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If you live in Springfield, or spend anytime in the neighborhood, you may recognize these images. The following pictures were taken along Hogans Creek, in Springfield and Klutho Park, to be exact. These parks are central to the downtown and the historic neighborhood of Springfield. It is one of the few places a Springy can go and be in public. I've met many of my neighbors in these parks. This is why I'm venting my frustration on Metro today. For something so iconic and central to a neighborhood the parks are in deplorable condition. Beside the periodic mow, no effort seems to be made to improve the overall condition. Trash accumulates under the bridges. Paths are covered by overgrowth. Sidewalk networks lead to nowhere. This asset should be the main tool used to lure people into this transitioning community. I'm not calling on some multi-million dollar plan to improve facilities, I'm talking edging the freaking paths and trash pick-up. This is short-term stuff. Stuff that citizens should not tolerate for any given period of time.
(http://s14.postimage.org/4ek7e4gst/2013_01_23_T14_26_12_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4ek7e4gst/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/9q8aqbhn1/2013_01_23_T14_26_12_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9q8aqbhn1/)
I should know this, but who is in charge of park maintenance? Parks and Recreation? Do they contract out to a third party property manager? Regardless of the bureaucracy, anyone maintaining any piece of land should be required to do just that. Is skimping on edging saving the city that much money? There has to be hidden cost to neglecting something the city invested money into in the first place. Take into account that the first time the path is cleared will be the most strenuous, but once it is done upkeep will not be that difficult. It's not Springfield's fault that someone let overgrowth take over. And how about picking up under the bridges.
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The bridges are a story in themselves. Was the city trying to construct the perfect hobo hide outs? There is even a little sleeping ledge. Not to mention the fact that these perfect homeless hangouts have no lighting, though they do have blank circuitry under them. I assume they had lighting at some point. I have no idea why it would have been removed. At night I avoid the bridges entirely. Not because I'm afraid of getting mugged, I feel completely safe here, it's more out of respect. I don't want to disturb a sleeping homeless person. All I know is that I've walked past my last pile of human feces in that park. Replacing lights, picking up garbage, and edging pathways are easy fixes. The city should be taking it up, but you may just see me down there with a shovel and a trash bag. If the homeless can shit under a bridge I can do yard work in a park.
(http://s2.postimage.org/ekkkk8lj9/2013_01_23_T14_26_12_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ekkkk8lj9/)
(http://s7.postimage.org/ra2zuhbtz/2013_01_23_T14_26_12_11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ra2zuhbtz/)
Next visit I make to clean up at the Drew house I might make a small contribution to the clean up at klutho, too.
Sad. The Hogans Creek "corridor" would make a great park from the river to Shands.
I am regularly walking these areas with my dog, and agree with your assessment. There is little the city does to maintain them. Even the trash barrels are often overflowing. About once a year there is a blockcaptain cleanup focusing on the creek, and the river keeper had cleanups in the past (annual?).
The lighting was removed by the homeless sleeping under the bridges to salvage copper. The street lights close to the Broad Street bridge are pretty much permanently disabled after most of the cables connecting them to power where removed. The cables where exposed under the bridge. I think the picture you have is one of the junction boxes.
There is a famous "Greenway" project that should address much of what you suggest (search here, you may find more details in older posts). But I think it is stuck in city confusion land.
I usually try to fill up the grocery bag I have for my dogs "refuse" after she is done. But it can be hard to find an empty trash barrel. Normal weekly trash pickup will not empty park trash barrels. JTA has a pretty well organized pickup for the bus stops but again, they drive by anything else. Then there is a city crew that empties the non-JTA trash containers along the street (if they use a liner). Finally, there is a highly specialized park-trash-barrel emptier crew that may get around once a quarter it seems. Just having the weekly trash pickup empty the trash barrels in the park at times would be helpful.
I play disc golf there on the weekends and I've only seen the park in a somewhat OK condition once and it was just after a large clean up by the River Keepers. Next weekend I was back and the trash and feces started piling up again.
I do think that trash in the park is a systemic problem. No single trash pick-up event is going to fix it. More garbage bins and more frequent emptying of the bins is a start. I don't think the home owners of this neighborhood are the ones trashing the park. It is a transient uneducated group of people. They don't have the mind to pick up a piece of trash that they see on the ground, or in their hand. The easier you make the process the more likely you will see a difference. I'm sure there is some ratio of education level to feet walked to throw away trash. We live in an under educated city. Trash bins need to be everywhere.
That park is going to need a "Friends of Hogans Creek" type of citizens group to get it turned around. The city can't even afford to keep its street lights on and grass mowed, much less make the type of improvements this space needs.
QuoteThat park is going to need a "Friends of Hogans Creek" type of citizens group to get it turned around. The city can't even afford to keep its street lights on and grass mowed, much less make the type of improvements this space needs.
As someone who has been cleaning up Hogans Creek for three years... I could not agree more. That being said, who is going to step up?
It's a tiring, frustrating and unforgiving assignment... but I truly believe it will be worth the effort some day.
Spar was the applicant for, but was not awarded, a federal grant last year that would have employed a dedicated advocate for the Hogans Creek park system. COJ is applying for a feasability grant for Hogans Creek, as I understand it. As someone mentioned, Spar organizes a community clean up project in the park about once a year, and once in a while another non-profit will organize a clean up in the creek
Concerning the park itself, the greenscape is fine. Lots of green grass and space people use on a regular basis. Trash accumulates in the creek and near the bridges, where homeless often camp. Also, the path (and obviously the ballustrades) along the creek needs major work. There's several park nodes following the creek, and each is unique in their condition and needs.
I believe at least part of the issue is that the creek itself needs cleaned up and not much else will happen (improvements) until then. The Army Corp of engineers is, I believe, in charge of at least part of that clean up. They have done tests (test wells) and several plans have been shown to the public, but I think funding and just how to go about doing the cleanup is slowing things down,. The recent posts about how the owners of the Park View Inn are being asked to contribute to the cleanup of the coal gasification issues is part of all this. There should be at least one thread about this somewhere.
