Jacksonville: The Next Detroit?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/MURDER_GRAPH_JAX.jpg)
What a shocking statistic to have learned recently while New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg was in town as part of his national convention on curbing violent crime and reducing illegal guns. Here it is: Jacksonville has only 10% of the population of NYC, yet experiences 25% of their murders! Wow. It's no wonder that Sheriff John Rutherford recently indicated the city was teetering on the brink of lawlessness, stating If we don't turn this thing around, we could be the next Detroit.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/734
Wholly crap! Those statistics are truly frightening ???
A few thoughts for the peanut gallery:
1.) Some interesting data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
2.) A re-direction of police resources from low to high-crime areas sounds great at the surface, but actual implementation is quite a challenge. I think most would be in favor of shifting resources from low-crime to high-crime zipcodes, for example - provided that the resources being shifted aren't from ***THEIR *** zip code!
3.) New York's mayor gets to choose their police commissioner. Our mayor doesn't. New York's mayor gets to choose their schools CEO. Our mayor doesn't. That's a big big big constraint on our mayor's (whether it's Peyton today, Delaney yesterday or ??? tomorrow) ability to be a true force for change in either of these large institutions. These powers are intentionally separated and all the mayor can do (I beleive) is simply determine the funding level for the JSO - and that's about it, besides coordinating other programs that complement law enforcement.
In my opinion, the only way we can prevent crime is to provide better education and job opportunities for people. More police officers aren't going to prevent crime if people are living in poverty and don't see a better way out than to steal and sell drugs.
Quote from: fightingosprey07 on March 11, 2008, 09:06:30 AM
In my opinion, the only way we can prevent crime is to provide better education and job opportunities for people. More police officers aren't going to prevent crime if people are living in poverty and don't see a better way out than to steal and sell drugs.
Ok, are you freaking KIDDING me???? Jacksonville has been notorious for funneling money into the public education system. If the crooks WANT education, it's there. The fact of the matter is, the people comitting the crimes don't give a damn about learning anything but how to get away with more crime and 'earn' money without doing any actual work. It's not the poverty that causes these people to be this way, it's the people that are this way that cause the poverty.
Just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to live in filfth, kill people and rob and rape others. It's not that these people don't know any better, it's that they enjoy being who they are and they have a strong sense of resentment towards those who want something better for themselves. If they were to get their wish and have the money they think they're entitled to, they would be nothing more than a 50-Cent or Tupac, engaged in the same tribal warfare and thoughtless killing on a grander and more publicized scale....and have a record deal.
^ I generally agree w/ second_pancake
Also, the comparison between Jax and Detroit is somewhat valid for murder rate, but that's about it. The root cause of Detroit's major woes is that it's a dying city that is scaring away productive memebers of society with a high tax burden. Say what you will about Jax, but it still has high growth, and very reasonable taxes relative to much of the rest of the country.
In Riverside a few different groups of neighbors have formed crime watch groups, and we're hoping this is a good way to reduce serious crime in the long-run. The group closest to RADO's office, which we help organize, meets tonight at 6:30pm at 881 Stockton Street.
Feel free to email or call for more information: 381.0950; jmccharen at radocdc dot org
This is NOT TO SUGGEST we have nothing to work on, we could make our city even better. But true to form, we find a single problem area and blow it up so big it makes international headlines. Why do we keep shooting ourselves in the foot (pun intended). Here are just a couple of off the wall samples I worked on this morning. This uses the Uniform Crime Index of crimes per 100,000 people as a measure. Let me tell you, if you think we look bad then you haven't seen Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, Nashville, Washington or Detroit... DETROIT? God all mighty as my witness, you need a jewelers loop to find our numbers next to theirs!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Jacksonville/JaxDaytonaCrime.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Jacksonville/JaxFtLauderdalecrime.jpg)
Ocklawaha
here's a good site to compare crime stats: http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm
We aren't going to become the next Detroit, but we do hold the crime capital trophy for the state. If you got to FDLE and do the search for crime per capita we are well above Miami-Dade, Orange, Hillsborough, Palm Beach, Pinellas and all those counties have higher populations than we do. That is not a very glowing endorsement of our Sheriff. And our stats are in light of the recent revelation that his budget has increased over 100 million dollars in just five years http://www.news4jax.com/news/15307228/detail.html
Whats the solution? I think perhaps some pro-active policing as opposed to re-active policing. I happen to live in a zip that is considered "high crime" do I ever see JSO? rarely. Out of their car? only when they are setting up crime tape.
i with fightingosprey07 on this. You can bring the crime rate down with enforcement, but the only way to keep it down is to change the neighborhoods through better education, better role models, better job opportunities. If a kid gets railroaded through high school and gets out barely being able to read, has no one to tell him there are opportunities out there for them, what do you expect them to do. I do think the Mayors reading program is one that will pay off, but in reality the school systems are the ones who are not doing the job. Guidance counselor's at high schools are a joke. If a kid is not going to college then we should have job counselors to help them become productive members of society. Kids spend more time worrying about the clothes they where then what they can do in the future. I could go on for hours about this. But as a society we need to start caring more about people and less about material b$.
