I see per Daily Report that Gulliford has requested Lori Boyer to lead a task for to review all aspects of consolidation. Noting it has been 45 years and perhaps some changes are needed. The committee will have community involvement. Wonder if anything substantial will come from this review? I think with Boyer leading the review it will be handled in a thorough manner and has some potential for change. Perhaps better for urban core?
Here is the article.
Friday, June 28, 10:01 AM EDT
by David Chapman, Staff Writer
Incoming City Council President Bill Gulliford will create a task force to review "all aspects of consolidation" of City government to determine if changes are needed.
Council member Lori Boyer will lead the citizen-driven group that Gulliford said will comprise up to 30 members of the public who will study the issue and make recommendations for legislative action at the end of a nine-month review.
If City Charter changes are needed, Gulliford said the group could make suggestions for a possible referendum.
"It's been 45 years come this October and we really haven't given it an in-depth look," Gulliford told Boyer during Thursday's noticed meeting.
The review will include the City's relationship with its independent authorities, City ordinance code related to consolidation and overall "what works, what doesn't and what can be improved," Gulliford said.
Gulliford told Boyer over the Council's July 1-12 summer break, he will create suggested parameters, targets and questions to provide preliminary guidance, though he expects the scope to expand "light years" when citizen input begins and the impact to be "very, very significant."
"Honestly, I have been amazed at the enthusiasm met with people who want to jump on board," he said.
Boyer said, after the meeting, she will review Mayor Alvin Brown's transition reports because some of the work possibly was done in that process. She also will review historical information about consolidation and study what parts of the City ordinance code intermingles with the Charter.
Gulliford said he has ideas for some of the task force members and asked Boyer to begin thinking of potential members. He said he hoped to see a diverse group involved and include members from the nonprofit and business communities, as well as those who aren't in agreement with how consolidation has worked.
"It's going to be work and we have to expect that those on it are going to do work and do work outside those meetings," Boyer said.
She said she would expect the group to meet at least every two weeks.
The task force will be bound by the state Sunshine Law, meaning discussions and meetings will be public.
Gulliford suggested that an educational series of meetings could lead to subcommittees that focus on specific topics, similar to the structure of a Council Special Committee on Solid Waste he chaired.
He said he hoped to hear "passionate debate and discord" to spur any changes for the better and said during the meeting he could have created "100 questions about consolidation" he would be interested in, such as questioning the need for 19 Council members.
Gulliford and Boyer will again meet after the Council break to further solidify the task force and its scope.
"It will be absolutely intriguing as a process and rewarding as an outcome," Gulliford said.
He will talk about the task force during his comments at 4 p.m. today at the Council leadership installation ceremony, where he will be sworn in as Council president for the 2013-14 year that begins Monday.
dchapman@baileypub.com
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
From the Daily Record today:
QuoteSome think that when Gulliford appointed Council member Lori Boyer as chair of his consolidation review task force, he is setting dead aim on trying to dismember consolidated government, something Gulliford doesn't seem interested in denying.
He told the Leader that the County government might be better managed by a hired staff instead of an elected mayor and said he wants the review group to consider "depoliticizing the mayor."
Like the pension reform task force, the work of Gulliford's consolidation review group will be interesting to watch over the coming months.
Having had 2 Mayors in a row that don't quite seem to know how to run a city, this would be a fantastic move imo. I've personally witnessed how much better and more efficiently government is run by city manager types vs. politicians.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=539942
^Meh. Then they're just beholden to the council that appointed them rather than being elected. This may be appealing to some city council members, but is the council's track record better enough that it would make a difference?
Quote from: Tacachale on July 08, 2013, 04:47:30 PM
^Meh. Then they're just beholden to the council that appointed them rather than being elected. This may be appealing to some city council members, but is the council's track record better enough that it would make a difference?
That aspect can be negative and it does potentially enable power brokers to get their guy in place (through council members), but at the same time, it does generally lead to professional level management which we seem to be seriously lacking at the mayoral level. I know we've had some bad luck with council members lately, but they are the ones that see day to day operations, talk with departmental directors, scrutinize the budget, etc. If anyone should know when a mayor/city manager is performing poorly, its council. Ideally, we would be able to entrust them to hire a highly skilled and competent manager and demand results.
