Metro Jacksonville

2nd and liberty coming down right now

(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/east2ndbefore.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/east2ndbefore.jpg.html)

253 East 2nd Street

Thats a shame. I guess they tasted the blood from 129 E 2nd and now their off to the races.

Demolition by  neglect??? the one house at 2nd and Liberty has sat vacant for over a decade if I remember correctly.

The green one on the corner?  That thing had an awesome 2nd floor balcony. 

Guess I will get to see this on my way home today. wonderful.

I guess Ms. Scott is showing she is not someone to be messed with. 

If the house is danger of collapsing I can understand an emergency demolition but the pictures on Google Maps show that the problem areas have been shored up.  What made demolishing this house an emergency?

As the laws read and as the precedent has been set by how she got away with it with the 2nd st house (just a couple of blocks down the road from this one) and the Office of General counsel there to protect her, all Ms Scott needs to take any house as an emergency is her own say so.  She has the power to say your house needs to go as an emergency and probably get away with it. 

I do not think she is showing us she is not to be messed with, she is truly showing us that she is someone who needs to go.  A five year old bully strutting her stuff and seeking revenge is not someone who should be running an important city department. A five year old bully should not be someone dealing with the lives and properties of others . 

We, the public, need to show her that we are not to be messed with.

It wasn't an emergency, nor was it in danger of collapse.  It was a school yard bully, I can do what I want and you can't stop me, slap in the face from MCCD to local preservationists who are fighting to save our history, since apparently our City has contempt instead of respect for its history.

MCCD will doubtless tell you it was a matter of public safety, but I wouldn't believe it for a second. 

I took pictures, as I saw them start on my way home from an errand downtown about 1:30.  The entire inside was structurally sound.  The studs look new.  The piers look new.  The house was not sagging.  The porch was failing in places, but they could have removed just that part.  That's what they used to do. 

And yes, the owner should have fixed the porch. No argument. But the City has the ability to do repairs with their funds instead of demo.  In fact, it's the law they preserve historic homes.  MCCD refuses to follow the law that says they are to preserve our historic homes.

Quote from: carpnter on June 21, 2013, 04:29:23 PM
I guess Ms. Scott is showing she is not someone to be messed with. 

If the house is danger of collapsing I can understand an emergency demolition but the pictures on Google Maps show that the problem areas have been shored up.  What made demolishing this house an emergency?

You can bet the sentiments of Scott will be a factor in much of what happens regarding how rapidly we see tear downs in Springfield.  Someone needs to get in front of these orders as they are issued.  It will likely take a person physically going to the department Scott overseas and asking to see the current listing of any demo orders upcoming for at least a month out.  They should also ask to see any requests for demo's being pushed as emergencies.  They cannot deny any citizen the right to access and view the job orders and instructions for demo that Kim Scott or her employees request.  I would also let the Council know about this new emergency tear down and send a copy to Cheryl Brown.  Not only would I email Kimberly Daniels, I would call her too.  Not because I think she is a heartfelt preservationist, but because I know there is a contest of egos going on.  Note, a member of council like Daniels can "instruct" Scott to send any and all requests for demo's emergency or otherwise for any given period of time.  Keep in mind that Scott does not have to approve the release of these documents, it is the right of citizens to view them under the Sunshine Law and you can make the request of anyone in that department.

Kim Pryor and Gloria DeVall came when I saw what was happening and called them.  Kim called Kimberly Daniels before she even got there, but her office said she wasn't there.  I snapped a few pictures and took some video, but could only stay a few minutes because I was on my lunch hour.  So sad.

Wow. Is there anyway to stop these demo's through a court proceeding? I'll chip in $50 towards a filing fee.
Kudos to all of you that keep on top of these things.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-qP7ksmW/0/M/photo-M.jpg)

Quote from: Lunican on June 21, 2013, 05:58:30 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-qP7ksmW/0/M/photo-M.jpg)

Is the the same house that Gloria was talking about or another one?

