Metro Jacksonville

This is both and interesting and compelling article from CNN about "beliefs".  What do you think of these experiences and life after physical death?  I am posting the link as the article is lengthy.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/19/proofs-of-heaven-popular-but-not-with-the-church/

There is no such thing as heaven. The idea is laughable at best, delusional and insane at worst.

Ben, just curious, did you read the entire article?  I would add to your comments that judgements of insanity are based upon perception.  For instance some may think it is "insane" to be a registered "Republican" or "Democrat"!  lol  The level of insanity depends upon perceptions and beliefs of individuals, nothing more, nothing less. :)

  It is difficult to fathom that we only have this paradox we are in now, and that there is nothing once we cease to exist here.

Personally, I believe there has to be some transformation beyond this life.  But is it exactly as we have been taught throughout our lives? 

I think it is certain that each of us will find out.

I think the idea that our consciousness transcends the mortal coil is a romantic idea. I would LOVE to think that our consciousness is more than a series of chemical reactions causing electrical impulses.

There is enough that is still unknown about the brain and body that I am more than willing to believe in more, which is why I am not a straight athiest, but I simply dont think any of the religions are close to being accurate. Im personally at a point where I am more inclined to believe in alien intervention of  the creation of the species than an omnipotent being who cares if I cheat on my wife, who wins the superbowl, or where a hurricane hits.

Thats not to say I dont believe in a moral compass or compassion, but I dont believe in the need for a higher reason to be a good person.

QuoteHe started collecting stories of people who had been pronounced clinically dead but were later revived.

mr. Moody seems to be suffering from acute confirmation bias.

QuoteAlexander says his neocortex was “offline” and his brain “wasn’t working at all” during his coma. Yet he says he reasoned, experienced emotions, embarked on a journey â€" and saw heaven.

memory's a tricky beast.  it can easily build a scene for you and tell you it happened at a time when it couldn't have.

QuoteColton is now 13 and says he still remembers meeting Jesus in heaven.

i can't wait for this kid to grow up and admit that he and his father fabricated the whole story for a quick buck.

overall, this seems to be a bunch ov people whose malfunctioning brains told them exactly what they wanted to hear.

edit for clarity:  i'm not calling anyöne crazy here--i mean brains quite literally malfunctioning due to lack ov oxygen and all those other fun little side effects ov a body on its way out the door.

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on June 25, 2013, 05:38:54 PM

QuoteHe started collecting stories of people who had been pronounced clinically dead but were later revived.

mr. Moody seems to be suffering from acute confirmation bias.

QuoteAlexander says his neocortex was “offline” and his brain “wasn’t working at all” during his coma. Yet he says he reasoned, experienced emotions, embarked on a journey â€" and saw heaven.

memory's a tricky beast.  it can easily build a scene for you and tell you it happened at a time when it couldn't have.

QuoteColton is now 13 and says he still remembers meeting Jesus in heaven.

i can't wait for this kid to grow up and admit that he and his father fabricated the whole story for a quick buck.

overall, this seems to be a bunch ov people whose malfunctioning brains told them exactly what they wanted to hear.

How is it that you know those who had these experiences had malfunctioning brains?  I think that is a personal view is it not?  :)  The first situation describes the experiences of a Medical Doctor.  Modern Western Medicine is a scientific discipline.  The doctor was declared dead by other doctors trained in scientific method.  Modern technological devices showed that during the extended period of this mans death there was no function what-so-ever in any part of his brain. You state that memory is a tricky beast (I agree) but how can memories be formed by a dead brain? How could his conscience form new memories when by all scientific accounts he was "unconscious" until he was revived?  Knowing the science of the body and brain, this doctor concluded after an extensive period of examining his own clinical death and revival that what he experienced while brain dead cannot be explained by science.  This is a man educated in scientific method and medicine.  To conclude that his brain is malfunctioning is at the very least unprovable and by all indications unlikely. 

Quote from: Demosthenes on June 25, 2013, 04:17:53 PM
I think the idea that our consciousness transcends the mortal coil is a romantic idea. I would LOVE to think that our consciousness is more than a series of chemical reactions causing electrical impulses.

There is enough that is still unknown about the brain and body that I am more than willing to believe in more, which is why I am not a straight athiest, but I simply dont think any of the religions are close to being accurate. Im personally at a point where I am more inclined to believe in alien intervention of  the creation of the species than an omnipotent being who cares if I cheat on my wife, who wins the superbowl, or where a hurricane hits.

Thats not to say I dont believe in a moral compass or compassion, but I dont believe in the need for a higher reason to be a good person.

Demo, I find no flaw in your thinking and agree that human beings should have no need for a higher reasoning to be good and moral people.  In my experience one does not have to believe in a "higher being" in order to have an understanding that what is our conscience may indeed not be restricted to physical form.  I find that many who hold to the idea that conscience is restricted to brain function and the physical structure of the brain generally have ideas regarding spirituality in the human experience that are based in part on what they have experienced according to the beliefs proposed by a particular religious discipline or disciplines.  Has your life experience ever included ritual or spiritual experiences of indigenous and isolated people, many of whom live outside of technology?  Has nothing in your life ever happened that was at all inexplicable and yet powerfully moving in your life?

I ask not to grill you on your beliefs but rather in an effort to understand what is in the hearts and minds of folks when it comes to a declaration of atheism.  Again, I don't have a judgement against anyone's personal beliefs as long as they don't impose them on others be they believers or non-believers  :)

Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
There is no such thing as heaven. The idea is laughable at best, delusional and insane at worst.

Interesting comment.  I wonder if you wouldnt mind elaborating?

And really I have two questions that Im interested in hearing your point of view on:
1.  What is your definition of Heaven?  And I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but many people are talking about very different things when they reference 'heaven'.  I just wonder what you are talking about.

2.  Do you have the same opinion on the idea of an after or additional life/existence?  A place that your consciousness functions in besides the body and brain?

Stephen, compelling questions.  I would particularly like to hear the opinions of other posters on your second question.  :)

Quote from: Timkin on June 25, 2013, 03:07:03 PM

  It is difficult to fathom that we only have this paradox we are in now, and that there is nothing once we cease to exist here.

Personally, I believe there has to be some transformation beyond this life.  But is it exactly as we have been taught throughout our lives? 

I think it is certain that each of us will find out.

I agree Timkin, there is indeed some transformation beyond this life.  ;)

Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
There is no such thing as heaven. The idea is laughable at best, delusional and insane at worst.

Interesting comment.  I wonder if you wouldnt mind elaborating?

And really I have two questions that Im interested in hearing your point of view on:
1.  What is your definition of Heaven?  And I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but many people are talking about very different things when they reference 'heaven'.  I just wonder what you are talking about.

2.  Do you have the same opinion on the idea of an after or additional life/existence?  A place that your consciousness functions in besides the body and brain?

Elaboration:

If we take the definition of heaven seriously (according to OED: a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky), then, I think we need to call Bellevue and see if they have any extra beds.

Believing that god has an abode, or that god bears some physical relationship to planet earth (he's above!), is an insane idea. (OED: in a state of mind that prevents normal perception.) Do I really need to elaborate?

Furthermore, the rationale of a heaven is wrong, morally speaking. Here we go: if you kiss ass and do what you're told (because the Bible/Tora/Quran says you should), you'll get a shot of going to heaven. If you don't, you're set for eternal damnation somewhere near the earth's core w/ the devil and all the bad people you once knew. Small thinking if you ask me. The idea rewards ass kissing and complete obedience and casts off people with a free mind. One could have a completely clear moral compass and still miss the ship. Stupid.

Wouldn't post something this long unless I thought it was worth reading. My thoughts entirely. Oh, and some great history too!

Heaven: A fool's paradise by Johann Hari from http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/heaven-a-fools-paradise-1949399.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/heaven-a-fools-paradise-1949399.html)

John Lennon urged us: "Imagine there's no heaven/It's easy if you try/No hell below us/Above us only sky." Yet the religious aren't turning to Lennonism any faster than Leninism. Today, according to a new book by Lisa Miller, Newsweek's religion correspondent, 81 per cent of Americans and 51 per cent of Brits say they believe in heaven â€" an increase of 10 per cent since a decade ago. Of those, 71 per cent say it is "an actual place". Indeed, 43 per cent believe their pets â€" cats, rats, and snakes â€" are headed into the hereafter with them to be stroked for eternity. So why can't humans get over the Pearly Gates?
In reality, the heaven you think you're headed to â€" a reunion with your relatives in the light â€" is a very recent invention, only a little older than Goldman Sachs. Most of the believers in heaven across history would find it unrecognisable. Miller's book, Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination with the Afterlife, teases out the strange history of heaven â€" and shows it's not what you think.

Heaven is constantly shifting shape because it is a history of subconscious human longings. Show me your heaven, and I'll show you what's lacking in your life. The desert-dwellers who wrote the Bible and the Koran lived in thirst â€" so their heavens were forever running with rivers and fountains and springs. African-American slaves believed they were headed for a heaven where "the first would be last, and the last would be first" â€" so they would be the free men dominating white slaves. Today's Islamist suicide-bombers live in a society starved of sex, so their heaven is a 72-virgin gang-bang. Emily Dickinson wrote: " 'Heaven' â€" is what I cannot Reach!/The Apple on the Tree/Provided it do hopeless â€" hang/That â€" 'Heaven' is â€" to Me!"

We know precisely when this story of projecting our lack into the sky began: 165BC, patented by the ancient Jews. Until then, heaven â€" shamayim â€" was the home of God and his angels. Occasionally God descended from it to give orders and indulge in a little light smiting, but there was a strict no-dead-people door policy. Humans didn't get in, and they didn't expect to. The best you could hope for was for your bones to be buried with your people in a shared tomb and for your story to carry on through your descendants. It was a realistic, humanistic approach to death. You go, but your people live on.

So how did the idea of heaven â€" as a perfect place where God lives and where you end up if you live right â€" rupture this reality? The different components had been floating around "in the atmosphere of Jerusalem, looking for a home", as Miller puts it, for a while. The Greeks believed there was an eternal soul that ascended when you die. The Zoroastrians believed you would be judged in the end-time for your actions on earth. The Jews believed in an almighty Yahweh.

But it took a big bloody bang to fuse them. In the run up to heaven's invention, the Jews were engaged in a long civil war over whether to open up to the Greeks and their commerce or to remain sealed away, insular and pure. With no winner in sight, King Antiochus got fed up. He invaded and tried to wipe out the Jewish religion entirely, replacing it with worship of Zeus. The Jews saw all that was most sacred to them shattered: they were ordered to sacrifice swine before a statue of Zeus that now dominated their Temple. The Jews who refused were hacked down in the streets.

Many young men fled into the hills of Palestine to stage a guerrilla assault â€" now remembered as the Hanukkah story. The old Jewish tale about how you continue after you die was itself dying: your bones couldn't be gathered by your ancestors anymore with so many Jews scattered and on the run. So suddenly death took on a new terror. Was this it? Were all these lives ending forever, for nothing? One of the young fighters â€" known to history only as Daniel â€" announced that the martyred Jews would receive a great reward. "Many of those who sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt," he wrote and launched us on the road to the best-selling 1990s trash 90 Minutes in Heaven. Daniel's idea was wildly successful. Within a century, most Jews believed in heaven, and the idea has never died.

But while the key components of heaven were in place, it was not the kumbaya holiday camp it has become today. It was a place where you and God and the angels sat â€" but Jesus warned "there is no marriage in heaven". You didn't join your relatives. It was you and God and eternal prayer. It was paradise, but not as we know it.

Even some atheists regard heaven as one of the least-harmful religious ideas: a soothing blanket to press onto the brow of the bereaved. But its primary function for centuries was as a tool of control and intimidation. The Vatican, for example, declared it had a monopoly on St Peter's VIP list â€" and only those who obeyed their every command and paid them vast sums for Get-Out-of-Hell-Free cards would get them and their children onto it. The afterlife was a means of tyrannising people in this life. This use of heaven as a bludgeon long outlasted the Protestant Reformation. Miller points out that in Puritan New England, heaven was not primarily a comfort but rather "a way to impose discipline in this life."

It continues. Look at Margaret Toscano, a sixth-generation Mormon who was a fanatical follower of Joseph Smith in her youth. Then she studied feminism at university. She came back to her community and argued that women ought to be allowed to become priests. The Mormon authorities â€" the people who denied black people had souls until 1976 â€" ordered her to recant, and said if she didn't, she wouldn't go to heaven with the rest of her family. She refused. Now her devastated sisters believe they won't see her in the afterlife.

Worse still, the promise of heaven is used as an incentive for people to commit atrocities. I have seen this in practice: I've interviewed wannabe suicide bombers from London to Gaza to Syria, and they all launched into reveries about the orgy they will embark on in the clouds. Similarly, I was once sent â€" as my own personal purgatory â€" undercover on the Christian Coalition Solidarity tour of Israel. As we stood at Megido, the site described in the Book of Revelation as the launchpad for the apocalypse, they bragged that hundreds of thousands of Arabs would soon be slaughtered there while George Bush and his friends are raptured to heaven as a reward for leading the Arabs to their deaths. Heaven can be an inducement to horror.

Yet there is an unthinking "respect" automatically accorded to religious ideas that throttles our ability to think clearly about these questions. Miller's book â€" after being a useful exposition of these ideas â€" swiftly turns itself into a depressing illustration of this. She describes herself as a "professional sceptic", but she is, in fact, professionally credulous. Instead of trying to tease out what these fantasies of an afterlife reveal about her interviewees, she quizzes everyone about their heaven as if she is planning to write a Lonely Planet guide to the area, demanding more and more intricate details. She only just stops short of demanding to know what the carpeting will be like. But she never asks the most basic questions: where's your evidence? Where are you getting these ideas from? These questions are considered obvious when we are asking about any set of ideas, except when it comes to religion, when they are considered to be a slap in the face.