The park needs action, not just advocacy and feasibility studies. Like happened to stop demolitions in Springfield, a group is needed to fight for the parks.
Quote from: Mathew1056 on January 23, 2013, 03:58:14 PM
I do think that trash in the park is a systemic problem. No single trash pick-up event is going to fix it. More garbage bins and more frequent emptying of the bins is a start. I don't think the home owners of this neighborhood are the ones trashing the park. It is a transient uneducated group of people. They don't have the mind to pick up a piece of trash that they see on the ground, or in their hand. The easier you make the process the more likely you will see a difference. I'm sure there is some ratio of education level to feet walked to throw away trash. We live in an under educated city. Trash bins need to be everywhere.
Good points. Unfortunately trash bins everywhere aren't going to stop the bums from sh tt ng wherever they please. And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics, who is going to pay for the bins, put them in place, and empty them regularly?
Trash bins will not help with the root cause, people littering. But they will make it easier for others to help clean it up. Sad, but the next best thing.
There is (was?) a Springfield "Friends of the Park" group that emerged out of the disk golf effort.
Some links about the greenway project:
http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/locations/l-422-hogans-creek-greenway.aspx
Friends of Hogans Creek Greenway Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-of-the-Hogans-Creek-Greenway/125312910874474
And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx
Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes

Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09
Phase II of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path, lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east/west side from Union Street to the Northbank Riverwalk. (property acquisition not included)
2009-2011
Design and Engineering - Phase III of Hogan’s Creek is the Ecosystem Restoration of an area that has been contaminated, and subject to flooding for decades. This will include the dredging of Hogan’s Creek to remove sediments that have been deposited over the years; create 13.3 acres of restored wetlands with a littoral shelf to help treat the water (reduce the effects of pollutants and sedimentation and remove exotic plant species, debris, pipes, and non-historical structures).
2010-2012
Construction - Phase III Hogan’s Creek Ecosystem Restoration
The "adopted Capital Improvement Plan" shows that there is a total of about $1M allocated to Hogans Creek Greenway, and about $900k of which haven't been spent yet.
But don't get excited about all this... this is the City of Jacksonville and there may be a hole in the court house roof that the money will be used to plug. So its probably safe to have some meetings, ask for input but avoid doing anything.
Page 74 here:
https://www.coj.net/getattachment/Departments/Finance/Budget/Capital-Improvement-Plans/Full-CIP-PDF-for-publication-web.pdf.aspx
I was enjoying reading this thought provoking thread until I read the sentence, courtesy of BACKINJAX05,
"And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics..."
Are you ingnorant, poorly informed, or just a partisan hack? Are you saying Mayor brown inhereited a city budget with surpluses as far as the eye could see, but somehow immediately plunged us into defecit? For Christ's sake, like Obama he inherited a complete cluster f%%k of an economic situation, and has been more truthful and creative in his budgetary problem solving than previous Mayor's Peyton and Delaney combined.
Quote from: MusicMan on January 23, 2013, 10:10:13 PM
I was enjoying reading this thought provoking thread until I read the sentence, courtesy of BACKINJAX05,
"And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics..."
Are you ingnorant, poorly informed, or just a partisan hack? Are you saying Mayor brown inhereited a city budget with surpluses as far as the eye could see, but somehow immediately plunged us into defecit? For Christ's sake, like Obama he inherited a complete cluster f%%k of an economic situation, and has been more truthful and creative in his budgetary problem solving than previous Mayor's Peyton and Delaney combined.
I'm not here to criticize the mayor on his handling of budget issues. It's a difficult task, I'm sure. His title and his leadership could be used on the park issue, though. Relatively little money is required, most of it going to lighting under the bridges. Fixing the few things I suggested could have a huge impact on the community. If he wants to be seen as the mayor that turn downtown around he needs to take up opportunities that could have large political payoffs. Personally, I could use some positive action from Alvin after being burned by him on 2012-296. You know, the bill that would have offered me protections. A full council hall and not a peep out of the mayor's office. All I'm saying Music Man is the he isn't perfect, no one is. You have to play the hand you are dealt.
Quote from: movedsouth on January 23, 2013, 07:43:01 PM
And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx
Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes

Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09
Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.
Quote from: stephendare on January 24, 2013, 09:09:24 AM
It was Alvin who decided to cut the tax rate on top of the massive cuts in state spending, not John Boehner, the unpopular Reoublican Speaker of the US House.
to be fair, Mayor Brown didn't cut the tax rate....he just refused to increase the rate to offset declining property valuers.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on January 24, 2013, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: movedsouth on January 23, 2013, 07:43:01 PM
And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx
Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes

Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09
Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.
The Friends of Hogans Creek Greenway Facebook page mentioned earlier includes several people on this board, and we did apply for a grant (along with various other partners including Riverkeeper, JUMSRI, Sulzbacher, Transform Jax, etc) with SPAR being the applicant not too long ago to create exactly the kind of clearing house that is needed to coordinate all the various money sources (BJP, CIP, ACOE) with the proper entities (SJRMD, Public Works, FDOE, etc) to finally make real headway, as Bill mentions (and was very helfpul with). Unfortunately we were not awarded the grant.
The Mayor could have appointed Bill Killingsworth to be this person and make this a City led effort instead of being adminsitered by a non profit, but the Administration valued his services differently than.... well, everyone else in this town does.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 24, 2013, 01:24:00 PM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on January 24, 2013, 09:23:10 AM
Quote from: movedsouth on January 23, 2013, 07:43:01 PM
And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx
Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes

Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09
Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.
