it is at times discouraging to see that giant building with so much square footage being used for a limited supply of books.
If they are to stay open how about more use of computers and funds for actual learning. Not just a place to play online games.
For one thing, that's nonsense. Computers, e books and a place to use them are important parts of the modern library, whether you like the people using them or not. For another, another part of the series of budget cuts has been reducing the collection and the staff to keep it shelved. It isn't all the fault of computers.
It would be good for some of our officials to take a trip to a city to study bad practices instead of best practices. Nothing is new under the sun and it seems we are approaching many of these issues in a similar manner that other urban areas did 30-40 years ago. There are lessons we can learn if we open our eyes.
You want to see what urban core neighborhoods look like after their amenities like neighborhood schools and branch libraries are closed? Check out some of the core areas in cities like Detroit, Cincinnati, and Youngstown. It's not a pretty sight.
West End - Cincinnati
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Cincinnati-2012/i-xfgT6Vb/0/M/P1560119-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Cincinnati-2012/i-hv5j6xJ/0/M/P1560120-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Cincinnati-2012/i-8f2nhJH/0/M/P1560112-M.jpg)
Eastside - Detroit
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Eastside-Detroit-2011/i-dndwZ6M/0/M/P1460035-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Eastside-Detroit-2011/i-qDxHJ4B/0/M/P1460036-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Eastside-Detroit-2011/i-dqFvrdV/0/M/P1460038-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Eastside-Detroit-2011/i-XpPCdd6/0/M/P1460221-M.jpg)
I know we're in the Sunbelt but don't think for a minute that what has become Detroit's Eastside, can't happen locally. I'm pretty sure, in 1960, people in that community never imagined the 50 year free fall that's occurred since then.
Furthermore, the idea of closing libraries and schools is counterproductive to national trends where people are starting to select places to live and work based on that community's quality-of-life. Locally, what really seems to be ignored is the impact of closing facilities, like this, in walkable neighborhoods where they are some of the few remaining public amenities left. By not having the conversation on what role tunnel minded decision making plays in our overall urban and long term economic climate, we're literally putting the last nails in the coffins of several of our already economically distressed areas and killing our potential to economically compete in the 21st century economy.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 04, 2013, 10:47:55 AM
Quote from: JHAT76 on July 04, 2013, 10:38:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 04, 2013, 10:28:19 AM
^I was just about to say that. Libraries are more than just books.
At main it is more than books. Its also the place where a good number of the computers are used to look at porn and for the homeless to sleep.
OK that was sarcastic, but it is at times discouraging to see that giant building with so much square footage being used for a limited supply of books.
If they are to stay open how about more use of computers and funds for actual learning. Not just a place to play online games.
For one thing, that's nonsense. Computers, e books and a place to use them are important parts of the modern library, whether you like the people using them or not. For another, another part of the series of budget cuts has been reducing the collection and the staff to keep it shelved. It isn't all the fault of computers.
I don't think I stated that well. I am for more computers. What I think is silly is the fact that a giant main library was built. Capable of holding rows and rows of books in an age when more people are moving away from books. A huge building eating into the library budget with the cost of operations.
Also what irks me a bit is the call that libraries (currently) are all used for education and how people will lose the opportunity to learn when, as I stated previously, much of the usage is Facebook, online games, etc.
I would be all for directing more funds into actual educational programs, computer literacy classes, and even more books.
Quotethe smart people should be looking at how best to use this giant infrastructure investment.
Libraries arent just books. They are also real estate, buildings, meeting rooms, cultural centers and places for ongoing education, when the are working.
They are also the place where new ideas are formed and people change their lives as a result when they are at their best. That is certainly why Carnegie funded so many of them.
Great points!
Great suggestions. While not libraries, I've always wondered why the school system won't pair up with JTA for transportation or with parks & recreation for parks/maintaining grounds. I imagine we'd eliminate a ton of duplication and while offering residents a higher quality of life if with coordinated our assets.
Quote from: stephendare on July 04, 2013, 11:41:42 AM
Its a weird time. The way we deal with libraries is shitty. But libraries are also evolving and instead of looking at how to cut back money on things that our current political leadership obviously has no use for (like books with facts or useful ideas) the smart people should be looking at how best to use this giant infrastructure investment.
Libraries arent just books. They are also real estate, buildings, meeting rooms, cultural centers and places for ongoing education, when the are working.
They are also the place where new ideas are formed and people change their lives as a result when they are at their best. That is certainly why Carnegie funded so many of them.
