Serving inferior products and scared of competition, two downtown restaurant owners lobbying City Council to artificially destroy their competition. Viva La Free Market Comrades!!!!
Interesting how Quiznos franchises are closing all over town (in areas that food trucks don't go to) and highly successful restaurants downtown like Burrito Gallery and Olio publicly welcome food trucks downtown. Just a weird coincidence?
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Food-truck-fight/hi-qX2S840i4H7OAoa80ZQ.cspx (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Food-truck-fight/hi-qX2S840i4H7OAoa80ZQ.cspx)
Nothing like a little Atlas Shrugged drama keep us entertained.
If you can't keep up with your competition, don't bother trying to improve your business, let the government handle it!
Interesting. The Quinzo's owner doesn't want anymore restaurants downtown. I worked one block away from Quizno's for two years and only ate there twice because someone else paid for it. Honestly, if I we're in her position, I'd probably feel the same way. Being involved with a dying chain like Quinzo's isn't going to end well, trucks being four or five blocks away or not.
I'm sure the Desert Rider Sandwich shop just down the street is far less concerned about food trucks and more concerned about their customer experience. They go so far above and beyond to please their customers that I doubt they have time or energy for much else. In a year's time, I wonder which of the two will still be around.
I wonder if the Subway owner feels the same way? Quiznos is a little expensive. With the new courthouse so close by she should be doing just fine.
I happen to agree with the Quinzo's owner, the DT restaurant scene is truly 'over-saturated with eateries'. Hahahahaha! I can't say that with a straight face. There's a first for everything, and that's definitely the first time that I ever heard someone complain with the over abundance of DT Jax restaurants LOL.
^Yeah. If I were her, I'd be more worried about Subway's cheap sandwiches across the street than a cupcake truck parked in LaVilla.
^^^Exactly.
Figured something like this is going to happen. Only a matter of time before this will be in front of the city council.
Lol, we really need to decide what type of city we want to be. At times I think that there are those who really don't want a truly vibrant urban core and are happy with the current existing environment.
^LOL, Just wait until the Friends Of Hemming Plaza Take over.
Anyone want to go kayaking and fishing under the brand new No Fishing signs that was never before Waterways?
I am Downtown and why you aren't.
Ben, we need to go kayaking Downtown before 2025
I worked downtown for 12 years. Ate at that Quizno's once. Was not impressed. But we ate at Zodiac about once a week. Why? Because their food is good. (Love the Galaxy Chicken Salad.) Also enjoyed Koja Sushi, Johnny's Deli when he was on Adams, before he moved to Riverside, and sometimes Cafe Nola. If you have good food, reasonably priced, people will come. Not every day, but regularly. Johnny's and Zodiac had lines at lunch time. If Quizno's is having issues, the franchisee should look in the mirror, not at food trucks.
I'm not sure even access to Riverside and Springfield or front door parking would save her. From the Springfield side, there's a Quinzo's (or at least there used to be) inside of FSCJ and the Quinzo's in Riverside, which had plenty of parking, closed last year. If you want a deli sandwich, there a ton of better/cheaper options to select from in DT.
Don't worry, our friend Big Government will wield his big stick and throw these Yankee pigs in the gulag. Soon we'll give people citations for not eating our food, and the people will be forced to eat from our state run restaurants. This is nothing that the threat of a trip to Siberia won't be able to handle.
Parking?!? If people are walking past Adams St Deli and Quzinos which are in the CENTER of downtown to stand in the rain to eat food from a guy cooking in the back of a mail truck (who also pay rent to either a private landlord or the City... Or in the case if Art Walk a vendor fee to DVI)... Then you can't blame that on parking.
'We already have too many restaurants' is the same misguided reason that led Riverside/Avondale to reveive a moratorium on new business growth.
Viva Communism my friends!! Hugo Chavez is now doing a case study on Jacksonville.
Seriously, parking?!?!?
I'm one of those people that has to drive to OTF and I can promise you that there is nearly ZERO parking anywhere nearby. When I'm on the bike, I don't mind parking it on the sidewalk, but in the truck, I typically have to use Elkin's lot and walk the 500 ft.
The parking issue won't fly here.
if we can just focus on the real problem, there just aren't enough people DT on a regular basis. Create more apartments, fill our office spaces, bring in more retail, (such as stores that you'd finde in any mall) improve mass transit, bring in the government run social services. (such as the Divison of Blind Services, as just one example) With enough people DT, there will be more than enough busniess to go around for all resturants, Brick & mortor and food trucks.
Create more apartments, fill our office spaces, bring in more retail (such as stores that you'd find in any mall), improve mass transit......
