City interested in demolishing Claude Nolan building?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1114372377_DyT5o-M.jpg)
Documents obtained from a Metro Jaxon reveals the City of Jacksonville's interest in demolishing H.J. Klutho's 101-year-old Claude Nolan Cadillac building at 937 North Main Street.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-city-interested-demolishing-claude-nolan-building (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-city-interested-demolishing-claude-nolan-building)
There's no way they go through with this. Cities don't just demolish historic buildings with tons of character and potential in a developing core. Am I right?
What's that?
Oh. :o
Why is the city trying to tear down the building? It does not appear to be unsafe. What if anything would go in it's place? Weeds would be my guess.
Why spend money the city doesn't have to demolish a reuseable building? How can the city demolish this building yet insist that Bostwick not be?
It's part of the Emerald necklace and you may want to bring this up with The DIA.
To my knowledge the city doesn't even own this building. Why would they be putting out bids for its demolition? Is it unsafe? What is with this city demolishing everything they can?
Municipal Code Enforcement Division is responsible for the demolitions that the city does. The division chief, Ms Scott, seems to believe that the only safe building is a demolished one.
Obviously there has been or shortly will be an influx of funding for demolitions to Municipal Code Enforcement Division. It would be interesting to see where this funding is coming from, like perhaps NSP?
Wonder if the artists at CORK would be able to move to that building and save it...does the Jax Historical Society help save buildings? It's Klutho, it's historical.
It seems odd that MCCD would be pushing for demolition on this one building. There must be more to the story.
Unfortunately there is nothing odd about demos in Jax. If it was not for the hard research work being done, we would not know about the shady, sneaky, unscrupulous work being done by the city, behind the scenes to destroy the historic fabric of this town.
Nothing odd about demolitions. But why this one building now? Methinks some one has complained.
damn it. what is wrong with these people running this city. You have this great event going on Downtown but you still have this short sightedness that can not see correlation. Your right Tacachale I bet there is some $$$ behind this someone wants it demolished.
Code enforcement needs an overhaul, is this an apointed position?
Has this thing been partly demolished already? The then and now pictures look like two different buildings. Are the two main pictures oriented the same direction (the white building is the main building that had the Cadillac sign hanging off it)? If so, it looks like the historic character of the building has already been lost.
No point in knocking something down that isn't an imminent danger, though.
The exterior of the main structure was "renovated" decades ago to make it appear to be Art Deco. However, that's cosmetic and can easily be reconfigured as a part of restoration if a future owner decides to do so. The rest of the structure, and it's interior, pretty much remains in place.
Maybe our city leaders found out the building did not support the moratorium
It is an odd collection of building techniques. I remember from the EH Thompson days and visits to their warehouse. Timber framing, rivited steel and some odd concrete work makes it appear to be a suspect builing. As I recall there was a need to make some repairs to the concrete in the front building. However those things are common for period buildings like this. Even the old belt drive shafts for machinery still attached over head are common for that period.
It is a odd, crummy looking building, but never was too bad. However I haven't been in there since 2001.
I thought the people who own the park view site had plans for it? I guess if they dont actually own it, it doesnt make a difference. Hopefully they dont tear it down. We be a cool building to refurbish.
I think it is in the older review of the building, but I recall a mosaic image of the Cadillac logo in the floor, that is spectacular. This was truly a showcase building. I would seriously doubt you could build this building today, given the lack of materials and craftsman today. This would be a great loft building.
Is there any way to see who requested this? Why no notice, no hearing, no historical review, etc?
the only loss would be the interior construction. the exterior has been modified so much, there is little left that resembles the original building. the exterior of the building has very little qualities that would allow it to have protection under the guise of being ââ,¬Ëœhistoricââ,¬â,,¢ ââ,¬â€œ age simply doesnââ,¬â,,¢t do it. on a quick glance at the photo, there many changes to the building that reduce its historic value.
1. all the brick details have been stuccoââ,¬â,,¢d over.
2. the ground floor storefront has been removed and filled in.
3. the ornate cornice has been removed.
4. the above grade level windows have been removed and in filled with stucco/masonry, smaller windows and glass block.
5. additional art deco like details (vertical fluting) have been added to the building.
6. a additional two stories were added above the one story structure.
7. i can't tell from the photos, but i'd be will to bet the parapet has been modified.
upon further inspection, this list would grow vastly.
i'm an architect and i find very little redeeming qualities of what is left of the building's exterior facades. Klutho has probably long turned over in his grave as to the modified appearance of his design and would probably want it put out of its misery.
i can't image this building could be restored to its original self very cost effectively.
this building in its original state was a striking building. what has been allowed to happen to this building is a shame.
