Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4103-4_-_s0.3.jpg)
Is Downtown ready for national chain retailers, hotels, a movie theater, and streetcars? The local development team for the proposed Bay Street Station development believes so. Today, Metro Jacksonville presents the conceptual renderings for what could become Downtown's largest transit oriented development.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/739
Great article! :D I hope that we will start construction on it real soon 8).
Great article. I think this is what we need downtown; greater density in commercial and residential usage of available space.
This would be awesome to finally see something in that abandoned Mars like terrain and also perhaps seeing a streetcar. Hopefully it is a real vintage streetcar and not one of those new Epcot style monorails. But I will believe this when I see it. There has been too much talking and not much walking with development in downtown.
wow...please tell me this has a shot at happening. Please!
Ock will say something about the street cars for sure!
QuoteBuilding Uses:
Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet
Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower)
Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower)
Health Club - 86,648 square feet
Parking - 181,819 square feet
Retail - 115,200 square feet
Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower)
Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet
The proposed building uses are awesome. The only thing I'm curious about is the missing residential component. I suppose that is due to the poor market conditions.
Once the market pickes back up, the parking lots on the north side of Bay Street are ideal for new highrise residential towers with ground level mixed uses similar to the ones being built in Charlotte and Nashville.
I wonder if this project (or at least the full service hotel portion) is contincent on the convention center staying where it is.
If this goes as planned, it will definitely spur additional development in the "in close" Brooklyn and nearby Lavilla areas and the "Mars Type Landscape" surrounding as someone defined it; look for hotels, and possibly office towers to shoot up around this area, possibly a second downtown.
Heights Unknown
This looks great. I do wonder whether the proposed streetcar will compete with rather than complement the skyway. If it does compete, who would choose to ride the skyway over a streetcar?
If the streetcar was a part of a line that stretched into Springfield and Five Points it would then complement the Skyway. Although there is some duplication of the Skyway's Bay Street line (really its just the Jefferson Street station), the Skyway still could serve as the transit system to FCCJ, Hemming Plaza, the Southbank and possibly Riverside Avenue (north of I-95)
*stares at screen, mouth agape*
this...this looks like the perfect development....oh...my....i may cry......oh please let this happen....if it does...God be praised....just what the city needs....cant speak in real sentences.....can only use fragments.....oops...now im lost for words.....
This is exciting. It would be refreshing for the city as a whole to see this project get started. And why stop there? If you build it, they will come...as long as they feel safe in coming.
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http://thebrokenforum.wordpress.com/
i hope this is the end of an era, which we can look back on and call the dark ages of downtown.
wow this is making me giddy :D
the design is great, and look at that radio tower thing on the hotel.
classic and awesome...whatever it is...
wow cool it wont be done funding will fall juss like everyother project in this city and recession wont help either.
I hope the final design honors the fact that Water St is the approach to the Terminal, Jax's grandest facade. The visuals along Water must be preserved and the development's southwestern corner must interact appropriately with the Terminal.
Quote from: RiversideGator on March 20, 2008, 01:04:21 PM
This looks great. I do wonder whether the proposed streetcar will compete with rather than complement the skyway. If it does compete, who would choose to ride the skyway over a streetcar?
I would!........it rains a lot in Jax
This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good ;D. On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished??
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/GRAPHIC-LOGODOCTORED.jpg)
The shape of things to come!
Streetcar planning by these Jefferson Street Station developers is foward thinking and VERY tourist oriented. As a tourism attraction it can NOT fail.
The scoop on the plan is in the words "Narrow Gauge" meaning any railroad track with the running rails spaced closer then 4' 8 1/2" or Standard Gauge. Narrow gauge was very popular after the American Civil War, in fact Florida once had over 1,000 miles of 3' gauge and about 15 miles of 2' gauge common carriers. We also had our share of "Wide Gauge" which at one time included most of our own streetcar companies, until they were consolidated. The reasons for railroads going with narrow gauge was logic and economics, in states with high mountains, swamps, remote sparse populations it just made sense. A 3' gauge railroad could be built in 1890 for about 50% of the cost of standard gauge, but the load factors were about 75% or better. Rail was smaller, ties were shorter, right of way could be narrower... A regular 3' gauge car is about 8' wide, 30-40' long. A regular 2' gauge car is 6' wide, 20-35' long. Standard gauge cars are usually 10' wide, and 40-85' long.