Without giving away house (which would include paying people/companies to move downtown, developers to build, etc.), to realistically accomplish this, you do recognize that it could take 20-30 years of continuous revitalization efforts......right?
While more people living downtown would obviously help and obviously take a while, all that means is that there would be so many people downtown that even an unpopular place like Quiznos would have a fighting chance. Though that would be due to the volume of people and not their quality/position in the market.
Right now though it's still lame to try and snub a successful business to protect a failing one... no matter how many people are hanging around. I lived downtown for 2 years and didn't have the 20-30 years to wait around for that revitalization to happen so I moved to LA. According to this smartphone app I am currently within walking distance of about 6 food trucks. :P
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2013, 03:09:43 PM
Create more apartments, fill our office spaces, bring in more retail (such as stores that you'd find in any mall), improve mass transit......
Without giving away house (which would include paying people/companies to move downtown, developers to build, etc.), to realistically accomplish this, you do recognize that it could take 20-30 years of continuous revitalization efforts......right?
I'm sure it would take a while, that's why we have to start now. I remember an article about Detroit a few weeks ago. They're aggressively trying to bring back their DT, and other cities were successful bringing back their DT's as well. I think we can do it too if we tried hard enough.
I actually agree. I just don't think Jacksonville has reached the point to where it is willing to accept the types of strategies needed to give the redevelopment process a swift kick in the pants. I mean, just look at this mobility fee issue. Our council is split on it, despite a moratorium having no evidence available that it worked last year or would magically work if given three years. Now imagine the fallout if someone proposed a Detroit or Philly style revitalization scheme, such as paying people to move downtown or implementing a 10-year tax abatement program for much of the urban core. Unfortunately, for us, those are the types of things that can dramatically speed the process up, which is the implementation pace that most dream of when the term "downtown vibrancy" is mentioned.
The council is split on the issue?! I thought it was just a few that were pushing for the moratorium. Well that really sucks. It's not like we can just vote them out for supporting it either, most people in JAX have no idea about the Mobility Plan or fee. They just go along with what the council does no questions asked.
Someone should tell council, that if they pass the moratorium, they might as well just cancel the entire Mobility Plan and shelf it along with the rest of the urban projects. Hell while they're at it, they can disband mass transit, stop building sidewalks and make it a crime to not have your own car.
The council is split, because half of the council used money from developers to get elected.
Quote from: CG7 on February 20, 2013, 04:49:48 PM
The council is split, because half of the council used money from developers to get elected.
likely more than half
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2013, 08:58:45 PM
Quote from: CG7 on February 20, 2013, 04:49:48 PM
The council is split, because half of the council used money from developers to get elected.
likely more than half
Way more than half. Probably all.
Quote from: feedback on February 19, 2013, 04:08:01 PM
While more people living downtown would obviously help and obviously take a while, all that means is that there would be so many people downtown that even an unpopular place like Quiznos would have a fighting chance. Though that would be due to the volume of people and not their quality/position in the market.
Right now though it's still lame to try and snub a successful business to protect a failing one... no matter how many people are hanging around. I lived downtown for 2 years and didn't have the 20-30 years to wait around for that revitalization to happen so I moved to LA. According to this smartphone app I am currently within walking distance of about 6 food trucks. :P
The real problem with Jax. People who really want to see things improved get tired of not only the glacial pace but the "one step forward, two steps back" method of revitalization. So they give it a couple years, then go someplace that already has what they're looking for, leaving Jacksonville in the dust.
Well, never going to Adams Street Deli again. And Quiznos...well, I wasn't going there anyway.
Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2013, 12:36:28 PM
I sympathise with the quizno's franchisee. She has no parking on her corner during the day. Even though Monroe Street is now blocked by the Courthouse, and there is no real traffic on it, the city is still dragging their feet on making parking along Monroe during daylight hours a reality. So she is limited by downtown's parking policies.
But its just evidence of the shocking population loss in downtown. You cannot make enough money as a restaurant during the day unless you have extremely low rent. The lunch hour is really only about 1.5 hours long and there are no outlanders that come to downtown as a result of the parking enforcement terrorism of the past 20 years. So you can only rely on downtown stationed customers.
That said, the answer isnt to set a precedent where we are regulating competition for god's sake.
The owner would be better served demanding transit connections to riverside and springfield, which would at least give them access to outland customers.
I sympathize with her for having a struggling business. She loses that sympathy pulling this anti-competitive bs. I hope she doesn't need parking within 15 feet of her establishment to stay in business. In that case, any downtown is a bad location. The issue for this business is inferior product and service, not parking. I work in Riverside and eat downtown at least once a week. Parking is never an issue. In fact, the corner where Quiznos is located is surrounded by parking. You can't park in front of Subway down the street, but you can park on both sides of Quiznos and across the street. Probably one of the easier places to park near for lunch downtown. And no food truck nearby except during Art Walk.