Of course there's plenty of proof that the idea of heaven can be comforting, or beautiful â€" but that doesn't make it true. The difference between wishful thinking and fact-seeking is something most six-year-olds can grasp, yet Miller â€" and, it seems, the heaven-believing majority â€" refuse it here. Yes, I would like to see my dead friends and relatives again. I also would like there to be world peace, a million dollars in my current account, and for Matt Damon to ask me to marry him. If I took my longing as proof they were going to happen, you'd think I was deranged.

"Rationalist questions are not helpful," announces one of her interviewees â€" a professor at Harvard, no less. This seems to be Miller's view too. She stresses that to believe in heaven you have to make "a leap of faith" â€" but in what other field in life do we abandon all need for evidence? Why do it in one so crucial to your whole sense of existence? And if you are going to "leap" beyond proof, why leap to the Christian heaven? Why not convince yourself you are going to live after death in Narnia, or Middle Earth, for which there is as much evidence? She doesn't explain: her arguments dissolve into a feel-good New Age drizzle.

True, Miller does cast a quick eye over the only "evidence" that believers in heaven offer â€" the testimonies of people who have had near-death experiences. According to the medical journal The Lancet, between 9 per cent and 18 per cent of people who have been near death report entering a tunnel, seeing a bright light, and so on. Dinesh D'Souza, in his preposterous book Life After Death, presents this as "proof" for heaven. But in fact there are clear scientific explanations. As the brain shuts down, it is the peripheral vision that goes first, giving the impression of a tunnel. The centre of your vision is what remains, giving the impression of a bright light. Indeed, as Miller concedes: "Virtually all the features of [a near-death experience] â€" the sense of moving through a tunnel, an 'out of body' feeling, spiritual awe, visual hallucinations, and intense memories â€" can be reproduced with a stiff dose of ketamine, a horse tranquilliser frequently used as a party drug." Is a stoner teenager in a K-hole in contact with God and on a day-trip to heaven? Should the religious be dropping horse dope on Sundays? But Miller soon runs scared from the sceptical implications of this, offering the false balance of finding one very odd scientist who says that these experiences could point beyond life â€" without any proof at all.

But even if you set aside the absence of even the tiniest thread of evidence, there is a great conceptual hole at the heart of heaven â€" one that has gnawed at even its fondest believers. After a while, wouldn't it be excruciatingly dull? When you live in the desert, a spring seems like paradise. But when you have had the spring for a thousand years, won't you be sick of it? Heaven is, in George Orwell's words, an attempt to "produce a perfect society by an endless continuation of something that had only been valuable because it was temporary". Take away the contrast, and heaven becomes hell.

And yet, and yet ... of course I understand why so many people want to believe in heaven, even now, even in the face of all the evidence, and all reason. It is a way â€" however futilely â€" of trying to escape the awful emptiness of death. As Philip Larkin put it: "Not to be here/Not to be anywhere/And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true". To die. To rot. To be nothing. We wouldn't be sane if we didn't seek a way to leap off this conveyor-belt heading towards a cliff.

So yes, there is pain in seeing the truth about Heaven â€" but there is also a liberation in seeing beyond the childhood myths of our species. In The Epic of Gilgamesh, written in Babylon 4,000 years ago, the eponymous hero travels into the gardens of the gods in an attempt to discover the secret of eternal life. His guide tells him the secret â€" there is no secret. This is it. This is all we're going to get. This life. This time. Once. "Enjoy your life," the goddess Siduri tells him. "Love the child who holds you by the hand, and give your wife pleasure in your embrace." It's Lennon's dream, four millennia ahead of schedule: above us, only sky. Gilgamesh returns to the world and lives more intensely and truly and deeply than before, knowing there is no celestial after-party and no forever. After all this time, can't we finally follow Gilgamesh to a world beyond heaven?

Well Ben, I actually agree with your commentary in the first paragraph. 

Regarding the second paragraph, I would again point out that when you speak of perceptions and normality you are in some ways suggesting that there is a normal for perception.  There isn't one.  :)

As to your last paragraph two things stand out.  First you didn't read the whole article on the link.  If you had you would have known there is a great deal of commentary that states the view that many both within and outside of specific religious disciplines "do not" believe that one has to believe in a particular doctrine or God in order to get to heaven.  Recently, even the Pope declared that even atheists can go to heaven.  lol  I agree that it is absurd to think that a person who has lived well would be excluded from a heaven.  Further it is even more ridiculous to believe that a small child or a person who had no exposure to religious belief systems would be damned. 

So may I ask what sources or personal experiences you are basing your judgements upon as your comments seem to indicate your ideas are based in a single religious view regarding a heaven, earth or devil.  :)


Secondly is that your commentary is based on what you understand to be the collective thinking of all individuals who believe there is some sort of existence or consciousness after death.  There is much more in the way of belief systems that do not hinge on a heaven or hell afterlife. 

Goodness Ben, you type quickly.  lol Just saw you have put up another more lengthy post.  Going to read it now.  Would you mind responding to this post while I read the next?   Thanks.

I believe there is something after this life.  To me, to not believe would take away any purpose of living now.  Just to be rewarded with nothingness, a black void?  I cannot even fathom what that next stage, and I am not sure I am supposed to comprehend that at this stage.

As for gods and churches and religions, I choose to use them to find hope in some things.  I use them to try understand why things happen beyond my realm of explanation.

I do not attend any organized worship or religious services, however a very good friend goes to a well known church downtown that seems to attract a lot of flack told me something that I liked: "I would rather believe in the story of the bible and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find out that it is true".  Logic like that I cannot argue with.  I think everyone believes in something, be it a light bulb or sun or deity.  It helps us explain what we have yet to understand

Wow Ben, that is a lengthy read. lol

I completely agree that the idea of a heaven has morphed and changed over time depending upon what people wanted or needed the concept of heaven to be in order to not only comfort themselves but also to put their minds around this wordly existence and what may follow it.  What a heaven may be again ties to personal perceptions (I keep using the word for a reason) of what is right, wrong, good or undesirable as it relates to human actions and experiences on earth.  Depending upon what those experiences are a person or group of persons may come up with a theology or concept that puts the answers to all questions about our human existence into a form that ends up with black or white conclusions be they heaven and earth or life and oblivion. The problem is the human experience is not an either or and changes dramatically from one person to another, one culture to another or one perception to another.  We do not live in a world of good or bad, black or while.  We live in the vast gray areas of experiences and those experiences can create within us a plethora of emotions.  It is the nature of human beings to question, investigate and try to understand the reason for our being.  If one chooses to think our existence is simply the result of an evolutionary process, what is the evolutionary reason behind the need to know our origins, our planet, our universe and the world both inside and outside of us?  If we are all just about atoms moving within a form and electric impulses within a brain, what is the reason for our deep need to understand our reality?  If it were just a function of living and dying, there is no biological or evolutionary need to know what we are and why we live.  Yet that is the driving question behind the views and thoughts of both believers and non believers.  In order to not believe you must first question "What is reality?"  You then use your own experiences, views, insights and perceptions of the world around you to answer the question.  Why would an organic creature need to know the answers to these questions in order to live and die?

(I will address other things further into the conversation but stop with this one query in order to make the discussion easier to follow)  :)

"She stresses that to believe in heaven you have to make "a leap of faith" â€" but in what other field in life do we abandon all need for evidence? Why do it in one so crucial to your whole sense of existence?"

Indeed, the very idea that we have an existence requires "a leap of faith". For all you know you are butterfly having a dream that you are a human.  (Read Kierkegaard)

Belief of what happens after death cannot be examined using objective scientific methods. We cannot "know" rationally what will happen. Therein lies the distinction between "knowing" and "believing". Matters involving our immediate observation require assumptions of an orderly universe, confidence in our observations and ability to process information, and confidence that it exists in some sort of orderly context. Matters beyond our immediate observation require even greater assumptions.

Religion is about "belief", not about direct knowledge. It may be a belief predicated upon common assumptions, on traditional teachings, on literary interpretation and so forth. But it is very much a matter of "belief". That is why we Christians say, "I believe...", rather than "I know..."

HEAVY MAN!

Ben you obviously have never found my poppy patch or you would believe in heaven. LOL.

Quote from: Starbuck on June 25, 2013, 08:09:35 PM
"She stresses that to believe in heaven you have to make "a leap of faith" â€" but in what other field in life do we abandon all need for evidence? Why do it in one so crucial to your whole sense of existence?"

Indeed, the very idea that we have an existence requires "a leap of faith". For all you know you are butterfly having a dream that you are a human.  (Read Kierkegaard)

Belief of what happens after death cannot be examined using objective scientific methods. We cannot "know" rationally what will happen. Therein lies the distinction between "knowing" and "believing". Matters involving our immediate observation require assumptions of an orderly universe, confidence in our observations and ability to process information, and confidence that it exists in some sort of orderly context. Matters beyond our immediate observation require even greater assumptions.

Religion is about "belief", not about direct knowledge. It may be a belief predicated upon common assumptions, on traditional teachings, on literary interpretation and so forth. But it is very much a matter of "belief". That is why we Christians say, "I believe...", rather than "I know..."

Who is the she in she stresses?

Zactly Ock!  lmao

Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?

Quote from: JayBird on June 25, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
I believe there is something after this life.  To me, to not believe would take away any purpose of living now.  Just to be rewarded with nothingness, a black void?  I cannot even fathom what that next stage, and I am not sure I am supposed to comprehend that at this stage.

As for gods and churches and religions, I choose to use them to find hope in some things.  I use them to try understand why things happen beyond my realm of explanation.

I do not attend any organized worship or religious services, however a very good friend goes to a well known church downtown that seems to attract a lot of flack told me something that I liked: "I would rather believe in the story of the bible and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find out that it is true".  Logic like that I cannot argue with.  I think everyone believes in something, be it a light bulb or sun or deity.  It helps us explain what we have yet to understand

Indeed, it is your right to approach belief and this world reality in the way that not only makes the most sense to you, but also in a way that gives you comfort.  I have heard the comment about belief in the bible as a safe bet, almost a no harm done sort of position to take in case some part of us survives death.  The flaw I find in the statement is that is stems from fear and that comes from much of what the bible teaches about a wrathful god and afterlife. To me that belief does do harm to many.  It's a default position, a better be safe than sorry stance to protect oneself if indeed the bible were true and descriptions of an after life were accurate you would literally suffer a hell of a mess if you didn't believe in the bible prior to death.  I personally reject this notion based in fear.

A simple question for me to atheists would be what harm is there in believing in a divinity as long as those beliefs are not imposed upon others? If indeed there is nothing but oblivion after death what harm does belief do if  it does not infringe on your life or the life of others who think differently? 

For believers and non believers in death they will find what they "believed" they would find at the time of their passing. Then they will awake to their own consciousness and what it means at the point they are ready to understand.  Some will experience oblivion until their physically unbound consciousness awakes, others will see Jesus, others will see Buddha, others will see relatives, others will see angels.  Whatever we perceive to be the realities of death will be what we initially experience but not the entirety of what is.  For any belief system that is predicated on consciousness as expressed in a single physical existence one might ask, how would a small child have any concept of what to expect after life?  The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.  Knowledge is carried forward and eternal, so even a child will have a reference of "experiences" to apply after death as will those who are living this life and still remain "asleep" when it comes to knowing the reality of their unlimited consciousness and divinity. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 25, 2013, 08:11:53 PM
HEAVY MAN!

Ben you obviously have never found my poppy patch or you would believe in heaven. LOL.

The closest I ever came to believing in a god/higher power was during an acid trip. Then, post trip, I had a revelation. Religious belief and experience has a direct correlation to a chemically altered brain state (whether those chemicals are synthetic or organic, well....).

Quote from: JayBird on June 25, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
I believe there is something after this life.  To me, to not believe would take away any purpose of living now.  Just to be rewarded with nothingness, a black void?  I cannot even fathom what that next stage, and I am not sure I am supposed to comprehend that at this stage.

Interesting post.

The question remains...does your dog have a "purpose"? Elephants? Monkeys? Trees? Air? Bacteria? In the scientific sense, yes, but not in the subjective sense you're looking at. What purpose do we have? Why do we NEED a purpose? If you were to suddenly find out humans have no purpose, what would you do? Kill yourself?

Moreover, you mention reward...why do we need to be rewarded from just being? Seems foolish. Would you be a bad person if you were to find out there was no reward for living? Would you be "better" if there was a sure reward at the end?

One of my favorite Twain quotes: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

Just as your dog dies, and is put in the ground, and his/her consciousness ends, so will yours. I don't know why this makes everyone so uncomfortable.

Cheshire, I did read the whole article. It was hardly an "article", in the news-sense. It was more a bunch of subjective and anecdotal thoughts on heaven. Varying viewpoints, sure, but all equally nuts.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
So may I ask what sources or personal experiences you are basing your judgements upon as your comments seem to indicate your ideas are based in a single religious view regarding a heaven, earth or devil.  :)

My thoughts on religion come from three things: (a) formal schooling (b) informal schooling (c) travel. I've taken tons of religious classes in undergrad. It was a minor. Informal schooling: reading about Jesus, Gilgamesh, Hammurabi, Allah, Buddha, Tibetans and Native Americans etc etc yada yada. Travel: 30 countries and counting, rich, poor, sick, healthy. All of that synthesized: while the details vary, humans/cultures/civilizations have the same needs, uses, and justifications for religion. The underlying purpose is always the same.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 08:01:20 PM
Why would an organic creature need to know the answers to these questions in order to live and die?