One of the largest barriers to invasion of the South by rail that faced the Union in the War of Yankee Aggression was that most Southern Railroads used a wide gauge.
Now that you understand the economics, a little history. Most of the small hotel type trams that ran in Florida were probably 3' gauge. Many mainline railroads were too. The Florida Southern, The South Florida, The Sanford and St. Petersburg (Orange Belt Ry), all became part of the Atlantic Coast Line...SCL...CSX! The new Orlando Commuter Rail is over the line built by the South Florida RR.. Most of the lumber lines in the Okefenokee were narrow gauge, go figure, low costs, lots of bridges, similar tonnage. Yet the Jacksonville Southwestern (Baldwin Rail Trail) which became ACL...SCL...CSX was standard gauge. So was the Ocklawaha Valley, my favorite hard luck railroad. Traction companies were a bit tougher since the economics of buying off the shelf made standard gauge, or wide gauge, the choice. Denver and Los Angeles were exceptions to the rule as both had narrow gauge streetcars.
By 1900-1920 the handwriting was on the wall. 2' gauge retreated to a few spots in Maine, then vanished before WWII. 3' gauge was found in PA, NC, CO, NM, CA, NV, HI and each year found less and less miles. Today if you want to ride a REAL 2' gauge railroad you travel to India or Brazil... Where each country was smart enough to save one isolated line. If you want a 3' experience you can ride in Western PA, CO, NM or HI, otherwise, you can view them in various locations as displays. With 5 million+ railfans in the world, it's little wonder that the few narrow gauge lines do quite well today.
Back about 1970 some folks imported a batch of tiny 2' and 3' trams from Europe. Detroit built it's downtown streetcar project with the "cheap" narrow gauge cars. Parts couldn't be found, and repairs became a major headache. Everything under the floor was just about a custom job. The system was very popular and today they are planning to rebuild it, even larger, but this time it will be standard gauge. On the other hand those Detroit cars went to Memphis, Dallas and other Cities which sent them to rebuilders that converted them from the floor down to standard gauge trolleys.
So what does this mean to us? Well, if the Jefferson Street Station can pull this off with a REAL narrow gauge streetcar. Overhead wire, 600 volt DC, steel wheel on steel rail! REAL would be the trip word here. A fake will only get them local pull, and quickly gain them a "joke nickname" in the railroad world. Gas engines, or other fake junk will do even more damage... Don't pee on our legs and tell us its raining. This is Damage that would be hard to repair. However if they bring in something from the European low lands or Australia and it's REAL? I'll be first in line.
(http://static.flickr.com/25/96986856_54154c1522.jpg)
Lastly, "BUT WHAT ABOUT EXPANSION?" "WHAT ABOUT OUR OWN TROLLEY SYSTEM?" Having two streetcar companies might be so cool... Only Jacksonville and San Francisco could make such a claim! We both need Water Street... No problem. Simply have the ties made to hold rail of both size traction companies. In short, you build 3 rail - dual gauge track. The narrow gauge shuttles back and forth and the standard gauge heads on to the Hyatt, Stadiums etc... The state, indeed the nation were once full of dual gauge track... Denver Union Station, Sanford Union Station, Gainesville, Waycross...etc. This is a CAN DO project.
Skyway competition? Not a chance. Until JTA and the City decides to build the Skyway to proper Terminals such as the new San Marco Project, Stadium (via Bay and Randolph), Riverside (via Riverside Drive), the Skyway will compete with NOTHING! As it is, the two should work to feed eachother. If the Skyway is ever completed, add in commuter rail and completed Traction System and we have MASS TRANSIT. Your bus, feeds the Skyway, feeds the Traction Company, feeds the water taxi, feeds the narrow gauge, feeds etc...