In our current situation, our mayor seems to be absolutely clueless and doesn't have to answer to anyone for two years. And even then, he will be wasting an entire year campaigning and governing for show, instead of governing for the future. Additionally, the city manager structure allows continuity (if properly performing), which can ensure that long range goals and visions are carried out, instead of 4 years of this, 8 years of that, 4 years of this, and so on.
Also, when I said it would be a fantastic move, I didn't mean that the move away from a strong mayor would be fantastic, just that evaluating it for Jacksonville would be a good move.
Libraries and Parks definitely need to be split out.
I would easily vote for a referendum to tax me for libraries and parks separately from COJ.
I don't really care if the city wants to stay consolidated, actually it provides the potential of control of sprawl, though that may be the problem.
Quote from: spuwho on July 08, 2013, 06:22:34 PM
Libraries and Parks definitely need to be split out.
I would easily vote for a referendum to tax me for libraries and parks separately from COJ.
I don't really care if the city wants to stay consolidated, actually it provides the potential of control of sprawl, though that may be the problem.
I say DOWN WITH CONSOLIDATION!!!
Quote from: urbaknight on June 28, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
Consolidation practically saved this city, downtown would be worse than Detroit without consolidation, riverside/Avondale would be ghettos. Independent life building? Bank of America tower? Forget it, they would have never been constructed without consolidation. Our resources are only streched thin because we aren't willing to spend the money necessary to run a city of this size.
I actually went back to the beginning and reread this thread a second time. Is there a link or any specific information in regards to what they hope to accomplish in reviewing consolidation?
I remember studying this topic and remembering that amongst other things Atlantic beach had the highest property tax rates in the state for a time because it maintained its own police, fire and city services post consolidation.
It seems like some of the comments made here could be more adequately addressed by a review of how the existing consolidated services are managed versus attempting to create duplicative services. Call me crazy but that seems like we'll end up spending more money on administration then services.
They'll probably recommend the doing away of consolidation and erecting new borders for Jacksonville; thus the population will be around 330,000 rather than almost 900,000.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: urbaknight on June 28, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
I think that would be too costly, and might take time to return back to 1968 boundaries. I say keep consolidation, but ensure that it works FOR the city instead of against it.
HU
Quote from: stephendare on July 10, 2013, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: Jax101 on July 10, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on June 28, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
Consolidation practically saved this city, downtown would be worse than Detroit without consolidation, riverside/Avondale would be ghettos. Independent life building? Bank of America tower? Forget it, they would have never been constructed without consolidation. Our resources are only streched to thin because we aren't willing to spend the money necessary to run a city of this size.
+1,000,000
The mayor is too concerns with keeping a campaign promise than doing whats best for the city.
Quote from: Jax101 on July 10, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on June 28, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
Our resources are only streched thin because we aren't willing to spend the money necessary to run a city of this size.
A city of this size population wise or land mass wise? Are you saying that you don't think its significantly more expensive for Jacksonville to pay for police, fire, roads, schools, etc in a sprawling city than a more compact one? Because I've directly heard the opposite from JSO leaders...and a universal argument against sprawl is the increased cost of services, so...
^It's Both. Jacksonville isn't any more sprawled out than other Florida metros that don't have the same problems funding their services we currently do (in fact, our own suburban counties don't seem to have that problem).
Well that does it Tacachale. Guess we don't need a consolidation task force after all....
Care to back that up with even the slightest hint of a fact? This is precisely why it would be useful to do a review of consolidation and compare Jacksonville to places statewide and countrywide. Until then we are relying on conjecture.
^I thought it was pretty straight forward. Sprawl does increase the cost of a lot of services. However, it's not more expensive per capita for Jacksonville to maintain services than it is in similarly low-density Florida governments like Orlando/Orange County, Tampa/Hillsborough, Charlotte, Alachua, etc. Places like St. Johns and Clay Counties are almost all low-density residential development. However, none of those areas are currently having the same problems funding their services.
Conjecture and an oversimplification of a complex matter.