The Friends of Hogans Creek Greenway Facebook page mentioned earlier includes several people on this board, and we did apply for a grant (along with various other partners including Riverkeeper, JUMSRI, Sulzbacher, Transform Jax, etc) with SPAR being the applicant not too long ago to create exactly the kind of clearing house that is needed to coordinate all the various money sources (BJP, CIP, ACOE) with the proper entities (SJRMD, Public Works, FDOE, etc) to finally make real headway, as Bill mentions (and was very helfpul with). Unfortunately we were not awarded the grant.
The Mayor could have appointed Bill Killingsworth to be this person and make this a City led effort instead of being adminsitered by a non profit, but the Administration valued his services differently than.... well, everyone else in this town does.
To whom was the grant application made? Can you explain why a volunteer organization could not accomplish what is needed? In other words, why was the grant needed to accomplish the goals and what else can be done to get it done?
Now that Alvin has found extra money for mowing, etc. I hope he invests in our urban core parks. I am a little puzzled about the Northside getting a brand new park when the city can't seem to keep our very own central park up.
It is beyond my scope of understanding why a city can not take care of properly it's own parks. There are many facets of Jax I find to be uncivilized and it is perplexing to say the least. It is a city with great potential hitting it square in the face, yet progression and forethought seem to lack completely. I think if I lived there year round I'd go bonkers with all the backasswards politics.
In the meantime, what can be done? Does that park interest/volunteer group still exist mentioned above? Money makes the world go round but I agree that a small group of passionate, dedicated people can "make it happen."
Quote from: MusicMan on January 23, 2013, 10:10:13 PM
I was enjoying reading this thought provoking thread until I read the sentence, courtesy of BACKINJAX05,
"And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics..."
Are you ingnorant, poorly informed, or just a partisan hack? Are you saying Mayor brown inhereited a city budget with surpluses as far as the eye could see, but somehow immediately plunged us into defecit? For Christ's sake, like Obama he inherited a complete cluster f%%k of an economic situation, and has been more truthful and creative in his budgetary problem solving than previous Mayor's Peyton and Delaney combined.
Aww, whats wrong, MusicMan? Didn't like the thoughts I provoked? ;D
what will happen if they dredged the whole creek? Common sense tells me that would help alot.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/481258398_XJ3nS-600x10000.jpg)
When it actually resolved flooding in the area, it had a few large reservoirs to hold water. They can be seen in this image on either side of Boulevard. For some reason, we figured we could fill those in and nothing would happen as a result.
Alvin was elected by Jacksonville's most elite and wealthy businessmen and philanthropists. How he cannot leverage these relationships and continue to use his election to mobilize these people to step up beyond giving in to the wife and throwing a few extra bucks at the Zoo or Wolfsons or Greenscape is beyond me. While traditionally per acreage spending by municipalities is a lot higher than in Jacksonville, it is still chump change compared to the private dollars usually raised and invested to keep parks not only just clean and usable, but great places to be.
If Jax cannot keep lights on, libraries open, or the medians mowed, then I wouldn't expect it to be able to allocate another dime to public space, however, Alvin formed relationships with the deepest pockets in the city during his campaign, including with the current chair of ULI, a major proponent of public space and responsible private development. How nothing gets done in Jax is beyond me. I still blame the private sector as much as the public sector. The private sector in Jax is never about treating the city as an invested place. Even the most philanthropic of souls in the city are looking to strike deals and receive incentives, never to go out on a limb or to stake their claim.
Look to Atlanta at what needs to get done.
Piedmont Park: $100-$200MM raised and invested privately in the last 20 years, major citizen and philanthropic oversight
Centennial Olympic Park: Privately funded before the Olympics, privately expanded by invested parties since (largely funded through the sale of 500,000 $40 bricks)
Chastain Park: Almost a private park at this point
Candler Park: funded similarly though on a smaller scale as Piedmont Park
Grant Park: again...private donations
Atlanta Beltline: TIF financing and public grants, but mostly privately funded...major public and private campaign whereby real estate companies, tech firms, restaurant groups, and small businesses all saw opportunity to make an "investment"...major calling from the mayor's office
I could go on...but even though Atlanta spends multiples per acre what Jacksonville spends, and the parks receive great political support from all levels, the real meat of why and how they come to be so great is all private. And it's expensive, these parks are what makes firms a lot of money. A lot of public and private placement funds throw money at parks and other things to make their own investments work or grow. I don't think Jacksonville companies/executives see the city and its attributes quite in the same way companies/executives see their cities elsewhere. Not too sure why that is.
Despite what all you people want to say (how Jax companies are involved, Shahid Khan, etc etc), there is a general sense of a "we don't give a fuck" attitude in the city and it shows. There is literally no corporate involvement as compared to most other cities. Corporations and wealthy individuals are literally what built cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, and Charlotte. It's the little things like a $3MM donation to a park that add up and what count. These "investments" don't happen in Jacksonville, but if you want to see a cleaned up central park and major "place-making" activity, it won't happen until public leadership at the top starts pulling some strings and private leadership at the top starts throwing money around and viewing the city as an investment worth growing and protecting rather than a place to shield money and ride the status quo.
I definitely agree about the things like $3MM donations from the private sector adding up. I've seen countless cities across the country fund many public initiatives such as parks, etc. through donations from their private sector. Little ol' Lakeland literally rebuilt it's Lake Mirror Promenade into a first tier urban public space through a series of private donations. Public dollars were leveraged to plan and kick off things initially but donations have funded the park's best amenities.
I've only been here since 2003 but I'm still not able to figure out why a city as business rich as Jax hasn't had similar results. The only thing I can come up with is that private dollars tend to come when the public entity reaches a level to where it has developed a coordinated vision and is taking steps to implement that vision. This is why I'm so excited to see how the San Marco Square project has come about. PP3 Projects like this and the process behind its implementation is exactly what urban Jax needs more of.