Fort Lauderdale and Daytona have a large number of tourists passing through every year that are not included in the population numbers. This may skew their crime ratios... at least if I were mayor of Daytona that's what I'd say.
If education was the problem, every city would have as much or more. We have several high schools rated with the best of them, in fact a couple that are the best of them. The blame cannot be placed on schools, it's the parenting and the nonchalance of the local leaders. Everyone from the mayor to city council. When you have politicians not wanting a children's program in your area because it's a white guy working on it, you have some serious issues as a community.
Stephen, would you care to elaborate on the professional criminals in Springfield? Are we talking a burglary crew or something more of the white-collar variety?
I don't think we'll get as bad as Detroit, maybe New Orleans, but not Detroit. Michigan's whole economy is slumping because of Detroit, and it is proven.
Quote from: jaxlore on March 11, 2008, 12:16:48 PM
i with fightingosprey07 on this. You can bring the crime rate down with enforcement, but the only way to keep it down is to change the neighborhoods through better education, better role models, better job opportunities. If a kid gets railroaded through high school and gets out barely being able to read, has no one to tell him there are opportunities out there for them, what do you expect them to do. I do think the Mayors reading program is one that will pay off, but in reality the school systems are the ones who are not doing the job. Guidance counselor's at high schools are a joke. If a kid is not going to college then we should have job counselors to help them become productive members of society. Kids spend more time worrying about the clothes they where then what they can do in the future. I could go on for hours about this. But as a society we need to start caring more about people and less about material b$.
Well, you got the last part of your comment right. But, how is providing greater education through schools going to prevent them from caring about clothes? It won't. In fact, putting all those kids together in one place where there are cliques and various social groups, only exaserbates the appearence issue. Kids act out and do things, sometimes illegal things, to either get attention or to fit into a certain group they want to be a part of. You can't "teach" this behavior out of them. They're kids, more importantly, teenagers, and that's just what they do. It's the parents responsibility to manage just how far their need to be a part of a social group, or the need to express themselves is taken.
Regarding job counselors, school is there to give kids the tools they need...basic tools, to survive. It's not there to teach them a trade or provide an apprenticeship. That's what college and specialty schools, that are funded privately, not by taxpayers, are for. You are not, nor should you ever be, guaranteed a job or job placement out of highschool. You should now have the tools to fend for yourself, so do it. Finding a job and creating a life requires, among other things, thought and ambition...a desire to do something and not rely on others to provide things to or for you. When you are taught a sense of entitlement, you will never work to do anything with your life and will only feel as if others have let you down which will create resentment and hatred, thus leading to a life of crime, or a life filled with addictions.
Let me ask you this, if YOU had job placement and job education provided to you in your school and were provided a place to work right out of highschool, do you think you would feel good about yourself today? Do you think you'd be more successful, equally successful, or less? Would you look to others to continue to 'help' you along your life's journey, or would you work hard to make it on your own?
Pancake, you're right that a lot of money has been dumped into education to improve it, but more money won't fix the problem. You're also right that the education is there if the student wants it, but a good teacher is able to make the students want to learn. Right now, the best teachers don't want to teach in the bad schools, so it only makes the situation worse.
it is a social responsibility problem at its heart. you could give a million dollars to each troubled, inner-city family and it won't make them care for and disclipline their child. in fact, it probably would have the opposite effect. more money for "education" is not the problem. i'm not sure there really is a solution to make parents be parents??
But can you blame good teachers for not going to bad schools. The problem starts in the home. When you have parents who dont care, that will rub off on the children and its an endless cycle.
The problem starts before "home". The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves. It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 03:35:23 PM
The problem starts before "home". The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves. It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.
Except that the inner city pathologies did not even really exist 50 years ago. All bad statistics (crime, high school drop out rate, out of wedlock births, etc) were better 50 years ago than now. So, what has happened in the intervening years to change this? Well, first you had the liberals come in and say that it is your body so you can do whatever you want with it and they also polluted the culture through movies, television and other media thereby encouraging sexual experimentation. Then the government came in and said that they would be the new daddy and provide for the children of out of wedlock relationships. Next, with children decoupled from fathers, the now barely supervised kids were left to their own devices and were influenced instead by the increasingly filthy culture (see rap music, misogyny, etc). Add to this less community policing and less effective early intervention by law enforcement and families to nip trouble in the bud and you have a vicious downward spiral into anarchy.
