NOTICE: This is posted in several forums due to importance and coverage:
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This is where our BRT investment ends in 5 years!
Blaylock has seen the videos promoting BRT, all of the glossy footage is from Colombia, Brazil, and Australia. The videos end by going back to each of the glowing Executive Directors, and telling how each one become a Mayor, or Governor, or even a presidential candidate! These can be seen under BRT on YouTube.
So it is with a skewed sense of "empire building" that JTA parrots the benefits of BRT. One of the things tossed at the media, was the FACT that JTA buses in Jacksonville rack up some 350 miles a day. But did you know that this figure will not square with the "discount costs of BRT?" TRUE! JTA is churning out BRT propaganda at a rate that would make old Joe Stalin blush. You do the math:
$350,000 for one current, NON-BRT new bus as being delivered to JTA
or
$900,000 for one new BRT hybrid bus as being delivered to the Emx in Eugene, Oregon.
It will not matter which bus you choose to work with, the numbers are still bad!
take either of those numbers and calculate 350 miles per day x 7 days...
take either of those numbers and calculate 350 miles per day x 5 days...
Again, it won't matter which service schedule you use, the numbers are still bad!
How quick did you reach 500,000 miles? 4 years? 5 years? Well guess what? The FTA mandates that the buses SHOULD be retired at 500,000 miles. So then we get to buy new ones again for our discount BRT line... and THAT, my friends, should happen just about the same time the entire BRT bargain will need to be repaved!
Someone has some really fuzzy math skills down on Myrtle Avenue, or does someone what to be President!??? @^#@^%#
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A Billion Dollars and we get THIS?
A personal aside for Mr. Blaylock, Your BRT candidate for President of Colombia lost his bid, Sr Uribe, who is rebuilding the nations railroads won by a landslide... TWICE! So get real and stop the deceptions, Any questions?
Ocklawaha
Interesting observation. How long can rail cars be used before retirement?
500,000 miles seems kind of low to retire a bus.
Also, it's not uncommon for a railcar to be in service for over 30 years, which is millions and millions of miles.
buses tend to stay in service for 20 years or more...likely far more than 500,000 miles!
Here are the Federal Guidelines for Transit Buses. Sorry guys, I don't make this stuff up. I know some of you already are familiar with my posts and know many of my information sources. For those who do not, though I am now retired, I still serve as a member of a planning body, for the Inspector General, and Secretary of Transportation, Railroad Transportation, Republica de Colombia. Also for The Pacific Railroad, and for Fenoco Atlantic Rail System. Jacksonville is my home and my passion. We have allowed ourselves to be short-changed at every turn by a highway building, friend of Big Oil, JTA. It is time to split JTA and bury our stigma of being one of only two major American Cities with a highway building authority as our transit agency. This is a conflict of interest and common sense.
QuoteAll transit agencies are required to maintain fleets in a good state of repair and need to replace buses that have exceeded the industry standard retirement age of twelve years/500,000 miles. Retired buses in good condition provide revenue for some transit agencies through sales to other entities.
Transit bus manufacturers have expressed some concerns about the twelve-year/500,000-mile vehicle service life standard. According to one bus manufacturer participating in this study, bus engines and transmissions usually are at the end of the life cycle at seven or eight years. The manufacturer questioned the cost benefit of the twelve-year standard and commented that heavy investments in maintenance by the transit agencies typically start around the eight-year mark. One suggestion is to re-set the service life standard at eight years and install a re-manufactured engine or transmission to decrease the probability of breakdowns and costs of major repairs.
Federal Transit Administration
Lake, the most recent data I could find sets LRT vehicle life "expectancy" at 35 years, although it is common for them to go as long as 50 or more. The New Orleans cars were built in 1923-25, Kenosha's cars in the late 1930's-40's, Dallas, Memphis, Fort Smith, Fort Collins, Portland, San Pedro, San Francisco and Tampa, all have cars in operation either along their heritage trolleys, or mixed with their Light Rail, or Modern Streetcars, that date to the 1920's. QuoteIn this assessment, a 50-year life is assumed to be reasonable for LRT infrastructure because this includes right-of-way (ROW), to which even FTA assigns a 100-year life. FTA's mandatory life expectancy for railcars is 25 years, which seems unreasonably low compared with industry experience. Various sources report a 30 to 35-year economic life for rail rolling stock; this analysis has used 30 years.
The FTA's average life for a bus of 12 years, on the other hand, does seem reasonable in light of widespread industry experience, and this is corroborated by reliable documentary evidence. For the economic life of bus fixed facilities, 45 years has been used for several reasons: (1) Buses run mainly on public streets, so there's very little need for ROW acquisition and cost. (2) Many bus facilities, such as sidewalk signage, benches, etc., are much less durable than comparable items on rail stop or station platforms. (3) Bus pavement has a shorter life than rail track infrastructure, and their salvage value is basically nil.
Light Rail Now, used with permission, LRN Austin TX
Railroad equipment falls under different standards. As a rule, body, frame, motor can operate without end as long as regular FRA inspections are maintained. Several of the new BRT bus models, out-weigh the Modern Streetcars. As you can see the bus standard above is looking at a roll-back from 12 years/500,000 miles to 8 years/500,000 miles. As noted in the Thread, even THAT is probably not realistic. So by the time our new BRT is complete, in 20 years, we may well be on our FOURTH set of $900,000 dollar buses, and our THIRD complete resurfacing of the BRT busways. It is not demand that is pushing BRT but rather the Bush Administrations anti rail bias. One only has to look as far as the family business to see his loyalty's lay with oil and asphalt.Ocklawaha :o :'( ::)
You have a point Ock....just from a longevity point rail should be the point of the mass transit attack. Trolley system I think would be ideal but not sure how that would mesh with vehicle traffic! It's obvious that we need to do something and real soon......playing catchup always costs more in the long run.