Well not to mention that really the city's best maintained parks are privately funded parks in Ortega: Stockton and Baker (funding from Ortega families, largely 2-3 in particular). Why this can't be done on a larger level to benefit the entire city as a whole is beyond me. We can talk about how taxes are too low until we're blue in the face, but looking to Atlanta as a comparison, the base millage rate there is 2.5-3x what it is in Jax and the city still can't afford to pave streets let alone beautify its parks (and that's also on top of annual park spending that also swallows Jax. The real difference between great cities that are going places and those that are stagnant or resting on their laurels (in Jax's case...only exists/grows due to low taxes, location, and climate) is the people that make up the cities.
Literally everything from streetscapes to local policing forces to parks to recycling programs, etc is funded by corporate dollars through special tax assessments and donations, and through HNW individual donations. You have a guy who is going to throw something like $300MM of his own cash for a new football stadium (a guy will throw around even more in LA if they can nab a team), you have guys throwing $50MM at a time to Georgia Tech and Emory, a guy who threw something like $75MM to the acquarium. The streetcar took private donations. The Beltline is mostly privately funded. The College Football HoF is privately funded. The Civil Rights Center. Piedmont Park ($100MM+ in the last 2 decades alone for a park)...
Jax doesn't have nearly that kind of money, but on a smaller scale where are the $500K to $5MM donations to public amenities? The Zoo has great funding and that's it. UNF and JU both lack those huge lump sum donations to build up their endowments, but relative to most of the city are very well funded. Everyone's wife volunteers with Nemours/Wolfson's, etc and so that receives a lot of special treatment, but is not a visible public amenity (and every city has hospitals that receive lots and lots of private mula...).
Furthermore, this is a city that can't give without a good ball. No money flows unless at the Cummer Ball, Root Ball, Art/Antique Show, or some party. What's sad, though, is that there never really is an impressive amount of money raised at these events and they are lavish, even by big city standards. Heck, the gay community in Midtown Atlanta can raise more money for AID Atlanta doing a day event in the park or a 5K run (or the Beltline can doing a 5K run) than all the richies of Jax going to some charity ball. It is kind of sad, and I don't even care if I piss people off (I know giving is so touchy...I caught feelings when a friend criticized me for not giving $5 at Publix for Sandy victims not knowing that I give larger lump sum amounts to my own favored institutions in return for tax deductions).
I have to commend Rob Clements for making Everbank a good corporate steward of Jax, but let's be fair...he struck a mega deal for stadium naming rights almost unheard of in the NFL because the Jags had lost so much value (so hardly a charitable move there) and he received mega incentives for a move downtown (not to mention that rent is basically a give away in DT Jax). And then I have to ask the question...where are all the big egotistical developers in town? Jax has never had any...which is another big reason things don't get done. No visionaries. Again...the chairman of all of ULI resides in Jacksonville...one would think he would be moving and shaking and trying to stake some sort of claim for the city of Jacksonville, but in all my years in ULI and reading Urban Land I have never even seen Jacksonville mentioned. That is so pathetic there is no excuse. Every city literally has guys doing exponentially more for their hometown than anyone in Jacksonville has thought about doing. Shahid Khan hasn't even begun to do really big things for Jax yet besides buy the Jags, yet he has already done more than everyone else and he just moved here. LoL.
Quote from: simms3 on January 25, 2013, 12:20:28 PM
And then I have to ask the question...where are all the big egotistical developers in town? Jax has never had any...which is another big reason things don't get done. No visionaries...
Actually this would be technically incorrect, Jacksonville WAS "modern day San Francisco" in mind, spirit and action from the 1890's until the collapse of the Florida Real Estate boom in 1926. Anti-seggregation and anti-discrimination this movie capital was a zany entertainment capital. By 1930 we had stalled out and were sputtering. There have been a few bright spots since then, Consolidation, The Jaguars and of course The Charter Company which was planning a 50 something story tower downtown when they loaded four key executive officers on an ill fated helicopter ride straight into the ground. Everbank is a rather new player, but as Lake has expressed, it's hard to imagine why a city so large and diverse, with so much business history and activity is dead in the water.
People so soon forget that we were a city of movie stars, Flagler's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's, Presidents, gangsters, kings, priests and prince's. "WERE," seem to be the key word.
Ever walk through a mammoth old factory with incredible architectural detail, floor deserted and littered with broken glass? THAT is my Jacksonville analogy. There simply has to be a way to reinstate that lost "can do" spirit.
QuoteShahid Khan hasn't even begun to do really big things for Jax yet besides buy the Jags, yet he has already done more than everyone else and he just moved here. LoL.
ouch if true
looks like someone raked the leaves and other trash under the Pearl Street bridge. Thanks!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 25, 2013, 01:06:48 PM
and of course The Charter Company which was planning a 50 something story tower downtown when they loaded four key executive officers on an ill fated helicopter ride straight into the ground.
Hey Lake,
I just looked up Charter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Company)
Interesting story for what was really a Jacksonville based powerhouse. Definitely a loss for the city.
Perhaps a book on the "Lost Companies" of Jacksonville is next? All I can think of is what a large amount of shareholder value that was based here (along with Barnett & Insurance) that drifted away over time.
Wow.
If the people of Bethel Baptist and the FBC would actually use these parks they would be beautiful by now.
Quote from: kreger on January 27, 2013, 10:06:23 AM
If the people of Bethel Baptist and the FBC would actually use these parks they would be beautiful by now.
Have you surveyed the people in the park in such a way that it shows 'nobody from local churches,' uses the park? Even if the entire congregation of all of the churches in Jacksonville used the park, it would still be a shambles. Fact is, this is not about some church which may or may not play in the park, this is about C I T Y and the absolute, abject, horrible neglect they have shown for our municipal assets.
I did get a chance to pass by the Pearl Street Bridge last night. It was cleaned up. Thanks to whoever took the initiative. I still would like to see the city step up. I sent a formal complaint to the city about the lights. I'm working on an email to the mayor and city council members. I would like to push the relevance to the cities efforts to increase activity downtown. We witnessed how quickly city council will act on downtown issues when Don Redman's Met Park ordinance came up for a vote in the last meeting. It was struck down quick and hard. The city should be ashamed of itself for letting what equates to it's central park rot and simultaneously build a new park on the Northside.