And that is why we fund them now.
I think people tend to think in terms of a single issue at a time when it comes to public affairs, and there is this sense amongst many people that online books and resources are making books obsolete. And maybe there is some logic to that. But libraries existed before modern books existed, so the idea that information is changing format isnt really the most compelling argument that libraries are facing obsolescence.
Traditionally the Library was at the center of a great city and people would travel for many miles in order to use its resources. The branch concept was partially a way of dealing with cars as well as convenience. Imagine trying to figure out the parking nightmare if all the libraries were combined into the single building downtown and everyone had to use it instead.
But the branches became like embassies of the High Culture, embedded into every one of the neighborhoods, and over the past 80 years or so, they have made the neighborhoods walkable, and created a buzz of activity around a building whose sole purpose is to serve as a center of civilization.
So perhaps its time to have a couple of conversations in our community. First of all, the investment of generations of our city should not be able to be so lightly tossed aside by the vagaries of municipal politics. A body of half literate (one of them is functionally illiterate) city council types should not be able to cripple this investment at a penstroke.
So I support, in a limited kind of way, the idea of an independent taxing function to support the libraries.
But I also think that it is time for the libraries to redefine how they accomplish their great mission in the context of a changing society.
They did it 80 years ago with the advent of branch libraries, and the changes in our daily lives are every bit as profound as the ones brought about by federally fueled demassification and sprawl and the resulting car dependent society.
But frankly, what is happening every day at Bold Bean Cafe should be happening every day at every library. We have become a nation of autodidacts and the proper social center for that change is the very libraries and branches that we are hastening to close.
People should be using their social networks and reaching out and connecting from them. They should be using Facebook. they should be playing games, they should be learning and going to classes and pursuing whatever frivolous line of education and information that they care to pursue.
Libraries are not offices. They are the sanctuary of a seeking mind. The books are simply the tools made available to them, and that format is changing. But the mission of the library was with us before we invented paper.
Well put Stephen. I love, among other things, your ability to gather and summarize.
If we were to list all of the social and learning entities in a community, the library would stand out as something to be salvaged in spite of the seeming changes in books and the Internet. The library "is" much more than books, or places to get online.
It has served, and should continue to serve as a place for meetings, to satisfy curiosity, but also as an environment of learning, and just one more valuable place which always serves to provide a better road to heighten civilization in general. Yes, just as in all cities, we need heightened civilization in our city. In fact, we need an enlightenment.
Although there is the point of there being almost unending options in the home for solitary entertainment, learning, media access, and communication to others, the library is one of the few places where one can socialize and engage in ideas face to face outside of a lounge or a church.
So ......... onward with the push to keep as many branches a possible. Whereas I was initially focusing on the "demand" for the branches in each area of the county, perhaps the focus should be on maintaining the branches, thereby encouraging demand by maintaining the branches.
I'm not sure of the validity of comparing the expense for the stadium TV, lights, pool, etc .. to the expenses to maintain and improve the branch libraries, but perhaps the comparison could be in the conversation. For example, wasn't the agreement about the $30 million or so "city investment" made sort of behind closed doors. I don't remember the decision about the city investment being out in the open. And remember all that odd wording about the source of the city money which is destined for the stadium TV etc.? Of course, I miss lots of things.
In other words, couldn't these funds (the 30 mill) set for the "field-long lights and TV" etc have been used for the library branches? In my opinion -- and this is simply because I'm not one to be impressed by "Monster Trucks" and other technologies which seem to awe those who are less technically schooled -- the addition to the stadium of these items seems somewhat geared to the same group of people who are awed by the "monster trucks".
Might I suggest that one objective in our city is to decrease the segment in our population who are impressed by ... forgive me please ..... bimbo minded stuff like large lights and TV screens and "monster trucks". I realize that the "monster truck" events are for kids, but I use it simply to make a point... which I suspect I've failed to make. Are we somehow continuing, perhaps unconsciously, a "dumbing down" program by adding impressive huge TV screens and such? Isn't the essence of sports ... that of winning the game? I for one would be much more impressed with the stadium and the Jaguars if they were to totally win every several years.
In any case, it just might be that our use of $30 million for bimbo minded stuff such a big blinking lights, redneck stuff, (forgive me again please), and withholding its use for maintaining and enhancing facilities which could only improve all aspects of the lives who are able to use the facilities ....and might just increase the population of the "average or below average in education, and just might nudge our city further back toward the Middle Ages.. that is, as compared to other culturally vibrant cities.
