Metro Jacksonville

225 Laura Street: A Downtown Core Renovation Project

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1841930441_wJ48mw7-M.jpg)

Ron Chamblin of Chamblin's Uptown ponders the street level potential of his latest downtown project and asks for advice from Metro Jacksonville's readers.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-jan-225-laura-street-a-downtown-core-renovation-project-

Some very exciting plans you have laid out. I especially like the idea of breakfast on the weekends. Living in Springfield I would gladly come downtown for a good breakfast. Hope things go well for you.

So many restaurants and sandwich shops have come and gone from downtown, including the Landing, that I would think any food service would be extremely risky.  It seems that those who survive focus on breakfast and lunch as the center city is still a ghost town on week nights.  Might hedge your bet in the short term by having retail (I believe a small convenience/cigar/newsstand would do well) occupy half the bottom floor and simply expand the bookstore coffee/sandwich shop into the other half. 

Quote from: Mr. Charleston on January 28, 2013, 07:13:59 AM
So many restaurants and sandwich shops have come and gone from downtown, including the Landing, that I would think any food service would be extremely risky.  It seems that those who survive focus on breakfast and lunch as the center city is still a ghost town on week nights.  Might hedge your bet in the short term by having retail (I believe a small convenience/cigar/newsstand would do well) occupy half the bottom floor and simply expand the bookstore coffee/sandwich shop into the other half. 

Interesting option Mr. Charleston.  Of course, Scotties and the new 7-Eleven cover to some degree the convenience store needs.  They might also sell cigars too.  And in my opinon, the newstand, with newspapers and magazines would have survived up until about 15 years ago.  The internet is encroaching into this market more each year.  But you've opened a little window into the idea of splitting the space into two 15' wide spots.  Good input.  That's what is needed now.  I really would like to arrive at the "best" use of the space via this discussion, as I am rather limited in the creativity area.  I think I'm okay with gut feelings, and with project realization once the goal has been set, but I'm in need of ideas as to "the" best use of the space. 

I would discourage changing anything to do with current coffee shop in the book store. People are creatures of habit and have taken up uptown. The food and service are great and the business has established it's own identity. To move it now would put unnecessary risk on it. If there is to be learned from King Street it is that multiple businesses, even if the properties are under the same owner, creates synergy. Creating an are of dense business with there own character is what turn downtown around is all about. I would love to see a nice 10-15 dollar range restaurant be put in that location. Now that a Brazilian restaurant just went in it would be nice for another ethic cuisine place, pulling from your own cultural background. Another choice would be to offer regionally relevant dishes, i.e. minorcan clam chowder. My only hope is that you stay open all day and by doing so challenge the other downtown establishments to do so. Maybe the girls working at uptown want a few more hours. You could send them next door to do a dinner shift. I'm sure they wouldn't mind that option.

Before even getting to the use of the first floor, I found myself wondering if the Historic Tax options had been explored.  As it was built in 1904 and as it seems it was always first floor commercial and two floors residential, can you qualify for Landmark status?  If so, then you also have available the tax credits that if you can't use them yourself, you can indeed sell to help reduce the cost of the renovation.  I think that while most think that the larger, more architecturally significant buildings are what should be landmarks, the little everyday type buildings are just as important to the urban core, downtown in this case, and so need to be considered important enough to save and protect as well. 

As already stated, restaurants are so risky that including one in a plan to insure you can make the payments seems, well, too risky.  It just appears that your first priority is to find a way to reduce the renovation costs and future ownership costs so that you have more options with funding the payments.

Quote from: Mathew1056 on January 28, 2013, 07:56:15 AM
I would discourage changing anything to do with current coffee shop in the book store. People are creatures of habit and have taken up uptown. The food and service are great and the business has established it's own identity. To move it now would put unnecessary risk on it. If there is to be learned from King Street it is that multiple businesses, even if the properties are under the same owner, creates synergy. Creating an are of dense business with there own character is what turn downtown around is all about. I would love to see a nice 10-15 dollar range restaurant be put in that location. Now that a Brazilian restaurant just went in it would be nice for another ethic cuisine place, pulling from your own cultural background. Another choice would be to offer regionally relevant dishes, i.e. minorcan clam chowder. My only hope is that you stay open all day and by doing so challenge the other downtown establishments to do so. Maybe the girls working at uptown want a few more hours. You could send them next door to do a dinner shift. I'm sure they wouldn't mind that option.

I too am inclined to keep the small bookstore café as it is.  And the full breakfast and an interesting lunch menu is currently high on my list.  The evening dinner success, at this time of low evening downtown population, might get off to a slow start.  Although I realize that “doing” the evening operation must be done in any case, if we are to encourage the synergy you speak of.  The good thing is that we can always hire more workers to work the evenings.  Even now, we get each day, one or two job applications. 

As I type, I’m preparing to visit for the first time, the Uptown Market on Main St. to get some ideas about layout and breakfast.  I’ll be back to continue the conversation later.  Thanks for the input Matthew.

And Strider..... I'll be back soon from breakfast at Uptown.  I'll read your post there, and respond when I return. 

If it were me, I'd just move the mini-cafe part that's currently in Chamblin's & make it into a full fledged coffee shop/house in the new space. That's one thing downtown desperately needs IMO.

Ron,
Have you considered a small grocery store in the space that maybe has a counter for food in it? I am not sure if the space would accomodate both, but if you had at least a  small grocer with local, perhaps even organic produce, and a selction of other foods, you would probably be  appealing at least to your renters as they can just come downstairs and shop. Not to mention the countless other downtown people craving any space that sells food they can take home.

Firearms and ammunition store.

#WINNING!

Quote from: strider on January 28, 2013, 08:06:40 AM
Before even getting to the use of the first floor, I found myself wondering if the Historic Tax options had been explored.  As it was built in 1904 and as it seems it was always first floor commercial and two floors residential, can you qualify for Landmark status?  If so, then you also have available the tax credits that if you can't use them yourself, you can indeed sell to help reduce the cost of the renovation.  I think that while most think that the larger, more architecturally significant buildings are what should be landmarks, the little everyday type buildings are just as important to the urban core, downtown in this case, and so need to be considered important enough to save and protect as well. 

As already stated, restaurants are so risky that including one in a plan to insure you can make the payments seems, well, too risky.  It just appears that your first priority is to find a way to reduce the renovation costs and future ownership costs so that you have more options with funding the payments.

Strider.... I checked on the historic aspect two years ago, and hope I made the right decision to bypass what I assumed to be a lot of paperwork and "stuff" to gain anything substantial from it.  I do want to keep the building front exactly as it is however, with the exception perhaps of an awning.  And regarding the financing....the loan figure of $800,000 is too high for my situation, and therefore I will have to contribute cash to reduce it at least by $200,000.  This reduction ability might come selling my house located on the river in Fleming Island, which is currently being occupied by three formerly homeless persons, two being former occasional Hemming Park occupiers.  For convenience, and to avoid the long drive, I live in the rear of the bookstore.  These days, all I need for a good life is a hot shower every day, clean bed clothes, clean clothes, a little food, books to read, an old Ford to drive, and Metrojax to enjoy and debate within.

But yes, I agree that the two priorities is to reduce the amount borrowed in the first place, thereby reducing the payments, and then to establish the business within the space giving the greatest probability of success.  Will it be a restaurant?  Let's see what is suggested by others.

Quote from: Dapperdan on January 28, 2013, 08:44:11 AM
Ron,
Have you considered a small grocery store in the space that maybe has a counter for food in it? I am not sure if the space would accomodate both, but if you had at least a  small grocer with local, perhaps even organic produce, and a selction of other foods, you would probably be  appealing at least to your renters as they can just come downstairs and shop. Not to mention the countless other downtown people craving any space that sells food they can take home.

DD... It's 30 wide at the mouth, being about 2,000 sq. ft.  This might at first sound like a good idea but what would happen when, finally, a moderate sized grocery/produce space opens up? 

Quote from: buckethead on January 28, 2013, 08:57:26 AM
Firearms and ammunition store.

#WINNING!

Surely you're joking Mr. Feynman.  But actually, if the time was a decade or two ago, before we realized that guns can be used too easily to kill people, especially if they are scattered all over the landscape much like weeds upon the grass, it might be a good idea.  But thanks, I'll have to pass on this opportunity.

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 28, 2013, 10:22:50 AM

Quote from: Dapperdan on January 28, 2013, 08:44:11 AM
Ron,
Have you considered a small grocery store in the space that maybe has a counter for food in it? I am not sure if the space would accomodate both, but if you had at least a  small grocer with local, perhaps even organic produce, and a selction of other foods, you would probably be  appealing at least to your renters as they can just come downstairs and shop. Not to mention the countless other downtown people craving any space that sells food they can take home.