Anyone involved in this project is invited to give me a call, send me a message on this forum.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Jason on March 20, 2008, 09:20:33 AM
QuoteBuilding Uses:
Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet
Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower)
Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower)
Health Club - 86,648 square feet
Parking - 181,819 square feet
Retail - 115,200 square feet
Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower)
Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet
The proposed building uses are awesome. The only thing I'm curious about is the missing residential component. I suppose that is due to the poor market conditions.
Once the market pickes back up, the parking lots on the north side of Bay Street are ideal for new highrise residential towers with ground level mixed uses similar to the ones being built in Charlotte and Nashville.
That's a good thought. I like to see more high rises built in downtown myself. Especially on LaVilla! 8)
(http://www.kolarsky.com/family/brazil98/7.jpg)
Here is a view of what they might have in mind. This classic little tranvia runs to Santa Theresa, Brazil. Like here, most of the systems in South America were trashed for buses. They too realize thier mistakes, some cities have kept a tiny historic segment running. Others just ghosts that haunt the streets at night. One late night in Bogota, we came across miles and miles of narrow gauge tram lines...The wire dead since 1950. But the track looked like it was good yesterday.
(http://www.rpsi-online.org/images/photonews/trainrides2006/09.jpg)
My greatest fear is this is something like what we'll end up with... You could see the damage this would do to our railroad or trolley history image.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Coolyfett on March 20, 2008, 09:29:50 PM
This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good ;D. On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished??
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
I can see it right now. Downtown can really expand with that whole entire project. By the way, any news on when it will start construction?
Quote from: jeh1980 on April 02, 2008, 01:57:01 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on March 20, 2008, 09:29:50 PM
This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good ;D. On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished??
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
I can see it right now. Downtown can really expand with that whole entire project. By the way, any news on when it will start construction?
I was wondering that same thing. So this project is OFFICIAL??
I don't think its official yet. Seems pretty much conceptual or maybe a step up to "proposed".
Over the last three years or so, about 15% of the projects that reached the stage of Bay St Station actually broke ground.
I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.
I certainly wouldn't get too excited. Look at the Brooklyn/Hallmark Project....still no dirt turning.
Quote from: Steve on April 02, 2008, 09:32:47 AM
Over the last three years or so, about 15% of the projects that reached the stage of Bay St Station actually broke ground.
I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.
"the stage"? What exactly do you mean? What other projects have reached the stage?
Conceptual Renderings and an initial pass through the Downtown Design Review Board. Remember St Johns Point, the St James Hotel, or the Related Group Development on the Southbank?
If not, then my point exactly.
Quote from: Steve on April 02, 2008, 06:27:04 PM
Conceptual Renderings and an initial pass through the Downtown Design Review Board. Remember St Johns Point, the St James Hotel, or the Related Group Development on the Southbank?
If not, then my point exactly.
Sounds familiar but I'm not exactly sure. Those places were built correct??
uh ... no, which is Steve's point
St Johns point was a proposed development near the stadium on the river. It was supposed to be three 30+ story towers.
St James was a proposed 70 story tower at the corner of Bay and A Phillip Randolph that was supposed to be a hotel and condo
Related had a six tower plan for the Radisson Hotel Site.
I'll post renderings tomorrow.
Here is more:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/689/115/
Finally, I've found time to be able to model some more buildings.
Here is what I threw together on Bay Street Station. The heights and proportions are pretty accurate however the details are not.
Gives you a great idea of the development's impact.
Looking Northeast from Brooklyn.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/BayStreetStation-1.jpg)
Looking Northwest from the Acosta
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/BayStreetStation-2.jpg)
Up close along Bay Street
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/BayStreetStation-3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/BayStreetStation-4.jpg)
Good work. If it happens, it will go a long way towards transforming the wasteland formerly known as LaVilla.