1. We need more police. If we didn't already have problems we may be able to make our current force work. We are behind however and current economic conditions will make it worse.
2. Reallocation to problem areas will help. Higher response times in calmer areas is hard but you have to prioritize.
3. Give Police officers property tax breaks and low interest loans to buy homes(they reside in) in or near problem areas to increase presence and sense of community.
Quote from: RiversideGator on March 11, 2008, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 03:35:23 PM
The problem starts before "home". The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves. It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.
Except that the inner city pathologies did not even really exist 50 years ago. All bad statistics (crime, high school drop out rate, out of wedlock births, etc) were better 50 years ago than now. So, what has happened in the intervening years to change this? Well, first you had the liberals come in and say that it is your body so you can do whatever you want with it and they also polluted the culture through movies, television and other media thereby encouraging sexual experimentation. Then the government came in and said that they would be the new daddy and provide for the children of out of wedlock relationships. Next, with children decoupled from fathers, the now barely supervised kids were left to their own devices and were influenced instead by the increasingly filthy culture (see rap music, misogyny, etc). Add to this less community policing and less effective early intervention by law enforcement and families to nip trouble in the bud and you have a vicious downward spiral into anarchy.
I'm not going to jump into whether the cause is the fault of liberals or conservatives, but the failing of the inner city is only a result of failing of society as a whole. Crime, out-of wedlock births, fatherless homes, etc. are up across the board. However, when you mix poverty into the situation its always going to get worse.
There is no secret or one thing to solve this problem. Its going to take a mixture of things from several sources (ex. better police enforcement, schools, changing the local physical environment, work opportunities, etc.) along with the will of those in these conditions to want to change for the better.
Quote3. Give Police officers property tax breaks and low interest loans to buy homes(they reside in) in or near problem areas to increase presence and sense of community.
I'd like to see the implementation of a tax abatement program for any resident who is willing to move to the inner city because some incentive is needed if we want things to change. Being around people who care about their community and property that can serve as good visible role models to their neighbors can go a long way in dealing with many of the problems our inner cities face today.
I have a question.
I am from Gainesville, a small town that has (3) police forces: Alachua County Sheriff's Office, City of Gainesville Police, and University of Florida Police. Now, for a city the size of Gainesville, that's an awful lot of overlapping police jurisdiction.
So my question is, do you think the fact that Jacksonville has one police department for every square inch of Duval County MAY in fact hinder their effectiveness? With Gainesville as an example, each police force focuses on their area of jurisdiction, whether it's campus, the city limits or rural outlying areas. In Jacksonville, that obviously can't happen since there's no one but the JPO.
It just seems to me that , in a city that covers this much area and has so many poor and crime ridden neighborhoods, there needs to be more than one police department. It just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't think so. Cities like Indianapolis and Nashville would have crime rates similar to Jacksonville's if consolidation was the issue. By the same token, the Detroits, Garys, East St. Louis and Camden, NJs of the world aren't consolidated and have crime levels well above Jacksonville's.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 03:35:23 PM
The problem starts before "home". The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves. It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.
good point...i agree with this.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 04:06:43 PM
I'd like to see the implementation of a tax abatement program for any resident who is willing to move to the inner city because some incentive is needed if we want things to change. Being around people who care about their community and property that can serve as good visible role models to their neighbors can go a long way in dealing with many of the problems our inner cities face today.
this is true, but it really depends on if the people in the neighborhood want change. well sure the nice ones don't want crime, but then obviously they aren't commiting the crimes, and criminals aren't going to look up to 'model citizens' (unless you talk to them at a young age, or something...). they may see them as a threat to their 'empire of crime' (excuse my conspiracy theory), many people don't want new guys in their neighborhoods unless they want new targets.
my dickens-like ponderings aside, you never know until you try i guess
big brother big sister programmes are extremely helpful with kids who are missing parents.
one thing i have noticed is a somewhat heightened glamourization of the world and life of crime by rap(not all rap). hip hop used to be a way to express oneself and talk about real stuff and try to make change. rap, is money hoes cars clothes (duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn) and guns. crime has always been somewhat glamourized, but not so much as has been seen lately. people that listen to hardcore violent rap (and other genres for that matter(excuse my persecution)) have a violent arrogant aire, and i know you can't censor artists, but i wish something could be done.
more police funding can't solve the problem, and even though i would like to believe so higher penalties won't solve the problem- both just make sneakier criminals. this is just one of those things. social class, racial/cultural, and religious conflicts will always be the source of problems sadly, so i suppose (like lakelander said) being a good example is the best we can do. giving the people reason to believe that there is no reason to want to be criminal would be great, but unfortunately crime pays.
you can't completely stop crime without creepy 1984-like tactics; national registry, cameras....thought police....
