Micro-lofts Fill Demand for Downtown Living
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2429646319_mxRbp5L-M.jpg)
Micro-lofts are a part of a very interesting urban housing trend trend catching on in other major cities. Downtown Vision's Katherine Hardwick wonders if Is Downtown Jacksonville ripe for micro-lofts?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-mar-micro-lofts-fill-demand-for-downtown-living
I think it would be succesful here. It would take a developer willing to take a leap of faith, but I really think they could do well.
Isn't City Place on Ashley St a similar set up?
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 28, 2013, 09:56:03 AM
I think it would be succesful here. It would take a developer willing to take a leap of faith, but I really think they could do well.
I disagree...they do best in markets where an average size 1bdr apartment is over $1000 a month (and that's the bottom end).
^^^^You're on the right track, but try markets where an avg size 1BR starts at over $3500/mo. The general consensus is that New York and Boston are really the only two markets that can provide demand for micro lofts in a material way. And in Boston we're talking a very small area. Even in SF, which is more expensive than Boston for renting, people are still used to at least getting around 600-800 SF for a 1BR in most cases. I currently live in 450 SF and I'm happy, wouldn't consider less (no need to).
Micro will not take off in Jax, ever. There is no reason. Micro is essentially 200-350 SF or less, technically speaking. Who the hell in Jax would consider that when they can get a luxurious 1,200 SF 2BR at many places for around a thousand bucks.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 28, 2013, 10:33:34 AM
Isn't City Place on Ashley St a similar set up?
No. City Place's units are much larger than the average micro-loft.
Simms, what kind of market exists in downtown Providence? Apparently, there's a micro-loft project underway there. Rental prices start at $550/month for spaces ranging between 225-450 square feet:
http://www.arcadeprovidence.com/micro-lofts/
These would definitely cause some interesting discussions when you consider they would be in competition with all the new regular apartments we saw in yesterday's blog!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 28, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
Simms, what kind of market exists in downtown Providence? Apparently, there's a micro-loft project underway there. Rental prices start at $550/month for spaces ranging between 225-450 square feet:
http://www.arcadeprovidence.com/micro-lofts/
I could definitely see a market for a place of that size for that price in Jax. It would definitely appeal to all the people who get a larger place with a roommate they don't necessarily want, or else sacrifice amenities they do want for a cheaper pad. I know quite a few people like that.
^Which starts to get back to the question posed by DVI's Katherine Hardwick. Could something like this be a suitable use for a building with small footprints like the Florida Life or Bisbee?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1493784612_hNxmqb9-M.jpg)
I still feel there might be a market but it would have to be really cheap to attract folks and I am not sure you can work those numbers. Just look at all the artists filling up Cork. If they had a cheap place stay close by it might work. That being said we need more affordable downtown apartments and less "Luxury".
Quote from: thelakelander on March 28, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
Simms, what kind of market exists in downtown Providence? Apparently, there's a micro-loft project underway there. Rental prices start at $550/month for spaces ranging between 225-450 square feet:
http://www.arcadeprovidence.com/micro-lofts/
Seriously, I was going to type a lengthy response. I've worked on a class A garden style deal in suburban Raleigh, I've worked on mixed-use portfolio in Back Bay that had micro units, I've worked on 2 condo projects in NYC, and now I work on stuff out here in CA. I've seen a good bit and pay a good bit of attention to trends (most of my firm's multifamily including the garden apartments I worked on were ground up).
Nice to read these fluffy articles written by people who aren't seeing the proformas or leaving out details such as complete subsidization (as occurs in bankrupt cities such as Providence). It's not reality. Micro is not new for NYC, it's a collusion of the industry to try to push a trend so that developers, architects, etc make money on new developments. To put it bluntly. It's basically just relegated to NYC and maybe very central Boston (like Back Bay). It won't be going anywhere else anytime soon. Even in Chicago renters expect space, LoL. Even here in SF where there is some limited micro, anything under 400 SF is atypical and unacceptable and unnecessary.
Next.
PS: These people need to get into the private development business occasionally...gotta love architects and their weird thinking. If Jax had BUSINESS and stuff going on DT, I bet you the highest and best use of the Trio is as a boutique hotel under a flag such as Kimpton (which undoubtedly will never come to Jax). You could also do office there really well. Apts? I'm just not seeing it so much. The one narrow building is really going to be a challenge without a ground up adjoining tower next door.