Great shots. I wonder if you can give me any updates on the new Bay Street project if you can and when it will begin construction. :D
Don't you see, I've already built it! :)
I saw a scale model of this today. This will be great if it goes through.
so is the skyway not going to brooklyn park anymore?
...or was it never going there and im a looney?
Brooklyn Park has not broken ground yet. JTA is not going to move forward on the skyway station until Brooklyn Park is up and running.
Does anyone know the status of this project?
Can't give you details, but... how about...
um?
REAL and COMING SOON.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Steve on March 20, 2008, 09:42:00 AM
I wonder if this project (or at least the full service hotel portion) is contingent on the convention center staying where it is.
Do you mean the
Optimus Prime Osborne Convention Center?
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2008/06/optimus-prime-convention-center.html
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8075/optimusprimeconventioncjm3.jpg)
Jaxconf. That's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. In regards to Brooklyn Park/Hallmark Partners or whatever. I saw a new sign for the building housing Marks Gray. This thing has been dead for so long I have forgotten the names. I would have looked for more info, but I was going 45 mph at the time.
My guess is, with streetcar or skyway extension toward the stadium, and the slowly improving city scene, once the Court House and Bay Street Station break ground.... along will come the Vu, St. Johns, Shipyards to restart the party... The St James would top it off.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 24, 2008, 02:17:55 PM
My guess is, with streetcar or skyway extension toward the stadium, and the slowly improving city scene, once the Court House and Bay Street Station break ground.... along will come the Vu, St. Johns, Shipyards to restart the party... The St James would top it off.
Ocklawaha
Hmmmm, good hope, dream, vision and future assessment of what "CAN" happen if one or two developments are built and provide themselves as a spark or impetus for all of the others; and what a great party that will be!
Heights Unknown
The St. James, shyt, that thing will never come to. Thank goodness anyways, it was an ugly big box. The St. John on the other hand, simply gorgeous!
So, has this project flatlined as well?
It was pretty conceptual when announced. They were a couple of years from breaking ground so it could still be alive.
QuoteFinally, I've found time to be able to model some more buildings.
Here is what I threw together on Bay Street Station. The heights and proportions are pretty accurate however the details are not.
Gives you a great idea of the development's impact.
Looking Northeast from Brooklyn.
Jason, I'm working on an historical google earth model of downtown and noticed that you have some great sketchup models in this post. Is there anyway I can get copies of these models?
Send me a PM and I'll get you everything I have. Might be monday though...
Quote from: reednavy on July 24, 2008, 02:25:49 PM
The St. James, shyt, that thing will never come to. Thank goodness anyways, it was an ugly big box. The St. John on the other hand, simply gorgeous!
You're absolutely right about the St. John. However, I will still take the 'ugly big box', St. James.
I think it would be dynamic in our skyline, especially at night.
Quote from: Seraphs on July 24, 2009, 05:39:55 PM
You're absolutely right about the St. John. However, I will still take the 'ugly big box', St. James.
I think it would be dynamic in our skyline, especially at night.
Have you seen the nighttime rendering? It is horrible and would fight it tooth and nail, yet thankfully it is long dead. The St. John, however, is still very much on the table, just waiting for the right timing to come back.
i'll take something, anything
OMG,
The St. James' website is still up and running! Good God this thing looks so plan and dull, even Miami has enough buildings like this now.
http://stjamesjax.com/index.html
Okay I'm a little behind the times I guess.Is this a planned hotel that now isn't going to be built? Or is this still in the works and just hasn't started yet? Since the website says watch the Jaguars play at Alltel Stadium and it hasn't been Alltel Stadium in, what, 4 years.
Quote from: reednavy on August 04, 2009, 11:43:02 AM
OMG,
The St. James' website is still up and running! Good God this thing looks so plan and dull, even Miami has enough buildings like this now.
http://stjamesjax.com/index.html
I for one hope this isn't an oversight, and the website just sits and rots... Hopefully this means something to someone with deep pockets. Considering our City's economic recovery position against Miami, Tampa and Orlando, I'd say we still have the momentum to fill this highrise.