Ock, not to speak for kreger (OK, I am), I think his point was that if the folks from FBC and Bethel used these parks, the membership would bring their considerable pressure to bear on the City - through "their" Councilmembers and others - to make sure these parks were in better shape.
Thanks Charles, that's how I took it too. My problem with this constant 'its the churches' stuff is that he, nor anyone else, can show that church members use the parks disproportionate to the rest of the population.
If the churches 'adopted' a park, I'm sure we'd hear complaints about Bibles in the park, or a lack of liquor. Otherwise, why would a church adopt a park any more then say the Masons, Elks, or Rotary Clubs? Not to mention the fact that city parks are not the general area of expertise among the clergy.
Doesn't Bethel use Klutho Park from time to time? I could have sworn I've seen them utilize it before. FBC has their own green space at Main & Beaver.
Charles- that's exactly what I mean! @ Ocka I think Bethel uses it mostly for parking. I walk, bike, and drive by these areas often. Here is what I see: very few people using the park! I agree, blame the C I T Y. I would just like to see the central park used more. I don't care if you bring bibles to pass out or have a martini with a cheese plate. You could have an NRA redneck wedding for all I care. I just don't understand how or why these parks aren't used! BTW these two churches have many people involved in city government and they don't seem to have a problem exercising their influence in everybody else's lives.
When over 70-80% of your congregation live more than 7 miles from your house of worship, I would surmise that the majority of the attendees don't even know what the park is let alone Hogan's Creek.
It would be fascinating to perform an awareness survey of FBC attenders about urban issues around their house of worship and see what is known.
On the flip side, since FBC does wield some level of influence, if one could sway them to the urban cause as part of their Christian service to the community, it could be a transformative effort.
The Boy Scout troop at Bethel regularly assists our clean ups(it ain't child's play, we wade through feces and clear abandoned homeless camps) and have conducted a few of their own near the church.
Quote from Simms:
Despite what all you people want to say (how Jax companies are involved, Shahid Khan, etc etc), there is a general sense of a "we don't give a fuck" attitude in the city and it shows. There is literally no corporate involvement as compared to most other cities. Corporations and wealthy individuals are literally what built cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, and Charlotte. It's the little things like a $3MM donation to a park that add up and what count. These "investments" don't happen in Jacksonville, but if you want to see a cleaned up central park and major "place-making" activity, it won't happen until public leadership at the top starts pulling some strings and private leadership at the top starts throwing money around and viewing the city as an investment worth growing and protecting rather than a place to shield money and ride the status quo.
WOW! Absolutely spot on, Simms. Jax corporate support, outside of a handful of companies, is pathetic. That includes the really wealthy families and foundations that dot the social/corporate landscape.
I have deep seated anger toward CSX in particular. $2 billion after tax earnings and they do almost nothing to improve the quality of life in our city.
Corporate/private giving is what makes Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Chicago, New York .................. all the great cities I can think of, amazing places where people and other (smaller) corporations want to be.
Quote from: movedsouth on January 26, 2013, 09:29:10 PM
ooks like someone raked the leaves and other trash under the Pearl Street bridge. Thanks!
Courtesy of JSO.
Also, for arguments sake, CSX did bring 100 trees to this park a few years ago:
http://myspringfield.org/sustainability/100-new-trees-in-klutho-park
Just saying. : )
I'd rather step in a big steaming pile of poodle crap than see a bunch of First Baptist Church hypocrites spreading their judgement and delusion in Klutho Park. Let's solve this without their poison.
Quote from: ubben on January 30, 2013, 01:33:56 AM
I'd rather step in a big steaming pile of poodle crap than see a bunch of First Baptist Church hypocrites spreading their judgement and delusion in Klutho Park. Let's solve this without their poison.
Speaking of poison... ::)
Quote from: Bill Hoff on January 29, 2013, 11:17:50 PM
Courtesy of JSO.
Thanks to JSO then! Was this the inmate work program?
Quote from: movedsouth on January 30, 2013, 08:39:29 AM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on January 29, 2013, 11:17:50 PM
Courtesy of JSO.
Thanks to JSO then! Was this the inmate work program?
That program seems to be working out quite well, I've seen them cleaning stuff up numerous times.
Here's a thought: any person receiving unemployment insurance compensation could be required to do 10 hours per week of community service, according to their abilities and experience. Surely you could put together several clean up crews that could take care of some of these public spaces.
Quote from: MusicMan on January 30, 2013, 05:14:10 PM
Here's a thought: any person receiving unemployment insurance compensation could be required to do 10 hours per week of community service, according to their abilities and experience. Surely you could put together several clean up crews that could take care of some of these public spaces.
Personally I'd rather people collecting unemployment be out looking for jobs.
If prisoners are doing it that's a different story, they've got nothing but time on their hands.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 31, 2013, 07:28:15 AM
Quote from: MusicMan on January 30, 2013, 05:14:10 PM
Here's a thought: any person receiving unemployment insurance compensation could be required to do 10 hours per week of community service, according to their abilities and experience. Surely you could put together several clean up crews that could take care of some of these public spaces.
Personally I'd rather people collecting unemployment be out looking for jobs.
If prisoners are doing it that's a different story, they've got nothing but time on their hands.
Thumbs up, Chris. Ten hours out of the week to do "community service" is counterproductive for someone looking for a job. As for the prisoners, let them earn their keep through sweat equity.
10 hours a week would be a welcome relief for someone looking for a job. There is no one in North America who spends 40 hours a week looking for a job. With technological advances like the computer you can be very efficient in doing a job search. I imagine 2 hours per day is the most anyone spends actually searching, if they know how to search.