I believe the front is just stucco over the brick
if you were to take a plan cut thru the building at various levels, it appears to be more than just stucco applied to the brick. vertical element look as if they were removed along with additional furring out of the exterior face to make the stucco on a continuous plane. again, it is a shame that these modifications were allowed to happen to this building. the architect that drew up these modifications should have had his license revoked as a result.
Nothing that can't be undone.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1098318670_xdZtV-M.jpg)
To me, even the two industrial/warehouse buildings along Orange Street are worth preserving, as opposed to being another piece of scorched downtown earth. These structures (including the heavily altered Main Street building) come a dime a dozen in the older Midwest and Northeast. However, you'll have to search hard to find another early 20th century vertical automobile dealership complex still around in Florida, much less Jacksonville. I personally can't think of a similar warehouse/industrial structure anywhere else in Jacksonville. To add to this, Claude Nolan himself is a pretty significant figure in Jacksonville's history. Given his prominence, there's no telling what other type of monumental events (the Confederate reunion of 1914 for example) took place at this site. Team these two components together and focus on research around them and you probably can develop a strong case for preservation.
While working on another assignment on my laundry list of things to finish by tomorrow, I came across this. It's a photo after the Great Fire of 1901, taken from the waterworks site, looking south towards downtown and the river. The left part of this image captures the site this building would eventually be built on and the gas plant next door, which survived the fire.
(http://www.jacksonvillefiremuseum.com/Great%20Fire%201901%20(4).JPG)
It's multi story and urban, I think that the city thinks it's too urban. If it were one of those stupid strip malls or carcentric subdivisions, threr'd be no discussion to tear it down.
or another family dollar store..
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0743860000
This is the owner. Whatever that means. Anyone know anything about them?
937 MAIN STREET LLC
P O BOX 330108
ATLANTIC BEACH, FL 32233
Is this another situation like the Bostwick Building? Demolition by neglect?
Just wondering out loud.... What was the last building of historic significance torn down in the urban core? When did it occur?
Btw..in my prior post when I say urban core I am really referring to area we would consider as the core of downtown on the northbank. No lavilla or Brooklyn sites. Northbank.
For downtown, probably Worman's Deli at Adams and Broad. That was a few months back. The actual urban core? No telling, since buildings vaporize throughout the Northside on a regular basis. Since we really haven't dug deep into the history of these minority areas, as we have with some of the more well known neighborhoods, I'm sure we're not aware of half the history lost.
Northbank. Not northside. And not sure wormans was all that significant. Other than it was a building on the fringe of downtown.
^So you're talking about buildings of only architectural significance instead of historical or cultural? Provide me with a street boundary of what you consider the Northbank core and I'll try to pinpoint the last architecturally significant structure torn down within that particular area.
I guess doubly speaking from the river to say union. And Jefferson to the a Randolph.
And not to be a pain but I think it would interesting to know what is currently in where those buildings were torn down. Example. Is the land a parking lot. Vacant or where the new library, federal or county courthouse is now located.
This church at Julia & Church Street was torn down by KBJ Architects for a grass lot in 2007:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1145-p1000737.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/kbj_demolition/after-demo/DSC01868.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2670-p1050098.JPG)
Also, the Lerner Shops building on Main Street was torn down in 2009. It was a smaller retail structure that many probably don't consider significant. That is, until you start to realize the high number of small businesses that wanted to be in downtown, that ended up on King Street because of the lack of opportunity to pull off something affordable in DT. Farah & Farah turned this building's site into a private courtyard.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lerner_shops/dzhstz2_50pbqjfrcb.jpg)
Quote from: edjax on April 18, 2013, 08:35:51 PM
And not to be a pain but I think it would interesting to know what is currently in where those buildings were torn down. Example. Is the land a parking lot. Vacant or where the new library, federal or county courthouse is now located.
I can't think of anything since the demolition of the 10-story Rhodes Furniture building in the early 2000s, that didn't end up as a vacant lot or parking lot.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1101/605029944_ee8385b7f0.jpg)
Another decent building was the old Southern Bell office building on Adams, near Julia Street. It was torn down for the new courthouse, only to see the courthouse built across the street. To this day, the site remains a surface lot.