If I offended anyone by using simple and perhaps inappropriate words... I'm sorry. I am trying to make sense, while using my rather limited mental tool kit.
Stephen, you said it exactly right with "centers of civilization" to describe branch libraries. They are accessible, open to all, free to all and their purpose is to educate and inform. There are not many other places that you could describe that way.
srill think this is just a scare tactic.
For those who might wish to weigh through my stuff, I just slightly modified my post No. 14, which was a response to Stephen's insightful post no. 13. I'm going for a bike ride.
Quote from: fsquid on July 04, 2013, 05:09:28 PM
srill think this is just a scare tactic.
I'm in agreement 100%. Seen it time and time again in city after city. All a mayor has to do is say I'm closing down your fire station, school, library or firing a few of those policemen that are protecting your home and family. Then average Joe says well I hate that I have to pay more in taxes, but at least I'll keep the services I've grown used to. The mayor gets his money to fund the budget, average Joe gets to keep his quality of life, everyone remains happy until the next budget comes due. Beginning to think this is just par for the course. After all who would get motivated to increase taxes or form special finance districts to fund interest payments on loans or upgrade the office furniture in the administration offices at St James? Not me. This year it is libraries, okay I'll go with it. Next year maybe it'll fire rescues turn.
It may be a scare tactic but in this case, this isn't Mayor Brown trying to scare anyone. He's the one who's taken the position that taxes aren't going to be raised, hell or high water. As long as that's the sentiment and we aren't doing anything to change our unsustainable fiscal issues, something is eventually going to have to hit the fan.
^Lake, this is about the mayor's pension deal. If the council doesn't approve it the cuts will go into effect (because he won't raise taxes). Unfortunately, various parties have noted issues with the pension deal so the libraries and other services may indeed be caught in the crossfire.
Quote from: fsquid on July 04, 2013, 05:09:28 PM
srill think this is just a scare tactic.
obviously....you don't choose aeas of community activism/involvement (like Riverside-Avondale, San Marco, and the Beaches) if it isn't your intent to get folks riled up to oppose this
We need to move the libraries out of the budget gamesmanship. Sign the petition!
More information is needed to make a fair judgement on whether to keep a library open. For example, how many unique visitors visit the library per week? How does this compare to the past 5 and 10 year numbers? To blindly ask that they all stay open without a fair assessment does not benefit either the library system or the taxpayers.
^Isn't it kind of blind to focus in on believing any library should be closed before having more information on the city's overall budget? I mean, close them and how much money do we really save in the grand scheme of things? Do that and have we even evaluated the resulting long term economic, safety, and environmental costs on the community? Sometimes to me, it seems like we spend too much time focusing on placing band aids on paper cuts while totally ignoring the leg infected with gangrene.
^I posted in another thread recently with some numbers:
Quote from: Tacachale on June 20, 2013, 10:09:04 AM
Ben, according to the FY 2011-2012 annual report, there were 4.5 million library visits. Over 218,702 people attended programs, including 13,556 at job search assistance programs. Book circulation was apparently 8.7 million, while e-book circulation was 188,693. Some of these figures appear to be down after the repeated budget, staff and hour cuts of the last few years, but despite that they're still way up since the expansion of the system in 2005.
http://jpl.coj.net/lib/Annual_Report_FY2011-12.pdf
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2012-03-07/story/jacksonville-public-library-looks-answers-future
Individual libraries have different figures, but numbers don't tell the whole story. For instance, the Southeast Regional Branch on Gate Parkway presumably has high figures: it's in a well educated area, but more importantly it's the only library in a fast growing area. Folks come from many miles to go to it. Meanwhile, the Brentwood library may have lower numbers as it's in an impoverished area and are others within a few miles of it. However, if it closed, the 2.5 mile trek the the downtown library may be a lot more daunting for a carless family from the urban Northside than it would be for, say, a Baymeadows family with 2 cars. Higher stats doesn't always mean better services or outcomes; the Brentwood library is serving an invaluable educational need for its neighborhood.
Overall use was unsurprisingly at a high after 2005 when we had just finished all the new libraries and expansions. However, soon afterward the budget cuts started; hours were cut, the collection reduced, and staff was laid off.