Quote from: MusicMan on February 03, 2013, 10:04:46 AM
10 hours a week would be a welcome relief for someone looking for a job. There is no one in North America who spends 40 hours a week looking for a job. With technological advances like the computer you can be very efficient in doing a job search. I imagine 2 hours per day is the most anyone spends actually searching, if they know how to search.
It's not a certain number of hours Music Man, the issue is that job-seekers need to be available whenever opportunity knocks. Prisoners, on the other hand, don't have that problem. You're comparing apples to razorback hogs here, this is silly.
Maybe we would have less unemployed people, if we didn't use prison slave labor.
I don't know what prisoners are doing this particular work, but at city hall they (used to ?) hire prisoners for some facilities jobs. They were paid for it, and were selected based on good behavior as a way to integrate back to society. Involuntary "chain gangs" have been gone for over 50 years.
Quote from: Punch Balloon on February 04, 2013, 09:02:20 AM
Maybe we would have less unemployed people, if we didn't use prison slave labor.
But then nothing would get done, because nobody would want to spend the money.
I hear ya, but at least half of all folks receiving unemployment insurance compensation actually have a return to work date, they get the benefit when they are seasonally laid off. Those folks are pretty much sitting around with their thumbs you know where, and my idea allows them to stay a little bit busy and provides an additional group of folks who can help the city at the same time.
hahah this is so true. I live in Tally and i came over for the day, and found this disc golf course and was disgusted with it. I walked under the bridge and it was full of human feces on the sidewalk and trash..
I was like screw this trashy city... and I went back to Tallahassee where its nice.
LMAO!
lakelander seriously...
Downtown Jax is Trash, and so is that springfield park..
Suburban Jax is nice, as are the beaches... but LAWL, the core of Jax is a trashpit!
Tally is a way nicer city overall than Jacksonville.
Except for the rich people who live in riverside/avondale,
and a few other nice neighborhoods.
Tallahassee is getting all the good retail/stores now so there is no reason to leave.
^Oh, I believe you. I just wish we take more value in our appearance. It's pretty damning when we don't make it a priority to properly maintain our best urban public assets and keep them clean.
Lakelander You should team up with Urban Tallahassee.com and have a North Florida meet up sometime..
Yes, that would be cool.
TD....Tallahassee and Jacksonville are 2 very different places....Tally has some built-in advantages, being the home of 2 major universities as well as the state capitol...that said, having spent a good bit of time in both, I'd choose Jacksonville in a heartbeat.
Words that have never been spoke before: "I went back to Tallahassee where its nice."
Tally has a cleaner DT, great schools and a compact cluster of lovely females but it's still a small town with limited economic opportunity for most coming out of school there. Nevertheless, it has come a long way since my days there.
Jacksonville, on the other hand, is a larger city with a lot of potential. It has a decent mix of suburban and urban environments at varying levels of vibrancy, so an underperforming downtown doesn't mean there's no vibe here at all. I'll admit, the opportunity to be a part of something great was a major attraction in my decision to relocate to Jax. Yes, DT and Hogans may not be in the best condition but there is a strong opportunity to be a part of a movement to restore them to their former grandeur. We should not look down on what smaller communities like Tallahassee are accomplishing. For example, what's going on with Gaines Street and Cascades Park is very impressive and something that should serve as an example of what Hogans Creek and Main Street can become.
Quote from: TD* on February 04, 2013, 10:41:19 PM
Suburban Jax is nice, as are the beaches...
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u25/scifipirate/Nicolas20Cage20trying20not20to20laugh1_zps02b3ac31.gif)
lol While you're at it don't forget the cultural mecca that is the Town Center
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2013, 09:20:36 AM
We should not look down on what smaller communities like Tallahassee are accomplishing. For example, what's going on with Gaines Street and Cascades Park is very impressive and something that should serve as an example of what Hogans Creek and Main Street can become.
agreed....much of the cool things happening in Tallahassee (physical landscape) are based on groundwork laid by local planners 5-10 years ago.
I couldnt wait to leave Tallahassee. It's nice but just a little too small. The universities dominate there.
I miss a lot of my friends made during my stay there but I was ready to go as well. I left town for good about a day or two after graduation and never looked back. Whenever I go back, I feel more and more out of place. The college kids actually look like kids now and refer to me as Mr. Davis.
I've said some of this in other threads, so forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but Hogan's Creek absolutely needs a paid staffer of some sort to ever get things going, even if only part time. The city is simply not capable of making it happen. It needs someone to push all the various public entities, like COJ Parks Department, Mayor's Office, Army Corps, EPA, etc to act with urgency; it needs someone to fundraise amongst the large corporations in town, it needs someone to write and administer grants, organize cleanups, and it needs someone to fire the public up.
There are people who try to make things happen for Hogan's Creek, some of whom are quite capable, but without being paid to do it 20+ hours a week, simply aren't able to invest enough of their time to really get things rolling. Tallahassee was able to make it happen on the Capital Cascades Greenway because they had paid staffers actively working on it. Until that happens with Hogan's Creek, it will continue to flounder. Really a shame, because it would be a huge boost to all of Downtown and the Urban Core neighborhoods.....
I noticed some New Ground trucks on both sides of Hogan Creek @ Bethal Church yesterday. Looks like they are replacing dirt. Is that what is going on? At first I thought Bethal was paving for a new lot.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 05, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Words that have never been spoke before: "I went back to Tallahassee where its nice."
I remember when people in Jax used to have a similar attitude towards Charlotte or Nashville. Not that Tallahassee will ever be one of those cities, but it has made leaps and bounds lately and will be making a big move in 5 or so years when all the current projects are done.