(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/2ndandliberty.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/2ndandliberty.jpg.html)

emergency, my ass

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 21, 2013, 06:07:04 PM

Quote from: Lunican on June 21, 2013, 05:58:30 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-qP7ksmW/0/M/photo-M.jpg)

Is the the same house that Gloria was talking about or another one?

the same

^ Really sad!

two emergency demolitions on east 2nd street within 30 days -- blocks away from one another. 

One done on May 23rd was 129 East 2nd Street (built 1906)

One done on June 21 was 253 East 2nd Street (built 1902)

Gloria, have you been able to determine if a company is being hired by the City to do these demo's or is this city equipment and employees?

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 21, 2013, 06:29:17 PM
Gloria, have you been able to determine if a company is being hired by the City to do these demo's or is this city equipment and employees?

Same demo contractor for the two emergencies on east 2nd and for the controversial garage demolition.

It is a privately owned company.

Do you have the company name?  I want to check into something.

Demo contractor:  Michael Lloyd, hauling and demolition, 
                             USDOT # 1440472

Grady Lloyd
P & G Landclearing, Inc.
License number DEM 9

Thanks Gloria. 

Gloria or others interested in these rapid demolitions and the actions of Kim Scott.  Has anyone checked into the amount of demo contracts that have been given to this contractor, what the costs for the demo was and by what criterion a particular contractor is chosen?  Is the selection of contractor made through "purchasing" or at the behest of Kim Scott? Is each potential demo advertised in order to allow others to bid on the work?

And I literally BEGGED the City to let me salvage the columns and he told me they would not put them in the dumpster and he'd call me Monday morning and could probably have them.  The demo contractor went out of his way to put the columns in the dumpster.

OMG I didn't even notice that at the very end of the video that the demo contractor did a fist pump BOOYA type motion in celebration.  Really??? 

Quote from: JaxUnicorn on June 21, 2013, 08:36:24 PM
And I literally BEGGED the City to let me salvage the columns and he told me they would not put them in the dumpster and he'd call me Monday morning and could probably have them.  The demo contractor went out of his way to put the columns in the dumpster.

I interpreted that as "cha-ching"...which is even more disgusting.

What the HELL?!?! I pass by this house every morning! Didn't look in danger of collapse to me (and I AM an engineer), just another house in need of care and a candidate for restoration.

Two houses now, in the same area, in a short period of time? Questionable motives, methinks. This. Has. To. STOP.

Who do we call to complain about this? This is a completely unacceptable way for a city to behave. Also, please remind me who to be voting against in the next election.

i'm so disgusted by this. has anyone been able to get an answer as to how the city is funding these demolitions? are hud nsp or cdbg funds being used or is the city using general funds?

They will say "general funds" but I'm sure federal money is going into the general fund.

Why is SPAR staying so quiet about all the demos going on?

Quote from: jaxequality on June 22, 2013, 10:24:59 AM
Why is SPAR staying so quiet about all the demos going on?

They're normally the ones behind it.

^^ If they aren't going to do what their mission statement claims, isn't a lawsuit or some kind of official complaint in order? Wells Fargo gives them something like $10,000 a year and has a Historical center set up for Christ's sake. Do they realize they are lending their name to an organization that conducts itself like this?

