Metro Jacksonville

(http://i.imgur.com/sK1xOVz.png)

Why is it that Bethel Baptist Church gets to park there vehicles in what is publicly owned land intended to be used as public space?

The church has supposedly been approached about the issue before, but nothing seems to have been done. It would be one thing if there were signs saying "public parking", but to the standard passerby it would appear that the land is strictly for church parking and possibly owned by the church. Of course, this is not the case. A closer look at the property unearths further disturbing characteristics. Half ass paved entryways exist at two corners of the lot, only encouraging its current use. Who the hell paid for that? I hope not the city. If Bethel is going to be using our public space for their convenience than I would at least like to see them out in Klutho Park picking up some trash every once in a while. Why should they get to breeze in and out Wednesdays and Sundays and not take any responsibility? Some of use live here.

I don't know the history behind Bethel parking on these parcels but for much of the 20th century, they had buildings on them. For many years, the lot north of 1st Street had an ice cream factory on it.

I'm sure there is a long history of Bethel using the adjacent properties for parking. I have seen pictures of structures on the parcels north of 1st. I'm actually not too concerned with that. It is city owned land, but I'm more concerned with the property south of 1st. It lies within an area considered parkland, and I'd imagine is maintained by the city. If it is going to be used for parking, efforts need to be made to inform citizens that it is for public use and properly maintain it as such. I'd much rather see it be used as green space, but i'm sure there would be an outcry by Bethel.

South of 1st had buildings on it as well.  I'd have to go back and verify with the sanborn maps, but I believe some were automotive repair related.

COJ mapping shows city ownership of this entire section shown in Mathew1056' post.
I agree, if any church or any other entity is to be allowed use of the land for parking, good stewardship and any official agreement must require the congregants (maybe) and (certainly) the ministers, deacons, and church administration to live by example and get themselves out there to foster the alliances which will better the park as a whole. 
No more paving of our parks.  Spread some zoysia or rye seed!
Strength in numbers.
This matter should be addressed in their Sunday and Wednesday sermons.

Perhaps they need a nudge, but screw is a bit much.

Might be a good location for an urban garden, complete with chickens.   :)

If people parked in this space because a sporting event was sold out, or for a LGBT picnic, or for a 'dogs in the park' event, how much do you want to bet that not a word would be said about it?

Overflow is a great problem to have in any successful endeavor, I bet the Ritz Theater would love to be parking people on a nearby patch of grass.

A few weeks ago, the city installed a temporary fence to prevent parking on the park land north of 1st St. (shown in the top right corner of the photo). That are of the park was turning into a mud pit with flooding from Hogans Creek and constant parking. It seems that parking is still allowed on the lot directly across Hogan St (to the east), but I do not know if that is part of the park or privately owned.

I appreciated the name change.

@Ocklawaha. I see your point, but you are not taking into account that Bethel is an organization with regularly held meetings. This is not a sporadic event with an unexpected large crowd, this is an accepted norm that the city and the church ignore everyday.

The point is not that there is overflow, it is that there is reoccurring overflow in a city park. The Ritz has plenty of empty lots it can fill. Green space is limited downtown it doesn't need to be turned into a parking lot. Why would gays want to come and have a picnic there if that was the case.

This is not an attack on the church. They would actual stand to benefit from a more attractive park. I'm not picking side. I'm just pointing out the obvious. 

It's just plain rude. I say start issuing tickets, the city needs the money anyway. I wouldn't have a problem if they were playing a role in cleaning up Hogan's Creek or contributing to the park in some way, but lets be honest, they aren't even doing outreach work to help those that use the park as a toilet. I'm sure those people could use a nice place to live and a hot meal every now and then. If that's too much to ask, then the church should start paying property taxes like the rest of us. Screw Bethel Baptist, shame on Metrojacksonville.com for changing the heading. How stupid.

I completely disagree. This cult…oops, I mean church... should not be allowed to park on our city park land and get away with it by picking up some trash every now and then. Bethel should be paying steep rent to park on all our land. And taxes, by the way, since we all know damn well Baptists use their churches as political brass knuckles, thrashing anyone who tries to defy their stranglehold of lies and stupidity. Remember separation of church and state? Separation of church and my goddamned parks!