Because are brains are too highly developed. I know that answer won't placate any of you, but it is what it is.

^No one needs placating here.  I am enjoying the discussion and differing perspectives about just being human.

Now as to all the comments in the article or discussion on the CNN beliefs site, you call them equally nuts according to your personal standards.  The difficulty with life and perceptions is that what you might see as nuts others may see as inspirational and the truth is both are equally sane in their perceptions according to their own beliefs and views.  I am surprised if you read the CNN piece that you did not acknowledge that not all folks who believe in a heaven think those who don't believe will be excluded.  In fairness not all do. 

Clarify if you might what you mean when you say the underlying purpose is the same?  It sounds as if you have read and studied quite a bit of theology and religion as well as traveled widely.  Of course reading and studying about an experience is still not the same as being immersed in the spiritual traditions and cultures of others.  If you have spent extensive time actually experiencing the rituals and religious practices of other cultures, please share.

To your last statement,  Why are our brains too highly developed?  What evolutionary process would cause that development if it was unneeded for human survival?  What evolutionary need is there for the human brain to question existence or reality, life or death?  There must be a purpose for the brain developing the ability to question our existence and the universe is there not?   

Interesting about your acid trip. Can't wait to hear my old hippie friend Ock comment on this. lol
Some in science have said that the chemical trigger of acid, may in fact be an artificial method of engaging a part of the brain that allows for spiritual experiences.  The question is are those experiences born of the brain or is the brain chemistry altered enough that it can open up to information outside of its form.  If this sounds nuts at first glance consider this.  Today we accept that we can talk on cellphones and use computers to communicate and gather information.  That is because science has learned the mechanics of how this information can be sent and received.  Perhaps the truth is that science has yet to understand the brains ability to send and receive both information and enlightenment.  In my experience this is the truth of the matter.

Someone brought up the question as to why we seek to know about our purpose and about  a possible god .... or something of that nature.  To me, it seems that as a consequence of our enhanced brain abilities over the “others”, humans seek order, that is, when our lives allow time for it.  Therefore we seek answers to any questions we can imagine.  It is natural for humans to embrace challenges, and to experiment with limits.  The problem arrives when too many individuals, by way of ignorance and irrational thinking, arrive at beliefs totally unsupported by evidence .... beliefs involving revealed religions, witches etc.   

But.. yes, absolutely, there are many beliefs regarding many religions and gods and heavens and hells.  And they are all bunk, having been developed as a consequence of human needs, allowed via ignorance, and perpetuated by irrational thinking, and those who gain from the nonsense.  The babysitter or grandmother, duped by earlier irrationals, passed to the child the same nonsense about gods and demons and heavens and hells.  Enough!  There is no god or heaven except in the minds of those who have been taught since birth to believe that they exist.   

All evidence allows me to say that we, each of us, are nothing more than animals.... living temporary lifespans on this earth ... just as the insect, the rat, the fish, the bird, and the elephant.  To think that there is a heaven, or that our consciousness might travel or wander outside of our physical brains, or outside of our bodies, is only a wish, or a longing......as suggested in the article posted by ben says. 

When our body ends its tour of living, and when our brain no longer receives the necessary nourishment via the blood supply, the physiology of the brain no longer allows the process of consciousness.  And therefore, there is nothing remaining in the dead individual’s body or brain other than cells and organs which will soon decompose and return to the earth, from which they came.  End of journey.  No energy exists within the dead individual.  No soul existed in the live individual, nor in the dead...  nor is any energy transmitted from the dead at the moment of dying.
     
Consciousness?  I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that any form of one’s consciousness can exist outside of the body.  Can anyone provide evidence?  Consciousness emerges within the brain as a consequence of electrochemical activity within the brain, and the process of consciousness remains within the confines of the brain.

Consciousness is a process .... a state..... located within the physiology of the brain.  The conscious state represents the center of the individual, the “I” of the individual, and functions to allow the individual to interact successfully within its environment.

Any suggestion that an individual’s consciousness wanders somehow outside of the physical brain has absolutely no evidentiary support.  Anyone believing that consciousness does wander, might also believe in heaven, and in one or more of the various gods available to the human population .... beliefs akin to those in earlier times when some believed in witches, that the world was flat, or that Zeus was something or someone of importance.

Any wandering of consciousness to areas outside of the brain or the body would have to involve some kind of energy.  Nothing happens without some kind of energy.  All energy, even the very weak varieties, can be detected by various sensors and monitors.  There is no mysterious energy which escapes the individual, certainly not in the form of a “consciousness”.

The only energy that exits the individual is in the form of heat, and in the form of physical movement .... speech..... locomotion.... physical work.  Are there any other forms of energy which exits the human body?  I might have missed something.

Why does there have to be a heaven?  Why does there have to be a purpose in living?  Why does there have to be a reason for us humans being here?  We are exactly like the insects and the elephants.  We are animals.  We die and disappear just as the cat or the dog.
   
Our short lives on this little earth should cause each of us to be kind to one another, to appreciate the wonders of nature and the human community ....  to do good in this life, as there is no future life.  Once one escapes the illusion of another life, one can live better, and enjoy, this life.  This life is the only one each of us will have.  Treat it with care.  Do not waste this life in an effort to prepare for another, as it surely does not exist.

I rest my case..... for a spell.  The mean old atheist will be back.       
       

Well goodness gracious Ron, I was wondering why it took you so long to chime in. lol   

I am glad your struggling human brain has found "order" in your view of the world and our existence. For you there clearly is nothing beyond your organic form and brain function and that's fine by me. No one is trying to change your mind about your beliefs but I think it is interesting that in some of the discussion so far there has been a need on the part of some non believers to call others views, insane, crazy or bunk. If a point or view has value, there is no need to do anything but state that view and it will stand on it's own merit.  What purpose is there to impose a provocative/negative descriptive on views different than your own unless the aim is to make the views of others easier to ridicule.  That only ends up with conversations that devolve into your an exchange of your wrong, no, your wrong, your ignorant, no you are ignorant and it goes downhill from there.   ::)  There is no value in that type of exchange.

I guess it never occurs to you that you may be mistaken about any of your views nor question at any level the conclusions about life you have yourself drawn.  It's one thing to state a view but quite another to do so while concluding others beliefs are bunk.  Unless you are really willing to "listen" to others ideas and perceptions what is the point of discussion? 

I hate to break it to you Ron, but you don't have all the answers and your perceptions are not the only ones that have validity or value. That holds true for myself and others. Try a little humility in your approach and thinking.  I fear your mind is closed to all views and ideas that do not match your own and that is unfortunate because when you approach any discourse on a variety of topics your aim is simply to push those opinions on the ignorant world around you. That is no different than a religious fanatic pushing their reality on others, which you greatly disdain  Why don't you see that?  Forgive me for saying so but doing this is not meanness it's just misinformed and bred of an ego that place your views above others. You are a well read man but that does not make you all knowing.  None of us are. 

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?

To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?

Very interesting discussion. Downright depressing in places, as I live in hope.  I have said before to unbelievers, if I'm wrong, I have a dirt nap to look forward to, and I won't know the difference.  If you are wrong, I don't want to be you.  I choose to live with the blessings of God here, and in the hope of heaven later.

Oh, and Ben Says, being good doesn't get you into Heaven.  You can't be good enough, no matter how hard you try. because we humans will always fail somewhere along the line.  Ephesians 2:8.  For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.  We don't earn salvation, God gives it freely to those who make that leap of faith being discussed earlier.  He covers us with His grace, because he knows we can't be perfect, no matter how hard we try.  (And I know, some of us try harder than others.  :-) )

Yes, this is one of those things you have to take on faith.  God doesn't have to prove anything to us.  it's beyond presumption to expect Him to.  Hey, Creator of the Universe, of all that is seen and unseen, prove to  me you exist.  Really?  Jesus said to "doubting Thomas" in John 20:29, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

I appreciate what you have said Diane, and I apologize for being unable, so far, to soften my opinions.  I’ll work on a more appropriate way to convey my opinions.  And Debbie.... you are so far into .... well... you are heavily “into” your religion, and your god.   

But given the nature of the contrast between my thinking, and the thinking of a believer in one of the revealed religions, or of a believer in heaven, or of a believer in a god, it is difficult for me to express anything other than my beliefs.  Surely one must state his or her beliefs, else what is the use of discussion? 

I think the problem occurs because my beliefs are so far from the beliefs of many Jacksonvillians, and of some on this forum.  My confidence in my beliefs leaves little room for softening the message.  What should I do?  Lie about my beliefs?

My statements suggesting that those who believe in revealed religions suffer from ignorance and irrational thinking is somewhat blunt.  However, I sense that my statements would be supported as being true by most scientists and academics. 

My statements will not be supported by many Jacksonvillians.  I suspect that many Jacksonvillians will be offended by my statements.  This is unfortunate because I suspect that my statements, if voted on by most academics and scientists, would be found to be true.

Or, perhaps I should say, if the truth be known, my statements would be found to be true, and that it would finally be known that no gods exist, and that there is no heaven. 

I will entertain the idea of abandoning my effort to convey the truth according to my understanding, and live the lie and the myth along with others.

I suspect that there are some on this forum ... well, maybe one or two, who find my “scorched earth policy” somewhat refreshing.

The problem is that I am touching on beliefs held close by many, and they resent being told that they are ignorant and irrational.  As I’ve said before, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant, as one cannot know everything.  I am certainly ignorant about many things.  Of course, it is best not to be too ignorant, as an abundance of it might allow irrational beliefs and behavior.     

Debbie, I guess your views are drawn on Christian doctrine?  I ask because of the biblical quotes which serve to support a Christian view but what about the views of believers who stand outside of the Christian discipline?  Do you feel the Christian view applies to all of humanity? 

While I will readily agree that human beings are flawed, I cannot support the notion that one must be perfect or a believer in order to experience grace or divinity.  Living a good and loving life that includes caring and generosity for community and the needs for others is enough for much of the world.  It really is not reasonable in my opinion to impose a single belief on the entirety of humanity that implies that the understanding of one person or group is the only valid one.  I know the thought of a rule book for living a good life is appealing but whose rulebook is right?  It depends on who you ask and the most interesting answers are usually provide by those who live without a book of rules but in harmony with all around them.  :)

Quote from: ronchamblin on June 25, 2013, 10:39:21 PM
I appreciate what you have said Diane, and I apologize for being unable, so far, to soften my opinions.  I’ll work on a more appropriate way to convey my opinions.  And Debbie.... you are so far into .... well... you are heavily “into” your religion, and your god.   

But given the nature of the contrast between my thinking, and the thinking of a believer in one of the revealed religions, or of a believer in heaven, or of a believer in a god, it is difficult for me to express anything other than my beliefs.  Surely one must state his or her beliefs, else what is the use of discussion? 

I think the problem occurs because my beliefs are so far from the beliefs of many Jacksonvillians, and of some on this forum.  My confidence in my beliefs leaves little room for softening the message.  What should I do?  Lie about my beliefs?

My statements suggesting that those who believe in revealed religions suffer from ignorance and irrational thinking is somewhat blunt.  However, I sense that my statements would be supported as being true by most scientists and academics. 

My statements will not be supported by many Jacksonvillians.  I suspect that many Jacksonvillians will be offended by my statements.  This is unfortunate because I suspect that my statements, if voted on by most academics and scientists, would be found to be true.

Or, perhaps I should say, if the truth be known, my statements would be found to be true, and that it would finally be known that no gods exist, and that there is no heaven. 

I will entertain the idea of abandoning my effort to convey the truth according to my understanding, and live the lie and the myth along with others.

I suspect that there are some on this forum ... well, maybe one or two, who find my “scorched earth policy” somewhat refreshing.

The problem is that I am touching on beliefs held close by many, and they resent being told that they are ignorant and irrational.  As I’ve said before, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant, as one cannot know everything.  I am certainly ignorant about many things.  Of course, it is best not to be too ignorant, as an abundance of it might allow irrational behavior.     

Ron, in your own words. "One cannot know everything"!  Not knowing everything is not the same as ignorance or irrationality.  Not even the scientists and academics you look to in order to justify or support your views have all the answers, I mean they are just animals right?  lol

Meanwhile, you did not answer either of the last two questions I posed to you.  Why is that?

Oh .... sorry... I forgot the two questions.

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?



A proof on this kind of question is impossible of course.  But I can, before my beer affects my thinking too much, try an answer. 


The thinking process evolving within man involved an increased ability to solve problems, the trait which improved the likelihood of man’s survival as an individual, and therefore as a species.  As the general intelligence increased in man, there occurred also an increased ability to think abstractly, and to ponder difficult questions.


It seems probable that some of those questions would relate to man’s existence and purpose. 


Given that man achieved the habit of thinking in this manner of complexity and ability, then one might suggest that it became not only “natural” for him to do so, but “natural” for him to question aspects of his existence. 



To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?



Again, this kind of thing cannot be proven.  All we can do is believe according to the best evidences we have, or do not have. 


I will believe that consciousness does not exist outside of the human form until some evidence causes me to believe it does.


It would be more appropriate for me to ask you to prove the existence of the  phenomenon, as it seems easier to prove an existence, than to prove non-existence. 


In any case, the existence of consciousness outside of the human would cause some kind of detectible energy in the environment.  Any transmission of data requires some kind of energy.  Until some kind of consciousness energy emanating from the human is measured and detected, or the consequences of it is observed, how can anyone believe in its existence?