Quotethis is true, but it really depends on if the people in the neighborhood want change. well sure the nice ones don't want crime, but then obviously they aren't commiting the crimes, and criminals aren't going to look up to 'model citizens' (unless you talk to them at a young age, or something...). they may see them as a threat to their 'empire of crime' (excuse my conspiracy theory), many people don't want new guys in their neighborhoods unless they want new targets.
Other than enhancing the physical environment (ex. programs like tax abatement to repopulate these neighborhoods with hard working citizens, etc.), which in turn could lead to the enchancement of the social environment, throwing money at these problems won't solve them.
I believe many of our social problems are the result of things that happened over several years and will take us years to overcome. It may be too late for today's generation, but its not for tomorrow's. Change a process that needs to have some impact in people at an early age. If you want people to have the will to change, then those values need to be installed at a very early age, imo.
reednavy - not sure you want to get as bad as New Orleans, they led the US in murder rate for several years prior to Katrina. Actually, that may be our solution, lets have a hurricane.
I do not have a clue as to what the solution is, but throwing more cops on the street is not going to stop anything. Crime is a reactive event for the police, a crime happens, the police are called. You put 2 cops in the place of 1, the crime moves to were there is now only 1 cop.
Also, a 40% drop out rate in Duval County schools is not helping the problem.
More money for schools and police? HELL NO! How about holding the leaders of this city's law enforcement and educational systems accountable. Jax needs to tell its city leaders to get off their redneck asses and put the corrupt political ways aside. WE WANT RESULTS OR WE WILL REPLACE YOU, PERIOD! - but then again, when 90% of the city hates Payton and only 10% show up to the polls during his reelection, that is not likely to happen now is it?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 04:06:43 PMI'm not going to jump into whether the cause is the fault of liberals or conservatives, but the failing of the inner city is only a result of failing of society as a whole. Crime, out-of wedlock births, fatherless homes, etc. are up across the board. However, when you mix poverty into the situation its always going to get worse.
The point is that crime, out of wedlock births, etc. are the symptoms of a larger problem - many people in our society from all walks of life do not adhere to the traditional norms and they suffer as a result. There are practical as well as moral reasons why a girl should not have a child before she gets married. One person is simply less financially and physically able to care for a child and a child needs a father figure in his/her lives also. This leads to poverty just as sure as does a lack of education. In fact, take 2 people who get married, both obey the law, and dont drink or use drugs, stay married and work and they will not be poor even if they have just high school degrees (barring disability or something like that). It really is as simple as that.
I think part of the problem is the paternalistic attitude many people have towards the poor. The truth is they are mostly rational people who respond to stimuli like anyone else. Treat them as such. If you want more out of wedlock births, for example, then give special treatment to those mothers and benefits and then have society tell them it is normal. If you want less of it, you give them no aid, take away their kids if they cannot care for them and put them in foster care, and have society stigmatize illegitimacy again. This works for all races and all people in any era, I promise. It is a simple rule of economics: if you want more of something, subsidize it; if you want less of something, tax it.
I agree that throwing money at the situation will not help it. However, neither will turning our backs to it. I don't have all the answers, but I do believe changing the physical environment can improve overall conditions in the long run. The key is to find a way to naturally change that environment.
Lake: I think we tend to think of changing the built environment because that is what we are most interested in (notwithstanding my current profession). But I think the truth is the changes must take place in the heart. People need to understand what is proper behavior and act accordingly. No amount of money or new housing will make people act honorably. There are plenty of rich dirtbags and plenty of poor saints. I have met many of each.
BTW, regarding the inner city problems, I recommend reading Walter Williams, who is a brilliant black economist who often writes on the issues which face the black community. He has a different take on things. Here is one of his columns on the topic:
QuoteIs Politics The Way?
by Walter Williams (November 3, 2004)
Black politicians and the civil rights establishment take it as an act of faith that progress for black people requires racial politics and government programs. How about examining this vision with a few simple, common-sense questions?
Whether you're black, white or polka dot, in order to take advantage of opportunities, you must be prepared. A large part of that preparation is to get a decent K-12 education. In order for children to do well in school, there are some minimum requirements that must be met. Someone must make them do their homework, see to it that they get a good night's rest, fix a breakfast, and make sure they get to school on time and obey school authorities. This is not rocket science, but here's my question. Can those requirements be satisfied by a president, congressman or mayor?
If those requirements aren't met, there's little hope that a child will get the academic preparation necessary to take advantage of opportunities. Spending more money on education cannot replace poor parenting. If it could, black academic achievement would be much higher than it is.