Weren't these the same folks trying to rename our streets just a couple weeks ago?

Hey Lake,  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Bethel Baptist the sister church of FBC from their splinter many, many years ago?  Sometime before the Civil War it was a fully integrated church, but after the Civil War they split. FBC bought land near downtown and Bethel landed just north of them. I think they both originated on that former church site at Myrtle, Duval & Monroe that still has the cemetery in the middle.

Quote from: ubben on March 25, 2013, 08:03:40 PM
I completely disagree. This cult…oops, I mean church... should not be allowed to park on our city park land and get away with it by picking up some trash every now and then. Bethel should be paying steep rent to park on all our land. And taxes, by the way, since we all know damn well Baptists use their churches as political brass knuckles, thrashing anyone who tries to defy their stranglehold of lies and stupidity. Remember separation of church and state? Separation of church and my goddamned parks!

Weren't these the same folks trying to rename our streets just a couple weeks ago?

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?  Separation of church and state is in our historical founding documents. In a country 237 years old, only in the last 50 years has this been interpreted as elimination of church from state. Thus the  references to God in the Declaration of Independence.

The first sentence not only mentions God, but it establishes our nation on the foundation of "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God." The second sentence also mentions God, asserting that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Our city was only six years old when the mixed race congregation organized the Bethel Baptist Church in 1838. In 1840 they purchased property and formally incorporated the church under the laws of the territory of Florida in 1841, 4 years before statehood. The congregation moved into their new building in 1861, just in time for 'The War of Yankee Aggression.'  ;)  The Federal troops trashed the place and at the end of the war (under Federal Rule) the congregation was divided along racial lines.  A dispute over ownership was settled in the court with the Black congregation winning the day by force of numbers.  They then sold it to the White congregation which went on to incorporate the 'First Baptist Church.' Bethel's growing congregation led to the largest new church ever built in the South and opened by 'Colored' members.' The Great Jacksonville fire of 1901 wiped out the church and in 1904 the new (current) church opened. In short Bethel has been in Jacksonville long before there was anything along Hogans Creek but palmettos and pines. Bethel is a Jacksonville Treasure.

The hate spewed towards particular churches in our city is disturbing, but the ignorance exhibited by such bile is worse. The last time a major world religion suffered such hate the 'contemporary thinkers' were wearing brown shirts.

I do agree though that Bethel's surrounding's should benefit more from it than it does. a perfect example is what the Potter's house has done on the westside. Bethel's surrounding's and neighborhood should benefit much more from the church than it does. That's my only stance on it.

Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit. If i'm going to take the time to write something, find an image, photoshop it, post it to imgur, just so i can post it to your forum, I would like my creative capacity intact. "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide. You could have messaged me and asked me to change the name. I would have obliged. Instead I was treated like a troll.

I've always thought of this forum as an open conversation. If someone had a problem with anything I had wrote they could have told me. Instead my views were censored. I know there is a reason there are moderators, I don't feel that I crossed that line. If you are going to treat peoples topics like your own content than pay up.

Metro Jacksonville is not immune from the same thing going on at the T-U, worse maybe. It only takes a good format and the right contributors to challenge this site. The T-U will suffer from picking a niche market and sticking to it. Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

@StevenDare, If you are going to pick one person to generalize a neighborhood maybe you should choose yourself.

Quote from: Mathew1056 on March 26, 2013, 07:50:29 AM
Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit.  "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide.

Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

Nobody suggested you were missing these:

brain (brn)
n.
1.
a. The portion of the vertebrate central nervous system that is enclosed within the cranium, continuous with the spinal cord, and composed of gray matter and white matter. It is the primary center for the regulation and control of bodily activities, receiving and interpreting sensory impulses, and transmitting information to the muscles and body organs. It is also the seat of consciousness, thought, memory, and emotion.
b. A functionally similar portion of the invertebrate nervous system.
2.
a. Intellectual ability; mind: a dull brain; a quick brain.
b. Intellectual power; intelligence. Often used in the plural: has brains and good looks.


You yourself stated your post was without these:

manners plural of man·ner (Noun)
Noun
A way in which a thing is done or happens: "taking notes in an unobtrusive manner".

Which brings us to these - which you violated:

rules  (rl)
n.
1.
a. Governing power or its possession or use; authority.
b. The duration of such power.