This is similar to a situation wherein I observe that there is no chair in room “A”, but you say there is a chair in room “A”.   You seem to say that there is a chair in room “A” (consciousness outside of the human form), even though there is no evidence of it.  I ask you to show me the evidence of the chair, but you cannot. You say.....  but I know its there. 


I ask you if you see evidence of consciousness outside of the human form.  You say no .... but you know its there. 


There has never been evidence of any kind of consciousness outside of the human form.  I suspect that what appears to be evidence, actually exists only within the mind of the one claiming the evidence.     

Diane, yes, based on Christian faith.  Although I have often said, we may be surprised by whom we meet in Heaven.  One of my favorite little poems, which I cut out and put in my scrapbook, goes like this.  Don't know the author, but it goes... I dreamed Death came the other night, and Heaven's gate swung wide.  With kindly grace, an angel came and ushered me inside.  And there, to my astonishment, stood folks I'd deemed unfit, of little worth.  Angry words rose to my lips, but never were set free, for every face showed stunned surprise.  No one expected me. 

I live my faith on earth, and hope for Heaven.  I leave it up to God who else gets there.  I just beg Him to include me in the population!

Ron, your beliefs, or rather your lack of them, don't offend me. I feel badly for you, although I'm sure you don't want my concern.  :-)

Quote from: ronchamblin on June 25, 2013, 11:37:42 PM
Oh .... sorry... I forgot the two questions.

Now to a specific point, What is the evolutionary reason for man to develop a thinking process that questions his own existence?  You say it is a natural thing.  Is it?  Why?  What makes it natural?  How can you prove it?



A proof on this kind of question is impossible of course.  But I can, before my beer affects my thinking too much, try an answer. 


The thinking process evolving within man involved an increased ability to solve problems, the trait which improved the likelihood of man’s survival as an individual, and therefore as a species.  As the general intelligence increased in man, there occurred also an increased ability to think abstractly, and to ponder difficult questions.


It seems probable that some of those questions would relate to man’s existence and purpose. 


Given that man achieved the habit of thinking in this manner of complexity and ability, then one might suggest that it became not only “natural” for him to do so, but “natural” for him to question aspects of his existence. 



To another point, how can you prove that consciousness does not exist outside of human form?  What is your proof?



Again, this kind of thing cannot be proven.  All we can do is believe according to the best evidences we have, or do not have. 


I will believe that consciousness does not exist outside of the human form until some evidence causes me to believe it does.


It would be more appropriate for me to ask you to prove the existence of the  phenomenon, as it seems easier to prove an existence, than to prove non-existence. 


In any case, the existence of consciousness outside of the human would cause some kind of detectible energy in the environment.  Any transmission of data requires some kind of energy.  Until some kind of consciousness energy emanating from the human is measured and detected, or the consequences of it is observed, how can anyone believe in its existence?


This is similar to a situation wherein I observe that there is no chair in room “A”, but you say there is a chair in room “A”.   You seem to say that there is a chair in room “A” (consciousness outside of the human form), even though there is no evidence of it.  I ask you to show me the evidence of the chair, but you cannot. You say.....  but I know its there. 


I ask you if you see evidence of consciousness outside of the human form.  You say no .... but you know its there. 


There has never been evidence of any kind of consciousness outside of the human form.  I suspect that what appears to be evidence, actually exists only within the mind of the one claiming the evidence.     

Firstly I am glad that you answered both questions by saying you cannot prove your view is factual, only what you believe to be true.  In fact you often speak about what you "believe". :)  In this way you are no different than those whose beliefs you challenge and wish to have proof of.  There is much that humanity does not know with regard to our existence and the nature of our human experience and neither science or religions can prove or disprove the existence of God or a divine intelligence.  There is no measure for that.

I think the mistake some atheists or non believers make when they think about the existence of religion is based upon the assumption that all such beliefs, spiritual or otherwise are based in fear or the longing to fill in the blanks of our own human reality as a way to put order into our lives or simply to give us comfort.  While that may be true in many situations, it is not true of all.  For many of us, connecting to a higher consciousness and divinity is merely the natural outcropping of an inner knowing and experience, not born of fear or longing but simply a response to what lives inside.  That knowing for me has been there my entire life.  I knew I was not just flesh and bones.  The best way for me to explain this is through a recognition that happened to me when I was a small child and first looked into a mirror.  I had crawled up on my parents bed and was looking into the large mirror on my mothers dresser.  I saw reflected there my mother and my father and a tiny little girl with blonde curls.  I stared at that little girl and my mother pointed and said, that's you honey.  I clearly remember looking at the form of that little girl and saying to myself, that not me, that's not what I look like.  How did I get in here (this body)?  I have always, always known and understood that the totality of what I am is not the flesh and blood of my form but rather a flesh and blood form that holds an extension of the consciousness of something far beyond the physical that travels for a while in human form.  I have always known there was purpose to my life and have always deeply felt and been connected to the world and people around me.  This understanding was born in me and will remain when my body dies.  There is no need for me to prove this to anyone else nor is there a fear that death is the end of consciousness.  I came into this life "remembering" and have never forgotten the truth of spirit and soul consciousness.  It saddens me that this inner understanding is lost to some and convoluted by religious doctrine by others.  We exist and have always existed in and out of physical form. For me it's not a matter of believing but rather of waking up and remembering eternal truths.  :)

"Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?"

Other religions have their own sets of belief, also. Some are identical or similar to Christian belief. Some are very differant. I do not believe that all beliefs are of equal value or equal benefit to the adherents (and non-adherents). Some are demonstrably inferior and some are demonstrably superior (dependant, of course, on the criteria used to evaluate them). From a utilitarian viewpoint, I think that Christianity has a lot to be recommended in western culture. I am "liberal" enough to feel comfortable drawing some value from eastern and other traditions, but I am a Christian in that I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the embodiment of that God Almighty in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died and was resurrected according to the Christian historic accounts and main-line understanding through the past two millenia. I do not believe that Christianity needs to be interpreted and expressed exclusively according to 19th century American philosophical constructs.

Quote from: Starbuck on June 26, 2013, 09:15:21 AM
"Good insights Starbuck, but does your statement only apply to Christian beliefs.  What about other religions?"

Other religions have their own sets of belief, also. Some are identical or similar to Christian belief. Some are very differant. I do not believe that all beliefs are of equal value or equal benefit to the adherents (and non-adherents). Some are demonstrably inferior and some are demonstrably superior (dependant, of course, on the criteria used to evaluate them). From a utilitarian viewpoint, I think that Christianity has a lot to be recommended in western culture. I am "liberal" enough to feel comfortable drawing some value from eastern and other traditions, but I am a Christian in that I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the embodiment of that God Almighty in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died and was resurrected according to the Christian historic accounts and main-line understanding through the past two millenia. I do not believe that Christianity needs to be interpreted and expressed exclusively according to 19th century American philosophical constructs.

Thank you for your clear and direct response.  Do you feel Christianity is superior to other religious views based upon your own opinion or the opinion of a pastor or past teachers and that there is a heaven?  What criterion are you using in order to make such a judgement?  What comes to mind are the words of an elder who once said "There are many roads to the Creator, one takes that path that best suits them!"

Cheshire, any "good" christian will tell you that you are wrong. Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, or burn in hell. The many roads quote is not from a religious partisan.

^The many roads quote is from a Native American elder whose life path is pretty much outside of what most view religion to be.  As to the Christian view on Jesus, I have indeed heard some proclaim what you have stated in your post, but not all I know take this view.  This is why I am interested to know what exactly Starbuck is using to measure faith and belief as a Christian as there are many who claim Christianity but there are innumerable versions of Christian belief.   

Stephen, do your believe that the majority of Baptists have it right about heaven or a hereafter? 

I have to be out most of today but will look for your view when I get back later in the day.  :)

By the way, I would agree that discussions about religious views, beliefs and non beliefs are the most difficult to have but worth having in a civil manner.  Personally I think productive and open dialog is a great path to understanding what makes folks hold such a variety of differing beliefs or no spiritual belief at all beyond we live and die and that's it.

Quote from: stephendare on June 26, 2013, 09:48:14 AM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 26, 2013, 09:45:57 AM
Stephen, do your believe that the majority of Baptists have it right about heaven or a hereafter? 

I have to be out most of today but will look for your view when I get back later in the day.  :)

I honestly don't know, Diane.

I think that I would be an idiot to pronounce an opinion on something that I have no way of knowing, to be honest.  And its something that I have quietly devoted a very long time of my life exploring.  Im soon to be fifty years old, and the older I get the more intrigued I am with the question.

I appreciate the truth in your answer Stephen.  I have some input on this which I will share for discussion later today upon my return. 

Quote from: stephendare on June 26, 2013, 09:41:54 AM

Quote from: Demosthenes on June 26, 2013, 09:31:39 AM
Cheshire, any "good" christian will tell you that you are wrong. Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, or burn in hell. The many roads quote is not from a religious partisan.

This is the thing that is so frustrating when discussing faith or religious belief in Jacksonville.  Very few of the alleged intellects or supposed free thinkers are able to talk about anything other than their frustration with one small sliver of fundamentalist baptists.  Its much easier and more open minded to actually talk to Baptists, Ive found.

What I am stating is, for most Christian sects, be it Catholicism, Mormonism, and yes, Baptists, the dogmatic truth. Its not passing judgement, its stating fact.

First Diane, let me just say thank you for posting this thread because even if I wasn't writing it is still thought-provoking just to read others thoughts.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
Indeed, it is your right to approach belief and this world reality in the way that not only makes the most sense to you, but also in a way that gives you comfort.  I have heard the comment about belief in the bible as a safe bet, almost a no harm done sort of position to take in case some part of us survives death.  The flaw I find in the statement is that is stems from fear and that comes from much of what the bible teaches about a wrathful god and afterlife. To me that belief does do harm to many.  It's a default position, a better be safe than sorry stance to protect oneself if indeed the bible were true and descriptions of an after life were accurate you would literally suffer a hell of a mess if you didn't believe in the bible prior to death.  I personally reject this notion based in fear.

True, however I would counter with the fact that I believe everyone is drawn to their belief in the afterlife (if they believe there is one) based on fear of death or of the unknown.  Once they begin to follow a faith and delve deeper into its meanings and gain an understanding, then they may lose that fear and instead take solace in the fact that they believe that is what the next stage will be.

And though it is a "default" position that brought them there, if they believe they believe.  It is my understanding, being raised Roman Catholic, that if you believe and have faith then you are rewarded with the kingdom.  Nothing about how one came to that belief.  I think you touched on that on a recent post that I just read.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
For believers and non believers in death they will find what they "believed" they would find at the time of their passing. Then they will awake to their own consciousness and what it means at the point they are ready to understand.  Some will experience oblivion until their physically unbound consciousness awakes, others will see Jesus, others will see Buddha, others will see relatives, others will see angels.  Whatever we perceive to be the realities of death will be what we initially experience but not the entirety of what is.  For any belief system that is predicated on consciousness as expressed in a single physical existence one might ask, how would a small child have any concept of what to expect after life?  The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.  Knowledge is carried forward and eternal, so even a child will have a reference of "experiences" to apply after death as will those who are living this life and still remain "asleep" when it comes to knowing the reality of their unlimited consciousness and divinity.

Along the lines of "What if all the religions of the world were all right?".  I love history and I love learning new things.  I am forever the geek and constantly learning, I take classes online and at FSCJ just for fun and the experience of finding new worlds of knowledge.  However, one area I am highly naive in is theological studies.  My formal training came in a B.S. in Psychology, later a Masters with another Bachelors in Sociology.  I have been told, enough times to at least give it credence, by those whom have studied the Bible, the Koran, the Torah that is really "closely related stories told from a different point of view".  However, I also can see how that same "story" can be used by political or fanatical forces to control a large group of people.  For instance, a king who needs the peasants to keep him comfortable so by pushing this Bible on them gives them hope that even though this is not the life they planned, they'll be rewarded in the next one.

QuoteThe answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.

This line is very much in agreement with those who study Buddhism, or whom believe in reincarnation.  Which gives credence to the theory that may be we are all right.  Maybe, just maybe, there is this "place" that we go to and stay.  Like a hotel.  Now to get in there, I need to pay.  I can pay with american money, euros, pesos, or fruits and berries but either way if I pay I will get in.  A rough analogy but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Interesting post.

The question remains...does your dog have a "purpose"? Elephants? Monkeys? Trees? Air? Bacteria? In the scientific sense, yes, but not in the subjective sense you're looking at. What purpose do we have? Why do we NEED a purpose? If you were to suddenly find out humans have no purpose, what would you do? Kill yourself?

We must have a purpose.  A driving force if you will.  Otherwise, why do you do what you do?  Why get up in the morning? To go to work. Why work? To make money. Why do you need money? To buy food. Why do you need food? To survive. I don't mean purpose as in "Why I am here", I mean it as in everything we do has a purpose.  Every organism known to us has a purpose.  When we lose sight of that purpose, we begin to falter.  Now some can attach to faith and regain their focus by aligning with another (some say greater) purpose, others cannot and this is when they fall into depression. Which can result tragically in death by suicide, drug abuse, or abusing others.  Well, that is getting off track, but I was trying to say if you don't have a purpose than why are you still here? Because yes, when people lose that purpose of getting out of bed and striving for something, that is when they kill themselves.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Moreover, you mention reward...why do we need to be rewarded from just being? Seems foolish. Would you be a bad person if you were to find out there was no reward for living? Would you be "better" if there was a sure reward at the end?