Your right, and unless the new 904 business magazine got JTA'S Scott Clem quote all wrong, we are still NOT serious about considering Light Rail. "Light Rail is not a good fit for Jacksonville..."
Scott, damn man, Mike Blaylock, James Boyle, and yourself, are better then that. Jacksonville is more dense then about 45% of all of the cities with Light Rail. You do know that Light Rail actually INCLUDES Streetcars, which are a form of Light Rail? Does this mean the streetcar study was just to get the 300 pound Ocklawaha River Gorilla off your backs? (BTW-That WON'T happen) The worse part of the recent JTA statement is we are far denser in the corridors that would/could be served by Light Rail. IE: Blanding, Phillips, JTB, Atlantic, Beach, Lem Turner, Main Street, Riverside, Park, Beaver, Bay, etc.. Since Light Rail and streetcars CAN MIX, and since Light Rail would only be in the streets for very limited segments, it's kind of hard for Jacksonville to make such a rash comment. Frankly, the various corridor routes radianting from the City core, includes scores of JEA high power line right of way (which is an easy feed - win win situation) railroad rights's of way, highway medians, etc.
Further, building a special roadway just for buses along those routes will run from 80-200 Million a mile (FDOT) and then come back and cost us from 6-16 thousand dollars a year for upkeep. Class 6 railroad track can be built for a tad over 5 Million a mile, with a life span of 50-100 years. Vehicle maintenance is also cheaper with Light Rail/Streetcars in comparison to bus systems. Full featured Streetcar to Light Rail can be built much cheaper then a highway system.
I don't know why that statement was made, but it doesn't bode well for us crossing the Rubicon into a tier one city.
OCKLAWAHA
Are you too retired to run for Mayor Ock?
I watched this Blaylock guy in an interview...the term 'dim bulb' came to mind. so fuzzy math and dim bulb would make complete sense.
Gentlemen.....I concur! Light rail maybe one option but the thought of a "Bus dedicated lane" scares the hell out me! Not a real good idea since it eats up roadway, which we are lacking right now.....case in point "Rush Hour" AM or PM and see just what take place! Don't have enough roads as it is and its going to get worse! A dedicated buss lane would further bollix things up...... so a feeder system in and out would help...if it were dependable and consistant travel time wise. I know that New York City increases bus's and trains during rush hour to help relieve congestion .....I see no evidence of that taking place here!
I've ridden light rail, trolleys, trams, etc. in New Orleans, Toronto, Amsterdam, Denver, San Francisco. One thing not mentioned so far is that they are far more comfortable to ride than buses. Smoother ride, smoother stops and starts. You just glide along. Very restful.
In Amsterdam they even put mail drops on the trolleys rather than putting them on a street corner. You need to mail a letter, you just wait for the nest tram and drop the mail in the box on the back. Every time a trolley goes through the train station (inter-modal transfer point), the mail is collected from the boxes and sent on its way. Efficient!
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Doesn't look like it fits Jacksonville, does it?
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on August 27, 2009, 02:15:12 PM
I watched this Blaylock guy in an interview...the term 'dim bulb' came to mind. so fuzzy math and dim bulb would make complete sense.
Actually, Mr. Blaylock, The JTA Director, is quite the visionary and very receptive to new concepts. He has met with MJ staff several times and not only receives us warmly, but takes a genuine constructive part in our conversation/work sessions together.
I think where the excrement hits the mechanical ventilating device is that JTA is NOT a COJ entity, rather a STATE ward. The State of Florida has been hostile to rail since the streetcar strikes of the 1912-25 era. FDOT has never met a rail transit plan they didn't either hate or completely screw up. Witness the Bullet Train, which will be built with tax payer money (if ever) and designed simply to serve two airports and Disney. Yeah, I know they claim it will go on into Tampa, yadda, yadda, yadda. I want to know why Mickey Mouse isn't paying for this? If you were serious about transportation between all of Florida's major metros, would YOU start with Disney World? Twice before this thing has been to the point of pulling the trigger, then we washed out... FDOT? Three's a charm! Next how about the screwed up Central Florida Commuter Rail? How about removing funds from Tri-Rail in Miami, to pay for a commuter train in Orlando? How about allowing CSX to remove 60 miles of a key mainline for Amtrak, between Auburndale and Coleman (Wildwood)? Now with all of this in mind, consider who BLAYLOCK WORKS FOR!
The FDOT railroad geniuses couldn't pour water out of a boot with directions written on the heel.
Jacksonville needs rail transit and needs it NOW! (http://www.americanrail.com/images/travelog/NO_streetcar_3.jpg)
All those grassy medians? Nah, never work here... BULL SHIT!
OCKLAWAHA
I concur with your idea about FDOT and their thinking about rail of any kind Ock! Infact FDOT has a very limited vision of much of anything.....case in point access to Deerwood across South Side used to be a traffic light.....that was removed and you now go 5 miles.....2 and a half one way south and 2 and a half north for a total of 5 miles additional.....the only thing that did ease aces for the DR Horton project onto South Side! Did not enhance anything for the people who allready lived in that area.....buffoons! I do not trust FDOT to have anyones best interest in mind other than who the hell knows!
Most of our roadways are equipped with wide medians. Light rail could easily run the length of Phillips and not take up traffic lanes. This is just one example. As you drive the major arteries in this city notice that most could accommodate a light rail line or trolley with minimal impact on existing traffic patterns. The trolleys of San Francisco run on the same streets as cars with minimal impact on traffic.
BridgeTroll.....that's a fine idea! Right of way is allready in place and minimal impact.....only limit would be late year Highways with a wide enough area to install......go electric and shazam!