(http://www.propertyrights.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/325-West-Adams-Street.New-Duval-County-Courthouse-Site.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3YrZb96RkQAT1tSX_chbO8-hS5qKZBhVxNwcaVhF-HSMxfzeRHg)
Would Intuition Ale be interested in having a 2nd location in either the Claude Nolan bldg or the adjacent warehouse(s)? I know they were disappointed by not being able to build something at the shipyards. Intuition's success at this location adjacent to Hogan's creek could be a catalyst to clean up Confederate Park and the creek.
That ship has sailed. They looked at the property and decided against it a few months ago.
Looking generally at the core area of downtown, I think it's pretty clear that most buildings demolished there in the last 30 years or so have only been replaced with empty lots. There are a few demolished to make way for something new (the current library, Berkman buildings, and federal courthouse come to mind) but that hasn't been the norm. Even some of the newer buildings that replaced empty lots were not the original intent of the demolition. For instance, the BOA tower replaced an empty lot, but it wasn't planned that way. Barnett Bank actually demolished the old Heard National Bank Building for employee parking; it was only a good bit later that they decided to build the tower there.
Several empty lots were cleared for planned projects that failed for one reason or another. Others were to create parking. Sadly, still others were due to tax regulations that made it cheaper for owners to sit on empty lots than empty buildings.
Thanks Lake! Exactly where was the Rhodes building? What a shame!! Any ideas where we could have made wiser decisions on the new courthouses and library for being build? Realistically it is inevitable that some older structures will have to be torn down for newer buildings. Which I am not sure is always bad. What is the last year where something of significance was torn down that is now a vacant lot??
The Rhodes Building was on Main Street and came down for the library. As far as where else to build those buildings, there's much in the downtown core that's that size, that the city could get a hold of. There are many empty lots but they're spread around; in both cases it was pretty clear something was coming down. The other option would have been to go further out, like Lavilla (which the courthouse did, and it still took out a bunch of perfectly fine buildings).
For the library the original plan would have incorporated the Main Street buildings into the design, but the architects wouldn't do it within the budget. For the courthouse, well, there's a lot that could have been done to make it less of a disaster. The first step would probably have been not to start over from scratch after $60 million worth of work had already been done.
Looking forward there's more that can be done with the Library to improve it, if the city would take the initiative.
Quote from: edjax on April 18, 2013, 09:07:15 PM
Thanks Lake! Exactly where was the Rhodes building? What a shame!! Any ideas where we could have made wiser decisions on the new courthouses and library for being build?
The Rhodes was on the NW corner of Main & Monroe Streets. The library occupies that entire block now. Looking back, I believe the courthouse should have been vertical. IMO, it would have been better if both were constructed on a few of the numerous surface parking lots that existed back then, even if it meant not being adjacent to Hemming Plaza.
QuoteRealistically it is inevitable that some older structures will have to be torn down for newer buildings. Which I am not sure is always bad.
In general, I'd agree but right now, Charleston and Savannah are successfully defying this concept. Given that most of our downtown properties are dedicated to parking, we sound be able to accommodate new and old. However, that's not what's happening here. The majority of things being demolished here are resulting in vacant sites and surface parking lots.
QuoteWhat is the last year where something of significance was torn down that is now a vacant lot??
For me, Worman's had high cultural and historical significance on the development of this city, so 2012. If significance is only defined on the level of the Rhodes Building, then probably the Southern Bell building in 2003.
Thanks guys for all the info!! A couple of silver linings I guess is that it would appear we have gone a decade with no additional purging of downtown ( I just can't really buy into Wormans. But each to his own. So let's strive to make it two decades!!! It just seemed from some on here that we have still been tearing down buildings at the rate of one per month!! This is not so, so perhaps we have turned the corner!!! Another silver lining is that it appears that city/government has been the primary offender and hey... Really what else is there of sognicant size they need to build yet!! Oh, that pesky convention center?!! So perhaps the worst is behind us and we can now move forward and put our efforts into saving those worth saving and not keep living in the past. We know what it was and nothing can be done about it so focus on the future.
One last comment on Wormans. They owned the building as I recall and decided to close it and abandon it. I know their complaint was the delay in the courthouse. But they have a history of blaming their shortcomings on this type of stuff. Was the same years ago with rebuild of San Marco Blvd when they closed what is the current European Street. Then when construction was underway on San Jose they closed their place in Lakewood at the corner of San Jose and Univeristy.
I loved Wormans. I saw Henry Winkler there one morning eating breakfast. I think folks who visited thought it was a cool piece of Jacksonville flavor.
And the black and white cookies. yummm.
Quote from: edjax on April 18, 2013, 09:48:39 PM
Thanks guys for all the info!! A couple of silver linings I guess is that it would appear we have gone a decade with no additional purging of downtown ( I just can't really buy into Wormans. But each to his own.