So, if you're going to look at the numbers you have to understand the area context as well as the changes in the system, which have often been arbitrary. And if you're going to question the value of investments like libraries, you need to ask whether we should be happy with Duval County's educational outcomes as they are at present.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on July 05, 2013, 06:27:47 PM
More information is needed to make a fair judgement on whether to keep a library open. For example, how many unique visitors visit the library per week? How does this compare to the past 5 and 10 year numbers? To blindly ask that they all stay open without a fair assessment does not benefit either the library system or the taxpayers.
Sure, cut back the hours and days of operation, stay open only during 9-5 hours, close on Sundays, then point at the figures and say, "Library usage is decreasing so we need to cut their funding even more." DUH!
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2013, 09:13:35 AM
Quote from: fsquid on July 04, 2013, 05:09:28 PM
srill think this is just a scare tactic.
obviously....you don't choose aeas of community activism/involvement (like Riverside-Avondale, San Marco, and the Beaches) if it isn't your intent to get folks riled up to oppose this
thats my thinking.
This one was in Florida Times Union last week 6/24/2013.
CLOSING LIBRARIES
Losing quality of life
Closing the libraries is never the solution. It can lead to more problems with high crime and illiteracy. There should be other alternatives to fix the budget and reduce the county's expenses.
Libraries are necessities.
Many people depend on the libraries to have access to the Internet to find jobs or to read the news. Many people borrow books from the library because they can't afford to buy them.
Many families take their children to spend their time off at the library because they can't afford to take them somewhere else. Also many seniors go to the libraries to read or to just socialize. Students and book clubs meet at the libraries.
Libraries are the source of knowledge and information, and we live in the information age. Closing the libraries is a message to the poor people that they have no right to have access to the information.
If people are not able to be informed, how can they make a right decision?
When there are no libraries, there is no culture, so there will be more crimes.
Nader Andrews,
Jacksonville
Quote from: fsquid on July 06, 2013, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2013, 09:13:35 AM
Quote from: fsquid on July 04, 2013, 05:09:28 PM
srill think this is just a scare tactic.
obviously....you don't choose aeas of community activism/involvement (like Riverside-Avondale, San Marco, and the Beaches) if it isn't your intent to get folks riled up to oppose this
thats my thinking.
The Mayor is forcing the budget cuts. The Library Board selected the branches to be closed and the hours to be cut. Of course they chose a couple of branches and days that were sure to cause the most outrage. They are a pretty smart bunch and no strangers to how the budget process works.
The Mayor made a really dumb move with his across the board cuts rather than setting priorities and the Library Board is making him pay the political price for it.
If one believes that one of the most important objectives to achieve in our county is that of improved education and overall cultural enhancement, closing any libraries and decreasing hours will certainly make more difficult the achievement of those objectives.
Although the conveyance of information, ideas, and instruction to citizens, young and old, can be somewhat accomplished via television and the Internet, these media are prone to change, frivolities, and warpage due to the need for advertising, and due to the impact of controlling entities swayed by obsession with profits.
Books and libraries are traditional, stable, and more prone to offer genuine and fundamental aspects of media, learning, and the cultural qualities we need in the environment. A minimum quantity of libraries seem to be necessary for ensuring that knowledge, and a social environment encouraging its spread, as offered in books and the library itself, is available to all citizens in the county.
FYI, the Board of Library Trustees publicly posts the minutes of their monthly Board meetings, which are open to the public. Public comments may be made at the start of the meeting. The draft of the minutes from their June 13, 2013, meeting (see "Strategic Discussion: FY14 Budget Update") tells some of the back story about their struggles with and latest responses to the City budget cuts:
http://jpl.coj.net/lib/boardreports/06-13-13-DRAFT.pdf
Here's a link to the Board of Library Trustees' web page, with their prior Board minutes and notices:
http://jpl.coj.net/lib/board.html
Board of Library Trustees - monthly Board Meeting
Date: Thursday, July 11, 2013
Time: Noon
Location: Main Library
Conference Level Multipurpose Room 1
303 N Laura St
Jacksonville, Florida 32202
Contact: Andi Hammond
904-630-8717
catherih@coj.net
Thanks for your efforts to save our libraries!
Here is a short video I did about the Proposed Library Closures-focusing on the Willow Branch Library http://youtu.be/X-GtnYYIiCo
Thanks for the minutes, Stephen. VERY interesting information and very illustrative of why we need to get the library system out of the Mayor/Council budget process and into their own dedicated funding source.