As a virtual outsider and non-Southerner, my nose crimps upward and my head shakes back and forth.  How tacky to allow regular parking on (what appears to be) park property.  Still tacky to park on vacant land (seemingly also owned by the city and not the church.) What image is projected to the public when this is allowed to happen?  Vacant lots here (not all, but many, and we have very few vacant lots) are fenced in by the city (the fences are actually nice) and often temporary 3-D art is placed in the lot or they are given out temporarily to local groups to use as community garden lots until the lots are developed or sold.  I live in a large urban suburb of Los Angeles that cares very deeply about how it looks.  It embraces progressiveness and hold businesses and organizations accountable, it also supports the beautification and sustainability of all our neighborhoods.   One of the first thoughts in my mind was that someone is getting paid.  Just not on paper.  I would be interested to hear how the church gives service to the community in which it resides.  Not saying it doesn't, I just don't know.  I'm with mlbwright: bring on the chickens. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 26, 2013, 10:14:41 AM

Quote from: Mathew1056 on March 26, 2013, 07:50:29 AM
Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit.  "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide.

Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

Nobody suggested you were missing these:

brain (brn)
n.
1.
a. The portion of the vertebrate central nervous system that is enclosed within the cranium, continuous with the spinal cord, and composed of gray matter and white matter. It is the primary center for the regulation and control of bodily activities, receiving and interpreting sensory impulses, and transmitting information to the muscles and body organs. It is also the seat of consciousness, thought, memory, and emotion.
b. A functionally similar portion of the invertebrate nervous system.
2.
a. Intellectual ability; mind: a dull brain; a quick brain.
b. Intellectual power; intelligence. Often used in the plural: has brains and good looks.


You yourself stated your post was without these:

manners plural of man·ner (Noun)
Noun
A way in which a thing is done or happens: "taking notes in an unobtrusive manner".

Which brings us to these - which you violated:

rules  (rl)
n.
1.
a. Governing power or its possession or use; authority.
b. The duration of such power.

I don't think I have to restate why changing someone's thought on an open forum suggest that they don't have brains. I'm actually more offended that you feel I need a course on the meaning of brains. I'm starting to think my brains are better served elsewhere.

Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2013, 09:45:44 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on March 25, 2013, 09:43:18 PM
I do agree though that Bethel's surrounding's should benefit more from it than it does. a perfect example is what the Potter's house has done on the westside. Bethel's surrounding's and neighborhood should benefit much more from the church than it does. That's my only stance on it.

Probably would if SPAR hadnt spent the previous decade doing everything in their power to harrass, threaten and alienate the church. ;)

Seems a pretty simple thing to find some decent people like Gloria and Christina and Amanda to go over, reach out and ask how best to create solutions for everyone.

Good point Stephen.

If it's city park land not intended for parking, I'd think there would be some simple solutions that would help there: adding a hedge, greening up the space a bit, making it clear it's a community space and not just another empty lot. If the church needs parking I'm sure they could work something out with FSCJ on the weekends, there's a lot more spaces there than on that lot. However this is one of many areas of Hogan's Creek that needs a lot of help.

Does the city own the lot north of 1st? If not there's not much to be done with that.

While this may be publicly owned land... does anyone know if this is a "park"?  Perhaps the church has permission from the city to use this unimproved piece of public land??

The city owns both lots. However, I'm not sure they are considered parkland. In the past, they had buildings on them.

I recall a few years ago when there was an effort by the city to deed that land to Bethel for parking, since they tended to use it anyway without asking.  Those of us who live in Springfield said strongly if the park land were going to be used for parking, it should be public parking, and not deeded over to Bethel Baptist, who would generally only use it Wednesday and Sunday, and then it would not be available for events in the park.  I actually didn't know the outcome, but if it's to be used for parking, it should belong to the public.

That's not a slam on Bethel Baptist.  Just a fact that events in Klutho Park lack parking space, and if that large lot is to be used for parking, it should be available to everyone all the time.  That's all I'm saying.

That said, Chris Farley mentioned that parking on that land compresses it, and endangers the muddy banks and muddy bottom of Hogans Creek in that location due to the compression of the weight of the parked cars.  So maybe it shouldn't be parking at all, but instead be part of the park.