A complaint or complaints can always be made but in order to know where to lodge that complaint you really have to investigate and understand whatever process is being used to condemn these properties and then have "proof" that the legal process is being circumvented and abused which is why I asked the questions earlier in this thread about how the demo's are paid for, who authorizes them, the criterion used (should it be challenged and changed) etc. Someone seriously needs to go and view the records at city hall in Scott's department to see if every step of the process to demo including recent emergencies has been followed and that the process is not being abused.  That of course is what happened in the situation where Kimberly Daniels called a meeting to discuss a recent demo.  You have to show a pattern of action that is "improper".  You need to find out how the demo contracts are awarded, how the pending demo of a house is advertised and is that being done in a timely manner and most importantly whether or not "emergency" demo is in fact needed. You need to understand who is awarding the contracts for demo.  Are they legally bid out?  What is the proper criterion to award these demo jobs to private contractors?  Clearly, homes are being taken down that are not at danger of immediate collapse and proving that via statements of contractors, engineers and others with expertise can be used to mount a challenge to this destruction.  Remember, for some of those in power like Scott, discussion of historic value means nothing because she frankly doesn't care about that.  You must show that rules and regulations are being abused and that the criterion for demolition needs to be altered as well as the process.  I frankly think we are currently seeing the result of someone, in this case Kimberly Scott, who has an exaggerated sense of their own power taking an in-your-face attitude with the citizens and taxpayers of Jacksonville.  She needs to be reminded that she is an employee of the citizens and taxpayers and to do that you need to find where the abuses in the department are taking place. It is also worth looking into what if any connections the contractors have to Scott herself.  It has been my past experience that this can also impact the type of actions officials take.

^^^Agreed. I still want to know if SPAR has picked up the phone or formally notified Kimberly Scott as to their thoughts?

Perhaps you should just ask them.  ;)

Quote from: jaxequality on June 22, 2013, 12:37:08 PM
^^^Agreed. I still want to know if SPAR has picked up the phone or formally notified Kimberly Scott as to their thoughts?

I've not seen anything about it if they have....

Quote from: jaxequality on June 22, 2013, 10:24:59 AM
Why is SPAR staying so quiet about all the demos going on?

Follow the money

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 22, 2013, 12:40:52 PM
Perhaps you should just ask them.  ;)

Bill Hoff has yet to respond. I just find it comical that when SPAR is opposed to the renaming of a street the dogs are called out, but when houses and structures are being torn down there isn't one peep.

I really just want to know who to call to yell at. I don't particularly care about the legalities or decisionmaking or meetings/lack thereof. That it happened is complaint enough. Is it Kimberly Scott? I really don't care what she thinks, she needs to hear what *I* think as a citizen/taxpayer/voter. If she really thinks she can just steamroll citizens with her personality/power then it's up to citizens to prove her wrong.

City council. All of them. Voice your concerns. Include the mayor

True Gloria, but if you have documentation, video and proof that proper procedure was circumvented or ignored, the council will listen more readily. The mayor however I do not think will care one bit about this issue. It's not high profile and not flashy enough.

One thing that needs to be remembered is that even things like demolitions are money generators and as such a small industry has risen up in Jacksonville surrounding them, which is why investigation is needed.  You can only slow down a Kim Scott and her willing minions with facts and documentation that point to wrongdoing or abuse of authority.  I know from long experience that this is the case.   Abuse of authority needs to get a serious look here.

No excuses.  Cut and paste the addresses.  Type.  Send.  Speak your passion for preservation.  Get to it!

CLAY@coj.net
WBISHOP@coj.net
RCLARK@coj.net
REDMAN@coj.net
LBOYER@coj.net
MATTS@coj.net
GAFFNEY@coj.net
EDLEE@coj.net
WAJONES@coj.net
RBROWN@coj.net
HOLT@coj.net
DOYLEC@coj.net
GULLIFORD@coj.net
JIMLOVE@coj.net
KIMDANIELS@coj.net
JRC@coj.net
JOOST@coj.net
GANDERSON@coj.net
RLUMB@coj.net

Quote from: iloveionia on June 22, 2013, 07:30:46 PM
No excuses.  Cut and paste the addresses.  Type.  Send.  Speak your passion for preservation.  Get to it!