Orlando is 110 square miles-Orange County 1,003 square miles
Tampa is 170 square miles-Hillsborough County 1,266 square miles
Jacksonville is 874 square miles-Duval County is 918 square miles
Orlando has 2,327 people per square mile and Orange County has 1,258 per square mile
Tampa has 2,969 people per square mile and Hillsborough has 1,170 per square mile
Jacksonville has 1,100 people per square mile and Duval County has 1,117 per square mile
Not exactly an apples to apples comparison....and I'd love to see some facts on Orlando and Tampa's financial situations, as well as of Orange and Hillsborough Counties.
As for the St. Johns and Clay arguments, know anything about their financial situations or the services they provide? St. Johns County funds quite a bit of infrastructure and services through impact fees on new development and also doesn't have nearly the burden of crime and social services that Jacksonville does. It is also one of the wealthiest counties in the state...I believe 3rd. So again, not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Funny enough I'm a former SJC employee and can tell you that they require about 2x the output than COJ does out of their employees and also are MUCH more effectively managed by Michael Wanchick than Mayor Brown does COJ.
I don't think the consolidation task force should have the aim to deconsolidate...but I think that it would be a great opportunity to find out what works and what doesn't and then tweak the system.
^I would agree with that. The point of my comparison was that across most Florida metros other than Miami, the population density is comparable. In the bigger cities, the size of the area served, whether services are split between the county and cities or Jax's consolidated government, is also similar. So while sprawl effects the costs of services, the effect is similar in those areas. However, Jacksonville is the one that's having trouble keeping our libraries open and our grass mowed.
CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval. I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.
I think the Mayor should take a hint from Vitti at the School Board and look for bloat within the administration of City Departments.
Deconsolidation would simply create additional government bureaucracy and cost. The better focus is how we are utilizing the resources that we do have.
And, don't get me started on our failure to follow-through on mobility fees as a source to fund services to the sprawl.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 11, 2013, 11:56:42 AM
^I would agree with that. The point of my comparison was that across most Florida metros other than Miami, the population density is comparable. In the bigger cities, the size of the area served, whether services are split between the county and cities or Jax's consolidated government, is also similar. So while sprawl effects the costs of services, the effect is similar in those areas. However, Jacksonville is the one that's having trouble keeping our libraries open and our grass mowed.
But again that is a major oversimplification. What is the millage rate in Orlando/Tampa? What are the assessed property values in Orlando/Tampa? How much extra do they generate in tourism revenue? How much more money do USF/UCF stimulate into their local economies vs. UNF? How much do they spend on libraries, police, schools, maintenance, etc? How are their governments staffed? What is their pension situation? And so on and so on.
This isn't just a quick matter to discuss on a message board, but a subject that needs to be looked at from every angle and then researched heavily.
Quote from: icarus on July 11, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval. I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.
I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....
As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.
I'd love to compare how many attorney's we have on staff to other places. SJC has 5...Duval by my count 31! 17 of which are making >$100,000 a year.
http://www.coj.net/ogc/attorneys.aspx
Spoken with two different people today about the Task Force. One tells me that he believes/hopes one thing that will looked at is all the agencies like JEA, JTA, JaxPort, etc, especially how out of control the salaries are. The other tells me to expect it to be filled with big hitters, which of course isn't surprising.
Taca, looks like Clay does have issues providing basic services as well.
http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2013-07-14/story/clay-public-ballparks-deteroriating-county-cites-economy-budget
QuoteClay County public ballparks are deteriorating for want of maintenance and repairs.
County officials blame budget and manpower constraints for the decaying conditions. Close parks or put off non-safety-related repairs and maintenance is the hard choice the county's faced since the 2007-08 fiscal year, County Manager Stephanie Kopelousos said. This year, the department's budget totals nearly $1.6 million.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 11, 2013, 09:50:14 AM
^It's Both. Jacksonville isn't any more sprawled out than other Florida metros that don't have the same problems funding their services we currently do (in fact, our own suburban counties don't seem to have that problem).
Jacksonville is way more sprawled than the other Florida metros, that one's not really arguable...
Quote from: CityLife on July 11, 2013, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: icarus on July 11, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval. I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.
I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....
As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.
I'll second that opinion. My best friend in the world recently retired from SJC as a department head. He is an incredibly skilled administrator who got more work out of his employees than anyone could believe. Even when someone came down with a medical disability, he would find something they could do until they could return to full duty instead of having them sit a home collecting a paycheck. They recovered faster too.