As for approaching Bethel Baptist, I know several people have tried.  Maybe because the church draws from all over the City, and isn't really a "local Springfield" church, they don't seem to get involved in Springfield.  Again, not a slam on Bethel, as First Baptist is literally on the edge of Springfield, and also doesn't get involved in the neighborhood a lot...some but not a lot...probably because they draw membership from all over the city too.

I KNOW WHAT'LL SOLVE THE PARKING ISSUE! CONSTRUCTING A LIGHT RAIL STATION THERE! SOLUTIONS!

ALSO - this thread and it's constant bickering by the same people who always perpetuate the same boring banter is a prime example why I dislike this site as much as I do. A poignant post about some interesting topic always turns into a mud slinging fest. Y'all need to cut out this sophomoric behavior and get over your bad selves already. Stop turning readers away. Please, I beg of you.

QuoteJust a fact that events in Klutho Park lack parking space, and if that large lot is to be used for parking, it should be available to everyone all the time. 

Just asking... If someone drove there right now and pulled in and parked... would they be ticketed or chased away?

I didnt think so... So basically anyone can park there... or spread a blanket and picnic there.  It is just another of the cities vast holdings of empty space that some people occasionally use to park on.

The whole reason I posted this was to get attention on the issue, and further insight. This was not a blind attack on Bethel. I've talked to congregation members on the ground. They were well informed on the issue, and quite hostile, just by the mere inquiry. You can stick to your rules justification for censoring my post. It was not intending to be uncivil, I was speaking to a crowd of what I thought was open minded individuals, doubting it included those who attend Bethel. I now see that Stephan is a stanch supporter Bethel's brand of crazy.

Attack SPAR all you want. Make the claim that they didn't reach out a hand to Bethel. Bethel members should have been able to step out of their vehicles and see the trash surrounding their church. It should have been a no brainer that a clean up could always be used around their facility. Churches are supposed to be doing the kind of work that betters our community. Isn't that why they don't pay taxes. Instead we allow them to build mega-churches without properly planned parking, and let them use municipal parks for their personal transportation, and yes, south of 1st is considered part of the park.

I'm sad to say, but I've decided to cancel my membership with this site. I have enjoyed the content on this blog, but I feel that some of those involved are not the type of people I want to be supporting. My time and input are better spent elsewhere.

Oh come now, Mathew. There's nothing to be gained from hostile words, and the site's owners can moderate it however they want. I'm happy they do so, it keeps the place mostly civil and away from becoming the jax.com comments section.

MEANWHILE, BACK TO MATTHEW'S POST

Quote from: Mathew1056 on March 26, 2013, 04:44:05 PM
It was not intending to be uncivil, I was speaking to a crowd of what I thought was open minded individuals, doubting it included those who attend Bethel. I now see that Stephan is a stanch supporter Bethel's brand of crazy.

I find it interesting that in one sentence you indicate you thought we were similar 'open minded' individuals, and in the next sentence, you state that 'Bethel's leadership and members are crazy.' So much for an open mind. How many of their services have you attended to make such a statement?

QuoteAttack SPAR all you want. Make the claim that they didn't reach out a hand to Bethel.

Perhaps Stephen is aware of SPAR reaching out to Bethel, I'm certainly not. As for attacking SPAR, they attacked (actually assaulted) us, en masse.

QuoteChurches are supposed to be doing the kind of work that betters our community. Isn't that why they don't pay taxes. Instead we allow them to build mega-churches without properly planned parking, and let them use municipal parks for their personal transportation, and yes, south of 1st is considered part of the park.

Your logic fails me. Churches are supposed to be doing good works in the community, but because we have allowed some members to park in the edge of a city park you concluded they're not doing good works and shouldn't be tax exempt?

QuoteI'm sad to say, but I've decided to cancel my membership with this site. I have enjoyed the content on this blog, but I feel that some of those involved are not the type of people I want to be supporting. My time and input are better spent elsewhere.