CLAY@coj.net
WBISHOP@coj.net
RCLARK@coj.net
REDMAN@coj.net
LBOYER@coj.net
MATTS@coj.net
GAFFNEY@coj.net
EDLEE@coj.net
WAJONES@coj.net
RBROWN@coj.net
HOLT@coj.net
DOYLEC@coj.net
GULLIFORD@coj.net
JIMLOVE@coj.net
KIMDANIELS@coj.net
JRC@coj.net
JOOST@coj.net
GANDERSON@coj.net
RLUMB@coj.net

Good idea, but what is the lever to get the council to listen?  You will need one beyond simply we love old buildings.  Any suggestion as to what should be in this correspondence? For the record, there is no ill tone meant in my post at all.  :)  It's just long fought battles with similar issues that have me giving some insights as to what works most effectively in dealing with the city and both appointed and elected officials.

Yea, I have been passing by this house almost every morning for the past 4 weeks...then I come down Friday about 4-4:30pm  and only the left half is standing..of course Two JSO cruisers were nearby chatting with each other.(To keep the mad neighbors from interfering?)   

I wonder who was in the backyard holding an umbrella?

Diane, I try to teach the ancient art of Forethought every day!
I usually get blank stares or comments like "Why do you have to over think (over plan?) everything!?"... ::)

watched the video Kim made.  Made me want to vomit.  Seriously sick to my stomach.  And tearing up.  The last part as the monster entered into the belly of the building and seeing the home crumble and fall is obscene. 

Quote from: jaxequality on June 22, 2013, 10:43:19 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 22, 2013, 10:30:19 AM

Quote from: jaxequality on June 22, 2013, 10:24:59 AM
Why is SPAR staying so quiet about all the demos going on?

They're normally the ones behind it.

^^ If they aren't going to do what their mission statement claims, isn't a lawsuit or some kind of official complaint in order? Wells Fargo gives them something like $10,000 a year and has a Historical center set up for Christ's sake. Do they realize they are lending their name to an organization that conducts itself like this?

I posted the following on SPAR's suggestion page yesterday.  Here's a link:  http://www.sparcouncil.org/749/stop_city_demolition_of_our_historic_homes?recruiter_id=749

QuoteSTOP CITY DEMOLITION OF OUR HISTORIC HOMES

I posted this on the myspringfield forum and thought I'd send it to you this way as well.

To the Members of SPAR's Board of Directors,

According your website, SPAR stands for Springfield Preservation And Revitalization.  I'm not seeing the 'preservation' part at all.  In less than a 30 day time period, the City of Jacksonville's Code Enforcement Division has demolished two historic structures within our historic district.  Where were you???  Why were you not kicking and screaming and pitching a complete hissy fit like some who were there?

The following is on your website:

"It is our pleasure to announce that the Wells Fargo First Coast Community Investment Committee has selected Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) as a 2013 grant recipient. The support is in the amount of $10,000.00 and will help continue the community development work that SPAR has facilitated for over three decades."

What is SPAR doing with that $10,000 grant?  If you allow the City of Jacksonville to continue to destroy our historic homes, how is that helping "continue the community development work"?

You say you are the representatives of Springfield.  If you truly are, then I challenge you to take a stand and DO SOMETHING TO STOP DEMOLITION!

Kim Pryor

Quote from: PATSY/AUTUMN on June 23, 2013, 01:32:57 AM
watched the video Kim made.  Made me want to vomit.  Seriously sick to my stomach.  And tearing up.  The last part as the monster entered into the belly of the building and seeing the home crumble and fall is obscene.

I agree completely!!!  And another very painful nail into my heart was when, in the very last seconds of the video, one of the demo contractors "celebrated" the old girl's final demise with a "cha-ching" "BOO-YAH" type arm motion.   :'( :'( :'(

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 22, 2013, 07:34:25 PM

Quote from: iloveionia on June 22, 2013, 07:30:46 PM
No excuses.  Cut and paste the addresses.  Type.  Send.  Speak your passion for preservation.  Get to it!