He also said that the impact fees in SJC made it possible to maintain and expand the infrastructure.
His opinion of people in comparable positions to his in Duval County is not high and in some cases downright disdainful. "Too much politics, not enough skills."
Quote from: CityLife on July 15, 2013, 08:14:08 AM
Taca, looks like Clay does have issues providing basic services as well.
http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2013-07-14/story/clay-public-ballparks-deteroriating-county-cites-economy-budget
QuoteClay County public ballparks are deteriorating for want of maintenance and repairs.
County officials blame budget and manpower constraints for the decaying conditions. Close parks or put off non-safety-related repairs and maintenance is the hard choice the county's faced since the 2007-08 fiscal year, County Manager Stephanie Kopelousos said. This year, the department's budget totals nearly $1.6 million.
I saw that. However, they're still not at the level of laying off dozens of cops, closing over a quarter of their libraries, or four fire stations.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 15, 2013, 09:22:27 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 11, 2013, 09:50:14 AM
^It's Both. Jacksonville isn't any more sprawled out than other Florida metros that don't have the same problems funding their services we currently do (in fact, our own suburban counties don't seem to have that problem).
Jacksonville is way more sprawled than the other Florida metros, that one's not really arguable...
Population density is lower but comparable in Duval vs. to Orlando and Tampa. It's more dense than the Lakeland, Ocala or Melbourne areas. It's obviously a lot less dense than the Miami area.
Quote from: Dog Walker on July 15, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
Quote from: CityLife on July 11, 2013, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: icarus on July 11, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval. I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.
I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....
As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.
I'll second that opinion. My best friend in the world recently retired from SJC as a department head. He is an incredibly skilled administrator who got more work out of his employees than anyone could believe. Even when someone came down with a medical disability, he would find something they could do until they could return to full duty instead of having them sit a home collecting a paycheck. They recovered faster too.
He also said that the impact fees in SJC made it possible to maintain and expand the infrastructure.
His opinion of people in comparable positions to his in Duval County is not high and in some cases downright disdainful. "Too much politics, not enough skills."
Yeah, that sounds about right. The feeling I got from a lot of people was that the impact fees for new development made the comparatively lower tax rates for property owners possible. We'll see how long it holds out, though, as it won't be a hot spot for new development forever and they really don't have any economic drivers besides residential construction and some tourism.
Taca, there is actually a surprising amount of industrial development in SJC too. You are right though in that relying on impact fees for infrastructure and services is not a sustainable form of government long term. However, by the time SJC has those issues, they will have already acquired a significant amount of the middle and upper income Jax Metro residents. When that happens, they can just raise the millage to capture whatever revenue they need.
Quote from: CityLife on July 15, 2013, 08:14:08 AM
Taca, looks like Clay does have issues providing basic services as well.
http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2013-07-14/story/clay-public-ballparks-deteroriating-county-cites-economy-budget
QuoteClay County public ballparks are deteriorating for want of maintenance and repairs.
County officials blame budget and manpower constraints for the decaying conditions. Close parks or put off non-safety-related repairs and maintenance is the hard choice the county's faced since the 2007-08 fiscal year, County Manager Stephanie Kopelousos said. This year, the department's budget totals nearly $1.6 million.
Take an afternoon, or better yet a drive on a Saturday and visit the ballparks around Clay County and you will quickly find that what Clay County calls "lacking" people of Duval would most likely call "a vast improvement". This article is actually politically motivated as the result of a three year debate between the County, City of GCS, and the little League Associations about how much $$$ each pays into the pot for improvements and maintenance. With certain county administrators trying to ram a new $16-50M (according to who you talk to) baseball complex down people's throats without giving a hoot to what they say, the battle is soon coming to a head.
I don't know about that. I partially grew up in OP and played baseball at OPAA. Was just up there recently and its pretty crappy. Not nearly as nice as some of the baseball parks I've seen in Mandarin. My old elementary and junior high are now dumps. The neighborhood I grew up in has gone downhill quite a bit (as has most of OP, not Fleming Island). Clay wouldn't exactly be considered a model county by any stretch.