QuoteTrustee Wood restated what Mr. Hansen said that if the Board does not submit a FY14 budget that meets the 13.88% cut, the remainder could be arbitrarily cut with no input from the Board. Trustee Hardesty noted that the Board needs to provide framework that shows legitimacy as a Board.
Now I understand a little better about the scenario. Mayor Brown is just demanding across the board cuts, which happens in every city across the country if they're good mayors, and the library has chosen this is the best place to cut. They want to rile up the community to usher support for them to the mayors office so that when they present a budget that isn't 13.whatever % cut he won't close the libraries. So basically the library board is using the community to so its dirty work. Nothing wrong with that, politics as usual, just a little disappointing. The bottom line, if they have their own funding source, it would stop the need for such antics.
Does Jacksonville Library have any branch support groups? For instance, here in Clay County each library has a Friends of (Insert Branch) in which the people who use that branch get to support it and advocate for programs in their specific branch. The only way any library will succeed, in my opinion, is if it proactively asserts itself into the community that its in.
Ugh the Jumbotron again ... Even though the money CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN SOMETHING FOR THE STADIUM, BY LAW people still grab onto that one darn line. Regardless of what one thinks about those giant screens, they have no bearing on any budget talk unless you are talking about improvements to Everbank Field.
And personally, I feel that even though 13% seems high, that's just good business. It allows each agency the opportunity to examine where they can streamline costs and operate more efficiently. Now idk about the reasoning behind it, but if just pandering to the unions than that should brought up again when he runs for re-election.
Quote from: JayBird on July 07, 2013, 08:38:55 PM
QuoteTrustee Wood restated what Mr. Hansen said that if the Board does not submit a FY14 budget that meets the 13.88% cut, the remainder could be arbitrarily cut with no input from the Board. Trustee Hardesty noted that the Board needs to provide framework that shows legitimacy as a Board.
Now I understand a little better about the scenario. Mayor Brown is just demanding across the board cuts, which happens in every city across the country if they're good mayors, and the library has chosen this is the best place to cut. They want to rile up the community to usher support for them to the mayors office so that when they present a budget that isn't 13.whatever % cut he won't close the libraries. So basically the library board is using the community to so its dirty work. Nothing wrong with that, politics as usual, just a little disappointing. The bottom line, if they have their own funding source, it would stop the need for such antics.
Does Jacksonville Library have any branch support groups? For instance, here in Clay County each library has a Friends of (Insert Branch) in which the people who use that branch get to support it and advocate for programs in their specific branch. The only way any library will succeed, in my opinion, is if it proactively asserts itself into the community that its in.
Not quite right. By law the mayor has to present a balanced budget, and he's got something cooked up, but it relies on his pension reform deal getting passed. He's threatening the across the board cuts to services if the pension deal isn't passed (since he won't consider raising taxes). Obviously the mayor's preferred goal is to get his pension reform passed rather than implementing the cuts (for the time being, anyway). Unfortunately, a number of parties have identified problems with the pension deal, but at this point the libraries are caught in the crossfire.
Quote from: JayBird on July 07, 2013, 09:02:26 PM
Ugh the Jumbotron again ... Even though the money CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN SOMETHING FOR THE STADIUM, BY LAW people still grab onto that one darn line. Regardless of what one thinks about those giant screens, they have no bearing on any budget talk unless you are talking about improvements to Everbank Field.
I was under the impression that the City had no idea of where the money for the stadium upgrades was coming from. Did something change?
Government is not a business! It should not operate as a business. People's benefits should not be measured by profit or loss. It should be measured by how much benefits people will get out of them. Libraries benefit the public in so many ways. They create a civilized society.
Again, there are so many people who cannot afford getting internet at home. They cannot have cable or dish either. Minimum wages earners cannot afford paying all these bills. Internet access is considered too expensive for so many people in this town.
Go to any library and see how many people use the computers. Sometimes, people judge by the way they live not by seeing or observing the others.
Libraries are so important to so many residents in Duval county. In addition, television does not provide culture. The only channel that might provide culture is PBS. People need to read and read different types of books in order to be cultured.
Many people ride the bus to go to a library. If one is closed, it will be hard for them to go to another one. Those people will have to ride two or three buses to get to one.
BTW, I hardly go to the libraries myself because I like to own the books. However, not because I can afford paying for books, I should forget about the other people. Not because I can drive few miles to go to another library, I should forget about the other people.
In order the city can move forward, it needs to spend on education and culture. Open minded people are cultured people.