DD... It's 30 wide at the mouth, being about 2,000 sq. ft.  This might at first sound like a good idea but what would happen when, finally, a moderate sized grocery/produce space opens up? 

You'll basically be forced to close when whatever goes in the rumored Fresh Market spot in Brooklyn opens in Spring 2014.

I looked at the property with a few friends shortly before you purchased the property, Ron, and it looked like a great investment.

Our plan was to leave Gus' shoes in the first floor for the time being, initially demo and clean up the top two floors to be leased out to artists for sleeping and studio space.  Once the real estate market improved, we were going to develop the top 2 floors into 2 units a piece for lease and future condo conversion.  This was before the huge surge towards multi-family development and before some of the progress downtown that has occured over the past 18 months.  Once the top two floors were finished, we were going to address the first floor.  Our timing was based on the Laura Trio project being completed by the time we had finished the apartments so that we could have a better idea of what the area still needs.  More than likely, at least one of the partners involved would have moved into one of the apartments upstairs.

It has been wonderful reading about your progress in the project and it's great to be able to see what a hypothetical for us looks like in the actual process.  I think that a restaurant would be high risk/high reward, but there is plenty of evidence that a well executed concept can thrive downtown even in the worst markets.  Look at Burrito Gallery, Olio, Zodiac, etc......

Ron, I think if you really go back and research it, you will find you are making a mistake in not pursuing tax credits.  The federal tax credits have actually enabled many to renovate structures that otherwise would have been lost.  I know of cases where the sale of the tax credits has actually paid a substantial part of the rehab expense.  Each case is different but the potential is there and large enough to justify the paperwork. If you don't have the time, hire someone to do it.

We were also going to pursue one of the Laura Street facade grants from DVI when we were looking at the property.  I don't think that money was ever spent and they have gone well beyond the timing deadline with the landing, so maybe they could with you as well. 

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 10:06:41 AM
From what I understand, there is a possible ten year timeline on this project?

Is that accurate?

If so, wouldn't it be a better idea to either partner with someone else or find a different developer for the project?

I hope it's not accurate, that there is not a ten year time limit.  In any case, I must do things according to my time and money constraints.  I agree that getting a partner with enough money would be a great way to speed up the process of developing the property, but I've always avoided partnerships, which, as I think about it, has a lot to do with why I'm still in business, and one reason why I've expanded overall through the years.

Although many partnerships do quite well, I recommend that all business persons avoid partnerships if at all possible, as one never knows the mental developments over time within the mind of the partner.

And as for finding another developer...... well.... the building sat for many years without anyone purchasing it, or developing it.  And if I did not purchase it in April of last year, it probably would still be sitting there.  As it is, as soon as I complete another construction project, we are going to begin the cleanout and limited demo within weeks.  In fact, if another project had not taken my time and money, I would already be well along on this building.  I suspect that even if I offered the building for sale, no new developer would come to it's rescue. 

Look at all the buildings sitting in our core, with no developers.  The only reason I'm able to "do" this building is because it is small enough for me, "and" it is small enough so that during these depressed times in the core, it can still produce an income, with the right business within.  That's the problem with the larger buildings, such as the Barnett etc.  They are too big to be profitable in the core at this time.  In order for anyone to develop these giants, millions would have to be invested to ensure enough income from them.  On these large buildings, who has the money, the plan, and the wish to risk?  There is not enough ongoing vibrancy/population in the core to invite development of the large buildings.  All we can do now is "work" the smaller projects through to income producers.   

But... you will see my good friend Stephen, the project will soon begin to take shape. Be patient with me.  I suspect that just as you can "smell, feel, and live" the restaurant business, among others perhaps, and therefore you have great confidence in "doing" them, I can "smell, feel, and live" projects such as this, just as some others here on MJ can do.  Therefore, there is sound cause for confidence within me on things like this, even when I don't have, for a time, the money to push aggressively ahead with them.

But... yes, if there was a time limit, I would be in trouble.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 11:07:40 AM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 28, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
We were also going to pursue one of the Laura Street facade grants from DVI when we were looking at the property.  I don't think that money was ever spent and they have gone well beyond the timing deadline with the landing, so maybe they could with you as well.

Actually I think Ron has already taken advantage of the facade grant for his tables out front.  Some of the money has been spent.  I bet Riverside Planner could fill us in on the progress of the facade funds....

Although Ron is more than capable of speaking for himself, he used the facade grant funds for a pretty spectacular mural over Chamblins which will be painted by Shaun Thurston starting in February.  If you are downtown, watching Shaun's progress throughout this process will make for quite the enjoyable lunch break.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 11:07:40 AM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 28, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
We were also going to pursue one of the Laura Street facade grants from DVI when we were looking at the property.  I don't think that money was ever spent and they have gone well beyond the timing deadline with the landing, so maybe they could with you as well.

Actually I think Ron has already taken advantage of the facade grant for his tables out front.  Some of the money has been spent.  I bet Riverside Planner could fill us in on the progress of the facade funds....

An email from DVI to me earlier this month. 

QuoteWe started with 12 buildings that were eligible for the grant program.  We had 9 owners agree to become involved with the program (now 8 since Ron has purchased Gus’ shoe store).   Of the 8 available 100 Laura Street, Wells Fargo and Chamblin’s are in the process of completing their plans â€" hopefully in the next month.  The other five are still in the process of finalizing their plans.

We want all work to be completed by the end of March â€" in time for One Spark.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
Four of them within a block of the building in fact.

Sweet! Which places?

Just playing devil's advocate here;  if I were a tenant, the thought of moving in/out all my belongings when there is only one stairway for everyone to use would scare me off - logistically speaking.  If I were trying to push a sofa upstairs and my neighbors wanted to come down the stairs, you see where that's going.  Perhaps I misunderstand.  A suggestion for something to fill the storefront - as you already have a cafe in the Bookmine, and there is one next door, how about a little neighborhood grocery store, for convenience?  Somebody could run downstairs and pick up whatever they needed, and people nearby could do that on the way home from the office.  Some meats, fresh veggies, staples, a few drugstore type items, laundry soap...nothing huge.  What a dream to have a little mom & pop store.  Wonder if Julie of the Julie's Urban Grocery store would consider something like that, minus her original plans for delivery service?  Thanks for asking for input and thanks for listening.  Whatever you do I know it will be awesome. 

We're no Brooklyn, N.Y. but, this would look nice...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/93sportie/2012-03-23090638.jpg)

Ron Chamblin is a generous and kind man dedicated to the sustained development of downtown.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
Ive done more than my fair share of renovations and rehabs in urban environments as well.  Four of them within a block of the building in fact.

I don't doubt that the building would be unpurchased, from the experience of everyone who ever tried to purchase the building from its former owners over the decades.

But there is another side of that coin as well, and that is the slow rot of a building left unused for years.  And perhaps a little discomfort with partners would be worth the money difference in renovating now vs ten years from now.

I am glad to hear that you have experience rehabbing apartments and residential units, it was something I didnt know.  Based on your experience with renting out apartments, what kind of residents are you going to appeal to in the upstairs apartments?

The Laura Street Facade Grant has been used by me so far to install new tile over the ugly concrete in the entrance and patio, plus the four new tables/umbrellas/chairs out front ($1,600 or so). The Thurston mural will be started within weeks. 
I might have a little left on the $10K grant money.  The Thurston mural takes the largest segment of it.  The use of facade money on the 225 building would be a little shaky, as it will be renovated soon.  I cannot think of a facade change we could do with the grant money, which would not be impacted or covered up by the renovation.

The use of other's money sounds inviting Stephen, but my fear of partnerships exceeds my desire for the assistance from anyone other than a bank.  As far as the residents to which I will appeal regarding the upper apartments..... ?? I'm simply going to build some nice layouts, offer moderate rents, and see what happens.  Given the central location, I expect good interest.  I have absolutely no experience renting out apartments.  It should be interesting.



"Water boils faster when Chuck Norris watches it."

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 11:45:38 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here;  if I were a tenant, the thought of moving in/out all my belongings when there is only one stairway for everyone to use would scare me off - logistically speaking.  If I were trying to push a sofa upstairs and my neighbors wanted to come down the stairs, you see where that's going.  Perhaps I misunderstand.

So the 5 minutes where you might prevent someone from coming down the stairs would cause you not to live there for an entire year?  Having seen the property, the views of Hemming and the Snyder memorial alone are worth the price of rent.  I'll pay whoever moves into the 3rd floor front unit $10 just to let me look out over the park for 5 minutes every so often.