But yea the whole big league park thing is an awful idea. Especially when considering that long term, baseball is losing a lot of traction to other sports. Definitely seems a bit shady and not in the public interest.
Keep in mind that any "recreational, educational or pre-existing community facility" that falls within the limits of the Town of Orange Park receives no funding through the county due to an erroneous decision in September of 2009 by John Bowles. Cindy Hall has mended relationships and they are believed to recieve some funding for the 2014 fiscal year, but this has been one of the examples used by those of us fighting against the constantly growing group whom want Fleming Island to be their own Town. There are actually services provided by the county for OPAA that they get paid back for from monies from both OPAA and the Town of OP, which is why they were blatantly omitted from this article.
Any talk of changing consolidation as it is today should account for new people stepping into management who may waste resources by trying to "establish" their power. While I agree with re-evaluating how money is spent and services provided, in my opinion any talk of breaking the consolidation will have disastrous effects.
And yes, I would say America's PASTtime is losing its foothold to soccer, At least in NE Florida.
Looks like things are moving quickly for the task force. The first meeting is tentatively scheduled for August 5th.
QuoteCombined, their two lists of volunteers and suggestions had more than 60 names with some overlap.
Names on the lists include Peter Rummell, former Jacksonville Civic Council chairman; Wally Lee, retired JAX Chamber CEO; Wyman Duggan, past chair of the Charter Revision Commission; Fred Franklin, attorney and former City general counsel; Susie Wiles, consultant and Civic Council acting director; Rena Coughlin, Nonprofit Center of Northeast Florida CEO; Sam Mousa, former City chief administrative officer; and Alton Yates, community leader.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540041
Jim Bailey speculated in today's Daily Record that this may be an attempt by Council President Gulliford to revive "Ocean County." http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540056
Unlike Tampa, Orlando, or any other city in Florida, Jacksonville has a consolidated government. There is no Duval County Government or County Commissioners. We have a City Council and Mayor, as does Atlantic, Neptune and Jacksonville Beach. Baldwin also has its own Mayor, but it gave up some of its autonomy a few years ago because it could not afford to provide public safety services. The four towns' taxpayers pay taxes to run their local government and pay some taxes to COJ.
The Ocean County concept was proposed years ago and it was to include the three beach communities. The formation of a new county would require the Florida Legislature to approve and the Governor to sign into law. It will never happen. The primary reason is that much of the tax base for the various big counties in Florida is found along the coast and these coastal areas would like to be their own political entities and not have to pay both local and county taxes.
While Consolidation has had it flaws and issues over the years, it has also helped to avoid many issues you find in other big Florida Counties. There are some very intelligent people who have been named to the Consolidation Task Force. It will be interesting to see what they come up with in the way of recommendations. It will take either voter approval or legislative approval to change the City Charter, so there will be plenty of opportunity for public comment.
Quote from: stephendare on July 10, 2013, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: Jax101 on July 10, 2013, 08:52:11 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on June 28, 2013, 03:47:05 PM
I think the city needs to go back to the pre-1968 boundaries. Screw consolidation! It has resulted in everything being stretched too thin. (police, fire, rescue, the libraries, too much sprawl) It's time to cut the suburbs free. They can surly afford to take care of themselves.
Consolidation practically saved this city, downtown would be worse than Detroit without consolidation, riverside/Avondale would be ghettos. Independent life building? Bank of America tower? Forget it, they would have never been constructed without consolidation. Our resources are only streched to thin because we aren't willing to spend the money necessary to run a city of this size.
+1,000,000
James Crooks, Jacksonville's most prominent historian of the city, was on First Coast Connect this morning (89.9 WJCT radio) to discuss the consolidation task force. I called and asked if he thought consolidation had saved us from Detroit's problems and he heartily agreed. He said it kept a lot of residents from moving to "the suburbs" and destroying the tax base.
Here are his books on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Jacksonville-Consolidation-Jaguars-Florida-History/dp/081302708X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374678388&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Jacksonville-Consolidation-Jaguars-Florida-History/dp/081302708X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374678388&sr=1-1)
http://www.amazon.com/Jacksonville-after-Fire-1901-1919-South/dp/0813010675/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374678388&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Jacksonville-after-Fire-1901-1919-South/dp/0813010675/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374678388&sr=1-2)
I guess he has a point. When we moved here in 1966, off University near Beach, we were outside the city limits, which ended at Emerson. It was in the unincorporated county where all the new housing was going up, and we didn't pay city taxes, only county.