To answer your question, Providence is one of the most irrelevant cities in the country at this point. Nobody cares what happens there...it's not a "market". The bloated government drives everything, tries everything, etc, but the city is not in good shape. Jax is more of a relevant market and probably presents more development or acquisition opportunity than Providence. The renter pool there is different, everything is different. Not a comp for Jax in ANY way whatsoever. I don't think there is any translation between what goes on there and what goes on in Jax.
QuoteWhy the hell is this woman posing this question because she read about micro units in NYC??? Is she smoking crack?
First off, don't be d!ck towards someone that is simply trying to start a conversation about a long abandoned buidling downtown. It's nice to see DVI being more proactive recently.
Second, I have to agree with simms on principal as it relates to the hyper local example of the Florida Life Building. I don't think there is a market for the kind of rents required to break even on that building. Your rehab costs are going to be pretty high (probably around $18 sq ft). You'd have to subsidize the development pretty heavily (the $9mm just allocated to DIA won't cut it).
The thing I disliked about Providence is that it is in Rhode Island.
If I am going to be limited to 300sf it will have wheels on it and electric slide outs.
^^^I've had a stressful day...just took it out on an innocent, and Providence, RI. I do think it's an example of the overall disconnect in Jax, though, that someone would even pose the question for that market. Again, where is the common sense?
1) What is the reasoning for micro apartments? Many, land pricing and market fundamental based
2) Are they even new? No
3) What markets are they in? Basically just NYC and central Boston
4) Do any of the above indicate a reasoning to conclude that micro is something that should be looked at for Jax? No
In terms of development strategies, urban planning, what works and what doesn't, most of the best and brightest strategies evolved from those learned and practiced for sometimes hundreds of years in NYC and older NE cities/European/Asian cities have come to be in Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Dallas, Austin, etc. They have learned to choose which ideas and concepts to tackle and formulate to their individual sunbelt autocentric sprawly markets. Jax should at this point just try to copy whatever these cities are doing. LoL. Just copy. What is working for and happening in Manhattan is not easily translatable to Jax, but more easily translatable to say Atlanta, which in turn is more translatable to Jax.
Common sense.
And Providence - if Jax is the most tax averse city and big government averse city and public program averse city in the country and Providence is just about the opposite, why on earth would anyone in Jax look to learn from Providence when every takeaway is basically how the government can spend money and create something? Jax needs to learn how to deal with 100% market based fundamentals, metrics, and strategies because it ain't going to transform into a city that experiments with taxpayer money, especially on micro apartments downtown!
Quote from: stephendare on March 28, 2013, 01:44:31 PM
Its ironic that the pressure for space has basically created a return to a style of Rooming House, A single building with boarders occupying basically a single room for maximum rental revenue. Its less efficient I think, the only sidereal benefit is a higher level of privacy and far more opportunities for indoor plumbing, but basically its the same thing.
Actually, the idea of a real rooming house or boarding house has never really died. It did evolve though. The current bed and breakfasts, for example, are the new higher end equavalent. I agree that if you are going to be living is such a small space, you may as well get the benifits of a rooming or boarding house.
Actually I think that there could be a market in the near future for a modern version of a Boarding house. Nice sized rooms, very small kitchenettes (for microwaving stuff), small baths ( the old rooming houses had shared bathrooms - the current crop of us doesn't like that much anymore though) and a larger common area complete with a hostess that also cooks the meals, makes sure you clean your room and generally plays Mom. Food would be many, many steps above McDonalds. The other guests would often become your friends and meeting in the living room for a game or special movie would be something looked forward to. Probably all for about $200.00 to $250.00 a week, maybe less. Too bad it would be illegal all over Jacksonville. (Zoning)
^^^Sounds like a hostel. If you're city has tons of hostels, there might be demand for micro unit rentals, but not necessarily. Seems to be a higher mutual relation, but again DC, SF, Chicago, and Philly have tons of hostels, but not much demand for cramped permanent living conditions.
wouldn't be enough demand here for those until downtown is vibrant for at least 16 hours a day.
I visited Providence in the late '90's and it had tons of buzz about turning around it's DT back then. It looked successful and vibrant to me, with Department stores and anything else you would expect to see in a bustling DT. Has it fallen on hard times since?
As for the government subsidies, the project listed only seems to be getting a 12 year freeze on the property tax on the improvements. That is not excessive compared to some deals Jax has made (11 E., Carling, etc.)
Downtown Providence appeared to be decent in 2008. However, I don't know much about the city's economic structure or how most of the redevelopment was funded. Here are a few pics from my only visit to Providence, which was brief (probably less than 3 hours).