Captain Zissou, you are mistaking me for a physically fit superhuman - only 5 minutes to push a sofa upstairs?   ;D

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
Captain Zissou, you are mistaking me for a physically fit superhuman - only 5 minutes to push a sofa upstairs?   ;D

How many segments are there to moving a sofa up the stairs? You pick it up and go. Either you can lift it the required height for the necessary amount of time or you can't. Were you planning to lift it halfway, go to Chamblins for a cup of coffee, grab lunch, maybe hit Bed Bath and Beyond (if you have time), then come back and finish the job?

Ron: I'll be interested in renting when the time comes...

Quote from Stephen Dare:

"Ah.  sounds like youve a history of negative experience with partners. ron.   They arent for everyone.  And they certainly arent for some.

Perhaps you will find good luck with the Banks.  They seem to be in a generous mood."

Actually, I don't have negative experiences, but my imagination allows me to conjure up horrible possibilities with partnerships.  Knowing how people change, the divorces and tragedies possible, the descents into depressions, and the possible flights to wild heights of greed...... I would try all other things before I would engage a partner. 

Just as our single mind allows us humans to walk efficiently and successfully in only one direction at a time, and as a benevolent and wise dictator of a nation can efficiently make the best decisions for the citizens of his country, having the ideal of a single mind to make decisions for a business can best guarantee the absence of argument, the sole intent of business success, and the lack of inefficiencies due to non-action, when action should be.

But Stephen, I must admit.... sometimes the only way to do a project is with a partner, either because of the partner's money assets, or because the project could succeed only with the mental and creative abilities of the potential partner. 

PeeJayEss.... Sure.  I don't know who you are, but if you are still interested as we move along, get with me.



"Chuck Norris does not leave messages.  Chuck Norris leaves warnings."

peestandingup
Today at 08:37:14 AM
If it were me, I'd just move the mini-cafe part that's currently in Chamblin's & make it into a full fledged coffee shop/house in the new space. That's one thing downtown desperately needs IMO.

Ron, while the Bookmine does in fact already serve coffee, there has been a glaring hole in the options for coffee downtown. While retail options such as Starbucks have an appeal because of name recognition and a level of familiarity, most people downtown would prefer local businesses that are starting to emerge as local successes. For example, the growing popularity of Bold City and Intuition beers are being seen by more bars around town serving them on tap. In that spirit, just a thought, how about reaching out to a local group like Bold Bean and having a coffee bar there that serves Bold Bean coffee. Set it up as a cafe geared towards being a great place to read your books, and while you're at it, what if you worked out a contract with 3 Layer's and have them bring in certain coffee cakes and other light snacks. It satisfies a need to have a good coffee shop downtown for day to day needs, fosters an environment to bring even more traffic to the bookshop and fuses three great Jacksonville local favorites.

Quote from: taylormiller on January 28, 2013, 01:43:51 PM
peestandingup
Today at 08:37:14 AM
If it were me, I'd just move the mini-cafe part that's currently in Chamblin's & make it into a full fledged coffee shop/house in the new space. That's one thing downtown desperately needs IMO.

Ron, while the Bookmine does in fact already serve coffee, there has been a glaring hole in the options for coffee downtown. While retail options such as Starbucks have an appeal because of name recognition and a level of familiarity, most people downtown would prefer local businesses that are starting to emerge as local successes. For example, the growing popularity of Bold City and Intuition beers are being seen by more bars around town serving them on tap. In that spirit, just a thought, how about reaching out to a local group like Bold Bean and having a coffee bar there that serves Bold Bean coffee. Set it up as a cafe geared towards being a great place to read your books, and while you're at it, what if you worked out a contract with 3 Layer's and have them bring in certain coffee cakes and other light snacks. It satisfies a need to have a good coffee shop downtown for day to day needs, fosters an environment to bring even more traffic to the bookshop and fuses three great Jacksonville local favorites.

The weight of opinion has shifted back and forth between leaving the little coffee shop in the bookstore open and having a larger breakfast/lunch place next door, "or" closing the smaller bookstore cafe, and shifting all coffee/food assets to the larger place at the 225 street level location.  The latter decision would still allow us to keep the tables in the front of the bookstore, the table in the patio, and the tables on the sidewalk, with the added advantage of having more space for bookshelves. 

And yes, I agree about utilizing any excellent coffees and pastries produced locally.  I hope to use this new project to establish a level of quality which will guarantee a high volume of customers, which is the only way to really ensure the overall success of the renovation, including the ability to pay off any loans.


"Chuck Norris once visited the Virgin Islands.  Shortly thereafter, they were renamed The Islands."

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 28, 2013, 12:57:12 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
Ive done more than my fair share of renovations and rehabs in urban environments as well.  Four of them within a block of the building in fact.

I don't doubt that the building would be unpurchased, from the experience of everyone who ever tried to purchase the building from its former owners over the decades.

But there is another side of that coin as well, and that is the slow rot of a building left unused for years.  And perhaps a little discomfort with partners would be worth the money difference in renovating now vs ten years from now.

I am glad to hear that you have experience rehabbing apartments and residential units, it was something I didnt know.  Based on your experience with renting out apartments, what kind of residents are you going to appeal to in the upstairs apartments?

The Laura Street Facade Grant has been used by me so far to install new tile over the ugly concrete in the entrance and patio, plus the four new tables/umbrellas/chairs out front ($1,600 or so). The Thurston mural will be started within weeks. 
I might have a little left on the $10K grant money.  The Thurston mural takes the largest segment of it.  The use of facade money on the 225 building would be a little shaky, as it will be renovated soon.  I cannot think of a facade change we could do with the grant money, which would not be impacted or covered up by the renovation.

The use of other's money sounds inviting Stephen, but my fear of partnerships exceeds my desire for the assistance from anyone other than a bank.  As far as the residents to which I will appeal regarding the upper apartments..... ?? I'm simply going to build some nice layouts, offer moderate rents, and see what happens.  Given the central location, I expect good interest.  I have absolutely no experience renting out apartments.  It should be interesting.



"Water boils faster when Chuck Norris watches it."

Put in gas cooktops in the kitchens and watch the rental applications pour in. Not sure why gas is such anathema in this town.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 02:48:32 PM
Well Im for anything that doesnt take ten years to do, Ron.

I think thats the most important thing.

And if you cant get bank financing and don't want to take partners, then what is your plan?

Ten years?  I agree….. that’s too long.  That’s why I’m glad my project, once started, will take only around two years.  My 215 N. Laura Street project, the bookstore/café building, took me two years and four months from purchase to opening.  That time includes the six months in the beginning when I did almost nothing to the building.  Therefore, one could say that once started, the 215 building took me less than two years.

Not having the assets to do more than one semi-major project at a time, I have delayed starting the 225 project, and probably will not begin any work until April.  Therefore, if the two year duration for the project is realized, I will finish it in the spring of 2015.

Of course, the most important thing is not the objective of finishing a project within a set period.  The most important thing is to finish it.  The second most important thing is to finish it within a reasonable amount of time.  Two years is within reason in my view.

A bank loan?  Given my background of having paid every penny I’ve owed to all creditors for over fifty years, of never failing in a business, of consistently expanding in my current business for almost forty years while many others in the same business have failed….. I think any reasonable bank will seriously entertain a loan to me for the project.

Although I’ve suggested that the loan might be as high as $800,000, further thought allows me to say that two things will allow the loan to be less.  The first is that I will be able to do more of the preliminary work on the project myself, using my own money, than I had at first thought.  And secondly,  I anticipate selling my house so that I can contribute perhaps $200,000 additional to the project.  Therefore the loan might be as low as $400K to $500K.

In any case, thanks for the questions Stephen, but somehow, I am confident about the project.  My plan?  I have the same attitude as many people do about things like this…… which is simply that … “For many of us, no matter what some mediocrities or idiots place in front of us, we will force the son-of-a-bitch to completion.”   How or why?  Through the same process that allows many people to finish projects.  I can see within my mind the entire process of renovation, from beginning to end, with all the details.


Chuck Norris once ate an entire factory of sleeping pills.  They made him blink.     
   

@Ron,

I've been following this thread all morning and will continue to follow the project as it moves ahead. 

I'm only commenting to give you kudos for the random Chuck Norris signatures, but it leaves me with only one question:

If Chuck Norris is such a badass, then why aren't there any Bruce Lee jokes? 






Bruce Lee is no fucking joke.    ;D

Looking forward to the rest of what follows.