So is it the law of unforseen consequences? Consolidation both saved and destroyed the City? Saved it by increasing the tax base, but destroyed it because of so many people moving out of the urban core into the suburbs where the new housing was being built. Destroyed it because we didn't foresee how far we would sprawl or how much that would stretch our resources.
^People were already moving out of the urban core and had been for twenty years. The county government was also totally unequipped to deal with it. It's not a result of consolidation.
Sprawl occurred everywhere, the only difference was Jax didn't lose tax base as a result, due to consolidation.
The urban cores of other consolidated/large-land-mass cities are strong and thriving today. See Charlotte, Indy, Nashville and Houston for examples.
The urban core of Jax has not made the turn around that those cities did, because of weak leadership, not consolidation itself.
QuoteThe urban core of Jax has not made the turn around that those cities did, because of weak leadership, not consolidation itself.
Completey agree.
^And taking the money. Shipyards $36,500,000 of taxpayer money gone. That's a ton of dough. add your own examples.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
Sprawl occurred everywhere, the only difference was Jax didn't lose tax base as a result, due to consolidation.
The urban cores of other consolidated/large-land-mass cities are strong and thriving today. See Charlotte, Indy, Nashville and Houston for examples.
The urban core of Jax has not made the turn around that those cities did, because of weak leadership, not consolidation itself.
Yes, this is what I mean. Suburbanization and sprawl predated consolidation and affected cities that didn't consolidate. By and large our struggles in downtown and much of the core are due to reasons beyond consolidation.
What are people's thoughts on City Manager form of government – change though Charter Revision.
Its kind of hard to run a city when all the talent gets fired every 4 years. Add to it, a Mayor-Manager that may be the best politician, but lacking in management ability.
^I think I'd rather start voting for better leaders than trust the city council to pick them for us.
I made my thoughts on that known earlier in the thread. Definitely think it should at least be explored.
Its possible to have both a mayor AND a county manager. In that scenario, the mayor is typically more of a figurehead, but can also be a voting member of City Council. In some places that run that system, the mayor is actually the acting head of council. I'm sure that the charter could be crafted so as to give the Mayor some additional powers. Which would potentially create a proper system of checks and balances.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2013, 11:36:07 AM
^I think I'd rather start voting for better leaders than trust the city council to pick them for us.
But, you voted in the members of the city council?
Remember, School board is based on same model as city manager concept - that's a budget as big as COJ.
You get bad and good results with either form of government, Strong Mayor or City Manager. The people filling the roles is the key, more than the form of government.
In the case of Jacksonville, the city council would probably pick a city manager that would give them the most 'lollipops', that is 'goodies' that the council can tell their respective constiuents they 'got' for them.
Like it or not, I think it is going to get legs. Same with the concept of changing to Police Chief and getting rid of At-large Council positions. The balance of power is changing in Duval County where the democratic majority is actually showing up at the ballot box and voting democrat. One way to keep the status quo is to move to appointed positions where "team red" holds a majority on the Council. Not saying that is right or wrong but as the saying goes: "politics is a contact sport" – and I don't think they are talking about phone calls and knocking on doors.
Link to a program about the attempt to create Ocean County in 1993. 30 minutes long. Informative.
http://thefloridachannel.org/video/ocean-county/ (http://thefloridachannel.org/video/ocean-county/)
We tend to point to the worst-case scenarios of becoming like a Detroit or Newark if we did not consolidate our city and county governments. This, in my opinion, is the challenge of 'what if' or 'alternate history' speculation. Being that our state politics are decidedly different from those of Michigan and other northern states, I would like to know how Florida's state government would have reacted to Jacksonville's situation if consolidation did not pass. I am sure that the Duval delegation of the state legislature would have been summoned by city and county leaders to address the matter. If consolidation had failed, I believe that they would have had to go back to the drawing board and find a new solution. The burden of finding a solution would have fallen on the heads of the so-called 'black hats' who would have been successful in killing consolidation. Another unanswered question would be how the city's elites and business community would have proposed that the city move forward. One possibility might have been to wait another decade or two to try again for another consolidation vote. In the meantime, there may have been some arm twisting and deal making with unincorporated areas to agree to being annexed. It is a lot of speculation, but it's anybody's guess that would have happened.