One wonders if a deal to take the Skyway inside would give them the push they need to break ground? If not would streetcars do the trick?
BTW reednavy, if you don't like stark white modern towers PLEASE never go to Panama City, Panama, as you'll probably want to drown yourself! White skyscrapers? Modern? Panama? Yeah, how about twice as many as Miami, Jax, Tampa, and Orlando combined... and we could still toss in Atlanta, Birmingham and Charlotte!OCKLAWAHA
I was in the existing building the other day at the site moving out a client's stuff and noticed the models and drawings are still up. So I can only assume it's still a go. Though with the low occupancy of Berkmann, the Strand and Peninsula. I dunno if there's a need for many more living space in the area. I suppose it'd be good for hardcore football fans.
Nice find Reed. Those renderings look like they've been updated within the last two years as I don't recall seeing them before.
(http://stjamesjax.com/images/Rear-Elev1_385.jpg)
(http://stjamesjax.com/images/Pool-Deck-1aa.jpg)
This is one of the older renderings. I do remember this one.
(http://stjamesjax.com/images/rendering.jpg)
Hmmm, just saw a Club Paris add on the webpage... Don't think the site has been updated in a while.
http://stjamesjax.com/contact-us.html
I wouldn't mind the building at all if it was going to be in a denser area. As it is, this will be in the middle of nowhere out by the stadium. If it gets built before the shipyards, I think it will be an eyesore.
My guess is its an oversight and for everyone to not get their hopes up. This project is dead or at least indefinitely delayed.
Ock, that building is hardly modern. It is a giant rectangle with glass railings and isn't on the river, it is on the north side of the Hart Bridge ramp by Met Park.
We don't need a a plain box as our tallest anyways, it was proposed at 700ft, bleh! If this were put beside the Jacksonville Center or Wachovia Tower, then it'd look better, but still.
Nice to also see the amenities deck is facing north, so it is shaded most of the day and w/o a river view, who'd want that?
This building is basically a carbon copy of a tower constructed in DT Miami during the recent real estate boom.
(http://www.dienerproperties.com/images/50-Biscayne/50_Biscayne.jpg)
http://www.50biscaynemiami.com/
Copyright 2006 on the site. Holding my breath.
Bet you turn blue before we see dirt move!
reednavy, I'd still call the thing modern or contemporary, but I'm with you on the rather blah look. As I said, pick any building in Panama City and you've got it. I'd still love to see either St. James or the St. John go forward and wouldn't care which is first. Right now we need the influx of jobs, construction and business activity downtown.
I would love to see a model of the skyline with the current buildings and this odd-man-out way off to the East, for certain it would look very odd.
Wonder how much more new development the new Courthouse might spur? Wonder if it will generate enough dust to kick off Bay Street Station, JTA, Ambassador, or any others?
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteWonder how much more new development the new Courthouse might spur? Wonder if it will generate enough dust to kick off Bay Street Station, JTA, Ambassador, or any others?
OCKLAWAHA
According to Carlton Jones - Bay St Station is still moving forward. They had some contaminates to clear on the site for which they got a grant to do. Also - Hallmark Partners is expecting to start construction at 200 Riverside before the end of the year. Their financing is in place and working out somefinal details.
I hope your right, I just haven't seen any action on the site and have started wondering if the partners left town. Meanwhile the City has done NOTHING to push the streetcar plan. Carlton is a nice guy, and I wish him the best.
OCKLAWAHA
Sounds like good news. Hope it goes through.
Here you go Ock. This are some very old images I put together when the renderings were first released.
It would look pretty out of place without the Shipyards to compliment it. But if it broke ground I would still be ecstatic.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/StJames-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/StJames-2.jpg)
With the Shipyards in the foreground...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TheShipyards-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TheShipyards-2.jpg)
Thanks Jason!
Well it would look way lop-sided, and the gap where the Shipyards was to be would be such a hole in the City that perhaps it would become a vortex, pulling in other buildings. Either way I like the idea of another grand building, just wish it was more downtown. Time will tell, I'm sure NOT placing any bets.