I'm so stoked about this! Chamblins is awesome just as it is, with one exception...It's not always open when I think it's going to be. I'm sure you will do a great job next door. If you have good food, good hours, and wine and beer I think you will do very well. I truly believe that downtown restaurants would all do well if they worked together and kept similar hours i.e. everybody stayed open on Friday and Saturday nights. This means without fail. Adding more restaurants would also help, as people like options when going out for a meal. This is why Avondale works so well. It only takes a few failed attempts at grabbing a coffee early or a meal late downtown until you go elsewhere. The Urban Core has the strangest hours for these things, too much focus is placed on lunch only. I wish you all the best, and am looking forward to what you come up with.

P.S. I'd suggest something like The Grotto in San Marco.

I'm not a business owner but a few places that seem to do very well Down Town are Burrito Gallery, Indochine, and Dos Gatos to name a few.

The reason I feel these places do well is they offer great tasting unique items at good prices with great service. I know I'm being very general with these but if you hit those three points you should do well.

I think if you offered a great breakfast meals with fast service (Which isn't offered Downtown), a great lunch menu and had beer and wine available at night you could do quite well.

Thanks NW Westsider, Kreger, and TPC for the input.  It's all good for digesting.

And for that.... some more Norris items:

"If Chuck Norris looks at you and even thinks about Jesus, you are immediately converted to Christianity."

"Bill Gates lives in constant fear that Chuck Norris's PC will crash."

"Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer.  Too bad he has never cried."

Peejayass #34:  Wow...really?  Were you waiting around just to pounce on someone?  Glad I could provide that opportunity for you to show your ass.  One day when you are elderly and infirm, may you find out how difficult it would be to do things (like moving a sofa) all by yourself.  Karma is a scary thing. 

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
Peejayass #34:  Wow...really?  Were you waiting around just to pounce on someone?  Glad I could provide that opportunity for you to show your ass.  One day when you are elderly and infirm, may you find out how difficult it would be to do things (like moving a sofa) all by yourself.  Karma is a scary thing.

(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 28, 2013, 08:45:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

“The deadliest bullshit is odorless and transparent”

William Gibson quotes (American writer of science fiction, b.1948)

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
Peejayass #34:  Wow...really?  Were you waiting around just to pounce on someone?  Glad I could provide that opportunity for you to show your ass.  One day when you are elderly and infirm, may you find out how difficult it would be to do things (like moving a sofa) all by yourself.  Karma is a scary thing.

I had already posted in this thread, so I clearly was not waiting to pounce. I was simply illustrating that I thought your concern was unrealistic and likely not shared by others. There aren't many people that can move a sofa by themselves, whether infirm or not, never mind up a set of stairs. If I am elderly and infirm some day, and trying to move a sofa upstairs by myself, I sure do hope someone stops me. In fact, if I tried to do that now, I would hope someone coming down the steps would stop me (after questioning the sanity of my attempt).

Karma certainly is a scary thing to the superstitious. I guess it also doesn't take into account childish name-calling or delighting at karmic retribution.

Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2013, 08:58:40 PM
Well its probably important to the person doing the project to eventually finish I suppose.  The neighboring community may have different goals or timetables to get them excited.

What neighboring community? The community has stared at the building while it dropped into disrepair for years, doing nothing with it and everything around it. Someone takes the risk and purchases it with the intent to improve it, and the progress is not fast enough? If that is the attitude of the "community," then who cares what they think?

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
Peejayass #34:  Wow...really?  Were you waiting around just to pounce on someone?  Glad I could provide that opportunity for you to show your ass.  One day when you are elderly and infirm, may you find out how difficult it would be to do things (like moving a sofa) all by yourself.  Karma is a scary thing.

(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 28, 2013, 08:45:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:52:57 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 28, 2013, 08:45:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

“The deadliest bullshit is odorless and transparent”

William Gibson quotes (American writer of science fiction, b.1948)

"I don't know what we're yelling about!" - Brick Tamland

Quote from: PeeJayEss on January 29, 2013, 10:56:21 AM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM

Quote from: sandyshoes on January 28, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
Peejayass #34:  Wow...really?  Were you waiting around just to pounce on someone?  Glad I could provide that opportunity for you to show your ass.  One day when you are elderly and infirm, may you find out how difficult it would be to do things (like moving a sofa) all by yourself.  Karma is a scary thing.

(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 28, 2013, 08:45:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:52:57 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 28, 2013, 08:45:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on January 28, 2013, 08:35:38 PM
(Karma is a scary thing) How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
- Wayne Dyer  ;)

"Yes, well that's very cute, but you're running this thread like a bunch of bullsh!t. ~ Dave Moss

(Yes.  There's a quote for everything, huh.)   ;)

“The deadliest bullshit is odorless and transparent”

William Gibson quotes (American writer of science fiction, b.1948)

"I don't know what we're yelling about!" - Brick Tamland

"Great Scott!" ~ Doc Brown

I agree with you and several of the others about keeping the cafe in the bookstore. For at least 3 years, my husband and I have thought that a restuarant on the ground floor with apartments upstairs would be perfect for this building (we went so far as to tour the building with a real estate agent and realized it was too big of an undertaking for us). Our inspiration came from an article in Dwell magazine about a building very similar to yours. The restaurant in the article has glass garage doors that can be opened when the weather is pleasant. I believe I still have that edition so I'll locate the info on the article for you and either forward the details RE that issue so you can locate it online or make a copy and drop it off at Chamblin's this week.

A restaurant would be great there, though I'm sure would be a lot of work and risk if you haven't run one before.

I'd really encourage you to consider things we couldn't get much of anywhere else in town. For example, Bold Bean took a pretty simple concept - a real coffee shop - and ran away with it, and turned it into something you can't get anywhere else in NE Florida. I'd love to see something that cool right next to the coolest bookstore in the state.

You're right Tacachale, in that I'm not a restaurant person.  That's why, if I were to do a restaurant there, I would hire the right person to operate it, find the best inputs to arrive at the right type, style, ambiance, menus, layout etc.  I will of course, do my own research by visiting other restaurants, research books on layouts, invite ideas from all types of people with experience operating restaurants. 

The idea would be to arrive at the best kind for the area.  The good thing is that I have months to make decisions.  I realize that I will have to pay the "main person" who operates the restaurant a good salary, perhaps even a percentage of the net, in order to achieve and maintain the excellence I envision we must have in order to be successful in the long run. 

No matter what we do, we must not open a mediocre, poorly thought out operation.  Given the time we have, there is no excuse for failing to create a place that will be a success, and a big draw for the area.  I cannot except mediocrity under the circumstances.  The bottom floor will be gutted completely within months.  Seldom do operators have an opportunity to design the perfect layout, beginning with a gutted building.

So far, a unique restaurant is on the table, although a large coffee roaster operation is too, similar to Bold Bean.  However, the latter, in my opinion will not offer as much revenue as would a place offering a full breakfast, an excellent lunch menu, and later, a unique evening menu for the area.  Given the space available, we could of course, install a coffee roasting operation to the side.  However, if so, it must enhance the overall concept, whatever that ends up being.  The good thing is that we will be able to use the tables in the bookstore, the bookstore patio, and the those on the sidewalk, which is about 24 tables, along with the 15 to 20 tables inside the new operation.  I would like to see a baking operation within, giving an ability similar to the old Worman's.

There are so many options.  Let's hope that a few months will allow arrival at the best.     

Where are you at right now Stephen, because I'm going to find you and kick your ass. ;D

Somehow, i feel like Chuck Norris tonight.

Ghosts are actually caused by Chuck Norris killing people faster than Death can process them.

Quote from: KPD on January 29, 2013, 11:16:40 AM
I agree with you and several of the others about keeping the cafe in the bookstore. For at least 3 years, my husband and I have thought that a restuarant on the ground floor with apartments upstairs would be perfect for this building (we went so far as to tour the building with a real estate agent and realized it was too big of an undertaking for us). Our inspiration came from an article in Dwell magazine about a building very similar to yours. The restaurant in the article has glass garage doors that can be opened when the weather is pleasant. I believe I still have that edition so I'll locate the info on the article for you and either forward the details RE that issue so you can locate it online or make a copy and drop it off at Chamblin's this week.

KPD.. the article should be interesting.  I too, think, at this point, that it is best to keep the current small coffee/veggie shop in the bookstore, as many people seem to like the "light" lunches, soups, bagels,etc.  And if we do install a baking ability next door, we can simply walk the fresh pastries and cake over to the coffee shop. 


"When God and Satan play a game of football, Chuck Norris is the field they play upon."

Actually Stephen, the idea occured to me that you might like to do a consulting project, for pay of course, and somewhat informal, concerning the proposed restaurant next door.  If you thought you might, you could take a little time to think about it, as if it was your building, and your restaurant.  In other words, you could decide what "you" would do in my position.