Quiznos are closing all over the country. This place wouldn't stay in business even if there were 60,000 people living downtown. It would still be making the least money and rents would be higher.
It isn't that I don't sympathize. And this Quizno's has been open for awhile. It's just that other restaurants within a block or two of this one have lines at lunch, and pretty much the same situation with parking. Quite a few people work downtown. So if other close-by restaurants have lines at lunch, with the current parking and census, and this one does not, why would you look at parking or the current downtown census as the problem?
A Jax Daily Record article on this issue:
QuoteGroups are lining up in support of and opposition to food trucks, the trend that's become a part of Downtown dining.
The mobile cuisine vendors offer additional menu options and convenience for urban workers and residents and have been a rapidly growing trend in Jacksonville and across the country.
Yet, for some people, the vendors pose a threat to established businesses in the competition for market share.
Without highlighting specific arguments for or against the concept and being cognizant that there eventually might be legislation introduced concerning the matter, here's a look at where the City, Downtown Vision Inc. and JAX Chamber stand on the issue.
full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2013-02-21
Tuesday, the Bailiff stood before at least 300 potential jurors and announced that there were very limited venues to serve lunch, mentioning the snack bar/restaurant in the courthouse as not up to speed and then the food truck a block away at Jefferson.
If the jurors wanted to take the shuttle back to their cars and then go somewhere for lunch they should be prepared to spend 20 minutes going and 20 minutes returning, leaving very little time for lunch.
Final option was to trek over by Hemming Plaza for fast food. No mention of Adams Street Deli, 4 blocks away from the courthouse or Quizno's. He did call out Subway, however.
SD & PJE, why are you two even arguing about parking?
I happen to be someone who has to drive into downtown to eat at lunch as well, and the only place that I can be sure of finding a parking spot is Chomp Chomp. There's rarely any available parking at OTF. Chamblin's.... fuh-get-a-about it. Most of the time I just plan on parking on either Duval or Church and making the whole 2 block walk.
I normally park on Julia Street for short downtown trips. I've never driven down that street and have not been able to find a space within a block or two walk of Hemming. I refuse to pay for off-street parking in downtown on the principle of it, so if I'm making a day of it, I park on Laura, north of State (and walk...it doesn't take that long...really) or near the Kings Avenue Station and take the skyway in.
Quote from: stephendare on February 21, 2013, 09:49:23 AM
PeeJay. It is clear to anyone who reads this that you have never been downtown during lunch in your entire life.
Having owned a business in the same building as subway, let met lightly suggest that you don't seem to know what you are talking about.
On Hogan Street, the spots are 15 minute parking, and all nine of them are shared in common with the 11 businesses that line that block. Across the street on monroe you cannot park because it is the United States Federal Court House, There are four other spots on the same side of the street.
;D The Quizno's owner will have owned a business in a building downtown, too, once the franchise closes. Doesn't mean they have any expertise in downtown policy or business ownership. Still don't see the connection between the failing of this business, which is connected to a parking garage, and parking while others in similar or worse locations are doing fine and thriving. Perhaps demographically, only super-lazy people go to Quiznos? Of course, that doesn't work when you consider Subway in a worse location.
NRW: 2 block walk?!? In downtown? So a 2 block walk is the most you ever have to make in downtown Jacksonville? That is not a parking issue.
And rarely parking at On the Fly? It is in an empty parking lot, with street parking out front!
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 26, 2013, 02:15:16 PM
NRW: 2 block walk?!? In downtown? So a 2 block walk is the most you ever have to make in downtown Jacksonville? That is not a parking issue.
And rarely parking at On the Fly? It is in an empty parking lot, with street parking out front!
I re-read my post and realized I wasn't very clear. and the 'whole 2 block walk' was sarcasm. My point was that the parking outside of OTF is probably worse than the parking around Quizno's. The competitive advantage that OTF has is higher quality food.
Oh yeah, and OTF didn't roll out an advertising campaign using singing rats and a talking oven that molests employees. 8)
Also...
I'm guessing that you've never been to OTF, or you would have known that you can't use the parking lot that they're set up in and the street is normally full of cars for courthouse business.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 26, 2013, 03:11:48 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 26, 2013, 02:15:16 PM
NRW: 2 block walk?!? In downtown? So a 2 block walk is the most you ever have to make in downtown Jacksonville? That is not a parking issue.
And rarely parking at On the Fly? It is in an empty parking lot, with street parking out front!