Not foolish at all.  Even science defines our brain as a "reward-based cognitive system".  Everything the human brain is geared to do is based on rewards.  Think about it for a minute.  We work to get paid. We are charitable to feel good.  We eat to satisfy our desire (not hunger, otherwise McDonalds wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is if we just ate to survive). I remember a study in college that was about the rewards system for the human.  For 7 days they tracked every single action from sleep to work to eating to resting or recreation, even breathing and motor responses such as blinking (rewarded with sight) and swallowing (rewarded with breath).  For each they had to list what the reward was.  Everything we do is based on reward, so it is only natural that whatever we perceive to be the afterlife is also reward-based because we can easily comprehend that.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
One of my favorite Twain quotes: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

This exact quote hung in my dorm room for three years and now hangs on a wall in my home.  However, I interpret it to be more a "why worry about tomorrow when today is here and now" type of quote.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Just as your dog dies, and is put in the ground, and his/her consciousness ends, so will yours. I don't know why this makes everyone so uncomfortable.

I don't think this makes anyone here uncomfortable, they wouldn't be participating if it did.  And yes, just like our pets we will one day perish. I think everyone is well aware of that fact.  Whether or not conciousness ends though, well that is the unknown.  Unfortunately, those whom can answer with certainty can no longer communicate with us.  So I guess we will just have to wait and see.



Now, I am not a tinfoil hat wearing, X-Files junkie who listens to Art Bell like it is the gospel.  However, I agree with Jodie Foster's character in Contact, "if there is nothing else out there, that's an awful lot of wasted space".  I have heard tons of theories, everything from we are just a giant snow globe on some lifeforms' desk to we are actually an alien race that crashed on earth millions of years ago.  There are more eccentric stories about aliens and creationism than there are people here most likely. 

I do believe there is some "higher power".  Do I believe it as it is written in the Bible, no I do not.  Humans, though it can be proven with some degree of certainty that we evolved from the amoeba and eventually became homo sapien, are very unique.  There is no other life form on this planet that has that ... consciousness, I guess is the word I am looking for ... that we do.  Theologians will profess that this is proof of a God.  Science says this was the result of need to adapt millions of years ago and we "developed" to what we are today.  Lately, I have read several good books explaining how science actually proves the existence of God.  They have not been powerful enough to make me believe, however they do cause me to stop and think.  I always seek the logical explanation.  When people "die and come back to life" and talk of seeing the bright light, it seems logical that was the operating table lights.  When they speak of transcending this world and being in another, it seems logical that the brain could not understand what happened and that was the easiest way to comprehend it.  Our mind creates "parallel" stories so that we can deal with certain scenarios.  This is evidenced in how "eyewitness" reports vary and how people who suffered great traumatic injury or experiences can cope and move on.

I will say their is something "special" within us.  If anyone here has been/is a nurse or doctor or EMT than you may understand.  In NJ we have volunteer fire and ems and I volunteered on my local rescue squad because it looked great on college applications. It also led to me becoming a combat medic when I enlisted in the Army to pay for that college.  I have had three people "pass on" in front of me. I can remember each incident clearly, and the change in the eyes is most compelling.  Unlike when you go hunting and kill the deer and it dies after you've caught up to it, there is a ... vacancy or exit of some sort that I cannot describe with words.  Based solely on these three experiences, I personally believe there is something beyond this life as we understand it.

And in the end, maybe every one of us is right.  I am really not sure.  All I know is that I am still young and open to any ideas that seem logical.  And until I leave this world as I know it, I will always be curious to learn more and gain a greater or different understanding.

Thanks again Diane and everyone else who is posting here, this is truly an educational experience.  It is a pleasure to be able to read people debating thoughts without being immature or rude and condescending to those with different views.

I see there has been a lot of posting since I was last here. Give me some time and hopefully I can adequately respond.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 05:51:42 PM
How is it that you know those who had these experiences had malfunctioning brains?  I think that is a personal view is it not?

you seem to've read and quoted my post in the half a minute before i fixed it to avoid exactly this misunderstanding--in your typical near-death experience, one's brain is by definition malfunctioning due to lack ov oxygen, weird chemical levels, and other quirks ov a body on the way out the back door.

besides, most ov us can't take a nap without tripping balls--and we realize that what we see while sleeping isn't objectively real.  why should we consider the things people see at half past coma o'clock any different?

For me... it is not a question of what I believe... or what others believe or disbelieve.  It is simply a matter of respecting those beliefs.  Having lived in and actively interacted with the peoples of many different regions... I have asked about their religion and beliefs in a curious and interested manner and always with respect.  Most are eager to share their creation story or various aspects of their religion.  The same holds true in this country when attending the wedding or funeral of someone of a denomination different from what I know.  Growing up roman Catholic... my first Baptist church experience was like something from another planet.  I recently attended a wedding at an Arabic Orthodox church(not sure of actual denomination) but it was very interesting and different.

The bottom line is... the beliefs of others(or non belief)... are theirs... and should be respected.   8)

$0.02

Quote from: JayBird on June 25, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
"I would rather believe in the story of the bible and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find out that it is true".  Logic like that I cannot argue with.

didn't realize people were still betting on Pascal.  funny how we keep applyïng it only to christianity.  i'd rather believe in the story ov the Baghavad-Gita and find it to be false, than to not believe in it and find it to be true--but there's not much evidence for either, so it makes no nevermind.

I think you're confusing traditions and beliefs....

Why should we respect beliefs? Sure, taking your hat inside a Temple or not talking during a service or showing up to a Catholic funeral even if your'e Muslim is the "right" thing to do...

But should we really respect that Mormons excluded blacks until 1978? Or that they baptize dead Holocaust victims? Should we respect that the Catholic church goes on trips to Africa and preaches abstinence and refuses to encourage condom use? How about churches that tell their members (which the sheep go on to tell others) that global warming is scientific speculation?

Stupid beliefs lead to stupid actions (or inactions). I refuse to respect someone who gives an inane reason behind a racist/stupid/unjustified/wrong act or thought. Pointing to a book and saying "this is why I'm saying/doing what I'm saying" deserves zero respect.

LOL...youth is a wonderful thing.

Quote from: ben says on June 26, 2013, 03:58:59 PM
I think you're confusing traditions and beliefs....

Why should we respect beliefs? Sure, taking your hat inside a Temple or not talking during a service or showing up to a Catholic funeral even if your'e Muslim is the "right" thing to do...

But should we really respect that Mormons excluded blacks until 1978? Or that they baptize dead Holocaust victims? Should we respect that the Catholic church goes on trips to Africa and preaches abstinence and refuses to encourage condom use? How about churches that tell their members (which the sheep go on to tell others) that global warming is scientific speculation?

Stupid beliefs lead to stupid actions (or inactions). I refuse to respect someone who gives an inane reason behind a racist/stupid/unjustified/wrong act or thought. Pointing to a book and saying "this is why I'm saying/doing what I'm saying" deserves zero respect.

well put.  i thoroughly agree.

NotNow, that was a dreadfully ambiguous post.  you gonna jump in with us, or is the water to cold for you?

I'll throw in with BT and Dare!.  Tolerance is a logical result of life experience.  Ben Says is a good young man who has many strong opinions.  His youth is obvious, and welcome.   

If you were to listen to those who are older and wiser than us, I believe you would find counsel to never ignore thousands of years of human history. 

I would also warn that we are not the mental giants that some would think.  There is a lot that we know we don't know.  There is almost certainly much, much more that we don't know we don't know.  :)

Quote from: NotNow on June 26, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
If you were to listen to those who are older and wiser than us, I believe you would find counsel to never ignore thousands of years of human history. 

thousands ov years ov human history have given us misogyny, homophobia, slavery, and all manner ov lesser unpleasantries.  they have yet to give us heaven.

Quote from: ben says on June 26, 2013, 03:58:59 PM
I think you're confusing traditions and beliefs....

Why should we respect beliefs? Sure, taking your hat inside a Temple or not talking during a service or showing up to a Catholic funeral even if your'e Muslim is the "right" thing to do...

But should we really respect that Mormons excluded blacks until 1978? Or that they baptize dead Holocaust victims? Should we respect that the Catholic church goes on trips to Africa and preaches abstinence and refuses to encourage condom use? How about churches that tell their members (which the sheep go on to tell others) that global warming is scientific speculation?

Stupid beliefs lead to stupid actions (or inactions). I refuse to respect someone who gives an inane reason behind a racist/stupid/unjustified/wrong act or thought. Pointing to a book and saying "this is why I'm saying/doing what I'm saying" deserves zero respect.

Goodness this thread is moving.  In the time it took me to type these words there were four more posts.  Interestingly, Stephen and I drew some of the same conclusions.  Here is my post.
Words and meanings can be a sticky thing, especially in discussions like this that can lead to the parsing of words.
Just for the sake of discussion consider this definition of "Tradition":

A tradition is a belief or behavior passed down within a group or society with symbolic meaning or special significance with origins in the past.

Now the definitions of Belief:

Belief is the "psychological state" in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

As you can see, both words are intertwined in some ways.  Words really do fail us in my opinion, when it comes to explaining some very abstract thought processes and ideas, especially in that the words we rely upon in a discussion like this can be charged with a variety of meanings, depending on the perception of those using them or even dependent upon their country and culture.  For instance, spirit, spiritual, religion, religious or belief can all mean very different things to different people.  I take the use of the word belief in the context of this conversation to represent the inner views that a person holds as true or sacred and those beliefs, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable to our own sensibilities they may be, are none the less the basis of core values another might adhere to.  Respecting their right to their own beliefs is just that.  No matter what we feel about their beliefs or traditions it is their right to believe what they might.  This does not however mean that you must agree with or embrace the others views, especially when those views are not inflicted upon others.  So let me be clear in what I am saying which is respecting a persons right to individual views does not mean agreeing with or embracing those beliefs. 

Now to the use of the descriptive "stupid" it's worth all of us remembering that what is "stupid" in our view or perception may make perfect sense to a person with a different view or perspective.  So is the view of another "stupid" or is it just a view that you do not agree with?  Sometimes for the sake of clarity it is wise to say, I don't agree with this view, tradition or belief.  :)  It generally makes for a better discussion because the truth is none of us want our views called stupid.

As to Not Now's words about youth.  They are not meant to insult.  :) What is beneath them is the understanding that most of us when we are young, especially in our teens and twenties have very rigid beliefs about many things.  We are certain in our ideas and perceptions sometimes to the point of cockiness.  We image our life experience is sufficient and our intellect great enough to form an unbending opinion about an issue or idea that we are not only sure is correct but will never, ever change.  Then when you have lived more years and had more experiences in the grey areas of life, you wake up one day and realize that you had it wrong when you were younger. That once fixed opinion has changed and in some cases as older adults we are bemused by how those strongly held opinions now fail the test of experience.  Over time our perceptions can and often will change and that really is part of the human experience. 

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on June 26, 2013, 04:55:34 PM

Quote from: NotNow on June 26, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
If you were to listen to those who are older and wiser than us, I believe you would find counsel to never ignore thousands of years of human history. 

thousands ov years ov human history have given us misogyny, homophobia, slavery, and all manner ov lesser unpleasantries.  they have yet to give us heaven.

lol.  Human history/experience has given us many things.  You have named a few of the unsavory gifts of human thinking but as to "heaven" whether or not we have gotten that depends upon who you are and if you believe in the concept.  For instance for some people, owning a home, having a great family and enough to live on is "heaven".  ;)  Besides as Stephen said "it gave us beer".

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on June 26, 2013, 04:55:34 PM

Quote from: NotNow on June 26, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
If you were to listen to those who are older and wiser than us, I believe you would find counsel to never ignore thousands of years of human history. 

thousands of years of human history have given us misogyny, homophobia, slavery, and all manner of lesser unpleasantries.  they have yet to give us heaven.

Thousands of years of human history have also given us mathematics, art, music, philosophy, architecture, as well.  Perhaps in all of that is a little vision of, and perhaps a small part of heaven and hell.

There are so many things that can't be quantified, aren't there?

okay, so it's a mixed bag, and i should choose my examples more carefully.

several ov the examples NotNow and Stephen gave (mathematics, medicine, even architecture) have been improved as time wears on--we learn what works and what doesn't.  we've changed as we've learned, and the idea ov heaven hasn't (much--i'm not forgetting the fountains and virgins from a few pages back).  that could mean either that it's eternal (though it's been pointed out that the early jews didn't give it a second thought, so that's well out) or that it's an idea that we stopped building on when it stopped making sense, but that some ov us haven't quite let go ov yet--kind ov like dial-up internet.

Stephen said earliër that longstanding ideas give us as good a starting point as any.  if we want to start from the same place as those ideas, sure.  i like to think i'm a little past the bronze age, so ideas that have changed little and benefited noöne since then aren't really my cup ov tea.

which isn't to say that i disbelieve in heaven (though i do find the whole idea extraordinarily unlikely)--i simply don't believe in it.  after all, i can't well run around accepting everything that hasn't been disproven.

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on June 26, 2013, 02:36:32 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 05:51:42 PM
How is it that you know those who had these experiences had malfunctioning brains?  I think that is a personal view is it not?

you seem to've read and quoted my post in the half a minute before i fixed it to avoid exactly this misunderstanding--in your typical near-death experience, one's brain is by definition malfunctioning due to lack ov oxygen, weird chemical levels, and other quirks ov a body on the way out the back door.

besides, most ov us can't take a nap without tripping balls--and we realize that what we see while sleeping isn't objectively real.  why should we consider the things people see at half past coma o'clock any different?