Again, if we use profits to measure everything, we would have closed bridges, parks, and many things. People are more important than profits.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 07, 2013, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: JayBird on July 07, 2013, 09:02:26 PM
Ugh the Jumbotron again ... Even though the money CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN SOMETHING FOR THE STADIUM, BY LAW people still grab onto that one darn line. Regardless of what one thinks about those giant screens, they have no bearing on any budget talk unless you are talking about improvements to Everbank Field.
I was under the impression that the City had no idea of where the money for the stadium upgrades was coming from. Did something change?
Discussed at length in another thread
Well in my book running like a business isn't solely for profit. We run our prison ministry like a business and make no financial profit, as a matter of fact the IRS strictly forbids making a profit. It means operating a financially stabilized enterprise. For so long government across the board has operated on the idea that the money will come from somewhere, lets build this and worry about the cost later. Whereas this is something that should be done in every government, because there is always extra padding that can be trimmed. That would mean more money to somewhere else.
Everyone on this thread, for once, agree that our libraries are important to the community and shouldn't be closed barring some incident of gross negligence. If that is any indication of the actual community, than there will be some way they can survive.
Quote from: JayBird on July 08, 2013, 08:12:49 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 07, 2013, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: JayBird on July 07, 2013, 09:02:26 PM
Ugh the Jumbotron again ... Even though the money CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN SOMETHING FOR THE STADIUM, BY LAW people still grab onto that one darn line. Regardless of what one thinks about those giant screens, they have no bearing on any budget talk unless you are talking about improvements to Everbank Field.
I was under the impression that the City had no idea of where the money for the stadium upgrades was coming from. Did something change?
Discussed at length in another thread
I saw the thread about using money from the bed tax. However, after that discussion took place, there was an article mentioning the city had not figured out where all the money would come from. Speaking of the bed tax, that's the money many looked at as a source to fund the construction of a new convention center a few years back. So, I guess that issue still remains in limbo, meaning modifying the JRTC plan is in limbo as well. Overall, all of these things are connected in some sort of fashion. You just have to follow the bread crumbs.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
Government, though, is not a business. It doesnt run at a profit. It doesnt observe the same rules and it has different goals.
From Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business)
QuoteA business (also known as enterprise or firm) is an organization involved in the trade of goods, services, or both to consumers.
Hmm, nothing about profit. Could a government not considered an enterprise in the trade of services?
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
I think thats one of the reasons that Ive gotten so out of step with my native Republican Party roots. This call for responsible government seems to be more about making government services the same thing as a profitmaking venture. Cut corners, screw the little guy, make decisions based on the risk factors involved with litigation etc. Its a sickness and will be the fatal infection of the modern conservatives. There was never supposed to be a disconnect between doing the right thing and doing the cheap thing.
I believe changing right for cheap was a product of citizens wanting their cake and eating it too. We all want the best services for not as much as money as they probably should be. Then, being that the people who make those decisions are reliant upon the people to continually elect them, which means they need to be pleased. One may also say that the framers of our government never intended for it to be a career, yet there are still no term limits for most positions.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
Its supposed to be about stewardship. How to get through the uncertain times and events with something worth keeping left intact on the other side. We pass on our achievements, and our infrastructure, and or heritage so that each generation doesnt have to pay for these things all over again, because it was done right the first time.
I completely agree, however the same could be applied to a corporation with whom an employee worked 30 years for and now has children and grandchildren working there. Uncommon nowadays though, which may be proof of the tear in the fabric of 'community' as it used to be.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
Sometimes I think we lose track of that with all this discussion about governments that are supposed to suddenly act like businesses.
I feel we get sidetracked by politicians whom try to manipulate our perceptions so that they can reap the benefits of a 'business' instead of actually doing so for the service to the community.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
But that set aside, our government is a participatory kind of a thing. Here at the city level we aren't supposed to just elect people to office and then check in every four years. You have to stay invovled with each of the issues and register whether or not the decision making process is what you want out of it.
Once again, agreed but with one addendum. Some things are just because they are. No amount of complaining, rioting, picketing, soapboxing, or general disruptions will change that. I think each and every person should be able to recognize those times, and step back and work on how to adapt. Then, when that person comes up for reelection, pull that little nugget out of your hat and bean them in the head with it. Otherwise, every one complains, but psychologically we've purged that from our system. So when they come up for reelection those upset feelings have already been tempered and we are okay with allowing them to stay. Then complain when it's the same old, same old. Vicious cycle.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2013, 10:28:09 PM
And when the process is driven by this kind of reasoning, then you get in there and you call shenanigans.