I re-read my post and realized I wasn't very clear. and the 'whole 2 block walk' was sarcasm. My point was that the parking outside of OTF is probably worse than the parking around Quizno's. The competitive advantage that OTF has is higher quality food.
Oh yeah, and OTF didn't roll out an advertising campaign using singing rats and a talking oven that molests employees. 8)
Also...
I'm guessing that you've never been to OTF, or you would have known that you can't use the parking lot that they're set up in and the street is normally full of cars for courthouse business.
Such assumptions! Never been to OTF, never eaten downtown. What is the world coming to?
Touche. I did not realize that was monthly parking, but perhaps that is just because it has always been so easy to find parking. Perhaps the problem is I am super lucky.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 26, 2013, 05:01:04 PM
Perhaps the problem is I am super lucky.
That would be a fantastic problem to have. Good on ya'. ;D
I don't think I've ever been in a city where food trucks as a concept aren't debated. Even in the most progressive of cities where food trucks have been around before the term "food truck" was even coined ~5 years ago, there have been businesses weary of the lax regulation and the increased mobile competition. This is not new.
I think city policy should balance the needs of the bricks and mortar businesses paying rent and taxes and having to deal with stricter regulations, against the wishes of people who desire more food options and vibrancy/convenience downtown. Everyone can and should co-exist harmoniously.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 26, 2013, 03:11:48 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 26, 2013, 02:15:16 PM
NRW: 2 block walk?!? In downtown? So a 2 block walk is the most you ever have to make in downtown Jacksonville? That is not a parking issue.
And rarely parking at On the Fly? It is in an empty parking lot, with street parking out front!
I re-read my post and realized I wasn't very clear. and the 'whole 2 block walk' was sarcasm. My point was that the parking outside of OTF is probably worse than the parking around Quizno's. The competitive advantage that OTF has is higher quality food.
Oh yeah, and OTF didn't roll out an advertising campaign using singing rats and a talking oven that molests employees. 8)
Also...
I'm guessing that you've never been to OTF, or you would have known that you can't use the parking lot that they're set up in and the street is normally full of cars for courthouse business.
Without getting into the real discussion here. The Quizno's oven commercial is one of my all time favorites. Not that it makes me want Quizno's but I laugh everytime I watch it.
Quote from: simms3 on February 26, 2013, 10:51:23 PM
I think city policy should balance the needs of the bricks and mortar businesses paying rent and taxes and having to deal with stricter regulations
Care to elaborate? The trucks have the same inspections as the B&Ms.
Quote from: JHAT76 on February 27, 2013, 07:54:03 AM
The Quizno's oven commercial is one of my all time favorites.
Why not?
http://www.youtube.com/v/7LQpRQh2KSQ
Quote from: stephendare on February 21, 2013, 09:49:23 AM
PeeJay. It is clear to anyone who reads this that you have never been downtown during lunch in your entire life.
As a frequent co-diner downtown with PeeJay, I can say that my experience is more similar to his than what you describe, Stephen Dare. I have used those 15 minute spaces multiple times for a quick lunch at the Desert Rider Sandwich Shop or Benny's under Forsyth street. Parking on Ocean is almost always open when I am going to Casa Dora or Burrito Gallery. I have parked on Adams more than once to go to Chomp Chomp and I have also used Adams to go to BG. I usually have more trouble parking on Hendricks when I go to High Tide than when I go to any of the places I just listed downtown. I have not been to OTF since the formal opening of the courthouse, but I ate there 2 or 3 times before the opening and never had a problem.
I never have a problem finding parking downtown at lunchtime. I just know to park a few blocks away from my destination and I am done. Always seems to be spots open on Ocean St, Forsyth near Ocean. East Adams St near Chomp Chomp.
I have Downtown for lunch a couple of times in the past two weeks and was able to park within two blocks. Seems like someone just wants to park right out front. Hmmm. How suburban auto centric.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 27, 2013, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: simms3 on February 26, 2013, 10:51:23 PM
I think city policy should balance the needs of the bricks and mortar businesses paying rent and taxes and having to deal with stricter regulations
Care to elaborate? The trucks have the same inspections as the B&Ms.
[/quote]
And, downtown food trucks pay rent (private propery owner, the City or DVI).
I had 10 minutes between meetings a few days ago and ran next door to Quiznos for the first time.
Certainly lived down to the hype.
Also, looks like Adams Street Deli has closed down.
Must have happened in the last day or two.
I wonder if they'll blame their closing on food trucks, the Barnett's reconstruction closing the sidewalk, or something else?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2018, 03:12:23 PM
I wonder if they'll blame their closing on food trucks, the Barnett's reconstruction closing the sidewalk, or something else?