Numerous studies show that children raised in stable two-parent households do far better than those raised in single-parent households. They are less likely to have out-of-wedlock births, less likely to engage in criminal behavior and more likely to complete high school. Historically, black families have been relatively stable. From 1880 to 1960, the proportion of black children raised in two-parent families held steady at around 70 percent; in 1925 Harlem, it was 85 percent. Today, only 38 percent of black children are raised in two-parent families. In 1940, black illegitimacy was 16 percent; today, it's 70 percent. Stable two-parent families are vital for a child's development. The solution to the problem of unstable families won't be found in the political arena. There's nothing a president, congressman or mayor can do.
In many black neighborhoods, businessmen must install bars and roll-down gates for their storefronts, hire security guards and pay high insurance rates. Security precautions add significantly to the cost of business, and who do you think pays these extra costs? The businessman pays in the form of a lower return, and his customers pay in the form of higher prices and less convenience.
A tiny percentage of the black community is allowed to impose high costs on its overwhelmingly law-abiding residents. Criminals, vandals and thugs have turned once economically viable shopping areas into economic wastelands. Ensuring public safety is a job of politicians, and they fail miserably. The police, courts and jails allow thugs to prey on the black community with near impunity.
Solutions to the most serious problems that black Americans face will not be found in the political arena. Otherwise, the problems would have been long solved with the civil rights legislation, litigation and the more than $8 trillion spent on poverty programs since 1965. Or the problems would have been solved by the two terms of President Clinton, whom some blacks have called the first black president.
Perhaps the biggest roadblock to finding solutions is the widely held vision of the problem black people face, namely racial discrimination. That vision calls for civil rights strategies. The truth of the matter is that the black civil rights struggle is over and it's won. At one time, black Americans did not enjoy the constitutional protections enjoyed by others. Today, there are no constitutional protections not enjoyed by blacks. That's not to say that every vestige of discrimination has been eliminated. It is to say that the devastating problems facing a large proportion of the black community are not civil rights problems and the solution won't be found in the political arena.
About the Author
Born in Philadelphia in 1936, Walter E. Williams holds a bachelor's degree in economics from California State University (1965) and a master's degree (1967) and doctorate (1972) in economics from the University of California at Los Angeles.
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4012
Quote from: RiversideGator on March 12, 2008, 12:09:20 AM
Lake: I think we tend to think of changing the built environment because that is what we are most interested in (notwithstanding my current profession). But I think the truth is the changes must take place in the heart. People need to understand what is proper behavior and act accordingly. No amount of money or new housing will make people act honorably. There are plenty of rich dirtbags and plenty of poor saints. I have met many of each.
The article is another subject altogether, than from what I'm talking about. There are parts that I agree and disagree with, but that's for another discussion.
Of course everything starts and stops with will power and the willingness of a person to change. Sure you'll have exceptions, however, if a person is largely exposed to a certain set of lower standards, most likely those are the values they'll proceed through life with.
A better physical environment helps give a child the opportunity to have a better heart by installing values that may be largely absent in their current surroundings. By changing the physical environment, I'm not talking about new posh housing and development. I'm talking about having an influx of residents that are educated and have the will power to succeed and make something of themselves in life. I'm talking about filling neighborhoods with residents who can serve as good examples by the way they go about living their lives and carrying for their property, neighbors and surroundings. Speaking from personal experience, this can have a much larger affect on young impressionable lives than most acknowledge.
Right On Lakelander!
As long as the city uses "containment" to isolate those communities (and I doubt we are talking race here, but rather socio-economic issues) instead of requiring all members of the greater Jacksonville community to accept their fair share of marginalized people, then nothing will change. If, like Lakelander suggests, communities are willing to absorb and care for those neighbors in trouble, especially by setting an example, the problem can be resolved.
I agree with lakelander in his last post...but second_pancake...
Ok so if these kids are not getting the parenting they need at home, the motivation, the support, desire to succeed. Please tell me how you propose and fixing that? Kids at a young age can be influenced by strong role models, teachers in this case. I would think that most teachers teach to make a difference not be a fcat statistic. But if all they can do is barely keep a class under control don't you think that teacher needs more support in the class room to actually be able to teach students and challenge them? And asking me if I had job placement is a mute question i went to mandarin high school and had good role models that encouraged me to go to college not work at krystal's.