I wish everyone felt this way, the world would've/could've been and might yet be a better place.
A comment from the minutes recorded- is it not more of a problem that various departments are more fiscally responsible in their budgeting, but the flat cut does not take that into account? e.g., Parks & Rec clearly is playing the game to get their budget
increased despite the cuts, whereas the library budget submitted was honest, and here we are.
QuoteTrustee Anderson asked about the discrepancy in the percentage of cuts from different departments. He specifically highlighted the Parks Department which submitted a “lights-on†budget for FY14 that is 34.79% higher than their FY13 budget and that the 13.88% cut was taken from that higher number which actually gives them a significant increase (23.87%) in their FY14 budget from their FY13 budget. He pointed out that the library had submitted a true “lights-on†budget of what it would take to remain at the same service levels as F13 into FY14 which resulted in a submission of 4.45% less than the FY13 budget. The 13.88% cut was taken from that lower number resulting in a net reduction in the FY14 budget requiring the closing of some libraries. Mr. Hansen responded that the budget office cannot control what each department submits.
So what action can legitimately be taken around this?
Good link from Seth Godin on the end of books, included in this are libraries, some interesting thinking....
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2013/08/an-end-of-books.html (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2013/08/an-end-of-books.html)
Funny, most of our libraries are still heavily used especially on the weekends.
The modern library is more than just books, it's also computer and Internet access (which not everyone has), educational programs, ebooks and more. That guy's full of it.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 15, 2013, 10:05:29 AM
The modern library is more than just books, it's also computer and Internet access (which not everyone has), educational programs, ebooks and more. That guy's full of it.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 15, 2013, 09:21:35 AM
Funny, most of our libraries are still heavily used especially on the weekends.
Truth. I think this writer has never been in a library in the past 10 years. They are moving to become more "neighborhood centers" than solely for outlets of personal knowledge.
update: looks like brentwood and maxville branches are still on the chopping block. other branches seem to have been spared for now.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/325714/3/2-Jacksonville-libraries-on-the-chopping-block
Quote from: m74reeves on August 28, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
update: looks like brentwood and maxville branches are still on the chopping block. other branches seem to have been spared for now.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/325714/3/2-Jacksonville-libraries-on-the-chopping-block
The Brentwood and the Maxville branches shouldn't be closed at all! How about closing all the Library branches on Sunday so these two libraries can stay open. Can the people in Maxville help that Jacksonville is so huge in land mass? I have been to the Maxville branch it is almost at the end of Normandy Blvd near state road 301. And to close the Brentwood library is just plain cruel. The people of Brentwood some of the poorest in Jacksonville need this library. I find it sad that of the six that could have been closed that this board has decided to close these two branches. SHAME ON YOU!
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 28, 2013, 05:54:26 PM
Quote from: m74reeves on August 28, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
update: looks like brentwood and maxville branches are still on the chopping block. other branches seem to have been spared for now.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/325714/3/2-Jacksonville-libraries-on-the-chopping-block
The Brentwood and the Maxville branches shouldn't be closed at all! How about closing all the Library branches on Sunday so these two libraries can stay open. Can the people in Maxville help that Jacksonville is so huge in land mass? I have been to the Maxville branch it is almost at the end of Normandy Blvd near state road 301. And to close the Brentwood library is just plain cruel. The people of Brentwood some of the poorest in Jacksonville need this library. I find it sad that of the six that could have been closed that this board has decided to close these two branches. SHAME ON YOU!
I have to agree. I am particularly dismayed at the closure of Brentwood. This should have been worked out and still needs to be.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 28, 2013, 06:01:08 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 28, 2013, 05:54:26 PM
Quote from: m74reeves on August 28, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
update: looks like brentwood and maxville branches are still on the chopping block. other branches seem to have been spared for now.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/325714/3/2-Jacksonville-libraries-on-the-chopping-block
The Brentwood and the Maxville branches shouldn't be closed at all! How about closing all the Library branches on Sunday so these two libraries can stay open. Can the people in Maxville help that Jacksonville is so huge in land mass? I have been to the Maxville branch it is almost at the end of Normandy Blvd near state road 301. And to close the Brentwood library is just plain cruel. The people of Brentwood some of the poorest in Jacksonville need this library. I find it sad that of the six that could have been closed that this board has decided to close these two branches. SHAME ON YOU!