Every experience I've ever had in Adams Street:
Me: "I'd like to order ______________."
Them: "I'm sorry, we're out of _____________."
Doesn't matter what.
Reuben? No corned beef.
Cuban? No pork, or swiss cheese.
Chicken salad? No chicken salad.
I'm convinced the Philly is the only thing they actually had the ingredients to make.
They also closed up shop at 1:00 PM a lot.
Nice people, poor execution.
Adams Street has not closed down. They were bought out and the new owner is remodeling.
Quote from: camarocane on March 14, 2018, 11:40:41 AM
Adams Street has not closed down. They were bought out and the new owner is remodeling.
Thanks for the info!
Set to become a Jewish/Kosher Deli. https://www.giliskitchen.com/
Quote from: Live_Oak on April 03, 2018, 09:27:02 AM
Set to become a Jewish/Kosher Deli. https://www.giliskitchen.com/
Just walked by, she's open:
(https://snag.gy/65cGt1.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2013, 11:15:22 AM
Lol, we really need to decide what type of city we want to be. At times I think that there are those who really don't want a truly vibrant urban core and are happy with the current existing environment.
It has been 5 years since this comment and nothing has changed in that time.
A City is just a means to a way of life. I have concluded Jax doesn't have any interest in becoming the type of city I want to live in and I for sure don't have the time to wait 20 more years to find out. I have to live here for 1 more year then it's probably time to move on.
Quote from: Kerry on May 20, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2013, 11:15:22 AM
Lol, we really need to decide what type of city we want to be. At times I think that there are those who really don't want a truly vibrant urban core and are happy with the current existing environment.
It has been 5 years since this comment and nothing has changed in that time.
A City is just a means to a way of life. I have concluded Jax doesn't have any interest in becoming the type of city I want to live in and I for sure don't have the time to wait 20 more years to find out. I have to live here for 1 more year then it's probably time to move on.
I'm interested, Kerry - what are you doing to change Jacksonville? I see you rip it to shreds on this message board, along with any new development or business, twice daily. I'm fine with criticism but criticizing every new proposal gets old. What have you done to change Jacksonville?
I spent my first year living in the Brooklyn neighborhood trying to get the City to uphold its own requirements with things like the new Gate station - which they didn't do of course. But really, what can I do? Short of running for office or developing property what other avenues are there besides community activist? Of course, the fact you even have to ask is indictive of the problem here in Jax. Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything. People in suburbia don't have to do anything to kerp the sprawl going.
Quote from: Kerry on May 21, 2018, 11:47:14 PM
I spent my first year living in the Brooklyn neighborhood trying to get the City to uphold its own requirements with things like the new Gate station - which they didn't do of course. But really, what can I do? Short of running for office or developing property what other avenues are there besides community activist? Of course, the fact you even have to ask is indictive of the problem here in Jax. Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything. People in suburbia don't have to do anything to kerp the sprawl going.
Kerry, I was at a similar juncture in Jax shortly after graduating from university. This was years ago, but I used to attend and speak up at Downtown Development Authority meetings, gawk at the colorful master plans and artists' renderings of made-for-TV urbanity, participate in the wide-eyed charrettes. At the same time, I was also very busy with my first professional job in public accounting, and really found it difficult to plug into real substantive efforts to transform downtown living in Jax. Unlike you, however, I wasn't living in the urban core - I was on the Southside; this was 2004, and downtown was even less inviting than it is now - in my opinion.
During a work assignment around that time, I spent 2 weeks in downtown Seattle and fell in love with the lifestyle and accesses i experienced during that project, and decided that I had to leave Jax. Seattle was too far from family, so I settled on New York City. I'm still here and I love it. But I don't love it for the initial reasons that drove me here. I love it because of the people I know and experience the city with, and the city happens to make it easy for us to have a great time together.
Of course, I took the simple path: ready-made, off-the-shelf, dense, amenity-rich living! Downtown Jax, like many other downtowns in America, requires a pioneering spirit, a sense of adventure and daring, and tons of imagination. Being a change agent comes with a ton of risk of disappointment, but can also present a ton of opportunity. Of course, a single person is pretty limited in what he can implement. Banding together with like-minded individuals with a bias toward action will be key, to start to see accomplishments at scale. Community matters, and being a part of a community advocating for and implementing the kind of downtown you all want will go a long way towards compensating for downtown Jacksonville's shortfalls.