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5988-p1120388.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5976-p1120335.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5979-p1120355.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5987-p1120357.JPG)
I heard a story on NPR teh other day about how the whole state of Rhode Island is struggling....they have been outsourcing their young talent to Connecticut and Massachusetts for too long.
Seems to me that one pro/con for Providence is its proximity to Boston....that means folks who want an urban lifestyle but can't afford Bostoncan choose Providence and commute (much like Baltimore and Washington)....the down side is those folks split their time and money between the two states
Quote from: jaxlore on March 28, 2013, 11:33:17 AM
I still feel there might be a market but it would have to be really cheap to attract folks and I am not sure you can work those numbers. Just look at all the artists filling up Cork. If they had a cheap place stay close by it might work. That being said we need more affordable downtown apartments and less "Luxury".
I completely agree, unfortunately, those who are in control are only trying to redevelop Downtown for "their kind of people", which are the rich GOB country bumpkins who don't even want to set foot in an urban area, much less live in one.
Affordable is a blasphemous word for them.
One of the major characteristics for a big city is in the diversity of its people, the very people that JAX leaders are trying to exclude.
It would be cheaper for the developers if they cut out all of the frills, like the Manhattan style walk-ups. Simply omit the granite counter tops, the dishwashers, washers and driers can be located on the first floor and closed off to non tenants. And if the city made it "ok to be a pedestrian", there would be no need to provide parking either.
But as it stands today, none of this is possible. That's why people from the Northeast and West Coast that live here now, and have not abandoned their customs, should run for council. But act like a GOB fool during the campaign in order to get elected.
Isnt there a plan for the Ambassador hotel to be developed into affordable housing?
Quote from: urbaknight on March 29, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on March 28, 2013, 11:33:17 AM
I still feel there might be a market but it would have to be really cheap to attract folks and I am not sure you can work those numbers. Just look at all the artists filling up Cork. If they had a cheap place stay close by it might work. That being said we need more affordable downtown apartments and less "Luxury".
I completely agree, unfortunately, those who are in control are only trying to redevelop Downtown for "their kind of people", which are the rich GOB country bumpkins who don't even want to set foot in an urban area, much less live in one.
Affordable is a blasphemous word for them.
One of the major characteristics for a big city is in the diversity of its people, the very people that JAX leaders are trying to exclude.
It would be cheaper for the developers if they cut out all of the frills, like the Manhattan style walk-ups. Simply omit the granite counter tops, the dishwashers, washers and driers can be located on the first floor and closed off to non tenants. And if the city made it "ok to be a pedestrian", there would be no need to provide parking either.
But as it stands today, none of this is possible. That's why people from the Northeast and West Coast that live here now, and have not abandoned their customs, should run for council. But act like a GOB fool during the campaign in order to get elected.
It isn't simply greed alone. A project has to make economic sense (ie a profit). So much of the old buildings that could have been rehabbed into housing are gone. Building new from the ground up is expensive, especially if the dirt is expensive too.
Quote from: John P on March 29, 2013, 01:57:39 PM
Isnt there a plan for the Ambassador hotel to be developed into affordable housing?
That's what they say, but come on, it would be too perfect too urban. My prediction is unfortunate but nonetheless, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!
Don't get me wrong, I really want the hotel rebuilt; And I would be all too happy to eat my words. I'm very hungry and some negative words seem very appetizing right about now.
We've blasted our building stock that would have been ideal for affordable housing into smithereens. To be honest, if you want affordable, it's not going to happen in the core of the Northbank or Southbank without major public incentives. Your best bet is on the peripheral or in adjacent neighborhoods, which is another reason why improving mass transit connectivity between downtown and adjacent neighborhoods should be a high priority of downtown revitalization efforts.
There are plenty of places that could work for something like this. Though this is one of those ideas that should be thought of in terms of how the concept would work in Jacksonville's environment specifically. "Micro" by New York standards wouldn't work here, but a small affordable apartment for our context would be attractive to many people. If you could get, say, a 400-500 square foot 1 bedroom for $5-600 in the middle of downtown, I know of many people who'd take up that offer. As for incentives, well, any housing downtown will require incentives, that's not a reason not to do it.
I believe the two recent downtown housing projects that didn't require incentives were Metropolitan Lofts and City Place. Both were buildings that were easily adaptable and on the Northbank's peripheral. Unfortunately, outside of the old City Hall/Courthouse Annex (which several want to demolish) we don't have many easily adaptable structures remaining.