I have to agree. I am particularly dismayed at the closure of Brentwood. This should have been worked out and still needs to be.
Amen! ;)
F.Y.I. Fine People of Maxville if your Library is closed you can drive 12.7 miles to the
West Regional Library Branch
(904) 693-1448
1425 Chaffee Road S [32221]
Hours:
• Wed, Fri, Sat: 10 a.m. - 6 p.m.
• Tue & Thu: 1 p.m. - 9 p.m.
• Sun & Mon: CLOSED
Or drive 17.2 miles to the Argyle Branch Library
904) 573-3164
7973 Old Middleburg Road S [32222]
Hours:
• Wed, Fri, Sat: 10 a.m. - 6 p.m.
• Tue & Thu: 1 p.m. - 9 p.m.
• Sun & Mon: CLOSED
Because your Library didn't make the cut?
Maxville Branch
(904) 289-7563
8375 Maxville Blvd [32234]
Hours:
• Mon: Noon - 8 p.m.
• Tue, Wed, Thu, Sat: 10 a.m. - 6 p.m.
• Fri & Sun: CLOSED
^ well I guess the Baker County residents could go to their own library
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 28, 2013, 09:13:03 PM
^ well I guess the Baker County residents could go to their own library
They no doubt could. In the big scheme of things we should fund our own libraries and if folks from Baker want to learn using our library resources, have at it. I don't care who uses resources that are meant to educated and enlighten. Bottom line is was a total closure really necessary?
The second part of the discussion is a reduction in hours at the Main Library. It is currently open 52 hours a week, 8 hours per day Monday through Saturday and 4 hours Sunday. It's been proposed it drop to 44 hours. How would you propose the powers that be distribute those 44 hours, presuming funding is restored/found to maintain Sunday hours, currently 4 hours only? Which days should it be available and which days should it close?
To If I loved You, I think all the libraries on the list are in the poor areas or serving the poor in that community or area. It is sad, but it is the truth. The poor always pay for the greed of others. The poor are used because the politicians know no one will stand for them. The poor are used because no one really care about them or care about getting them out of poverty. On the other hand, the politicians know that the rich got their ways to defend their rights.
^The latest news is that the Maxville and Brentwood libraries will also be spared in the City Council's most recent plan. Everything has been slow because the Council has essentially had to write the budget themselves; it's supposed to be the Mayor's job.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-05/story/jacksonville-council-panel-backs-spending-keep-open-2-more-libraries
Quote from: nandrewsn on September 11, 2013, 02:08:44 PM
To If I loved You, I think all the libraries on the list are in the poor areas or serving the poor in that community or area. It is sad, but it is the truth. The poor always pay for the greed of others. The poor are used because the politicians know no one will stand for them. The poor are used because no one really care about them or care about getting them out of poverty. On the other hand, the politicians know that the rich got their ways to defend their rights.
nandrewsn Your right but just like Tacachale has stated Maxville and Brentwood Libraries have been spared and these people will be able to keep their local libraries this next year. But I do find it sad that it's so easy for the Mayor to go after the Library system. I'm glad no libraries will be closed. But the hours that have been cut back at all the branches still makes me sick! So I'm all for saving the libraries with a separate or special TAX I signed the paper work to Save our libraries I hope you did!
I have said it before, but Duval Public Libraries really need to be partitioned off from the overall city budget.
They should have their own funding body, board and governance. Having their budget co-mingled with the overall city budget, especially in a city this large is odd.
via the Daily Record
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543822 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543822)
Board says cuts will close Mandarin, Maxville and Willowbranch libraries
If the across-the-board 2.4 percent reduction in department budgets recommended by the City Council Finance Committee occurs, some libraries in Jacksonville will close.
After absorbing a $132,000 budget cut for part-time hours, the library is faced with finding another $764,460 to cut based on the budget.
The library board of trustees previously voted to close the Maxville Branch Library, the least-used branch in the system, to save $68,477 in the 2014-15 budget.
The trustees developed a range of scenarios on Friday to accommodate the budget cut. On the low end, $772,234 could be saved by closing the Mandarin and Willowbranch libraries.
The highest-level cut, $1,464,206, would be achieved by closing the Mandarin, University Park and Willowbranch libraries and closing all libraries on Sunday.
"In our control are people and materials. Reducing staff will close libraries," said Brenda Simmons-Hutchins, trustees chair. "We've been here before. Our backs are against the wall."