Recently, I've read about Downtown Dwellers. Have you checked them out? They seem to be undertaking a grass-roots approach to re-branding downtown. As long as the biggest advocates for downtown sit in the mayor's office and city council and with the Chamber because they think some contrived image of downtown is what it takes to check the box on some Corporate RFP criteria list, it will always fall short. I don't live in Jax so I can't speak to everything going on there, but maybe a Best-of-Jax day where residents are encouraged to patronize establishments majority-owned in Jax ("Proprietarily Jax:)), Virtual Reality Game Room, Robotics Studio, BBQ Cook-Off, World's Largest Fish Fry (Someone once told me that Jax should be named the shrimp capital of the world), rodeo-style speedboating adventures on the St. Johns, air boat tours up McCoy's Creek, City-Wide Adult KickBall/Dodge-Ball Competitions, Downtown waterfront Outdoor Public Beer Garden during nice parts of the year given all the local craft breweries now, Monthly Digital Surveys among Downtown Business Owners to make sure their needs met and sentiment is strong...on and on and on
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 22, 2018, 08:33:41 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 21, 2018, 11:47:14 PM
Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything.
First, I applaud your decision to move if you have concluded that living in Jax (and I agree it isn't going to change enough for you in the near future) isn't for you. I am amazed that so many people don't have it in them to take a chance on making a change.
Second, this one of those most pathetic things I have ever seen typed.
My God, man, the guy is frustrated and is reaching out to the message board. I applaud him for living in Downtown Jax for a year. If downtown is to thrive, there must be a community to offer encouragement, hope and support. Why this message board needs to crucify people in their frustrations, I'll never know - especially someone who actually lives and spends money in the core.
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
For the record, I have lived in Brooklyn for nearly 3 years. I have poured nearly $60,000 into downtown in that time.
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2018, 09:37:27 AM
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole? What of downtown revitalization by force? The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.
Quote from: Kerry on May 22, 2018, 09:51:37 AM
For the record, I have lived in Brooklyn for nearly 3 years. I have poured nearly $60,000 into downtown in that time.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/JLELwGi2ksYTu/giphy.gif)
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2018, 09:37:27 AM
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole? What of downtown revitalization by force? The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.
As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.
Quote from: Adam White on May 22, 2018, 10:02:43 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2018, 09:37:27 AM
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole? What of downtown revitalization by force? The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.
As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.
Wow, seriously? You must be kidding. Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.
There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: Adam White on May 22, 2018, 10:02:43 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2018, 09:37:27 AM
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole? What of downtown revitalization by force? The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.
As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.
Wow, seriously? You must be kidding. Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?
I remember reading about it in the T-U (I think it was in the early/mid-90s when I was in university). I don't recall the specifics, but there was apparently a concerted effort to get businesses to leave downtown and go to the southside. I don't know what incentives were offered, but I believe tax breaks figured in.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 22, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.
There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
Did you even read my entire post? I didn't say Jax had to resemble Seattle or NYC. I gave Ken a realistic but upbeat outlook on being a downtown pioneer. And while Seattle or NYC may be at one end of a spectrum, it's not as though Jax is in the middle...it's at the other end-point of the spectrum and even moving away from that would represent a vast improvement. And I interpreted from Adam's post that Jax directly incentivized companies to pack up and leave downtown. That seems pretty extraordinary for a City Government wherein the 'burbs and core are consolidated in their oversight.
Quote from: Adam White on May 22, 2018, 10:16:41 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: Adam White on May 22, 2018, 10:02:43 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2018, 09:37:27 AM
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.
Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.
More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.
Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole? What of downtown revitalization by force? The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.
As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.
Wow, seriously? You must be kidding. Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?
I remember reading about it in the T-U (I think it was in the early/mid-90s when I was in university). I don't recall the specifics, but there was apparently a concerted effort to get businesses to leave downtown and go to the southside. I don't know what incentives were offered, but I believe tax breaks figured in.
I know of two major ones - Mayo Clinic, who was officially offered private land so I'm not sure the government kicked in a subsidy. Now, they were NEVER coming downtown. Their gig is suburban campuses (Rochester and Scottsdale).
Adam may be referencing AHL (now Allstate, at San Pablo and JTB). I had just moved here, but I seem to remember something happened with incentives.
I think it wasn't specifically "leave Downtown, go to the burbs". I think they were threatening to leave Jacksonville. That's a difficult decision - force them to stay downtown or have them leave, or secure them in the burbs?