Alrighty then!  Since you have clarified what you intended about near-death experience I agree with much of what you assert but have something to add to the equation that may point to why there is such a divide in the scientific and religious community about what happens when we die. 

It makes perfect sense to point to the chemical changes in a dying brain as impacting how the mind perceives what is happening in and around it in the final stages of life.  Tunnel vision is experienced by folks with traumas who are not dying, so stating one might see a tunnel and light due to the brain struggling from lack of oxygen is completely reasonable and backed by science. Even hallucinations are expected.

I think some of the differences in views about the near-death experience has to do with how it is defined.  Over the ages of human experience there have always been situations where people have been thought dead only to return to life.  They describe a number of experiences similar to what we hear today.  I think defining some experiences as near death is not  accurate in all cases.  We know that with current technology, medical science can measure the activity in the brain.  We also know that people can be clinically dead for an extended period of time.  In some cases the time they are clinically brain dead goes from a few minutes to several hours, when the brain is no longer in the state of dying but now in fact dead. The explanation of a dying brain creating all experiences shared by those near death is one thing. It is however no longer applicable when the person is already dead without "any" brain activity and this confirmed by medical science.  If indeed some believe the brain is what drives consciousness, we are left to try and explain the many documented experiences of people who were able to discuss and describe what was being said and done around them while they were brain dead. Nor can we adequately explain the lengthy and involved experiences many share when revived from death which often include them traveling to visit living family members and friends, describing where those folks were, what they were doing and even what they were wearing when the person sharing the info was at that time clinically brain dead.  We have untold cases of experiences describing a white light that are shared by people who have not died in a hospital or even during daylight so it was not an operating light that they viewed while dying.  The light described envelops them and is not like any they have experienced on earth.

Let me share another personal experience with you.  Twenty years ago my mother died on Christmas day.  She was in a hospital recovering from an illness to soon to be released.  Christmas morning the entire family piled into the car and went to see mom.  When we came to the hospital's front desk, we were told that my mother had died a short time earlier.  We were dumbstruck by this news.  The hospital staff had told us they had called all the family emergency numbers to let us know and not one phone had been answered.  The fact is that we were all together Christmas morning, phones in tow and not one of them rang!  The staff asked if we would like to see her and we said yes.  She had been moved to another room and was lying on a hospital bed, her eyes wide open and looking up.  We all moved to her bedside.  My husband was carrying our youngest son who was just two at the time.  When he approached my mothers side, my son in his arms, my little guy looked over at my mothers face, gasped then smiled and said "Oh look, the light in gamma's eyes is booful"!  We were all blown away.  My little boy of two looked at his dead grandmothers eyes and saw a beautiful light beaming from within her.  For me there is no question of the light of divinity or it's presence around and within us at the moment of death and beyond.   

Quote from: JayBird on June 26, 2013, 11:09:02 AM
First Diane, let me just say thank you for posting this thread because even if I wasn't writing it is still thought-provoking just to read others thoughts.

Thank you for participating in the discussion as well.  You have some compelling things to share.  :) I am sharing my thoughts regarding your comments in blue.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
Indeed, it is your right to approach belief and this world reality in the way that not only makes the most sense to you, but also in a way that gives you comfort.  I have heard the comment about belief in the bible as a safe bet, almost a no harm done sort of position to take in case some part of us survives death.  The flaw I find in the statement is that is stems from fear and that comes from much of what the bible teaches about a wrathful god and afterlife. To me that belief does do harm to many.  It's a default position, a better be safe than sorry stance to protect oneself if indeed the bible were true and descriptions of an after life were accurate you would literally suffer a hell of a mess if you didn't believe in the bible prior to death.  I personally reject this notion based in fear.

True, however I would counter with the fact that I believe everyone is drawn to their belief in the afterlife (if they believe there is one) based on fear of death or of the unknown.  Once they begin to follow a faith and delve deeper into its meanings and gain an understanding, then they may lose that fear and instead take solace in the fact that they believe that is what the next stage will be.

And though it is a "default" position that brought them there, if they believe they believe.  It is my understanding, being raised Roman Catholic, that if you believe and have faith then you are rewarded with the kingdom.  Nothing about how one came to that belief.  I think you touched on that on a recent post that I just read.

Good counter and in many cases folks are drawn to beliefs of an afterlife because they fear death, but not always.  As I stated earlier for some people, including myself there has never been that inner fear of death but was inside an internal knowing that this physical life is temporary and not the entirety of what we are. :)

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 25, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
For believers and non believers in death they will find what they "believed" they would find at the time of their passing. Then they will awake to their own consciousness and what it means at the point they are ready to understand.  Some will experience oblivion until their physically unbound consciousness awakes, others will see Jesus, others will see Buddha, others will see relatives, others will see angels.  Whatever we perceive to be the realities of death will be what we initially experience but not the entirety of what is.  For any belief system that is predicated on consciousness as expressed in a single physical existence one might ask, how would a small child have any concept of what to expect after life?  The answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.  Knowledge is carried forward and eternal, so even a child will have a reference of "experiences" to apply after death as will those who are living this life and still remain "asleep" when it comes to knowing the reality of their unlimited consciousness and divinity.

Along the lines of "What if all the religions of the world were all right?".  I love history and I love learning new things.  I am forever the geek and constantly learning, I take classes online and at FSCJ just for fun and the experience of finding new worlds of knowledge.  However, one area I am highly naive in is theological studies.  My formal training came in a B.S. in Psychology, later a Masters with another Bachelors in Sociology.  I have been told, enough times to at least give it credence, by those whom have studied the Bible, the Koran, the Torah that is really "closely related stories told from a different point of view".  However, I also can see how that same "story" can be used by political or fanatical forces to control a large group of people.  For instance, a king who needs the peasants to keep him comfortable so by pushing this Bible on them gives them hope that even though this is not the life they planned, they'll be rewarded in the next one.

Sacred texts and myth are often intertwined, told and retold over the ages.  Some are altered and changed in order to fit a specific teaching or theology but at the core they are the same story.  This is particularly true of creations stories, Adam and Eve for example are sometimes called the sacred twins in myth.  Another example is Noah's ark and the floods.  There are innumerable similar flood stories throughout history, many told long before Christianity. The belief in a heaven or some type of experience after death is indeed worldwide. It is important to note that many people embrace the current ideas of science and have no difficulty interfacing those beliefs with their spiritual views of what it means to transcend death.

QuoteThe answer is that they (we) are not the product of a single experience but the extension of a consciousness that is not bound by our reality or our form and has existed before and after this world and beyond.

This line is very much in agreement with those who study Buddhism, or whom believe in reincarnation.  Which gives credence to the theory that may be we are all right.  Maybe, just maybe, there is this "place" that we go to and stay.  Like a hotel.  Now to get in there, I need to pay.  I can pay with american money, euros, pesos, or fruits and berries but either way if I pay I will get in.  A rough analogy but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.

It is similar to Buddhism but is actually more closely aligned with the views and understandings of indigenous cultures worldwide that have always understood that humanity is not separate from the world and universe around us but rather a part of all that is.  This is what I was speaking to in the comment above.  This innate form of understanding and connection all things does not always connect with a belief in reincarnation, which is another and very interesting belief.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Interesting post.

The question remains...does your dog have a "purpose"? Elephants? Monkeys? Trees? Air? Bacteria? In the scientific sense, yes, but not in the subjective sense you're looking at. What purpose do we have? Why do we NEED a purpose? If you were to suddenly find out humans have no purpose, what would you do? Kill yourself?

We must have a purpose.  A driving force if you will.  Otherwise, why do you do what you do?  Why get up in the morning? To go to work. Why work? To make money. Why do you need money? To buy food. Why do you need food? To survive. I don't mean purpose as in "Why I am here", I mean it as in everything we do has a purpose.  Every organism known to us has a purpose.  When we lose sight of that purpose, we begin to falter.  Now some can attach to faith and regain their focus by aligning with another (some say greater) purpose, others cannot and this is when they fall into depression. Which can result tragically in death by suicide, drug abuse, or abusing others.  Well, that is getting off track, but I was trying to say if you don't have a purpose than why are you still here? Because yes, when people lose that purpose of getting out of bed and striving for something, that is when they kill themselves.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Moreover, you mention reward...why do we need to be rewarded from just being? Seems foolish. Would you be a bad person if you were to find out there was no reward for living? Would you be "better" if there was a sure reward at the end?

Not foolish at all.  Even science defines our brain as a "reward-based cognitive system".  Everything the human brain is geared to do is based on rewards.  Think about it for a minute.  We work to get paid. We are charitable to feel good.  We eat to satisfy our desire (not hunger, otherwise McDonalds wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is if we just ate to survive). I remember a study in college that was about the rewards system for the human.  For 7 days they tracked every single action from sleep to work to eating to resting or recreation, even breathing and motor responses such as blinking (rewarded with sight) and swallowing (rewarded with breath).  For each they had to list what the reward was.  Everything we do is based on reward, so it is only natural that whatever we perceive to be the afterlife is also reward-based because we can easily comprehend that.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
One of my favorite Twain quotes: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

This exact quote hung in my dorm room for three years and now hangs on a wall in my home.  However, I interpret it to be more a "why worry about tomorrow when today is here and now" type of quote.

Quote from: ben says on June 25, 2013, 08:39:06 PM
Just as your dog dies, and is put in the ground, and his/her consciousness ends, so will yours. I don't know why this makes everyone so uncomfortable.

I don't think this makes anyone here uncomfortable, they wouldn't be participating if it did.  And yes, just like our pets we will one day perish. I think everyone is well aware of that fact.  Whether or not conciousness ends though, well that is the unknown.  Unfortunately, those whom can answer with certainty can no longer communicate with us.  So I guess we will just have to wait and see.



Now, I am not a tinfoil hat wearing, X-Files junkie who listens to Art Bell like it is the gospel.  However, I agree with Jodie Foster's character in Contact, "if there is nothing else out there, that's an awful lot of wasted space".  I have heard tons of theories, everything from we are just a giant snow globe on some lifeforms' desk to we are actually an alien race that crashed on earth millions of years ago.  There are more eccentric stories about aliens and creationism than there are people here most likely. 

I do believe there is some "higher power".  Do I believe it as it is written in the Bible, no I do not.  Humans, though it can be proven with some degree of certainty that we evolved from the amoeba and eventually became homo sapien, are very unique.  There is no other life form on this planet that has that ... consciousness, I guess is the word I am looking for ... that we do.  Theologians will profess that this is proof of a God.  Science says this was the result of need to adapt millions of years ago and we "developed" to what we are today.  Lately, I have read several good books explaining how science actually proves the existence of God.  They have not been powerful enough to make me believe, however they do cause me to stop and think.  I always seek the logical explanation.  When people "die and come back to life" and talk of seeing the bright light, it seems logical that was the operating table lights.  When they speak of transcending this world and being in another, it seems logical that the brain could not understand what happened and that was the easiest way to comprehend it.  Our mind creates "parallel" stories so that we can deal with certain scenarios.  This is evidenced in how "eyewitness" reports vary and how people who suffered great traumatic injury or experiences can cope and move on.

I will say their is something "special" within us.  If anyone here has been/is a nurse or doctor or EMT than you may understand.  In NJ we have volunteer fire and ems and I volunteered on my local rescue squad because it looked great on college applications. It also led to me becoming a combat medic when I enlisted in the Army to pay for that college.  I have had three people "pass on" in front of me. I can remember each incident clearly, and the change in the eyes is most compelling.  Unlike when you go hunting and kill the deer and it dies after you've caught up to it, there is a ... vacancy or exit of some sort that I cannot describe with words.  Based solely on these three experiences, I personally believe there is something beyond this life as we understand it.

And in the end, maybe every one of us is right.  I am really not sure.  All I know is that I am still young and open to any ideas that seem logical.  And until I leave this world as I know it, I will always be curious to learn more and gain a greater or different understanding.

Thanks again Diane and everyone else who is posting here, this is truly an educational experience.  It is a pleasure to be able to read people debating thoughts without being immature or rude and condescending to those with different views.Again, thank you! :)

Quote from: stephendare on June 26, 2013, 06:25:52 PM
So do you think that the concept of Universal Love (Christian) is a Bronze Age idea?
Or how about Sartori?
Or perhaps the Cosmic Wheel of Creation?

Bronze Age ideas and concepts?

But even so, what would you suggest are improvements on these ideas?

And i do mean that sincerely.  Im curious as to your response.

i'm pretty sure the idea ov univeral love predates the bronze age, but i feel the same way about it as i do about the idea ov heaven:  it's changed little and done no real good (to quote Boyd Rice, "the verdict on love is both bad and good--the bad news is that love has turned the world into a sewer--the good news is, people have learned to love the smell of shit").
i'm thoroughly unfamiliar with Sartori and the cosmic wheel, so i've got nothing there.

as far as improvements on old ideas in general, we already have improvements.  the scientific method.  humanitarianism based on true altruism rather than fear.  looking at things objectively (which i admit i'm really not good at at all) rather than through the lens ov books that brook no disagreement.

though i admit i'm getting a bit off track here--these don't really have much to do with whether there is or isn't some sort ov heaven, except that i'm a lot more inclined to rely on the results ov scientific investigation than the claims ov a book written before there was anything we could meaningfully call science.

Kuro,

With science as a measure for what is "real", what are your thoughts about the scientific declaration founded in physics that there are at least 11 other dimensions beyond our "reality" as well as a parallel universe? 