Quote from: second_pancake on March 11, 2008, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on March 11, 2008, 12:16:48 PM
i with fightingosprey07 on this. You can bring the crime rate down with enforcement, but the only way to keep it down is to change the neighborhoods through better education, better role models, better job opportunities. If a kid gets railroaded through high school and gets out barely being able to read, has no one to tell him there are opportunities out there for them, what do you expect them to do. I do think the Mayors reading program is one that will pay off, but in reality the school systems are the ones who are not doing the job. Guidance counselor's at high schools are a joke. If a kid is not going to college then we should have job counselors to help them become productive members of society. Kids spend more time worrying about the clothes they where then what they can do in the future. I could go on for hours about this. But as a society we need to start caring more about people and less about material b$.
Well, you got the last part of your comment right. But, how is providing greater education through schools going to prevent them from caring about clothes? It won't. In fact, putting all those kids together in one place where there are cliques and various social groups, only exaserbates the appearence issue. Kids act out and do things, sometimes illegal things, to either get attention or to fit into a certain group they want to be a part of. You can't "teach" this behavior out of them. They're kids, more importantly, teenagers, and that's just what they do. It's the parents responsibility to manage just how far their need to be a part of a social group, or the need to express themselves is taken.
Regarding job counselors, school is there to give kids the tools they need...basic tools, to survive. It's not there to teach them a trade or provide an apprenticeship. That's what college and specialty schools, that are funded privately, not by taxpayers, are for. You are not, nor should you ever be, guaranteed a job or job placement out of highschool. You should now have the tools to fend for yourself, so do it. Finding a job and creating a life requires, among other things, thought and ambition...a desire to do something and not rely on others to provide things to or for you. When you are taught a sense of entitlement, you will never work to do anything with your life and will only feel as if others have let you down which will create resentment and hatred, thus leading to a life of crime, or a life filled with addictions.
Let me ask you this, if YOU had job placement and job education provided to you in your school and were provided a place to work right out of highschool, do you think you would feel good about yourself today? Do you think you'd be more successful, equally successful, or less? Would you look to others to continue to 'help' you along your life's journey, or would you work hard to make it on your own?
QuoteOk so if these kids are not getting the parenting they need at home, the motivation, the support, desire to succeed. Please tell me how you propose and fixing that? Kids at a young age can be influenced by strong role models, teachers in this case. I would think that most teachers teach to make a difference not be a fcat statistic. But if all they can do is barely keep a class under control don't you think that teacher needs more support in the class room to actually be able to teach students and challenge them? And asking me if I had job placement is a mute question i went to mandarin high school and had good role models that encouraged me to go to college not work at krystal's
You had good parents who gave a damn. Violence begets violence. Indignency begets indignency. Ignorance begets ignorance. If there are parents out there who don't give a crap one way or the other about their own life, how can we expect them to care about their children? I agree people can be good role models, but if that child already has in his/her mind that they are going to grow up and be a gangster like mom or dad, you can beat right from wrong in their heads all day long and they aren't going to care.
The kids you are talking about are the ones that are still young and impressionable. The ones I'm talking about are the ones that started killing puppies since the day they could walk, who raped girls at the age of 9, and looked up to the rap-stars who lead lives of excess and violence and make money off of selling it to others. You can't bring a group of these children into a classroom and expect to get all Joe Clark on their ass and then everything will be good. They don't need more education, they need harsh reality. There needs to be consequences to peoples actions and until there are, the criminals will continue to be criminals with no regard for anyone they come into contact with.
I guess what it all really boils down to is force. In order to get these criminals to come around, you have to force them to care...whether you do it when they're young before they actually have committed any crimes (at-risk kids), or as some sort of intervention after they've committed crimes. That goes against human nature. Someone changes because they WANT to change...truely want to, not because someone forced them to. When you're dealing with people who have no moral basis for their actions and simply react without thought, how do you get them to want to care?
QuoteThe kids you are talking about are the ones that are still young and impressionable. The ones I'm talking about are the ones that started killing puppies since the day they could walk, who raped girls at the age of 9, and looked up to the rap-stars who lead lives of excess and violence and make money off of selling it to others. You can't bring a group of these children into a classroom and expect to get all Joe Clark on their ass and then everything will be good. They don't need more education, they need harsh reality. There needs to be consequences to peoples actions and until there are, the criminals will continue to be criminals with no regard for anyone they come into contact with.
They say, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. While there will always be an exception or two, I think the current generation may be lost. This is a problem that took decades to create and will take decades to ultimately turn around, which is why its important to target the youth at an early age.
I am a believer in tipping points and that we often underestimate how fast things can change. On education discipline in the classroom can be a different dynamic with the addition or loss of five students or just a trouble makers. An employer or two can suddenly lift the economic prospects of an area which will lower crime. A few professional people living on a street can change attitudes about what can be accomplished in life. Better law enforcement in an area can help people to see they can live trying to better their situation and not just keep their heads down. These are not easy situations to change but like rail systems it does not have to take as long as it often does.