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether." Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch. I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 11:19:47 AM
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether." Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch. I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.
https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/
Quote from: KenFSU on May 22, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 11:19:47 AM
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether." Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch. I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.
https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/
Yes! Exactly! By the way, the issue of tax incentives is in some way linked to my views on JEA. The idea of a community-owned endeavor that is in the business of converting raw inputs into a use that everyone can consume and benefit from, and that powers other value-add activities locally, is a very powerful idea. If, for whatever reason, global trade were to break down, the people of Jax (not just the rich or the well-heeled) own the productive means by which they and their communities are sustained.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 22, 2018, 11:46:49 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 22, 2018, 08:33:41 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 21, 2018, 11:47:14 PM
Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything.
First, I applaud your decision to move if you have concluded that living in Jax (and I agree it isn't going to change enough for you in the near future) isn't for you. I am amazed that so many people don't have it in them to take a chance on making a change.
Second, this one of those most pathetic things I have ever seen typed.
My God, man, the guy is frustrated and is reaching out to the message board. I applaud him for living in Downtown Jax for a year. If downtown is to thrive, there must be a community to offer encouragement, hope and support. Why this message board needs to crucify people in their frustrations, I'll never know - especially someone who actually lives and spends money in the core.
Not sure if a post that includes applauding one's decision making would qualify as "crucifying" but fine.
One of my *many* character flaws is a zero tolerance for whining/shifting responsibility by an adult. My experience is that excusing/enabling that type of attitude just leads to more of it.
However, I certainly see your point and thought you had an excellent response.Actually, I thought comparing our responses was rather amusing. But.....I have an unusual sense of humor.
I don't know Ken's balance sheet - but a downtown denizen with disposable income appears to be a very scarce resource in Jax. We must cherish and refurbish and safeguard it at all costs. He's just losing faith - we must tell him to keep it:). A pioneer today is a founding father tomorrow:).
Quote from: KenFSU on May 22, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 11:19:47 AM
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether." Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch. I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.
https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/
I very much doubt the city ever directly incentivized a company to leave downtown as such. We've done plenty of incentives to attract companies that have set up in the suburbs, however. In a few cases I can recall, that has included incentives for companies that had a presence downtown, to grow or add jobs in the suburbs. That may have added total jobs to the overall economy, but isn't good for downtown specifically. In 2011, we incentivized EverBank to move from the suburbs to Downtown.
Like most cities, we've also done plenty of indirect subsidies that have resulted in companies leaving Downtown. For instance JTB, which got public money, was in large part an effort to open up the adjacent land for development. New office buildings went up and various former downtown companies moved in. Of course, it also attracted a lot of new companies that wouldn't otherwise have come here.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 22, 2018, 12:06:59 PM
And a nice, helpful person like yourself would agree. But I am a selfish, Gordon Gekko worshiping ex-Masshole.
I think he should build up cash reserves, and get the blank out. Free Kerry!
(Just don't pack the whine.)
I'm starting to think that I've been on these boards too long. Maybe what I perceived to be Jaxnyc's defensiveness in another thread was actually perfectly reasonable on his part, and my interpretation of these conversations is warped by 11 years of getting to know you characters and hearing/seeing things through a dusty lens. #NotNormal
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 22, 2018, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 22, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.
There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
Did you even read my entire post? I didn't say Jax had to resemble Seattle or NYC. I gave Ken a realistic but upbeat outlook on being a downtown pioneer. And while Seattle or NYC may be at one end of a spectrum, it's not as though Jax is in the middle...it's at the other end-point of the spectrum and even moving away from that would represent a vast improvement. And I interpreted from Adam's post that Jax directly incentivized companies to pack up and leave downtown. That seems pretty extraordinary for a City Government wherein the 'burbs and core are consolidated in their oversight.
No I didn't read it. It wasn't in response to your's. It was a general thread comment.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 22, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.
There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
I'm not buying that. I've been to too many places bigger, smaller, same size, older, newer, same age, as Jax that are re-urbanizing. I can go down the list if you like: Omaha, Ashville, West Palm Beach, St Pete, Savannah, Greenville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Huntsville, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, Austin, Salt Lake City, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Wichita, etc. Heck, even little tiny places are doing it with gusto - Waycross, GA, and Monroe, LA, instantly come to mind.
I wouldn't call my actions 'whining'. I want the city to get it's freaking act together and start doing something productive because whatever they have been trying to do isn't working. If they have no interest in actually reviving downtown then they just need to say so.
There is a bunch of stuff the City could do to kick-start the process without needing any outside developers, magic football team owners, or corporations promising to be a game-changer.
1) Return downtown streets to 2-way.
2) Widen sidewalks
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
4) Install pay stations instead of meters
5) Put in a bike-share system
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites). At one time Jacksonville was a walled city. Heck, just paint a line on the ground where the wall was and a plaque explaining what it is. If the City gives me the paint I'll do it. Scratch that, I'll buy the paint and they can just agree not to arrest me for doing it.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 22, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.