OCKLAWAHA
Those last two images are amazing. I remember when Berkman and the Shipyards were first introduced (yes, the buzz for both projects started at about the same time, can you believe that?), they were calling Bay Street the "billion dollar mile". Those were the days.
I remember that too Captain. The Shipyards has to be the single greatest boondoggle within the last 10 years. At least the Courthouse is acually being built now.
Still, good news that Bay Street Station and Hallmark appear to be moving forward. When all of the cranes in the LaVilla/Brooklyn area as well as Wolfson's/Baptist go up, that should easily enhance the perception that Jax has seen the end of the recession. Passers by on the I95 corridor will get an eyefull of progress.
If Bay Street Station does actually break ground, how will this affect the possibility of moving the convention center? I'm hoping there isn't some unknown written clause somewhere that promises to keep the convention center where it is. Would the project still move forward if it was connected to a new Prime Osborn Transit Center and not the convention center? Don't you think we should get the developers to encourage Amtrak to move downtown as well? Wouldn't now be a great time to make a formal plan for this area so everyone can move forward with a vision in place? The city, JTA, Bay Street developers and Amtrak should all be on the same page, or we are going to end up with a half built development that never amounts to anything and once again won't be connected to anything else in downtown.
If the Bay Street developers are serious about including the skyway as an intricate part of their building, then we should go with that and start work on some extensions so that we can connect the rest of downtown to this massive development. Office workers should be able to take the skyway from Bay SS to the afternoon Suns game, RAM attendees should be able to get to Bay SS for lunch, Berkman Plaza residents should be able to go to Bay SS to shop, FCCJ students should be able to catch a movie after class. Do you start to see what I see? Pretty soon we are all connected by fixed transit and every little pocket of development feeds upon all the others. The anchors are in, the infill happens along the way and pretty soon, we are no longer jealous of Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Pretty soon we are that Bold New City!
Perhaps it is time we stop trying to convince the rednecks that the city budget doesn't pay for our school system, and move on! Let's halt the shrinking tax base in the urban core. We don't have to build a new freeway to get to it, water and sewer lines are already laid, the most expensive part of a fixed mass transit system is already in place. What are we waiting for?
^ +1
I had never thought about that before. For ONCE, we already have the Skyway in place, we just need the development to go with it. Lets be honest, the Convention Center isn't a real destination. On the off chance that the car show or something that doesn't go to the Hyatt ends up at the Convention Center, maybe a few people use the skyway to get there. Theres already an absolutely useless stop right by those grass fields in front of the (Optimus) Prime Osborn. Let's build this yesterday and begin to build up downtown.
Quote from: brainstormer on August 05, 2009, 09:57:20 AM
If Bay Street Station does actually break ground, how will this affect the possibility of moving the convention center? I'm hoping there isn't some unknown written clause somewhere that promises to keep the convention center where it is. Would the project still move forward if it was connected to a new Prime Osborn Transit Center and not the convention center? Don't you think we should get the developers to encourage Amtrak to move downtown as well? Wouldn't now be a great time to make a formal plan for this area so everyone can move forward with a vision in place? The city, JTA, Bay Street developers and Amtrak should all be on the same page, or we are going to end up with a half built development that never amounts to anything and once again won't be connected to anything else in downtown.
If the Bay Street developers are serious about including the skyway as an intricate part of their building, then we should go with that and start work on some extensions so that we can connect the rest of downtown to this massive development. Office workers should be able to take the skyway from Bay SS to the afternoon Suns game, RAM attendees should be able to get to Bay SS for lunch, Berkman Plaza residents should be able to go to Bay SS to shop, FCCJ students should be able to catch a movie after class. Do you start to see what I see? Pretty soon we are all connected by fixed transit and every little pocket of development feeds upon all the others. The anchors are in, the infill happens along the way and pretty soon, we are no longer jealous of Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Pretty soon we are that Bold New City!