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 27, 2013, 02:26:23 PM
Kuro,

With science as a measure for what is "real", what are your thoughts about the scientific declaration founded in physics that there are at least 11 other dimensions beyond our "reality" as well as a parallel universe?

i don't know much about it, but i think it's meaningless until/unless we find a way to get to them.  if your implication here is that some ov that could be heaven, i really don't think that's likely.  mostly because the idea that a dimension or a universe would be set aside for human happiness after death is extraordinarily anthropocentric, and i tend to distrust anything that says or implies that the universe thinks we're special.

this discussion is bringing home to me that a lot ov my distrust ov religion and spirituality is rooted in my conviction that we're nothing special.

edited for clarity.  and you should've seen those run-on sentences!

^ Just for clarification, you only find meaning in the existence of other dimensions if we can visit them or are you saying you don't believe they exist?  If you do the research you will see that some in science hold that it would likely be "impossible" to visit these other dimensions due to a variety of reasons from tears in dimensional fabric to outright explosive destruction of two unlike dimensions trying to come together.

Trying to figure out the comment you made about distrusting anything that says or implies that the universe thinks we are special.  I cannot remember any statements to that effect in the thread. :)

Please help me understand your view that science is a valid measure of all that is and how you then reconcile that with scientific declaration of other dimensions of reality or a parallel universe being meaningless?

i think (believe would be the wrong word) other dimensions exist, but i don't think their existence is meaningful to us in any way.

the idea ov heaven carries with it the idea that we're special--either that or there's an afterlife for every single thing that's ever lived, which i don't think i've ever heard anyöne suggest.

i think that the methods ov science (i got tired ov saying 'the scientific method' over and over again) are valid--but if we find out something that we can't do anything with and that has no effect on us, i can't help but consider that meaningless.

Just because you do not see any value in a discovery that seems out of your reach does not mean it is meaningless.  If the existence of these other dimensions or universes are what keeps this one intact I think you might find their existence to have "great meaning"!  :)  The fact is that some in science think this may be exactly what is going on, however scientific method is still not sophisticated enough to explain everything, including the existence of a heaven or what form a heaven might take. 

To your earlier statement about religion being problematic for you because it seems to say human beings are special, I can only conclude that you are making this statement based upon what you believe are "all" the views of religions worldwide.  Let me assure you that not all religions teach that human beings are special as in superior to other forms of life or conscience.  In fact there are religious disciplines that suggest the existence of humanity is insignificant as compared to all that exists in this world and beyond. 

Are you saying that human life has no greater importance than other living things on earth or that it is not special because in your view we are nothing more than a collection of stardust that just simply evolved like all living things on earth?  If so, are you also concluding that the ability of humans to think abstract thoughts is something shared by all living things or by human beings alone?  If the ability is indeed exclusive to human minds then I think most would consider that special. :)

How do you come to the conclusion that belief in a heaven or existence beyond what is physical points to humans being special?

The reasoning that something might exist because an old book says it does, and you really, really hope it does, does not in itself mean it actually exists.

There is, aside from antidotal stories, no scientific proof of heaven. Despite this, science doesn't deny the possible existence of heaven.

Conversely, science has some proof of evolution, the big bag theory, and many, many other things (Including an old earth), and because science so far is unable to prove them 100%, religious zelots scream heresy.

So with that in mind, I do not believe in heaven because quite simply, there is no proof.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 27, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
Just because you do not see any value in a discovery that seems out of your reach does not mean it is meaningless.  If the existence of these other dimensions or universes are what keeps this one intact I think you might find their existence to have "great meaning"!  :)  The fact is that some in science think this may be exactly what is going on, however scientific method is still not sophisticated enough to explain everything, including the existence of a heaven or what form a heaven might take.

if they keep this one intact, then sure, it matters a lot!  as far as i'd heard, other dimensions had no effect on this one.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 27, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
To your earlier statement about religion being problematic for you because it seems to say human beings are special, I can only conclude that you are making this statement based upon what you believe are "all" the views of religions worldwide.  Let me assure you that not all religions teach that human beings are special as in superior to other forms of life or conscience.  In fact there are religious disciplines that suggest the existence of humanity is insignificant as compared to all that exists in this world and beyond.

you have a very valid point there.  i badly overgeneralized based on the religions that i've had more direct contact with, even though i know that there are many that specifically tell us we're not special.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 27, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
Are you saying that human life has no greater importance than other living things on earth or that it is not special because in your view we are nothing more than a collection of stardust that just simply evolved like all living things on earth?  If so, are you also concluding that the ability of humans to think abstract thoughts is something shared by all living things or by human beings alone?  If the ability is indeed exclusive to human minds then I think most would consider that special. :)

i don't believe that any human is objectively more important than, say, any cow cat or kangaroo--after all, what criteria shall we use?  and yes, that's largely rooted in evolution.   i don't think we were specifically created, so ov course i don't think we were created special.  as far as the ability to think abstract thoughts goes, how do we know we're the only ones?  i think a human is a very poor judge ov what an elephant thinks.  also, for what it's worth, last year this happened:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 27, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
How do you come to the conclusion that belief in a heaven or existence beyond what is physical points to humans being special?

i suppose it doesn't have to--that's sort ov an artifact ov the context in which heaven or any sort ov afterlife has always been presented to me--and that seems fairly consistent with the reports in the article that launched this discussion; other than dogs, i don't recall any animals beïng mentioned.

QuoteAre you saying that human life has no greater importance than other living things on earth or that it is not special because in your view we are nothing more than a collection of stardust that just simply evolved like all living things on earth?  If so, are you also concluding that the ability of humans to think abstract thoughts is something shared by all living things or by human beings alone?  If the ability is indeed exclusive to human minds then I think most would consider that special. :)

KuroiKetsunoHana quote: i don't believe that any human is objectively more important than, say, any cow cat or kangaroo--after all, what criteria shall we use?  and yes, that's largely rooted in evolution.   i don't think we were specifically created, so ov course i don't think we were created special.  as far as the ability to think abstract thoughts goes, how do we know we're the only ones?  i think a human is a very poor judge ov what an elephant thinks.  also, for what it's worth, last year this happened:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness

Really good response and backed up by some religious disciplines.  Some disciplines in fact see all life with equal importance. Some have this view because they see the "sacred" in everything.  Others believe that that spirit conscious that can be found in humans is at some point expressed through all living things from a bug to a human being and this takes place through a series on incarnations.

I have always felt as you do that human beings are not really able to know the level of reasoning and critical thinking in any other life form objectively because the criterion used to measure is generally based upon what consciousness and abstract thinking is in humans.  :)

Quote from: Demosthenes on June 27, 2013, 04:05:01 PM
The reasoning that something might exist because an old book says it does, and you really, really hope it does, does not in itself mean it actually exists.

There is, aside from antidotal stories, no scientific proof of heaven. Despite this, science doesn't deny the possible existence of heaven.

Conversely, science has some proof of evolution, the big bag theory, and many, many other things (Including an old earth), and because science so far is unable to prove them 100%, religious zelots scream heresy.

So with that in mind, I do not believe in heaven because quite simply, there is no proof.

Let me ask you this if I may Demo.  When you say there is no proof of heaven do mean as a physical entity or place?  For instance some individuals actually feel that heaven can be a state of mind or inner peace.  For the purpose of discussion, is it your belief that heaven as the place of streets of gold and harps residing in the clouds is the heaven by which we are measuring this discourse?  Or is it your position that no experience or dimension exists that many would consider to be heavenly?  :)

Well, if heaven exists in someones mind as an idea, then heaven dies when the mind does. This is very much not what is taught in sunday schools all over the world.

Now, if you want to speak to a dimensional existence, like there being an infinite number of co-existing universes (aka multiverse), as opposed to some sort of magical ethereal plane that you get to go to if you believe in the right man-made deity, then we are cooking with oil and can have a larger discussion.

If you are talking clouds, harps, and a big ass gate with a gate keeper... sorry. No dice.

The primary difference is, the possibility of multiple dimensions existing could happen outside of the comprehension or knowledge of man, and would be a universal constant.

I beleive that the idea of God and religion is a man made construct in an effort to help us cope as we comprehend our finite existence. However, just because we give greater meaning to our existence, does not necessarily give our existence greater meaning.

There are no assumptions. There are talking points about things I personally find interesting, and moderately more plausible than omnipotent beings sitting in utopia allowing only card carrying members, and there is a general sense dismissal of this, but no assumptions at all.

Cheshire asked about "heaven being a state of mind". So, in the physical sense, if (notice the use of the word "if", in this case making the comment a suggestion, not an assumption) you subscribe to the belief that consciousness is simply a chemical reaction that causes a series of synapses in the brain giving life to the conscious mind, then it stands to reason that when the brain dies, the conscious mind dies with it, along with anything in it. Thus, if Heaven is simply a state of mind, as Cheshire suggested, then when the brain dies, heaven dies. The idea of heaven would still exist with other people, but for that person, heaven would have died along with the brain.

I can see how someone who believes that the conscious mind transcends the mortal coil might take acception to this notion.

Just to clarify, I did not suggest that heaven exists in the mind.  I simply was trying to determine what criterion you may be using when you speak to the issue of whether or not heaven is real or imagined.  :)

Stephen had asked earlier what people who believed in heaven thought it might be.  Most folks who have been in discussion on this thread didn't reply so that is what I thought could use clarification in this discussion.  I think in your comments we can see that part of this discussion revolves around the state of human conscience, how the human brain functions and what constitutes the mind.  Are you of the belief that human conscience is confined to and created by the functions of the brain?

I think we can also determine that the pearly gates and roads of gold in the clouds is absolute fantasy in the context of this discussion.  For the record, I do not hold to the idea of such a heaven but understand that it may exist for some at more than one level. 

With regard to other dimensions and alternate universes my view is that if they exist and can be recognized as a reality in the face of a science that is not perfect, could there not be a dimension that would indeed be considered a type of heaven?  :)

This thread continuously gets better, it is developing as we go.  Def one of the best is followed in a long time.

One thing I always try to keep in mind when discussing the bible with someone (usually under the pretext of them trying right error of my thinking) is that at the root it is a book of analogies.  Stories written in such a way as to convey a message to the masses.  Obviously if one tried to explain how you would transcend to another plane you would lose a high majority of the audience before they even heard what you'r trying to explain.  But everyone understands walking through a gate.  And why shouldn't we say the streets have gold and harps, that is a nice comforting feeling for someone seeking solace. 

First let me point out that some phrases in the Bible regarding heaven are applied to real world scenarios in our past.  For example, the famous Italian quote that says "I came to America because they told the streets were paved with gold.  When I got here, I learned three things. 1. The streets were not paved in gold.  2. The streets were not paved at all.  3. They expected me to pave them." I think the biggest debates about heaven, maybe faith in general is the interpretation of what is meant literally and what is there figuratively so as to deepen ones understanding. Sort of like learning math as a kid, no one ever buys 248 watermelons and 326 tomatoes ... But saying it in thy context helps us to visualize the problem.

Someone today posted about how there was no proof of heaven, and that may be true.  But there is proof of the Bible, which could be a description of heaven.  Even though I do not believe in the entirety of it, science has proven certain events such as a great flood which gives credence to the stories at least being based off of reality.

As for a few othe things mentioned, the dimension talk immediately brought to mind the "string theory" and the existence of the "m" or 13th dimension string, so the science is there.  Still developing, much like this thread.

And of course, the "God Gene" which I am kind of surprised has not been brought up yet.  Approaching this from science, because as I said in an earlier post I apply logic to everything to see if its true, then one cannot validate a transcendent plane of "heaven" without also validating some higher power.  And if it is all just chemical reactions and electrical pulses, what sparks it?  What ends it?  How is it that sometimes the human body just fails to keep working resulting in death when no logical reason for that death can be found?

Well I'm getting way off track now, but I included a quick link to wiki on god gene below.

And on a final note, I would not be quick to say that humans are equal to any other life here.  We may not be superior, however even science has proven we are more "capable to adapt" than others.  Some have even gone as far to say that humans possess "spirituality" that no other life form does.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene)

Quote from: stephendare on June 27, 2013, 05:34:48 PM

QuoteWell, if heaven exists in someones mind as an idea, then heaven dies when the mind does

hmm.  then perhaps you would like to document these claims.

Does an idea die?  Does the mind die?

Does something associated with the 'mind' die?

Boy.... I’ve been away ..... jailed for my opinions about religion.  I must read the posts and catch up.  But I do see something I’d like to comment on ... from Demosthenes and Stephen.



Can “heaven” exist in the mind as an idea?  Of course “anything” can exist in the mind as an idea.  Therefore, heaven can exist in the mind as an idea.  Can pleasure or inner peace be affected by one’s having the idea of heaven within their minds?  Surely.  And that is one reason why “heaven” exists as an idea in so many minds.


If the idea of heaven exists within the mind of an individual, giving comfort, hope, and balance to that individual, then the idea is cultivated and reinforced over the years, often during one’s association with religious groups or churches. 


But in my opinion, an idea exists, but does not live, and therefore it cannot die.  The idea which exists, can disappear however, but only if there are no humans who can understand and communicate it.   


As to the question.... Does the mind die? .... Although many wish or hope for the mind to continue after death, as the mind is the essence and center of the individual, there is absolutely no evidence that the mind survives the death of the brain which harbored it.  The brain dies, and because the mind is a function of, and depends upon, the living physiology of the brain, the mind disappears, in spite of our wish that it continue somehow, perhaps in some other dimension, or in a heaven.   


Depending on one’s interpretation of “Does something associated with the mind die?.... Well....of course the body was associated with the mind while the individual was living.  And of course the body will eventually die.