This is part of the problem. A vibrant pedestrian scale urban environment is predicated on a sum of structures that add up into a dense cluster of buildings that interact with sidewalks adjacent to them. Many of these buildings seem insignificant on their own but when you tear them down one by one, you end up with scorched earth, dead of activity. You mentioned earlier that Broad Street/Worman's was on the edge of downtown. Actually, at one point it was one of downtown's most vibrant retail strips with Laura Street style density stretching from the river to Springfield/Hansontown. Now it's moonscape. Unfortunately for Jax, the preservation and reuse of those little insignificant buildings are a key component to urban revitalization.
QuoteSo let's strive to make it two decades!!! It just seemed from some on here that we have still been tearing down buildings at the rate of one per month!! This is not so, so perhaps we have turned the corner!!!
It's so. However, you've drawn a small box that you believe is the urban core, when in reality the walkable core is historically a 30 square mile area. What's happened in places like LaVilla, Brooklyn, the Eastside, Springfield and Durkeeville is outright criminal and ultimately slows down the revitalization of downtown, since it's actually dependent on the health and connectivity of the surrounding communities.
QuoteAnother silver lining is that it appears that city/government has been the primary offender and hey... Really what else is there of sognicant size they need to build yet!! Oh, that pesky convention center?!! So perhaps the worst is behind us and we can now move forward and put our efforts into saving those worth saving and not keep living in the past. We know what it was and nothing can be done about it so focus on the future.
Seeing the Claude Nolan on the list and the issues raised with Springfield Plastics and the Durkeeville residence, I'm not sure we've learned from the past. For me, that's the scary part. If we have not learned, we're putting ourselves in position to spend a ton of money in downtown and not achieve the vision everyone is being sold on.
I hear you and understand but sometime we just seem to use so much of our energy on the past. Like it or not there is not a thing that can undo what has already been done. If people use 10% of their energy bemoaning the past to me it just seems like that is 10% of their energy that is not focused on dealing with what they can address. Of course not all are like this but seems to be enough of it showing. You may not agree but hey we are all entitled to our own opinion and I see alot of it unfortunately.
^I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying regarding the past. It's not really my opinion. It's reality, not only for Jax but for most cities across the country.
From an urban planning standpoint, you have to study, understand and accept the past, if the goal is to change/modify failed policies to keep the same old results from happening in the future. What's going on right now is heightened exposure of policies that need to be changed before the next crop of our dwindling urban building stock meets the wrecking ball. It's good that this type of discussion is taking place on a regular basis. Such discussion 20 years ago, could have saved a LaVilla or a Brooklyn.
Yes, those are gone, but we still have several areas that need to be kept from becoming the next LaVillas and Brooklyns.
I am not misunderstanding you and realize you are stating facts and my comments were not directed to you. When I stated it was my opinion that 'some' spend too much time bemoaning the fact and all they bring to this site seem to be negativity. It reaches a point where that is just simple counter productive. Again this is not directed at you. I know you are much more balanced than most on here.
Gotcha. Yes, instead of bemoaning the past, we've got to harness that energy and utilize it to shape our future.
Gotcha
For instance, we can look into this Claude Nolan Building issue and see if something can't be done for it. For the library we could put our effort into finally getting some movement on the retail space.
I have a theory concerning the outstanding 60's 'remodeling' of buildings with great architecture like the Claude Nolan had. It seems like all of these 'altered for the worst' buildings have one thing in common, they went from buildings with nice large glass windows to fortresses. So were these many buildings across the country modified for security reasons? I can imagine in the 60's that it would take nothing more than a rock to break or vandalize those old buildings with large windows (esp if they used regular glass).
Quote from: DDC on April 18, 2013, 07:44:55 PM
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0743860000
This is the owner. Whatever that means. Anyone know anything about them?
937 MAIN STREET LLC
P O BOX 330108
ATLANTIC BEACH, FL 32233
Is this another situation like the Bostwick Building? Demolition by neglect?
Well he's located on the SS. So yes, he's another anti urban, good ol boy, country bumpkin. I can tell just by reading his address. This building is doomed, I'm sorry to say.
I believe the owner is Chris Hionides. He owns several buildings downtown and in Springfield. Several of the newer businesses like Underbelly, Cowork Jax, Chomp Chomp and Burro Bar are located in his buildings.
This is really strange... it's the city rather than the owner who's pushing to demolish this building?