Perhaps it is time we stop trying to convince the rednecks that the city budget doesn't pay for our school system, and move on! Let's halt the shrinking tax base in the urban core. We don't have to build a new freeway to get to it, water and sewer lines are already laid, the most expensive part of a fixed mass transit system is already in place. What are we waiting for?
For a certainty, if there IS an unknown written clause to keep the Convention Center in the middle of Florida's only natural transportation center, it will effect the latter to such an extent so as never to realize it's true economic potential.
The developers should certainly pull Amtrak into their plans, it would cost them nothing and they would have huge dividends to enjoy the benefits of an intermodal center. Transportation, well planned and built, would be a stronger magnet for development then any convention center. Good transit can string development through a city and create miles of hot spots and billions in new start construction.
Bay Street Station also embraces the streetcar system, in fact to such an extent that they have even suggested building their own if needs be.
Your conclusions on what this development and good FINISHED mass transit (SKYWAY and STREETCAR) could do downtown is something Lakelander, Lunican, Stephendare and Myself have been trying to pound in for several years. Still there are some who flatly refuse to use vision, selfishly thinking every improvement a personal tax liability to themselves. Jacksonville, speak: "The cup is half empty - the cup is half empty - the cup is half empty..." OCKLAWAHA
Even in the renderings Jason, it looks lonely and uninviting. It reminds me of a giant domino.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 05, 2009, 10:08:27 AM
^ +1
I had never thought about that before. For ONCE, we already have the Skyway in place, we just need the development to go with it. Lets be honest, the Convention Center isn't a real destination. On the off chance that the car show or something that doesn't go to the Hyatt ends up at the Convention Center, maybe a few people use the skyway to get there. Theres already an absolutely useless stop right by those grass fields in front of the (Optimus) Prime Osborn. Let's build this yesterday and begin to build up downtown.
^ +2
IMO, a skyway extension to the sports district with a stop at a new convention center at the old courthouse site will be the tipping point for core development and still keep Bay Street station connected to the CC and allow the Optimus to be the Prime transportation center of Florida.
Jax as Fla's transport center, I like it. Amtrax from downtown to Orlando and Miami, (Atlanta even?). Those on business trips that start in Jax but also have a needed day stop in the other cities use the rail for their one day meeting and are back same day and maybe staying another night in town before heading out. $$$
I think it looks good in the shipyards rendering. Try to imaging the arena behind it, in the image it's flat, but I think it would look great there!
I'd like to see a new addition to our skyline:) I bed the view of the Hart would be amazing!
What's the status for this project??
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-j2v_UstuTv8/TiW0lFp03sI/AAAAAAAAFRk/8iYLtjrJhQw/s800/Toonerville.jpg)
At least the Toonerville Trolley was 'real'.
The car comes from a toy train museum in Orlando. I've been told it is only 2' gauge, looks worse then out Potato-Chip-Trucks-Think-Their-Trolleys vehicles and about 1/2 their size. It also has an 'authentic' gasoline engine so it sounds like a cross between your neighbors lawn mower and a Japanese Zero. I seriously doubt the FTA or anyone else would seriously consider letting this thing operate in the street, in a busy urban downtown. In weight alone a collision at Jefferson or Broad with a Mini-Cooper would total it and a 18 wheeled Peterbilt rig would annihilate it and its passengers.
There ARE REAL narrow gauge streetcars out there that would actually be interesting. Streetcars have a large fan following and narrow gauge ANYTHING is extremely popular with train spotters and those wanting to add more miles to their 'collection'. A real narrow gauge streetcar is going to weigh in somewhere around 25,000 pounds so even though it's small its nothing you would want to smash into. The streetcars are mostly older wood and steel vehicles with some beautiful REAL wood and very ornate. Narrow gauge was generally out of favor by the 1890's so we'd be talking about very few cars (I know of 3 for sale) and almost zero chance for more since they'd be 100+ years old.
So there is narrow gauge and there is this Orlando 'thing,' and it's probably unholy to mention the two in the same sentence. OCKLAWAHA