This would be valuable to me, as, surely you've the experience, and being in the area longer than me, you could "feel" the enviroment and arrive, via gut input, at an opinion as to what type of operation would be best for the location.

Take some time to think about it; that is, if you would, for reasonable compensation, like to offer advice, and a concept, as if "you" were to proceed with it.


"Chuck Norris once ripped a man in half just to see what he had for lunch."     

Love the restaurant idea, although I'd ditch the in-store coffee counter and replace the in-store tables with couches and comfy reading stuff.  If folks want food they can run right next door and either bring food back or eat there.

Quote from: stephendare on January 30, 2013, 12:22:30 AM

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 30, 2013, 12:15:45 AM
Actually Stephen, the idea occured to me that you might like to do a consulting project, for pay of course, and somewhat informal, concerning the proposed restaurant next door.  If you thought you might, you could take a little time to think about it, as if it was your building, and your restaurant.  In other words, you could decide what "you" would do in my position.

This would be valuable to me, as, surely you've the experience, and being in the area longer than me, you could "feel" the enviroment and arrive, via gut input, at an opinion as to what type of operation would be best for the location.

Take some time to think about it; that is, if you would, for reasonable compensation, like to offer advice, and a concept, as if "you" were to proceed with it.


"Chuck Norris once ripped a man in half just to see what he had for lunch."     

Thanks for the offer, Ron, but I made up my mind to stick with publishing for the time being.

The city is full of smart competent people though.  Im sure you will find someone.  Especially within your time frame. ;)

Well....... okay..... I was thinking of only $3,000 or $4,000 in any case..... just for informal input... a walk through... ideas etc.  But..... okay.... I'll look elsewhere.  Thanks for considering.

"Never use the phrase.... eat my heart out.... around Chuck Norris.  He will."

Quote from: Pinky on January 30, 2013, 12:26:25 AM
Love the restaurant idea, although I'd ditch the in-store coffee counter and replace the in-store tables with couches and comfy reading stuff.  If folks want food they can run right next door and either bring food back or eat there.

Thanks Pinky.  Occasionally someone will mention the soft chair idea.  This takes more room.  And, as you say, it could be accomplished if the smaller cafe was closed.  Still thinking about this option.  But....yes, the soft chairs would be an improvement.

If I was making a dream restaurant, I would just find the Chomp Chomp guys (Ian, Mark, John), throws as much money as I could afford at them, and try to corrupt them into doing Chomp Chomp on a larger scale, on the bottom floor of 225.

The issue of Dwell that I told you about yesterday is September 2009 and the article is called Hoagie's Heroes. This is the link: http://www.dwell.com/magazine/city-life. I hope this gives you some ideas!

Like you and your project, Ron.

Because he can.

Painting Bruce Lee Using Kung Fu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbvSms-1yj4&playnext=1&list=PLAD19EC32FF39A190&feature=results_video)

N-R Westsider  :).  KPD, the article in Dwell...... the building is very close in appearance to 225 Laura.  The article gave me some ideas about avoiding expensive modern materials and methods when  possible, keeping whenever practicle, any older aspects of the building intact.  On the sides, the brick goes back only about twenty feet or so, a process perhaps common in those days.  I suppose they figured.. when the buildings are so close, why worry about the appearance of the hidden sides.

The feedback and thoughts about the building cause me to become anxious to start the work.  Won't be long now. I must buy a dump-trailor for the cleanout and early demo, one with six-foot high sides, about 15 feet long.  The dumping ability allows one to simply drive to a county dump, such as Trail Ridge (?), the one just off 301, near Baldwin, and dump the stuff.  It takes much too long to unload a standard fixed trailer.  We will either build or buy some kind of chute, placing it between one of the windows and the trailer.  All kinds of "stuff" is in the building, and much to discard.  We will keep the cast iron tubs however, and hopefully use them in the apartments. 

Onward.


"Chuck Norris does not hunt because the word hunting implies the possibility of failure.  Chuch Norris goes killing." 

In the interest of offering information to my fellow MJ persons who might, in future, do a small renovation project downtown, I have copied a note I recently sent to my general contractor (not yet fully let loose upon the project), informing of the status on the 225 Laura Bldg (former Gus' location), and the plan for progress.  I convey this so that some, who might think it difficult to "do" a small project, might see that any project can be done in steps ... gradually, and without huge money outlays until the general contractor is let loose upon it.  I have already had the asbestos survey ($1,000), and the asbestos removal via a certified contractor ($1,800).  The only area in the building having asbestos was about 400 sq. ft. of carpet on the ground floor, which had a type of mastic containing asbestos.  All we are doing now is clean out, and some removal of surface material.

I have purchased a heavy steel hydraulic dump trailer ( 7' x 15' w/5' sides), which I pull with my box truck. This trailer allows us to load junk, trash, and sheet rock etc and take it immediately to the dump on Hwy 301.  It costs according to weight.  Our five loads so far have averaged only $60 each.  Having the dump trailer precludes us having to pay for a huge dumpster, taking up space on the street, like the one that has been taking up space in front of the Snyder Memorial Church for many weeks.  We load the trailer in about one hour.

If any of you "do" a project in the downtown core, and wish to rent the trailer at a "very minimal cost", let me know.  I don't want to get into the trailer rental business, but if your work is a downtown core project, and if I can help you, I wish to do so.  :)           

(to contractor)

     Update.  Most of the surface material (wall and ceiling) on the lower floor has been removed, exposing the structure to ease the work for the architect, the structural engineer, and all contractors (electrical, mechanical, plumbing, and sprinklers).

     It appears that the center wall on the lower floor, the wall going east to west for the length of the building, was installed at some point after the original construction and use of the building.  This wall appears to have been installed as load bearing, although the large joists supporting the second floor (old type, full 2" x 12") go the entire width of the building, each being about 29' in length. 

     If possible -- and we will have to get the opinion, drawings, and sign-off of the structural fellow --   it would be convenient if we could "sister" these joists between the first and second floor with perhaps 8" steel channel so that we can remove all columns and walls on the first floor. -- making it "wide open".  Whether or not this is feasible of course, depends on the integrity of the outer walls supporting the existing joists, and the calculations and recommendations of the engineer.

     It might be convenient, regarding the planning of the lower floor if, within a few weeks, we had the structural fellow visit and make a determination as to the feasibility of sistering the steel channel on all the joists to allow removal of the center wall, columns, and beam on the lower level.  Most of the original 4" x 8" wood columns on this wall (about 12' apart) have old termite damage, and have been replaced, perhaps decades ago, by two new 4" x 8" wood columns placed adjacent.  There is old termite damage on two areas on the main east/west beam placed atop the columns.  If the structural fellow decides to keep the columns and beam, I expect he will recommend either sistering this beam with 8" steel channel, or its complete replacement.

     Soon, we can get Fred Podris to finalize the layout of the apartments and the lower level.

Quote from: ronchamblin on May 11, 2014, 07:19:29 PM
In the interest of offering information to my fellow MJ persons who might, in future, do a small renovation project downtown, I have copied a note I recently sent to my general contractor, informing of the status on the 225 Laura Bldg (former Gus' location), and the plan for progress.  I convey this so that some, who might think it difficult to "do" a small project, might see that any project can be done in steps ... gradually, and without huge money outlays until the general contractor is let loose upon it.  I have already had the asbestos survey ($1,000), and the asbestos removal via a certified contractor ($1,800).  The only area in the building having asbestos was about 400 sq. ft. of carpet on the ground floor, which had a type of mastic containing asbestos.  All we are doing now is clean out, and some removal of surface material.

I have purchased a heavy steel hydraulic dump trailer ( 7' x 15' w/5' sides), which I pull with my box truck. This trailer allows us to load junk, trash, and sheet rock etc and take it immediately to the dump on Hwy 301.  It costs according to weight.  Our five loads so far have averaged only $60 each.  Having the dump trailer precludes us having to pay for a huge dumpster, taking up space on the street, like the one that has been taking up space in front of the Snyder Memorial Church for many weeks.  We load the trailer in about one hour.

If any of you "do" a project in the downtown core, and wish to rent the trailer at a "very minimal cost", let me know.  I don't want to get into the trailer rental business, but if your work is a downtown core project, and if I can help you, I wish to do so.  :)           

(to contractor)

     Update.  Most of the surface material (wall and ceiling) on the lower floor has been removed, exposing the structure to ease the work for the architect, the structural engineer, and all contractors (electrical, mechanical, plumbing, and sprinklers).

     It appears that the center wall on the lower floor, the wall going east to west for the length of the building, was installed at some point after the original construction and use of the building.  This wall appears to have been installed as load bearing, although the large joists supporting the second floor (old type, full 2" x 12") go the entire width of the building, each being about 29' in length. 