Wow, just freaking wow man. We tweak the thread title for civility and from that you have:

Accused us of attacking SPAR
Attacked Stephendare in your posts.
Decided we are not 'open minded people'.
Concluded Bethel does nothing good in the community.
Reasoned that we are connected with Bethel.
Come up with reasons to revoke tax exemption.
Chose to quit MJ

For what it's worth, I just looked at a series of sanborn maps between 1913 and 1958.  It appears, at least in those years, neither of these parcels were used as park land.  The park was on the north side of the creek.  In the late 20's the creek was channelized a little north of the original creek, so a portion of the north parcel was originally low lying swamp and creek bed.  Nevertheless, the uses on the two parcels in discussion were residential a century ago and eventually become industrial (Berrier's Ice Cream plant - north parcel) and automotive repair related (south parcel).

Sanborn map of the lot south of 1st Street in 1958:
(http://sanborn.umi.com/sanborn/image/fetchimage?state=fl&reelid=reel05&lcid=1286&imagename=00200&width=1143&CCSI=&crop=1,0-925,699)

Sanborn map of the lot north of 1st Street in 1958:
(http://sanborn.umi.com/sanborn/image/fetchimage?state=fl&reelid=reel05&lcid=1286&imagename=00222&width=2690&CCSI=&crop=1700,233-2624,932)

Regarding parking on these parcels, the north parcel was recently fenced off and redone by COJ.  It looks nice and I wish the rest of the area could receive the same treatment.  Is the fence now gone and cars back on it?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2385304499_3LwHjRH-M.jpg)

So since the city owns the lots (right?) and they are not part of the parks system (so it seems from Lake's Sanborn maps) why wouldn't the city sell the land to generate funds?  Do they not know they own it?  Is it maintained? (At least where the cars park currently (not the fenced in/grassed in part above from Lake.)

It is my opinion that we all (individuals, businesses, churches, schools, etc.) need to give back to our communities.  We have an obligation to participate, help, maintain, however you want to call it to make where we live, work, and visit a better place to all. 

Lakelander, I could be wrong, but I think the recent re-do had to do with Project New Ground and ash remediation. 

Ionia, personally, I think it should be public parking for events in Klutho Park.   Klutho is a public park.  Other public parks have sufficient parking.  Klutho doesn't.  If the city owns that property, and it's to be used for parking, it should provide public parking for Klutho.  Why shouldn't Klutho have sufficient parking?

Quote from: stephendare on March 27, 2013, 01:03:40 PM

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on March 27, 2013, 12:59:56 PM
Lakelander, I could be wrong, but I think the recent re-do had to do with Project New Ground and ash remediation. 

Ionia, personally, I think it should be public parking for events in Klutho Park.   Klutho is a public park.  Other public parks have sufficient parking.  Klutho doesn't.  If the city owns that property, and it's to be used for parking, it should provide public parking for Klutho.  Why shouldn't Klutho have sufficient parking?

Debbie Thompson fan club forming.  email for details.

She is pretty awesome :)

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on March 27, 2013, 12:59:56 PM
Lakelander, I could be wrong, but I think the recent re-do had to do with Project New Ground and ash remediation. 

Ionia, personally, I think it should be public parking for events in Klutho Park.   Klutho is a public park.  Other public parks have sufficient parking.  Klutho doesn't.  If the city owns that property, and it's to be used for parking, it should provide public parking for Klutho.  Why shouldn't Klutho have sufficient parking?

Most old parks in Jacksonville do not have their own parking lots. If am not mistaken there is a small parking lot at klutho park.

Can't all parking be accommodated on-street? I'm in Charleston right now. It's amazing what type of urban atmosphere you can have when the car isn't top priority.

I'm always miffed when there are no bike racks for me to lock up my cruiser.

As with other challenges in Spfld we need a few interested peeps vested in making a difference in the park and creek. At one point way long ago I recall a parks group. One seemed to be developing alongside the disc golf, not sure if that exists any longer.  On the Spar website there is a page for a "parks committee" http://www.sparcouncil.org/parks maybe that's something to get involved in. 

It would be great to have a working relationship with Bethel and other local organizations that host large groups of peeps. Someone (I'm a "save the houses" lady, not parks) needs to step-up and take leadership charge and open up the lines of communication.

There is a small (a few cars) parking lot and there is some parking along the street.  However, if you want to have a large event, like Dog Days in the Park, there isn't really sufficient parking.  So...again....public parking.  :-)  And I don't mean pave it over.  Just leave it grass and allow public parking.