I am not the biggest fan of many welfare systems because some will always try to "get over" on us but they are cheaper than prison systems.
In my opinion, number #3 (leadership) should be number one. Leadership in this city is terrible. I've been in these neighborhoods a lot when I worked in EMS; the civic leaders here talk a good game but few if any of them are out in the community talking to people. Who from the city, on a regular basis, talks to these people besides detectives and paramedics?
Communication is almost always one of the main solutions to any problem and communication between these so-called bad neighborhoods and the city leaders is poor. The only city employees out in these neighborhoods on a regular basis are cops & firefighters and that sends a strong message. Relations are so poor in some neighborhoods that often cops & firefighters aren't welcomed when their needed and that's just sad.
Besides the suggestions alreay made we need to get back to basics. The city needs to open the lines of communication and remove the stigma the media has created here. Make no mistake; there are a large number of people here that wear the murder rate stat like it's some kind of badge of honor. People brag about it like it's something to be proud of. The media thrives on this night after night. I agree that change comes from within but strong leadership and leading by example go a long way.
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http://thebrokenforum.wordpress.com/
Wow this topic is on Fire!!!! I don't how I missed this one!!!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 11, 2008, 03:35:23 PM
The problem starts before "home". The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves. It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.
WHOA!!!!! one of the smallest post that makes the most sense!!!! Once again Lake you hit it on the head.....your a genius.
Everyone look these "gremlins" were created in fatherless homes. Bad people create bad people. We don't get our habits and traits from thin air people!! F. the mayor and sheriff and teachers and all the other excuse people are naming. These "gremlins" were created by their parent(s). The Crackbabies have grown up. :-[ Don't you people get it?!?!? Most of todays current "gremlins" were born between 1982-1990 The FRIGGING CRACK YEARS!!!......Watch the movie Gremlins if you ever get a chance. Those things will look very familiar.
"The Scenario"
Young girl (17-20) has a child with man who doesn't care nor love her.
Young girl continues to have fun like she doesn't have a child (grandmother has the child).
Young girl has another child with another man (not the first baby daddy)
She also continues to run around and have fun like she has no children.
Grandma stops helping/dies
NOW young mother has to work because in her early days she was too busy having a gay ole time.
Oh yea she just had a third child.
Young mother works hard at her low paying job to feed her 3 kids, but she works so hard, she still needs to get her party on....after all shes a grown woman now.
Now the kids are teenagers...mom was always working. Oldest child looked up to the older kids in the "hood" while younger siblings looked up to the eldest child. Mother is so busy working 2 jobs, she has no clue what her 3 kids are doing.
The two boys are selling drugs/crimes and the daughter is having sex....but if you ask the mom...all she'll tell you is "she got some good kids" :-[ :-[
Now for all you normal people take this scenario and multiply it by 10,000 = Jacksonville's Problem.
"Gremlins" don't want jobs or education....they were not taught to want it. They were taught to do what they want and have fun(even if someone is killed)...by you know who...Dear Mama.
I'm Coolyfett and I approve this message.
I have been in Jacksonville all of my life. I am very sorry to say, it has gone downhill. The community has to pull together with the police. So many people dislike the police. Try joining ShAdCo-Jacksonville Sheriffs Council. We are the eyes for the community and Police. I only call when I see something very dangerous or something illegal. I am the Chairperson for the old Arlington Area Zone 2 Sector D. You can go to the Regency Substation, sign up for "Ride-A-Longs" To ride with your local police. You have to go 3 days in advance. They will do a background check. You have to wear black shoes, professional attire.You would not believe what they go through, DAILY! We, the people and community need to stand up and help the police. I know I'll get a lot of heat from all of you, but this is how I feel. We have not had any "New Police" in 5 yrs or more. We've had alot of the long timer police retire. They might have been replaced with new staff, but no increase in officers in 5 yrs! Let's all pull together and help Jacksonville, the kids, the community, the police, the city! :)We DONNOT want the Boston Experience! It's also amazing how many people are moving out of Jacksonville, but still work here. We want them to stay. Thanks for listening Jacksonville!
I also forgot to mention signing up for the Citizen's Police Academy! It is an intense 12 week course. You learn all of the internal depts of the JSO. It is one of the best courses I have ever taken! The best thing about it is: IT"S FREE! You also have graduation day too! The Officer who heads up the class, Cindy Leavens is highly organized and knows her stuff. She's very energetic and good! This helps you become more aware of what's going on in Jacksonville. I also have to compliment Jacksonville for training our officers as "Paramilitary". A very tough program to go through for the police students.Kudos to JSO! :)
Rgold....Tell us more about people moving out of Jax but still working in Jax. Where does that information come from?