CLAY@coj.net
WBISHOP@coj.net
RCLARK@coj.net
REDMAN@coj.net
LBOYER@coj.net
MATTS@coj.net
GAFFNEY@coj.net
EDLEE@coj.net
WAJONES@coj.net
RBROWN@coj.net
HOLT@coj.net
DOYLEC@coj.net
GULLIFORD@coj.net
JIMLOVE@coj.net
KIMDANIELS@coj.net
JRC@coj.net
JOOST@coj.net
GANDERSON@coj.net
RLUMB@coj.net

Good idea, but what is the lever to get the council to listen?  You will need one beyond simply we love old buildings.  Any suggestion as to what should be in this correspondence? For the record, there is no ill tone meant in my post at all.  :)  It's just long fought battles with similar issues that have me giving some insights as to what works most effectively in dealing with the city and both appointed and elected officials.

Done! Very easily I might add. Thank you.

@ Diane I think we have a very strong complaint and I don't see how the city can ignore this issue.

It's not possible for me to attend, but I did send my letter

See this new thread to get info on signing a petition to stop city demos in historic n'hoods and review code enforcement's policies & procedures...also some other ideas about how to get involved in n'hood preservation.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,18749.0.html

The petition will take about 30 seconds to sign (and it will automatically be emailed to mayor and council members) and you can add your own thoughts/comments about this issue as well.

http://www.change.org/petitions/mayor-alvin-brown-city-council-members-issue-a-moratorium-on-demolitions-in-historic-neighborhoods

Quote from: jaxequality on June 23, 2013, 12:22:20 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 22, 2013, 07:34:25 PM

Quote from: iloveionia on June 22, 2013, 07:30:46 PM
No excuses.  Cut and paste the addresses.  Type.  Send.  Speak your passion for preservation.  Get to it!

CLAY@coj.net
WBISHOP@coj.net
RCLARK@coj.net
REDMAN@coj.net
LBOYER@coj.net
MATTS@coj.net
GAFFNEY@coj.net
EDLEE@coj.net
WAJONES@coj.net
RBROWN@coj.net
HOLT@coj.net
DOYLEC@coj.net
GULLIFORD@coj.net
JIMLOVE@coj.net
KIMDANIELS@coj.net
JRC@coj.net
JOOST@coj.net
GANDERSON@coj.net
RLUMB@coj.net

Good idea, but what is the lever to get the council to listen?  You will need one beyond simply we love old buildings.  Any suggestion as to what should be in this correspondence? For the record, there is no ill tone meant in my post at all.  :)  It's just long fought battles with similar issues that have me giving some insights as to what works most effectively in dealing with the city and both appointed and elected officials.

Done! Very easily I might add. Thank you.

@ Diane I think we have a very strong complaint and I don't see how the city can ignore this issue.

Then go get em' kiddo!   :) 

(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/253e2nd.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/253e2nd.jpg.html)

the house next door is gone too btw

This was going to be Metro North's NSP3 project.  It was funded.

How do we get the paperwork?  Public records request?

Yes.  You may also want to make a trip to the Preservation Office for the city and view the files they have on the structure.  It is a very good way to come across information that might otherwise be missed.  :)

I don't have.... I don't know....that was a terrible thing to watch.  What a waste. 

If the city is so concerned with the safety of its citizens, why don't we get better (or any) bike lanes and sidewalks?

Hey, I'm all for them focusing on something else, but that might put some of the code enforcement people out of a job. Oh wait...

i do agree. i watch a person in a motorized wheelchair regularly go down my drive out into traffic on park to avoid my impassable sidewalk.

While digging around looking for info on another house, we came across this:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4809062505_7b15314dcc_b.jpg)

Over on the left hand side (use the bar at the bottom to scoot it over) you'll see the beginnings of a discussion about this property.

Joel tells the commission:

Quote
...This building has a new roof, it has been completely -- a new structural system has been put on the inside.  They started putting in heating and air-conditioning or duct work.

     Unfortunately, they started bracing and rebuilding the porch.  Unfortunately, they put the wrong windows in....

we are requesting the rest of the transcript on this house.

Decided to check to see how much the City has spent on this property.  Below are the current nuisance liens and the amounts due as of today.  This does NOT include the demolition lien that has yet to be filed.