We would be ecstatic with all of these projects in the pipeline or under construction in our Urban Core:
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3903/sid,a618c9e9462b44c32d0bd8d3d8ce218d/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,2696/sid,a618c9e9462b44c32d0bd8d3d8ce218d/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3761/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,2086/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3906/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3233/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,2438/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,4104/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3905/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3156/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/forums/viewtopic.php/f,14/t,3098/
http://urbantallahassee.com/v4/index.php/projects-topmenu-28/residential/1223-studio-green
^Oh, there are some cool things happening downtown and near the universities. But needless to say the way things look through the eyes of students and misty-eyed alums may be a bit rosier than the reality. I've always loved Tallanasty, but on the whole it's not what I'd offer as a Platonic example of "nice".
Quote from: CityLife on February 05, 2013, 10:33:52 AM
I've said some of this in other threads, so forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but Hogan's Creek absolutely needs a paid staffer of some sort to ever get things going, even if only part time. The city is simply not capable of making it happen. It needs someone to push all the various public entities, like COJ Parks Department, Mayor's Office, Army Corps, EPA, etc to act with urgency; it needs someone to fundraise amongst the large corporations in town, it needs someone to write and administer grants, organize cleanups, and it needs someone to fire the public up.
About 2 years ago I had it all set up to be that person and would have crushed it, but as often happens in this town, someone else wanted the glory, and yet did absolutely nothing. I used to work at SPAR and agreed to stay working there (at peanuts of my market value) if I could be the project manager of the Hogan's Creek Greenway. I met with the designers of the plan, met with COJ, and started forming a Committee to help implement the plan. However, the ED of SPAR at the time was told that Hogan's Creek would be a high profile project and wanted to put her stamp on it. I said screw that and quit. Her being a former bookkeeper, with no discernible talent, intellect, or knowledge naturally did absolutely nothing with the project or with Main Street, as she was supposed to and the rest is history (or lack thereof).
There are people who try to make things happen for Hogan's Creek, some of whom are quite capable, but without being paid to do it 20+ hours a week, simply aren't able to invest enough of their time to really get things rolling. Tallahassee was able to make it happen on the Capital Cascades Greenway because they had paid staffers actively working on it. Until that happens with Hogan's Creek, it will continue to flounder. Really a shame, because it would be a huge boost to all of Downtown and the Urban Core neighborhoods.....
SPAR Council squashed many good things in the name of something, we just never knew what that was, other than perhaps greed. And that is also going to continue to make it harder to get the funding for an organization to do what you say needs done: get a grant to hire someone like you to take over the campaign for the parks.
I will say though that volunteers once did a great job of getting what was needed for the parks and almost succeeded in getting them restored. The contamination is the only thing that stopped them at the time. Even so, all of the improvements you see from the last 10 years or so were, both directly and indirectly, the result of those older volunteer efforts. The people advocating for the parks can't read your post and think, why bother then? They must be encouraged to continue the struggle. That is the only way that "needed paid staff" may ever get funded. And, like in the past, they might just be very pleasantly surprised at how successful they can be.
The paid staffer I was talking about is needed to do the big picture things I mentioned like fundraise for major corporate donations, write and administer grants, and push all the public sector entities to make things happen. However, it is also needed to coordinate and organize volunteer efforts. As well as involve the public in the process. People need routine community meetings to keep them updated, they need active committees, they need monthly newsletters, and they need good news to keep them involved. When there is nobody doing these things, apathy sets in and little attention is given to the subject.
I have no doubt that over time the park can slowly be transformed by volunteer efforts. However, if you truly want to create a great city park, you absolutely have to have someone facilitating the process, pushing the city/state/feds, raising private money for improvements, writing grants, and publicly advocating for the park. That person/s can be a paid city employee dedicated solely to the project, or they can be funded by a grant or donations to a non-profit.
I can think of 3 missed opportunities off the top of my head just in the past few years that a paid staffer would have been able to improve on or at least create a better dialogue about...1. Use a grant SPAR is already approved for to leverage private donations. 2. Actually have a dialogue about making Hubbard St a pedestrian path, instead of redoing the bridge (the Greenway plan recommends this). This would have connected the Kids Playground/Dog Park to Confederate Park and made it more bike/ped friendly. 3. Create a more unique Disc Golf course. As designed, its pretty much a course in the middle of a field, and thus doesn't drum up much excitement. I personally advocated for a more unique course, but didn't have the time or energy to fight that battle. The last two "opportunities" are more reactionary things too. There are countless things a paid staffer could and would advocate for that haven't been.
I know its cool to DIY and have things be volunteer driven, but this isn't just some little neighborhood green space. Its a massive city park and an opportunity to create a truly great asset for the city and urban core. Imagine how little attention the St. Johns River would be given if there was no Riverkeeper Organization....that is what is currently happening with the Hogan's Creek Greenway.
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You know, we spent years trying to tell you what you've apparently learned on your own about SPAR, so normally I'd make a point of saying I told you so, I can be an unashamed dick like that, especially since we've gone back and forth on the ethics of SPAR over the years. But reading your description of what happened, it's obvious you actually believed in what you were doing and were willing to put yourself on the line for it. That's admirable, I respect that, and I'm honestly sorry it happened to you. Don't let it dampen your optimism for projects you believe in, the problem there wasn't you, and you're better off for going elsewhere where your talents are actually appreciated.
Actually, he's better off looking for grants for Hogans Creek without SPAR. There are other organizations in Springfield (Frends of the Park) who would love to have his help. Don't grant writers receive a portion of the funds in exchange for grant funding?
Chris, I know you and others have problems with some of SPAR's past actions, but there are some great people on the new SPAR board. Some of whom I know you and others have a great deal of respect for. While I had issues of my own, I've moved past them and am trying to help the organization move forward to the benefit of Springfield, though admittedly, I don't have the time to help out nearly as much as I'd like. I know that you and others have strong feelings about SPAR's past and I respect that, but I do hope you realize there are some good new people on the SPAR board. Remember that Lincoln was a Republican...point being that organizations are capable of evolving.