Also, I'm not saying incentives aren't a reason to not do affordable housing in downtown. I'm just stating the fact that it's not market rate given the landscape we've created that we're now forced to play with. However, I'm the guy who believes we should consider paying people to live in and near downtown. Incentives aren't a killer for me. I think they are needed across the board.
Quote from: jaxlore on March 28, 2013, 11:33:17 AM
I still feel there might be a market but it would have to be really cheap to attract folks and I am not sure you can work those numbers. Just look at all the artists filling up Cork. If they had a cheap place stay close by it might work. That being said we need more affordable downtown apartments and less "Luxury".
I agree with the "more affordable and less luxury" sentiment. While a micro-loft might be a hard sell in our city of sprawl, we have some demonstrated needs that could be filled. For example, Jacksonville has very few live/work rental spaces. The Lofts in San Marco are the only example that comes to mind. As someone who has a studio at CoRK, I can think of more than a few people who would pay to live in a less refined/more affordable version of this kind of mixed use living space if it was available.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 29, 2013, 02:06:06 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on March 29, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on March 28, 2013, 11:33:17 AM
I still feel there might be a market but it would have to be really cheap to attract folks and I am not sure you can work those numbers. Just look at all the artists filling up Cork. If they had a cheap place stay close by it might work. That being said we need more affordable downtown apartments and less "Luxury".
I completely agree, unfortunately, those who are in control are only trying to redevelop Downtown for "their kind of people", which are the rich GOB country bumpkins who don't even want to set foot in an urban area, much less live in one.
Affordable is a blasphemous word for them.
One of the major characteristics for a big city is in the diversity of its people, the very people that JAX leaders are trying to exclude.
It would be cheaper for the developers if they cut out all of the frills, like the Manhattan style walk-ups. Simply omit the granite counter tops, the dishwashers, washers and driers can be located on the first floor and closed off to non tenants. And if the city made it "ok to be a pedestrian", there would be no need to provide parking either.
But as it stands today, none of this is possible. That's why people from the Northeast and West Coast that live here now, and have not abandoned their customs, should run for council. But act like a GOB fool during the campaign in order to get elected.
It isn't simply greed alone. A project has to make economic sense (ie a profit). So much of the old buildings that could have been rehabbed into housing are gone. Building new from the ground up is expensive, especially if the dirt is expensive too.
It is greed because thats what led to affordable housing being destroyed in the first place. Thats the root of why it doesn't make "economic sense" anymore. If they would have left what we had alone, taken care of it, then we'd have it. And plenty of it. You could make the same argument why making pedestrian friendly streets & bike networks doesn't make "economic sense" these days. On its face, you'd be correct in some ways. But you have to ask WHY & look deeper into why it wouldn't. Same reason. Basically greed, trying to squeeze people every which way they know how & force them into a certain way of living. The fact that we've came so far in the other direction with these things is in fact why it doesn't make economic sense now & why everyone has to give up half their paycheck, take out loans (on homes & eduction), etc to just live some kind of decent existence. Its like this for a reason. Same with energy, food & transportation. Don't think for a minute we couldn't be a hell of a lot more energy independent if we really wanted to (check Germany) & have more transportation options (destruction of the streetcars, sprawl promotion & building everything around the automobile).
As far as micro living in Jax, I like the idea & if I were single I'd do it in a second. I lived in a 600SF apartment for 3 years & was just fine. And an even smaller one in DC (with a wife & 2 dogs) & was just fine too. But mostly because I was never home besides for a few times a day coming/going & to sleep. Thats because I was always out on the streets, going to shops, taking the Metro to work, having about a million different places I could explore by just walking out my door on foot/bike. That obviously doesn't exist in Jax & prob why you won't be seeing this any time soon (and for the reasons I mentioned in my rant above).
Same small apartment living experience here. Sometimes when I consider all that I'm obligated to maintain now, I just think about the simplicity of those living situations and miss them. Pee hit on a great seed for why micro-apartments should be considered for downtown.
People in larger homes nest or borrow. Nesting today allows you to get everything right at home. From cable tv, wii, netflix, kindles, computers, home gyms, gourmet kitchens there is really not much of a reason to leave the house or apartment after work except to restock the fridge. But, those bigger houses and apartments allow for something important to this discussion. They allow for a significant other. Once that happens, you don't even need to seek outside companionship.
Those small apartments on the other hand are not conducive to packing it full of distractions or even a partner. Most anyone interested in such a living situation would most likely be single. And that's good because single's mingle. A Florida Life building full of young, bored residents would naturally begin foraging to find where they could get their needs met. Undoubtedly, the bars and restaurants on Bay would benefit as might the shops at the Landing. How many 500-600 sf apartments might fit in one of the trios? 200? 300? not quite the 10K person downtown threshold by itself, but not a bad bite at the goal either.