Individuals that I work with.Some come from Gainesville, Callahan etc. Also when I talked to the Sheriff Rutherford. :(
well i can still sleep at night and im black so big whop white people chill out.......brig jobs to the area and the crime rate would drop .
Quote from: raheem942 on April 24, 2008, 03:57:28 PM
well i can still sleep at night and im black so big whop white people chill out.......brig jobs to the area and the crime rate would drop .
Jobs and better schools. The jobs look like the port may be perking that up but though the years we have had low unemployment here people need good schools for neighborhoods to flourish over time.
Michael Bloomberg in town to help reduce illegal guns? LMAO! So, how is he going to do that? He truly wants to get rid of all the guns and then only the crooks would have guns. Mr. Bloomberg and his money is the last person I would consult with. (this post is over a year old maybe somebody will pick the thread backup again.)
Pour more and more money into government projects and you will just multiply the problem. The price of stamps keep going up and the USPS service is still declining. Fedx and UPS are 20 times more efficient. 30 years with Amtrack--how are they doing?
So eventually
I can say I am from Jacksonville and I will have "street cred"?
Problem: High crime.
Solution: Carry firearms at all times; shoot to kill.
Quote from: buckethead on February 13, 2010, 12:07:00 PM
Problem: High crime.
Solution: Carry firearms at all times; shoot to kill.
Well...if everyone had a firearm on them, or you treat people like they do... You are going to be less likely to want to rob someone or act like a jackass or pick a fight.
or
just start to initiate sterilization on all the stupid people and hope that their bloodline stops with them
Jacksonville: The Next Detroit?
How appalling to even think of such a thing. Y'all need to be shot.
"HU"
Does that mean we will start having our own "Devils night"?
and.....
our own new light rail system...
(http://www.freep.com/uploads/images/2008/09/0912_transitgraphic.jpg)
a new commuter rail line
(http://www.semcog.org/uploadedImages/Programs_and_Projects/Planning/Corridor_Studies/AADetroitStill.jpg)
or increasingly vibrant downtown core
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594975038_2AvC4-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594974069_LUzAE-M.jpg)
If we stop hiding behind the mask of consolidation, we'll find that our urban core is just like Detroit's, except we're still wishing for the extra bells & whistles mentioned above.
Quote from: buckethead on February 13, 2010, 12:07:00 PM
Problem: High crime.
Solution: Carry firearms at all times; shoot to kill.
Really? The article said homicide has already been one of our biggest problems.
Quote from: heights unknown on February 14, 2010, 09:34:11 PM
Jacksonville: The Next Detroit?
How appalling to even think of such a thing. Y'all need to be shot.
You’re just being hilariously ironic right?
Quote from: mbarilla on March 11, 2008, 04:14:03 PM
I have a question.
I am from Gainesville, a small town that has (3) police forces: Alachua County Sheriff's Office, City of Gainesville Police, and University of Florida Police. Now, for a city the size of Gainesville, that's an awful lot of overlapping police jurisdiction.
So my question is, do you think the fact that Jacksonville has one police department for every square inch of Duval County MAY in fact hinder their effectiveness? With Gainesville as an example, each police force focuses on their area of jurisdiction, whether it's campus, the city limits or rural outlying areas. In Jacksonville, that obviously can't happen since there's no one but the JPO.
It just seems to me that , in a city that covers this much area and has so many poor and crime ridden neighborhoods, there needs to be more than one police department. It just doesn't make sense to me.
you know I actually was talking to friend about this the other day. I feel that Jacksonville Sheriff's office just isnt enough. We are the largest city (land wise) in the Continental United States, have a pretty large population (800,000 +) and we have the least amount of police on the streets because of that. And with more budgets cuts on the rise, thats going to get worse. I think we just don't have enough police to spread around.
And also being that fact that the police department is so afraid, if you get pulled over for speeding, two other cop cars are going to pull up, when they could actually be out doing something productive. I think there are alot of factors that play into our crime rate.
Just a couple of technicalities, but I know that you want to get it right.
Recently Fairbanks annexed enough land area to replace Jacksonville as the largest city in land mass.
In addition to JSO, Duval Co is also patrolled by officers from Neptune Beach PD, Jacksonville Beach PD and Atlantic Beach PD, not to mention the Coast Gaurd, National Park Service, FWCC and a few other law enforcement agencies. Baldwin went under contract with JSO just recently.
Quote from: Starbuck on April 15, 2010, 10:44:01 PM
Recently Fairbanks annexed enough land area to replace Jacksonville as the largest city in land mass.
which is why the term "continental US" was used....I know that Alaska is still on the continent, but most people think of it as only the lower 48
Laura @ Forsyth
I was thinking about this thread walking back to the car and shot this today, rather sad!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4525018004_30285f2c95.jpg)