     If possible -- and we will have to get the opinion, drawings, and sign-off of the structural fellow --   it would be convenient if we could "sister" these joists between the first and second floor with perhaps 8" steel channel so that we can remove all columns and walls on the first floor. -- making it "wide open".  Whether or not this is feasible of course, depends on the integrity of the outer walls supporting the existing joists, and the calculations and recommendations of the engineer.

     It might be convenient, regarding the planning of the lower floor if, within a few weeks, we had the structural fellow visit and make a determination as to the feasibility of sistering the steel channel on all the joists to allow removal of the center wall, columns, and beam on the lower level.  Most of the original 4" x 8" wood columns on this wall (about 12' apart) have old termite damage, and have been replaced, perhaps decades ago, by two new 4" x 8" wood columns placed adjacent.  There is old termite damage on two areas on the main east/west beam placed atop the columns.  If the structural fellow decides to keep the columns and beam, I expect he will recommend either sistering this beam with 8" steel channel, or its complete replacement.

     Soon, we can get Fred Podris to finalize the layout of the apartments and the lower level.

It was a wise decision to do as much as you could on your own accord before releasing the kraken on the building. Sometimes I don't get where the numbers actually come from, but hey everyone wants to make money right :) .. That being said I agree with what you are doing to minimize cost and I also recommend this method to those who don't have an extensive budget or labor on hand to do a project. It does in fact save a fortune in the long run. I have recommended the same to others I have talked to. Good work on the building Ron keep it up :)

^Absolutely. Keep it up, Ron, I am so looking forward to seeing what you come up with for that space. It is a terrific location. You are doing an important service for us all.

Love the updates, Ron, and looking forward to seeing it move forward!

As someone still fairly new to this website, this was a *very* interesting thread. I read it and kept thinking to myself . . . Chamblin, Chamblin . . . where in the hell have I seen that name? Google Street View answered my question. I've seen that bookstore building for what seems like forever coming into town from Orange Park.

Ron Chamblin seems like a fascinating guy. I'm still recovering from a bout with the flu and subsequent pneumonia and the antibiotics I've been taking zap my focus, but . . . what happened with the space? 225 is listed now as the location for Chamblin's -- what happened? What did he do with the 215 space ???

Okay, called around. Still renovating the upper two floors and planning perhaps to do a sit-down Southern place on the ground floor.

What threw me for a loop is the downtownjacksonville.org website lists his current cafe as 225 North Laura and I couldn't square that with what I was reading in this thread:

http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/locations/l-227-chamblins-uptown.aspx

Best wishes to Mr. Chamblin.

Thanks Rattlegator ... Seems an error on their site.  The existing bookstore is 215 N. Laura.  The building set for renovation is officially listed as 225 N. Laura Street. 

We started demo work in 2013, but I had to pull off the project for a few months to apply money and labor to other things.  And too ... I've been paying down debt, restructuring loans, and paying back taxes ... all so that I can gain the confidence of the banks to lend the $600K to $700K or so I'll need to finish the 225 renovations.  My credit is A+, but I must get my monthly outlay down so as to have room for more debt ... the American Way. 

Even though the architect has already drawn preliminary plans, there has been a little change on the apartment numbers.  My original intention was to reduce the number of apartments from the existing five per level (appropriate for the 1920's) to three per level ... giving a total of six on the two upper floors.  But someone suggested that there would be an advantage to having only two apartments per level, thereby increasing the apartment size to an average of 1,000 sq. ft. each.  But a greater advantage arrives from the fact that instead of having to utilize space for six a/c units, six washer/dryers, six kitchens, six bathrooms etc .. I would contend with only two of these items per level.  Also, I would be dealing with only four tenants instead of six -- leaving me with only four people to not pay the rent.

But a new idea came to me yesterday about the roof ... and I talked about it briefly with the architect today.  The current roof has a white plastic type "membrane" placed over it.  The roof is approximately 30' x 80'.  The membrane I suspect was installed because the roof environment is so deteriorated (I haven't yet crawled up in the attic space), that they simply did not want to rebuild it to accommodate a standard roof.  Upon looking up into the attic/roof area, I noticed evidence of a former fire ... charred wood etc.  So I think that might have something to do with the decision to install the membrane.

But .. back to the new idea.  I'm thinking that instead of replacing the membrane in another ten or fifteen years, I would remove the membrane in the early stages of renovation (late 2015/early 2016) ... before we install anything in the building that can be damaged by water ... and rebuild the entire roof structure to accommodate a strong flat "walkable roof", so that I can have tables and chairs n'stuff on the roof.  In other words, the residents, and perhaps some cafe customers, could have a rooftop environment from which to gaze upon the sun and the park etc etc.  There is no elevator in the building ... a condition that might cause a "code" problem with inviting restaurant customers to the roof. 

In any case, it would be great to have a roof-top lounging setup.  The view of the park and the surrounding area would be beautiful.  And ... the extra cost of the project could be somewhat offset by a slight addendum to the rent ... as some residents might be willing to pay a little extra for having the view available by simply walking up the stairs to the roof. 

Also, in anticipation of future severe economic crashes or depressions, the roof lounge would provide an excellent platform or starting point from which anyone could perform a suicide jump to the sidewalk below.  This convenience however, might be diminished by the proposed large awning below, similar in size to that of the bookstore.  The awning should be of little concern however, because unless the jumper suffers from immobility, and given that the roof is flat, a good run could prepare one's jump to clear the awning.  In any case, besides providing a gate for the jumper ... as the perimeter must be fenced ... we will provide a sign on the east edge of the building, on the gate perhaps, warning any jumpers that they should consider a little extra oomph to clear the awning.

Thanks for the update, Ron!

Love the idea of a rooftop deck. Talk to Ennis, he has warned me about walkable rooftop issues. But I think if there's any location in Jax where a rooftop view would really pay off, this is it. 

I believe what you will find is that truly usable roof top decks are very expensive, difficult to maintain and have, at least in the Jax residential market, no appraised value. Of course, the solution to the former is spend the money for the best and the solution to the latter issue is to get more people doing them so the value is finally realized.

Quote from: strider on January 25, 2015, 07:41:15 AM
I believe what you will find is that truly usable roof top decks are very expensive, difficult to maintain and have, at least in the Jax residential market, no appraised value. Of course, the solution to the former is spend the money for the best and the solution to the latter issue is to get more people doing them so the value is finally realized.

Good points Strider.  The roof is sealed for the time with a membrane, and I suspect that when the membrane fails in ten years or so, it can simply be replaced with another.  However, I cannot remove from my mind the image of a messy roof structure, slightly damaged by a small fire of long ago, that can only accept a membrane covering, and cannot even be walked upon.

The idea of removing the membrane entirely, before anything is placed into the building thats vulnerable to damage by rain, and rebuilding the entire roof structure to accommodate a roof-top deck, appeals to me because it is something I believe will be appreciated by the apartment residents, some of the cafe / restaurant customers... or anybody ...  who might want to have a beer or espresso and enjoy a view.

And, as you've said ... "spend the money for the best" ... if done properly in design and workmanship, the roof could be almost trouble free.  Somebody mentioned the issue of insurance.  After all, anything thrown from a roof 35' to 40' high, could be quite inurious to someone's head.  But also, anything thrown high into the air from the ground, can be quite injurious.  Imagine a drunk, throwing a chair from the roof.  Does that means we would have to chain all chairs and tables?  Probably a good idea.

The deck could be easily surrounded with an attractive 4' high barrier fence, and would include the removal of anything close to it, so that a child could not climb over it.  After all, there are plenty of environments in town having high walkways and stairways etc over which people could fall fifteen to twenty feet.  But of course, these places might have slightly higher insurance rates too.

Just thinking aloud on this thing.  In any case, I will get with my architect, and we will, through discussions with structural engineer ...  permitting ... zoning ... insurance, etc., make a decision as to the practicality of doing the roof deck. 

Quote from: strider on January 25, 2015, 07:41:15 AM
I believe what you will find is that truly usable roof top decks are very expensive, difficult to maintain and have, at least in the Jax residential market, no appraised value. Of course, the solution to the former is spend the money for the best and the solution to the latter issue is to get more people doing them so the value is finally realized.

Ennis and I can both attest that there is ZERO appraised value to a roof deck in JAX. Roof decks and retractable roofs are gaining acceptance in many places for bars and such, but JAX is behind the curve on these things, plus it is pretty damn hot most of the time there.  Fix the roof but be sure it is significantly sloped. 