Debbie, I love Hogan's Creek, but just don't have the time to try to get grant funding (I live in SPR, but work in St. Augustine). I know that Christina Parrish has in the past and would be great at the position. Hopefully other opportunities will come up. As you said grant writers can receive a portion of funds and can even use some as administrative costs to fund positions. So if you or, Friends of the Park, or anyone ever see any opportunities, please do make an effort or bring it to the attention of the neighborhood.
Can ya'll take this conversation to another thread? Like maybe the Southern Rock? This is about our park! I think there is at least 100 SPAR threads you could resurrect. Why does every conversation on this blog end up getting off track? Get a room or a museum already!
Quote from: CityLife on February 07, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
Chris, I know you and others have problems with some of SPAR's past actions, and as I've said, the past board made a big blunder with the hiring of a former ED. That said, there are some great people on the new SPAR board. Some of whom I know you and others have a great deal of respect for. While I had issues of my own, I've moved past them and am trying to help the organization move forward to the benefit of Springfield, though admittedly, I don't have the time to help out nearly as much as I'd like. I know that you and others have strong feelings about SPAR's past and I respect that, but I do hope you realize there are some good new people on the SPAR board. Remember that Lincoln was a Republican...point being that organizations are capable of evolving.
Debbie, I love Hogan's Creek, but just don't have the time to try to get grant funding (I live in SPR, but work in St. Augustine). I know that Christina Parrish has in the past and would be great at the position. Hopefully other opportunities will come up. As you said grant writers can receive a portion of funds and can even use some as administrative costs to fund positions. So if you or, Friends of the Park, or anyone ever see any opportunities, please do make an effort or bring it to the attention of the neighborhood.
Well in fairness pointing out that Lincoln was a Republican kind of undermines the point, that party has regressed, not progressed. But I'll let it pass, lol.
Quote from: kreger on February 07, 2013, 08:34:08 PM
Can ya'll take this conversation to another thread? Like maybe the Southern Rock? This is about our park! I think there is at least 100 SPAR threads you could resurrect. Why does every conversation on this blog end up getting off track? Get a room or a museum already!
By all means, free to start your own website and moderate it as you wish.
Follow up. I did receive an email back from Parks and Recreation. The bridge and the sidewalk underneath are under the jurisdiction of the Transportation Department. They informed me that the claim has been forwarded to the right office. A friend of mine also called Parks and Rec. They told him the same thing, but they are supposedly taking the claim pretty serious.
Thanks for making contact, Mathew1056.
Others have been in contact with COJ & other entities about these issues, as well.
Don't think we've met, but if the parks are a particular passion of yours, the Spar Parks chair would love to meet with you about making our parks more of an asset. Send me a message if you're interested.
Who is the SPAR Parks chair? Maybe its on the website but I missed it?
Sent email.
Nothing in the in the inbox. Try Mathew1056@gmail.com. I may have misspelled it to you earlier.
Quote from: iloveionia on February 09, 2013, 07:48:46 PM
Who is the SPAR Parks chair? Maybe its on the website but I missed it?
Wouldn't it be nice if the SPAR Council president (Bill Hoff) could actually answer a question or two? And, I might add, a question that was indeed on topic.
Debbie is right, to sucessfully do something positive for the parks, you need to go to some organization other than SPAR Council. Perhaps you could interest CPAC in it? Seems like something that will benefit the entire Urban Core.
In the past, the Women's Club/ Springfield Improvement Association lead the push to improve the parks.
I don't think it's one group or another that will accomplish the goal of cleaning up the parks. Informing all interested parties is all we can do. Whether you like it or not, SPAR has clout in the Urban Core. I wouldn't mind having them on my side. SPAR serves its function. A more desirable result would include having other organizations involved. Downtown has been given a mandate by voter and survey takers. Springfield stands to gain the most out of other Urban Core neighborhoods. Hitching a ride on the current interest in downtown seems to be the best route. Jax ears are perked.
I think Bill Hoff is a great choice for SPAR president. I think he should answer that question, but something tells me that committee is probably still in the works so there probably isn't a chair yet. I whole heartedly believe that multiple groups can come together on this issue, after all it sits in everybody's backyard (FBC, JEA, Bethel, JTA, FSCJ, etc etc.)
strider,
I don't feel comfortable publishing private citizens names if they don't post on the website, but I'm happy to send the info (chair contact info) privately.
The Hogans Creek Park system is such a huge project, and asset for the general Downtown area and Jax on whole, that it is a far larger undertaking than a volunteer neighborhood organization could tackle alone. To truly address the issues in a comprehensive way, it'll require participation and attention of many entities, including the Urban Core CPAC among others.
Although I do read this site on a regular basis, it's often more effective to contact the organization directly though email, social media, phone, or in-person for a timely response.
*Mathew, just sent you an email.
Oh joy, we're back to closed doors and committees nobody will tell you who's on.
Cause' that worked out so well last time.
Bill, if SPAR has come up with an effective parks committee, then wonderful, I applaud that. You are correct in assuming the correction of City errors in Klutho/Confederate Park is a more vast undertaking than any one organization can handle.
Klutho/Imeson's incredible Venetian promenade was destroyed by City policies in the 60's. The wondeful retention ponds that prevented flooding in the park were filled in with garbage...ash from the 5th and Cleveland incinerator, I believe. I found it laughable that Project New Ground determined the ash in those areas to be from the 1901 fire. Really? Interesting given that those ponds didn't even exist in 1901. Did they check the entire core sample?
Imeson installed special concrete to channel the creek and prevent flooding. There were lock gates at the entrance to the river, probably laying on the bottom outside the Maxwell House plant now.
Not sure where it is now, but the Springfield Improvement Association has an entire file on the Klutho/Imeson project. It was the women of the SIA who successfully lobbied the City to complete the project. And it worked. Time to dust off the plan and do it back the way it was.
Our beautiful park was destroyed and we deserve to have it back.
Amen, Debbie. You can look and see such potential there.