Nuisance Lien  NBNL11007742  09/12/2011  $717.78   
Nuisance Lien  NBNL11002061  12/01/2010  $712.59   
Nuisance Lien  NBNL11001606  11/19/2010  $2,462.66   
Nuisance Lien  NBNL10006225  08/28/2010  $667.92   
Nuisance Lien  NBNL10004240  04/21/2010  $477.71   

The above amounts are the total amount due which includes the initial cost and accumulated interest.  Due to the difficulty in obtaining public records and the excessive costs quoted, I don't have the actual records and can only assume the amounts less than $1,000 are for lawn maintenance/grass cutting.  The largest lien is most likely for boarding, which was quite successful in keeping people out of the structure.  The City boards were still on the structure the day it was demolished.

So I ask.....why did the City tear down a structure that they spent over $2,000 securing?  Doesn't make any sense to me.   And now the city has an even bigger area to mow/maintain.  Sad indeed....

Nuisance liens are for work performed.  They consist of the city approved sub-contractor charges to actually do the work and then an add-on for city admin costs.  If not paid by a certain time, interest starts to accrue. And last ime I had to deal with it, the lawn care company cutting that lawn for you gets 35 to 50 dollars, it charges the city 200 to 300 for the "abandoned" house. But I'm sure it is all legit.

Now add to this total the most recent cost of the demolition (8 to 15K?) and then compare that to the fact that if Ms Scott had listened to the planning department and not torn down this house, those nuisance liens mentioned above would have been paid at closing and the demolition costs would never have been incurred.

So what could have been a plus for the city both financially and community relation wise was turned into a potential $ 200,000.00 plus cost to us tax payers by Ms Scott and her desire to demolish another house.  And what happens if it is proved that she used federal funding to do it and did not follow the federal rules?  Could millions of federal funding be withheld because of it? 

Hmm,  let me see, we are closing libraries but still allowing MS Scott to run her department in such a way as to cost us tax payers potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars per demolished historic house, and put millions of dollars of federal funding potentially at risk.  Yep, I must be in Jacksonville.

Partial response from the city as to the demolition costs:

253 E 2nd Street Demolition:


Cost of Report - $909.85
Demolition Cost - $16,995.00
Contractor – P & G Land Clearing, Inc.
Funding Source – HNHS1A3HPDC-09995NSP304-PDC023-11

129 E 2nd Street Demolition:


Cost of Report - $523.85
Demolition Cost - $10,495.00
Contractor – P & G Land Clearing, Inc.
Funding Source – HNHS1A3HPDC-09995NSP304-PDC023-11

Quote from: movedsouth on July 16, 2013, 04:53:10 PM
253 E 2nd Street Demolition:
Funding Source – HNHS1A3HPDC-09995NSP304-PDC023-11

129 E 2nd Street Demolition:
Funding Source – HNHS1A3HPDC-09995NSP304-PDC023-11

NSP3 appears together in each of the funding sources.
I am not one to believe in coincidences. 
NSP dollars funded the demo of historic homes?

(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/permitscan2532ndste.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/permitscan2532ndste.jpg.html)

Hard to see the above image, but Mr Lloyd used $ 2,475.00 as a cost of demo on the permit form for 253 East 2nd St and the same for 129 East 2nd St.  You are required to disclose the correct costs on those official documents.  It appears that Mr Lloyd used a number below the $ 2,500.00 requiring a Notice of Commencement perhaps?  Not all that legal I also suspect. Or there could be a scaled cost for demolition permits so he was trying to keep his permit cost down?  Not very legal either.

The next thing to look at will be how P& G Land Clearing stacks up against the competition in competitive bidding for regular demolitions.  Is he normally high?  Or normally the lowest?  If so, using him for emergency demolition that are not bid out could be a reward for those low bids and he really make up for them with the emergencies or of course, it could be a sign that things are not exactly being legally done.