For those interested, the following is an update on the 225 N. Laura St. renovation project.  Having purchased the building in 2012 for $290K, I've recently paid it off, the previous owner having held the note.  I did not approach a bank for financing, as most banks are inhabited by individuals so bureaucratically fucked up, they can't move past their assholes.  (That make sense?)  The previous owner and me had a good buyer / seller relationship, and he is paid in full, with a little extra at my insistence for allowing a few weeks extension on the balloon note.

My indecision about the use of the first floor of this building has resulted in a temporary tabling of the city grant funds ($37,000) destined to be awarded via the application.  Of course, I do not need the funds until I begin renovation, hopefully in early 2016, when I should be in a position to borrow funds. 

The building has 3 floors, the upper two floors will each have two 2-bedroom apartments, each averaging around 1,000 sq. ft.  I am overbooked however, as I've the names of eight individuals who want to rent one of the four apartments.  The $37K grant money is set to be applied only to the lower floor project. 

Although the bookstore building renovation, adjacent to the 225 building, was completed without any funds from the city, I will attempt to gain the $37,000 grant money offered for the first floor of the 225 building... provided that doing so does not excessively control or limit decisions on the use of it.  If the grant process becomes too restricting and laborious, then I am prepared to bow out of the program altogether, and to simply borrow all of the funds needed, which will be between $600K and $700K.

Of course, once I've completed the renovation, and opened a business in the lower floor, the city has the option to pay me some incentive money if the judges consider that the entire project enhances the downtown core sufficiently.  If there is to be no incentives or funding for the project ... fuck'm (sp ?).   

My objective is to be Un-American, and to not necessarily attempt to reap maximum profits from the lower space (how boring to have a pizza place, or another sandwich shop), but to create a space offering enhancement in a cultural sense ... an operation that introduces a unique variety, and encourages vibrancy into the city core.

Therefore, I am thinking about proceeding with a concept I mentioned many months ago -- about which some MJ posters expressed encouragement -- which was to provide an interesting ambiance, built around a bookstore / meeting place, with a few round tables surrounded by chairs, perhaps a small counter -- to provide coffee / espresso, beer / wine, and snacks.  The place would be open most nights, or every night, until perhaps 9:00 p. m.  Small groups could have business meetings in the afternoons or evenings ... any kind of meeting.  People could sit, read, talk, socialize, panhandle, have table sex... enjoy espresso/coffee, beer and snacks ... use free WiFi ... even buy books.

The perimeter walls will have books for sale, or reading, on history, philosophy, the sciences, the humanities, classic literature, scholarly works in psychology and political and social issues ... and some other non-fiction categories.  However, not one right-wing bullshit title will be allowed in the place except for burning.  Once every Friday night, there will be a burning of a book written by one of the right-wing and/or religious charlatan blowhard idiots who've embarrassed bookstore shelves and reason for years -- truth seeking intellectuals such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Joel O'steen, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart ... etc. 

A comfortable ambience would be created, with a  stage in the rear for weekly events --  music performances, comedy, poetry readings, author book discussions, talks by various scholars .. or any individual offering talks / discussions on interesting subjects ... even via the Internet, as has been done by various individuals in recent years.  If needed for an event, additional chairs would be set.

Plumbing and electrical, and an exhaust hood, will be installed so that the location could house a restaurant after I die and go to hell.  Also, given the demand downtown for a full breakfast menu, I am considering utilizing the restaurant capability by offering old-fashioned breakfasts every morning early ... continuing perhaps to 11:00, after which the place would revert to the above described scenario. 

Will the breakfast idea be viable or practical?  Still thinking.  After all, if one is paying for a building; to pay the bills, why not allow it to make money for as many hours of the day as possible? 



   

Thanks for all that you do and good luck!

Was wondering how things were going, you couldn't ask for a better update.

Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Great update, and I wish every success.  Except for the fascist censorship comments, Savonarola.

Thanks for the update. I have a couple of questions. Have you started the process of obtaining the loan for the renovations, or even just informal discussions, and if so, how receptive have the lenders been?  Also, can you opine on what the impact would be on your project and your existing business, if the Laura Trio was completed as Steve Atkins had planned?   

Sounds like an awesome concept space! Breakfast is also a great idea. Good luck on the project and here's to hoping it happens sooner rather than later.

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 14, 2015, 01:24:09 AM
For those interested, the following is an update on the 225 N. Laura St. renovation project.  Having purchased the building in 2012 for $290K, I've recently paid it off, the previous owner having held the note.  I did not approach a bank for financing, as most banks are inhabited by individuals so bureaucratically fucked up, they can't move past their assholes.  (That make sense?)  The previous owner and me had a good buyer / seller relationship, and he is paid in full, with a little extra at my insistence for allowing a few weeks extension on the balloon note.

My indecision about the use of the first floor of this building has resulted in a temporary tabling of the city grant funds ($37,000) destined to be awarded via the application.  Of course, I do not need the funds until I begin renovation, hopefully in early 2016, when I should be in a position to borrow funds. 

The building has 3 floors, the upper two floors will each have two 2-bedroom apartments, each averaging around 1,000 sq. ft.  I am overbooked however, as I've the names of eight individuals who want to rent one of the four apartments.  The $37K grant money is set to be applied only to the lower floor project. 

Although the bookstore building renovation, adjacent to the 225 building, was completed without any funds from the city, I will attempt to gain the $37,000 grant money offered for the first floor of the 225 building... provided that doing so does not excessively control or limit decisions on the use of it.  If the grant process becomes too restricting and laborious, then I am prepared to bow out of the program altogether, and to simply borrow all of the funds needed, which will be between $600K and $700K.

Of course, once I've completed the renovation, and opened a business in the lower floor, the city has the option to pay me some incentive money if the judges consider that the entire project enhances the downtown core sufficiently.  If there is to be no incentives or funding for the project ... fuck'm (sp ?).   

My objective is to be Un-American, and to not necessarily attempt to reap maximum profits from the lower space (how boring to have a pizza place, or another sandwich shop), but to create a space offering enhancement in a cultural sense ... an operation that introduces a unique variety, and encourages vibrancy into the city core.

Therefore, I am thinking about proceeding with a concept I mentioned many months ago -- about which some MJ posters expressed encouragement -- which was to provide an interesting ambiance, built around a bookstore / meeting place, with a few round tables surrounded by chairs, perhaps a small counter -- to provide coffee / espresso, beer / wine, and snacks.  The place would be open most nights, or every night, until perhaps 9:00 p. m.  Small groups could have business meetings in the afternoons or evenings ... any kind of meeting.  People could sit, read, talk, socialize, panhandle, have table sex... enjoy espresso/coffee, beer and snacks ... use free WiFi ... even buy books.

The perimeter walls will have books for sale, or reading, on history, philosophy, the sciences, the humanities, classic literature, scholarly works in psychology and political and social issues ... and some other non-fiction categories.  However, not one right-wing bullshit title will be allowed in the place except for burning.  Once every Friday night, there will be a burning of a book written by one of the right-wing and/or religious charlatan blowhard idiots who've embarrassed bookstore shelves and reason for years -- truth seeking intellectuals such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Joel O'steen, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart ... etc. 

A comfortable ambience would be created, with a  stage in the rear for weekly events --  music performances, comedy, poetry readings, author book discussions, talks by various scholars .. or any individual offering talks / discussions on interesting subjects ... even via the Internet, as has been done by various individuals in recent years.  If needed for an event, additional chairs would be set.

Plumbing and electrical, and an exhaust hood, will be installed so that the location could house a restaurant after I die and go to hell.  Also, given the demand downtown for a full breakfast menu, I am considering utilizing the restaurant capability by offering old-fashioned breakfasts every morning early ... continuing perhaps to 11:00, after which the place would revert to the above described scenario. 

Will the breakfast idea be viable or practical?  Still thinking.  After all, if one is paying for a building; to pay the bills, why not allow it to make money for as many hours of the day as possible? 



   

"Once every Friday night, there will be a burning of a book written by one of the right-wing and/or religious charlatan blowhard idiots who've embarrassed bookstore shelves and reason for years -- truth seeking intellectuals such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Joel O'steen, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart ... etc." We hope you're joking about this? Why do you sell these books if you truly can't stand them. We all know you're an Atheist until that day you stand before God. You need to let God in your stone dead soul. I will pray for you. "Dear God you know Mr Chamblin and the good he has done in his life and you know all the sins he has done also. In Jesus Christs name I pray that he will find you before he stands before you. Amen  :D

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 14, 2015, 01:24:09 AM
Once every Friday night, there will be a burning of a book written by one of the right-wing and/or religious charlatan blowhard idiots who've embarrassed bookstore shelves and reason for years -- truth seeking intellectuals such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Joel O'steen, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart ... etc. 

Hahahahaha...   some people have no sense of humor.