Quote from: icarus on July 11, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval. I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.
I agree with this. How can we set up a government measurement system? I'm not even sure what some of the City's administrators do or who they report to.
Lori Boyer gets it...not that we didn't already know that.
QuoteWhile maybe not directly tied to consolidation, Boyer said since the group has met she has realized the detrimental effect that a loss of institutional knowledge has had. It's been caused by election turnover from term limits, a stream of mayoral appointees instead of retained civil service employees and the decision to eliminate deputy directors in departments.
The latter was through Mayor Alvin Brown's government reorganization. Boyer was in favor but said she's changed her mind after seeing what their loss has meant to that knowledge base.
"I would totally be opposed to that today," she told the group.
She said afterward that possible ways to put a structure in place could include extended, hiring a city manager that remains beyond council and mayoral terms, and expanding civil service employees.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541054
Quote from: vicupstate on July 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
Sprawl occurred everywhere, the only difference was Jax didn't lose tax base as a result, due to consolidation.
Jax may not have immediately lost its tax base as the initial wave of sprawl didn't jump counties, but I think a very strong arguement could be made that over the long term, it has enabled St. Johns County to aquire a
significant amount of the middle and upper income residents of Jacksonville.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to back that arguement up right now.
Quote from: CityLife on November 14, 2013, 11:16:08 AM
Lori Boyer gets it...not that we didn't already know that.
QuoteWhile maybe not directly tied to consolidation, Boyer said since the group has met she has realized the detrimental effect that a loss of institutional knowledge has had. It's been caused by election turnover from term limits, a stream of mayoral appointees instead of retained civil service employees and the decision to eliminate deputy directors in departments.
The latter was through Mayor Alvin Brown's government reorganization. Boyer was in favor but said she's changed her mind after seeing what their loss has meant to that knowledge base.
"I would totally be opposed to that today," she told the group.
She said afterward that possible ways to put a structure in place could include extended, hiring a city manager that remains beyond council and mayoral terms, and expanding civil service employees.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541054
Good article. I'm glad this stuff is really being explored; the loss of institutional knowledge is a major problem in our government.
Quote from: CityLife on November 14, 2013, 11:26:14 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
Sprawl occurred everywhere, the only difference was Jax didn't lose tax base as a result, due to consolidation.
Jax may not have immediately lost its tax base as the initial wave of sprawl didn't jump counties, but I think a very strong arguement could be made that over the long term, it has enabled St. Johns County to aquire a significant amount of the middle and upper income residents of Jacksonville.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to back that arguement up right now.
I think the argument there would be that sprawl would have continued into surrounding counties regardless of consolidation. It certainly has in Orlando and Tampa.
Quote from: CityLife on November 14, 2013, 11:26:14 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
Sprawl occurred everywhere, the only difference was Jax didn't lose tax base as a result, due to consolidation.
Jax may not have immediately lost its tax base as the initial wave of sprawl didn't jump counties, but I think a very strong arguement could be made that over the long term, it has enabled St. Johns County to aquire a significant amount of the middle and upper income residents of Jacksonville.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to back that arguement up right now.
I agree and it is pretty self-evident.
QuoteI think the argument there would be that sprawl would have continued into surrounding counties regardless of consolidation. It certainly has in Orlando and Tampa.
Consolidation didn't STOP sprawl, then or now. It simply allowed the first few 'waves' of it, to still produce revenue and growth for the city. That will run it's course as sprawl pushes further and further into the surrounding counties.
Consolidation Task Force Report is out.
Hoping to peruse through it later.
http://www.coj.net/city-council/headlines/city-council-task-force-on-consolidation-presents.aspx
Challenges identified by the Task Force on Consolidated Government in Blueprint for Improvement II:
• Continuity in government and retention of institutional knowledge
• Integrated mission and strategic plan
• Central services
• Neighborhood engagement, participation and involvement
• Increased efficiency and effectiveness of local government
• Consistency with the intent and goals of consolidation
• Public trust and confidence in government
• Present and future planning