The taller trio buildings are pretty narrow. The Bisbee is roughly 94' deep by 45' wide and the Florida Life is 85' deep by 28' wide. Assuming you wanted micro units on the upper floors in the Florida Life, you'd only get 40 or so at 500 square feet. The Bisbee is larger in width, so take out circulation space and you'd be lucky to get 60 units between 400 to 500 square feet. Combined, you're only looking at 100 units assuming you also want street level retail or common amenities for residents.
Let's clear the air about micro apartments because I don't think most of you understand how small a *micro* apartment really is. Below is what I live in (slightly reconfigured but should be same size).
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/studiofpa_zpsf19632c6.jpg)
This is by no means a micro apartment. This is a *very* good size studio in most cities and a really efficient floorplan (plus I have a balcony, which outside of the Sunbelt is actually rare, even for luxury condos which are all glassed in...I store my bike on my balcony rather than inside or in the basement, a very nice perk). I see myself living here for a while, especially because it's rent controlled and the average one bedroom in my area is now $3495.
Below is a micro apartment:
(http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/14/13/36/3192726/5/628x471.jpg)
Quote
Patrick Kennedy in the living area of his SmartSpace apartment, the sofa turns into a bed. Developer Patrick Kennedy has built a prototype micro-apartment in a Berkeley storage warehouse.
Photo: Brant Ward, The Chronicle
Read more: SF Supervisors Back Micro Apartments (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supervisors-back-micro-apartments-4055493.php#ixzz2P8evdV7O)
The article mentions that estimated rents would be $1200-$1500 for apartments that are 160-220 ft in size. The concern is that this could push rents for larger units even higher based on a PSF rent, the metric investors/landlords use for determining market. SF has capped the number of micro apartments to be built in the city for the time being at 375 in new construction and will wait to see the effect of them before allowing more. The smallest allowable apartment in CA is 160 ft.
Now, does anyone still see this happening or fulfilling some demand in Jacksonville? When I say that truly the only city that needs, has and wants micro apartments is NYC, I am not kidding.
QuoteNow, does anyone still see this happening or fulfilling some demand in Jacksonville?
Not at a large noticeable scale. People complain about City Place's units being too small. Their smallest studios are 450sf.
(http://www.cityplacejacksonville.com/img/fp01.jpg)
Studios at City Place can be leased for $550/month. 1 Bedrooms are available from $650.
Currently studio options are as follows:
The Strand: 651 SF ($1175-$1300)
11 East: 585-640 SF ($755-$920)
The Carling: 470 SF ($715-$880)
Metropolitan Lofts: 885 SF ($995)
CityPlace Apartments: 450 SF ($550)
I couldn't find any other core neighborhood studios, but I really really like those Metropolitan Lofts! Surely Jax has potential for more stuff like that (these are *large* lofts, not micro apt comps). CityPlace Apts is definitely not ideal to me. To me the best test for studios is the Carling. It's the only building with market rates for studios that are normal studio size (400-500 ft). I wonder if there is a waiting list.
Floorplan:
(http://www.thecarling11east.com/library/v4/helpers/getimage.asp?data=McP7KhWpl0KWL0UVkjRPdQHOLBWpL0ZtlQAS3JxVdpFtLBWRLJCQKh-UdpP5LpCsKhWpL0ZtlQAS3JxRKaKRKcKnLBvvFh1W1g)
My experience has been that the starving artist still wants space. You won't find starving artists in Manhattan, the inner part of SF, Boston, DC, etc. They want cool space for cheap. I could picture them in Metropolitan Lofts since it's so cheap, offers expansive cool space with high ceilings and views. Artists are already priced out of Brooklyn and certainly Billyburg, so the extent of Manhattan level prices is becoming more far reaching than ever. In SF, the Tenderloin is one of the worst areas, is a real urban slum/skid row, but studios/small 1BRs still go for $1500-$2000 and you have to step over sleeping heroin addicts on your way down the stairs from your apt. You would think artists would be there for its relative cheapness...but it doesn't offer space and it's still not cheap enough.
You're micro apartments are for single 20-30 year olds who live in such an expensive city that even with their big city salary cannot afford a decent studio. These are entry level analysts, bankers, marketing/PR associates, young associates at "smidgling" law firms only making $100K, which is not enough to live well even for singles in Manhattan, etc. I don't think Jax is at that level or has that dilemna.