I'm not really one for cos-play, but I think it would add an air of mystery and excitement if we could all 'dress up' for the weekly, ritual book burning. 

I for one have a great idea in mind using some juxtaposition of a Nazi SS Officer and Captain America costumes.  Would it be too much if I held a Quran in one hand and a rosary in the other?  Anyhow...  get back to us on the 'Theme Night' idea and I'm wishing you well in your endeavor. 

Great idea.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 14, 2015, 12:27:56 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 14, 2015, 01:24:09 AM
Once every Friday night, there will be a burning of a book written by one of the right-wing and/or religious charlatan blowhard idiots who've embarrassed bookstore shelves and reason for years -- truth seeking intellectuals such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Joel O'steen, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart ... etc. 

Hahahahaha...   some people have no sense of humor.

I'm not really one for cos-play, but I think it would add an air of mystery and excitement if we could all 'dress up' for the weekly, ritual book burning. 

I for one have a great idea in mind using some juxtaposition of a Nazi SS Officer and Captain America costumes.  Would it be too much if I held a Quran in one hand and a rosary in the other?  Anyhow...  get back to us on the 'Theme Night' idea and I'm wishing you well in your endeavor. 

Great idea.

Sense of Humor reread his post. He sounds a little off base?

Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Sorta kidding.  The smell of a burning book would not be good.  But the point of wanting to burn is there.

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 14, 2015, 10:01:12 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Great update, and I wish every success.  Except for the fascist censorship comments, Savonarola.

Censorship? ... just wanted to align myself as apposing the referred extremists.  Savonarola? I presume you mean the religiously insane Friar who was hanged and then burned in late 15th century Florence.  Remember the Italian Giordano Bruno ... burned alive in 1600?  Powerful stuff.

Quote from: vicupstate on July 14, 2015, 10:24:51 AM
Thanks for the update. I have a couple of questions. Have you started the process of obtaining the loan for the renovations, or even just informal discussions, and if so, how receptive have the lenders been?  Also, can you opine on what the impact would be on your project and your existing business, if the Laura Trio was completed as Steve Atkins had planned?   

I have accounts with four banks, two of which have expressed interest in doing a renovation loan.  I am currently in the process leaving Bank of American completely ... shifting three real estate loans away from these vultures, as I've discovered that they've created, apparently through training, a culture of ill will, deception, and intentional delays under the guise of accommodating your needs ... all the while making decisions to actually put you down, especially if you are weak and vulnerable ... then waiting like vultures to devour the remains.  I will never recommend BOA to anyone, but will always recommend using the smaller, local banks when possible.  Long live local banks.  Death to BOA.

The Trio?  I think that the Barnett / Trio projects, if completed, would be great boon to all residents and businesses in the core, including mine.  Its all about foot traffic ... people actually working and living in the core.  So ... yes, for the good of the downtown core, anyone with any influence, should attempt to see the Atkin's projects through to completion.

You are so funny Non-Redneck.

The_Choose_1 ... guess I am a little off base.  Some of us struggle ... on the edge ... do'in the best we can.   

BOA is selling branches and accounts in NE South Carolina to a smaller bank.  It is completely vacating my hometown and the entire region.   While selling a bank branch is quite common, I have never heard of selling accounts, particularly in an area that the selling bank has had a presence and dominant position in.  Does anyone know why they would be doing this?  I thought the big banks only wanted to get bigger.   

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 15, 2015, 02:26:03 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Sorta kidding.  The smell of a burning book would not be good.  But the point of wanting to burn is there.

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 14, 2015, 10:01:12 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Sounds awesome, Ron. As one of the posters here who's been angling for a "book bar" space like that, I'm stoked. I hope you're kidding about the book burnings.

Great update, and I wish every success.  Except for the fascist censorship comments, Savonarola.

Censorship? ... just wanted to align myself as apposing the referred extremists.  Savonarola? I presume you mean the religiously insane Friar who was hanged and then burned in late 15th century Florence.  Remember the Italian Giordano Bruno ... burned alive in 1600?  Powerful stuff.

Quote from: vicupstate on July 14, 2015, 10:24:51 AM
Thanks for the update. I have a couple of questions. Have you started the process of obtaining the loan for the renovations, or even just informal discussions, and if so, how receptive have the lenders been?  Also, can you opine on what the impact would be on your project and your existing business, if the Laura Trio was completed as Steve Atkins had planned?   

I have accounts with four banks, two of which have expressed interest in doing a renovation loan.  I am currently in the process leaving Bank of American completely ... shifting three real estate loans away from these vultures, as I've discovered that they've created, apparently through training, a culture of ill will, deception, and intentional delays under the guise of accommodating your needs ... all the while making decisions to actually put you down, especially if you are weak and vulnerable ... then waiting like vultures to devour the remains.  I will never recommend BOA to anyone, but will always recommend using the smaller, local banks when possible.  Long live local banks.  Death to BOA.

The Trio?  I think that the Barnett / Trio projects, if completed, would be great boon to all residents and businesses in the core, including mine.  Its all about foot traffic ... people actually working and living in the core.  So ... yes, for the good of the downtown core, anyone with any influence, should attempt to see the Atkin's projects through to completion.

You are so funny Non-Redneck.

The_Choose_1 ... guess I am a little off base.  Some of us struggle ... on the edge ... do'in the best we can.   

Good to know and I will keep praying for you. In other news I see on your website you have a "FOREST STREET WAREHOUSE" is this near the new and improved Brooklyn area of Jacksonville Fl off Riverside Ave? Because if it is this could be your third store. I'm sure you have heard of Powell's in Portland Oregon."Powell's Books operates four stores in Portland, Oregon, and one in nearby Beaverton. We also have a number of warehouses and book sources locally, nationally, and internationally." And don't you have a Daughter & Son in law that has a Bookmine in Napa? I mean Wow it looks as if you're becoming the Powell's of the East Coast of America!

The_Choose_1

[/quote]Good to know and I will keep praying for you. In other news I see on your website you have a "FOREST STREET WAREHOUSE" is this near the new and improved Brooklyn area of Jacksonville Fl off Riverside Ave? Because if it is this could be your third store. I'm sure you have heard of Powell's in Portland Oregon."Powell's Books operates four stores in Portland, Oregon, and one in nearby Beaverton. We also have a number of warehouses and book sources locally, nationally, and internationally." And don't you have a Daughter & Son in law that has a Bookmine in Napa? I mean Wow it looks as if you're becoming the Powell's of the East Coast of America!
[/quote]

Thanks for the idea The_Choose_1 ... Actually, I've always expanded reluctantly ... waiting until the pressure of business practically forces it.  Although I've had brief glimpses of doing a retail operation at the Forest building, you've sorta prompted me to engage the idea with more energy.  I would place certain categories there, freeing up the other locations to expand crowded categories.  For example, hardcover fiction is a category requiring a large area to display, so we currently warehouse hundreds of thousands of titles.

The good thing is that the Forest Street building is paid for, along with the 225 Laura building, so the total monthly payment pressure is removed somewhat.  So .... if you see the Forest Street open for retail in a few months .. or within a year or two ... it will be partially because of you.  :)

Quote from: ronchamblin on July 16, 2015, 03:29:31 AM
The_Choose_1

Good to know and I will keep praying for you. In other news I see on your website you have a "FOREST STREET WAREHOUSE" is this near the new and improved Brooklyn area of Jacksonville Fl off Riverside Ave? Because if it is this could be your third store. I'm sure you have heard of Powell's in Portland Oregon."Powell's Books operates four stores in Portland, Oregon, and one in nearby Beaverton. We also have a number of warehouses and book sources locally, nationally, and internationally." And don't you have a Daughter & Son in law that has a Bookmine in Napa? I mean Wow it looks as if you're becoming the Powell's of the East Coast of America!
[/quote]Thanks  8)

Thanks for the idea The_Choose_1 ... Actually, I've always expanded reluctantly ... waiting until the pressure of business practically forces it.  Although I've had brief glimpses of doing a retail operation at the Forest building, you've sorta prompted me to engage the idea with more energy.  I would place certain categories there, freeing up the other locations to expand crowded categories.  For example, hardcover fiction is a category requiring a large area to display, so we currently warehouse hundreds of thousands of titles.

The good thing is that the Forest Street building is paid for, along with the 225 Laura building, so the total monthly payment pressure is removed somewhat.  So .... if you see the Forest Street open for retail in a few months .. or within a year or two ... it will be partially because of you.  :)
[/quote]

Ron,

That location is close to where Peterbrooke is building their new production facility, right? This would be awesome!! Two storied local institutions on the same block. Too bad Intuition didnt go in across the street like they were thinking at one time...