But “ideas” are also associated with the living individual via the brain/mind partnership.  But, as suggested above, ideas do not live, but only exist, and therefore they cannot die ...... they can only disappear.


I will review what has been posted since my absence.

Lots of good ideas....  and civil too.  We must do something about that..... where is Stephen?


Diane .... the two occasions wherein you perceived something otherworldly was going on were interesting.  I wonder how many of us on the forum have had similar occasions?  These “events” seem to increase the probability of there actually being something supernatural out there.


I’ve actually had three “events”, each causing me to wonder .... to creep toward doubting my otherwise firm position of zero belief in anything supernatural.  But my realization that these events were in my mind, along with my understanding that the mind can play little tricks upon one’s consciousness, allows me to just “wonder”.   


I might mention that each of the these “events” occurred while I was in a relaxed state ......just before entering sleep..... where one’s mind is halfway between sleep and awake.


Two of these events were related to the idea of a god and to the idea of belief in a god.... as if a message was being conveyed to me.  The other was related to my deceased mother, who had passed several years earlier.


I have always wondered about these mysterious encounters with what appeared to be some entity.  Whereas two of the encounters came upon me without warning, one was somewhat of an invite from me...... asking for a “sign” .... so that I might believe..... so that I might finally “know” about this spiritual, religious thing.


I suspect that most people are like me in that we seek or desire something otherworldly or higher than we are.  We long for something bigger.... something that would give us more than this life. 


The spiritual .... the feeling of wonder.... the wish to open one’s life to something larger.... something more..  something eternal....  sleeps within us..... and by searching and being open to opportunity, we occasionally find a door through which we seem to catch a glimpse of it.  I too, long for the spiritual .... the otherworldly..... the eternal.


Those of us who are thought of as evil atheists, who seem unable to engage the traditional western forms of religious teachings, find ourselves, by way of our need for it, and by way of our concern for others ... for all of earths creatures, experiencing a spirituality in ways similar to that of the traditional religious individual.

Just one correction about the events I shared Ron.  There are some experiences in life that need not be analyzed but rather simply felt deep within oneself and recognized, not perceived as truth.  ;)

Perhaps the need to intellectualize everything is the very mechanism that makes it impossible to recognize the purity of what one has experienced as nothing more than a divine knowing.  There is a difference between subjective experience and pure insight as there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Could it be that you have yet to experience the difference?

Do you care to share the details of the "experiences" you mentioned that did give you cause to wonder?  I would be interested to hear them.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 28, 2013, 12:01:55 PM
Just one correction about the events I shared Ron.  There are some experiences in life that need not be analyzed but rather simple felt deep within oneself and recognized as truth.  ;)

Perhaps the need to intellectualize everything is the very mechanism that makes it impossible to recognize the purity of what one has experienced as nothing more than a divine knowing.  There is a difference between subjective experience and pure insight as there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Could it be that you have yet to experience the difference?

This brings up a great question. If you knew for a fact that there was no heaven, and thus by extention, no hell, would you behave differently?

Would knowledge of no heaven make you live your life more completely, and enjoy it more, or would it kill your drive and give people a sense of "why bother"?

For me personally, it has no impact on my drive. I want to enjoy life, and I want my kids to enjoy life regardless of what, if anything, comes next?

For me it would make no difference Demo.  I can recognize though that the promise of a heaven or threat of a hell can be used to manipulate the actions of some individuals.  Of course there are plenty of church goers in jails around the world charged with horrible crimes against others, so I am not so sure the option of heaven or hell really impacts the base action of humanity in most cases.

Upon reviewing this thread about gods, heaven, and the supernatural, I discovered where Chesire Cat (Diane), post #84, had invited me to convey some detail of my three encounters with what seemed to be, or could have been, something supernatural; that is, outside of my ability to understand the physical causes of certain phenomena.

In spite of my being an atheist (evil person), I am always open to any events which might move me from the position of atheism.  In fact, I’ve sought with intention, and even requested, as if in prayer to any entity who might hear me, any “sign” of there being something supernatural which might actually exist.

So, the following is an account of what happened late in the year 2001, while I was living in a small apartment above my workshop, waiting for my house to be completed. 

The event occurred after I had gone to bed in the late evening, and while I was in that state wherein I was awake, but relaxed and before  slipping into the sleep state. 

Something during the day, perhaps a television program about near death experiences ... tunnels etc...  had made me curious as to the existence of a god and the supernatural, so I found myself, while in bed relaxing, asking any entity which might be about me, or anywhere in the universe who could possibly hear my thoughts, to give me a “sign” - anything to allow me to believe, as others seem to have been able to do, in some kind of supernatural being, a god, or  any entity of power greater than we humans.  I thought twice, perhaps three times, “Give me a sign”. 

No drugs.... no alcohol mind you .... only a wish to know... and perhaps a longing for something more than just me and the physical world around me.

In any case, a few seconds after my last request for a sign, I distinctly remember an odd feeling of calm, but also, within my mind, began to emerge a vision of a tunnel, a long tunnel, fuzzy or wavy about the perimeter, with a dull light at the end of it.  I felt myself going toward the light, down the tunnel, and although I felt a slight apprehension, I did not initially feel fear, as I somehow sensed that the entity, if there was one, would do no harm to me.  It seems to me that once one is faced with a powerful entity, logic and common sense informs that the entity has no motive to harm.  And too, there is nothing one can do in the presence of an all-powerful entity. 

To continue... I allowed myself to slip further into the tunnel, but as I journeyed, I became somewhat concerned, and as result of an uncomfortable feeling, withdrew my will to continue.  I returned to my normal waking state, and thought about this interesting journey, and as I relaxed further, regretted somewhat my abortion of it.

It was interesting that while I was allowing myself to drift down the tunnel, I sensed that I could continue to the end of it if that had been my desire.  My hesitation to continue down the tunnel was a consequence of my not knowing what I would have encountered at the end of it.  I had a slight awareness of the possibility that my life would have ended if I had continued.  Although I sensed that the ending of my life would have been okay, I felt that I was not ready for it to end. If felt that the entity, whatever it was, was a good entity, and therefore, had good intentions for me.

Of course, this mental event could have existed entirely, and only, within my mind, and could have been generated from the pressures of  persistent questions about the supernatural which had haunted me for years.

Whereas this event was initiated  by me, the other two came upon me out of the blue so to speak.  But I will continue with these at a later time.   

This kind of experience causes me to always question the nature of it, the validity of it, and whether it was entirely in my mind, or perhaps was an engagement with something outside of my mind.     

   

The mind is a beautiful thing...simply because we have awe in a thing or thought does not make it heavenly or of god...heaven was simply a coping tool of existence...

I agree that the idea of heaven was probably invented by man, and doesn't have to exist in the scheme of things.  Actually my thoughts regarding the event I described, was to wonder not so much about a "heaven", but to wonder whether or not there was any communication between me and something outside of myself. 

But of course, if there was actually some kind of communication between me and some supernatural entity, then we might assume a reasonable probability that it involved some kind of a god-like entity..... which doesn't necessarily include a heaven.   

This big question I've had however is whether the event I've described was all within my mind, or actually some kind of engagement with an entity outside of my mind.

So far, the weight falls on the probability that my tunnel event was all within my mind.  Oh well, maybe later I can engage a supernatural entity.     

Quote from: Garden guy on July 07, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
The mind is a beautiful thing...simply because we have awe in a thing or thought does not make it heavenly or of god...heaven was simply a coping tool of existence...

I think heaven or the thought of heaven may indeed help many people to cope in their lives, but the idea or view that there is a heaven doesn't always have to do with simply coping with life.  Is it your view that when our physical life is over that we simply cease to exist?

I have found in many discussions over the years that a good number of people who don't believe in a God or a hereafter base those beliefs on what science and evolution tells them.  Others feelings about God are based upon what they see as the tremendous pain's and unjust challenges we experience on earth as proof that there is no God, because what God could allow people to suffer so?  For me the science can and does marry up to the spiritual side of things and one does not threaten the other.

If your view is born of science and evolution I wonder what reason you think there is for the human mind to be able to experience awe?  What evolutionary purpose would that serve?

Not challenging your views just wanting to make sure I understand your thoughts and statements.  :)

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 07, 2013, 11:38:25 AM
Upon reviewing this thread about gods, heaven, and the supernatural, I discovered where Chesire Cat (Diane), post #84, had invited me to convey some detail of my three encounters with what seemed to be, or could have been, something supernatural; that is, outside of my ability to understand the physical causes of certain phenomena.

In spite of my being an atheist (evil person), I am always open to any events which might move me from the position of atheism.  In fact, I’ve sought with intention, and even requested, as if in prayer to any entity who might hear me, any “sign” of there being something supernatural which might actually exist.

So, the following is an account of what happened late in the year 2001, while I was living in a small apartment above my workshop, waiting for my house to be completed. 

The event occurred after I had gone to bed in the late evening, and while I was in that state wherein I was awake, but relaxed and before  slipping into the sleep state. 

Something during the day, perhaps a television program about near death experiences ... tunnels etc...  had made me curious as to the existence of a god and the supernatural, so I found myself, while in bed relaxing, asking any entity which might be about me, or anywhere in the universe who could possibly hear my thoughts, to give me a “sign” - anything to allow me to believe, as others seem to have been able to do, in some kind of supernatural being, a god, or  any entity of power greater than we humans.  I thought twice, perhaps three times, “Give me a sign”. 

No drugs.... no alcohol mind you .... only a wish to know... and perhaps a longing for something more than just me and the physical world around me.

In any case, a few seconds after my last request for a sign, I distinctly remember an odd feeling of calm, but also, within my mind, began to emerge a vision of a tunnel, a long tunnel, fuzzy or wavy about the perimeter, with a dull light at the end of it.  I felt myself going toward the light, down the tunnel, and although I felt a slight apprehension, I did not initially feel fear, as I somehow sensed that the entity, if there was one, would do no harm to me.  It seems to me that once one is faced with a powerful entity, logic and common sense informs that the entity has no motive to harm.  And too, there is nothing one can do in the presence of an all-powerful entity. 

To continue... I allowed myself to slip further into the tunnel, but as I journeyed, I became somewhat concerned, and as result of an uncomfortable feeling, withdrew my will to continue.  I returned to my normal waking state, and thought about this interesting journey, and as I relaxed further, regretted somewhat my abortion of it.

It was interesting that while I was allowing myself to drift down the tunnel, I sensed that I could continue to the end of it if that had been my desire.  My hesitation to continue down the tunnel was a consequence of my not knowing what I would have encountered at the end of it.  I had a slight awareness of the possibility that my life would have ended if I had continued.  Although I sensed that the ending of my life would have been okay, I felt that I was not ready for it to end. If felt that the entity, whatever it was, was a good entity, and therefore, had good intentions for me.

Of course, this mental event could have existed entirely, and only, within my mind, and could have been generated from the pressures of  persistent questions about the supernatural which had haunted me for years.

Whereas this event was initiated  by me, the other two came upon me out of the blue so to speak.  But I will continue with these at a later time.   

This kind of experience causes me to always question the nature of it, the validity of it, and whether it was entirely in my mind, or perhaps was an engagement with something outside of my mind.     

   

First let me say I certainly don't think people whose beliefs are different than my own are "evil" and this includes atheists.  Since you have referred to yourself in this fashion more than once I can only conclude that you are perhaps creating an "outsider" personality for yourself. When one considers the broad beliefs embraced around the world, there really is no mainstream version of spirituality or even the lack thereof.  Different beliefs do not equate to an evil nature, so you can leave that idea alone.  lol

I find the experience you shared interesting as well as your thoughts about why it happened to you and what it may mean.  What you described is pretty much a classic example of what many people have recited as what they experienced when near death or after being clinically dead and then revived.  It is interesting to me at least, that the experience came as a direct result of a request by you to a higher consciousness to "send you a sign" about God and experience beyond physical life.  You well know that science has often said that the tunnel effect and bright light as well as the calm is simply the result of a dying brain.  The question in your case then becomes why did you have the experience when you were clearly not dying, but simply relaxing?  It is interesting to note that you had the feeling that if you headed fully into the light at the end of the tunnel that you would die.  You also shared that you felt the presence of an "entity" that you knew was peaceful and loving in nature.

The state of relaxation you were in was likely the state of "alpha" which is a place between waking and deep sleep.  Alpha is also the state that many hope to reach during meditation.  It is a mental space where the mind is quieter.  Spiritual avatars and old way teachers know that in order to really hear what the universe is saying, you must first quiet the mind. 

Now you are faced with trying to understand what you experienced.  Was it of imagination or was it really an answer to your query from a divine or higher entity?  I think in order to get the answer you seek however, you have to decide what you "know" inside.  Not what your mind tells you, not what you can rationalize but simply what you "know" inside.  What you intuit.  You can of course rationalize what happened to you but if you do so you may also "dismiss" an experience given to you as a "sign" of truth which is exactly what you asked for.  It all comes down to what the core of your being tells you about what happened.  The knowing you are looking for will not be found in your intellect or your mind.  I think this is why many fail to see or experience what is beyond the physical because they are only looking to the material for the answers they seek.

Let me put it to you this way.  What good would it do me to order a book of wisdom if I cannot read?  I may be able to look at pictures if there are any in the book but I could then only surmise their meaning.  The full text of the book would be lost to me.  The earth we live upon and all the beings that share it with us and our universe are the "book" of truth.  Perhaps those who don't understand what is beyond the conscious mind have not yet learned how to read the pages upon which our existence is written, which is our world, our universe and all that surrounds us, including other dimensions. :)