There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
I'm not buying that. I've been to too many places bigger, smaller, same size, older, newer, same age, as Jax that are re-urbanizing. I can go down the list if you like: Omaha, Ashville, West Palm Beach, St Pete, Savannah, Greenville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Huntsville, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, Austin, Salt Lake City, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Wichita, etc. Heck, even little tiny places are doing it with gusto - Waycross, GA, and Monroe, LA, instantly come to mind.
I wouldn't call my actions 'whining'. I want the city to get it's freaking act together and start doing something productive because whatever they have been trying to do isn't working. If they have no interest in actually reviving downtown then they just need to say so.
While you are right that many of the places are seeing very strong downtown resurgence, that doesn't mean their suburbs aren't booming. I mean, WPB, St. Pete, and Fort Worth in particular are having crazy growth in the burbs.
It's not a one vs. the other. At least, it doesn't have to be.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites).
On these two, keep your eyes peeled.
People are going to be really impressed with what Lori Boyer is cooking up for Friendship Fountain and the Times-Union Center.
Speaking of Freindship Fountain.... it seems to be on a fast track to it's pre-renovation status. Lots of broken lights, fountain doesn't do much anymore. Haven't seen it on anything close to power in a long time.
Quote from: acme54321 on May 23, 2018, 10:38:42 AM
Speaking of Freindship Fountain.... it seems to be on a fast track to it's pre-renovation status. Lots of broken lights, fountain doesn't do much anymore. Haven't seen it on anything close to power in a long time.
Full restoration is coming.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 23, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites).
On these two, keep your eyes peeled.
People are going to be really impressed with what Lori Boyer is cooking up for Friendship Fountain and the Times-Union Center.
I hope so. The Fort Hatch group had to pay for their own marker.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
1) Return downtown streets to 2-way.
2) Widen sidewalks
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
4) Install pay stations instead of meters
5) Put in a bike-share system
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites).
1) Completely agree, and it's starting to happen (slowly). I think Broad/Jefferson/Main/Ocean/State/Union may never happen, but I think there's a chance everything else happens. To me the north-south is more of a priority, as at lease the east-west alternate well.
2) Careful with this one - they did this in the 90s at the expense of some on-street parking. That I'm not in favor of. I would be in favor of road diets in certain areas.
3) Amen
4) Meh....As long as they are the meters that take Credit Cards (which MOST of downtown has now), then I'm fine with this. Alternatively, because technology allows for a car to do a quick license plate scan to see if someone is over time, I'd be okay getting rid of the meters and going to this. But, not a huge fan of replacing one pay technology with another as long as the pay options are the same.
5) I think this would be great
6) This is more than a Downtown thing, but I do agree. Jacksonville doesn't embrace it's history at all, save for the fire and consolidation.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on May 23, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites).
On these two, keep your eyes peeled.
People are going to be really impressed with what Lori Boyer is cooking up for Friendship Fountain and the Times-Union Center.
I hope so. The Fort Hatch group had to pay for their own marker.
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on May 23, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Kerry on May 23, 2018, 09:48:46 AM
3) Allow food venders on the Riverwalk
6) Fund more historical markers (or even recreate some historic sites).
On these two, keep your eyes peeled.
People are going to be really impressed with what Lori Boyer is cooking up for Friendship Fountain and the Times-Union Center.
I hope so. The Fort Hatch group had to pay for their own marker.
$1 million already allocated, with additional funds possible.
Think bigger than marker.
Boyer is extremely serious about activating the riverfront, both day and night.
^Is the installation of vertical beams of light part of that plan? I remember her advocating for that before.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on May 23, 2018, 12:34:01 PM
^Is the installation of vertical beams of light part of that plan? I remember her advocating for that before.
Yep!
But beyond the beacons themselves, the main focus at the Times-Union Center and Friendship Fountain will be adding things to do to help make each spot a destination, rather than a pass-through.
The idea is for each spot to provide multiple activities, that can be enjoyed day or night, while touching on some aspect of the city's history.
In other words, the riverwalk becomes an active, rather than passive path, where you learn about the city as you go.
Both concepts are really cool, but the Times-Union Center is the one that's going to get people talking when the details are released.
Well color me cautiously optimistic then because Jax can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like no place I have ever seen.
As for parking meters vs pay stations. It depends how they do it. With a meter they designate a 20' parking spot to every meter. In Savannah they have pay stations and still designate a section of real estate to that numbered spot. However, in Oklahoma City you park your car where you can wedge it in. You only take up the physical space your car needs and 3 little cars can fit in the space 2 SUVs take up. The smaller your car the easier it is to find parking.