Perhaps it has something to do with the Hogans Creek clean up. My guess is this parcel may be just as dirty as the creek and the old gas plant site across the street.
Isn't there a City-filed lawsuit against the Park View owners related to site cleanup?
The ownership situation on the buildings(Claude Nolan) is not encouraging.
I love this building, and agree that it has big updside as a loft conversion. This building and this location are crucial to Springfield's longterm viability, so I personally hope that it can be restored to look like the original and become a focal point of the rejuvinated Springfield.
^ I do, as well. Think it would be yet another epic mistake in razing our historic places.
I've read some people advocating for a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame." In my opinion, this site could be ideal for a museum/ hall of fame honoring southern rock and Jacksonville's contribution to music history. It sits directly on Confederate Park (I know the name has changed from Springfield Park), but what a fitting place for a museum that honors this unique piece of cultural history. If a project like this could be completed, concerts could be held in Confederate Park and directly across the street (where the Park View Inn used to be) would be a prime location for commercial/ mixed use hotel space. One draw to any city are museums. This could be a point that connects river attractions to the edge of Springfield. Just a thought...
Quote from: HangingMoth on April 23, 2013, 12:24:43 AM
I've read some people advocating for a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame." In my opinion, this site could be ideal for a museum/ hall of fame honoring southern rock and Jacksonville's contribution to music history. It sits directly on Confederate Park (I know the name has changed from Springfield Park), but what a fitting place for a museum that honors this unique piece of cultural history. If a project like this could be completed, concerts could be held in Confederate Park and directly across the street (where the Park View Inn used to be) would be a prime location for commercial/ mixed use hotel space. One draw to any city are museums. This could be a point that connects river attractions to the edge of Springfield. Just a thought...
It is a wonderful thought.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 18, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
Gotcha. Yes, instead of bemoaning the past, we've got to harness that energy and utilize it to shape our future.
Ditto
Quote from: Overstreet on April 23, 2013, 08:01:51 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 18, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
Gotcha. Yes, instead of bemoaning the past, we've got to harness that energy and utilize it to shape our future.
Ditto
Seems like "Reclaiming Jacksonville" to me.
Quote from: HangingMoth on April 23, 2013, 12:24:43 AM
I've read some people advocating for a "Southern Rock Hall of Fame." In my opinion, this site could be ideal for a museum/ hall of fame honoring southern rock and Jacksonville's contribution to music history. It sits directly on Confederate Park (I know the name has changed from Springfield Park), but what a fitting place for a museum that honors this unique piece of cultural history. If a project like this could be completed, concerts could be held in Confederate Park and directly across the street (where the Park View Inn used to be) would be a prime location for commercial/ mixed use hotel space. One draw to any city are museums. This could be a point that connects river attractions to the edge of Springfield. Just a thought...
Well I think itd be a great place for SCAD or a NYU satellite campus or maybe a unicorm factory. Thank you for the idea but there is not a shortage of ideas around town. Its making it come to life is the problem!
Coming too life takes money, financing and commitment. That's where many ideas of reusing structures all over town have fallen short.
^Thank you for that....my intentions are not to be just a daydreamer. I was under the impression that this was a forum to discuss topics. I only mentioned this idea because I had not seen it discussed before.
Also...do you mean 'unicorn' factory? I don't know what unicorm is.
Well I guess my soul hasn't totally been crushed, but I really enjoy living in Springfield. It is sad to see Main St. in such bad shape though.
IMHO the world could use a good unicorn factory.
Quote from: HangingMoth on April 23, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Well I guess my soul hasn't totally been crushed, but I really enjoy living in Springfield. It is sad to see Main St. in such bad shape though.
▲ All about the landlords on Main Street. Also, sent you a PM.
I guess as someone new to the neighborhood (not to Jacksonville) I can see the potential and possibilities as well as the progress that has been made. Growing up, north Jax was a place to be avoided. There are some shady areas and characters, but that can be found in any city. And those characters are not as scary as some would make them out to be. Springfield should (my head is still in the clouds) be the crown jewel of this city. If this never comes to fruition and Springfield never lives up to its "full" potential (no unicorn factory), I think I will still be happy to live here.
If you don't mind, what do you see as the biggest problem to development on Main St. And isn't there a new building between 4th and 5th in the works?
At hpc now. Commissioners instruct historic planners to begin investigating its potential as a landmark. If the owner is on board they need two of four criteria. But either way the historic planners feel it could meet that easily
Any updates on this?
HPC did approve the buildings for landmark status, not sure what the status is before City Council but usually they go along with HPC unless the owner has an issue with it.