Metro Jacksonville

PSOS is often asked "How does one work on a scary house?" 

And that is a very good question.

What do you do with something that appears to be tinkering on the edge of collapse? What do you do when you walk your south side contractor in and he turns pale and runs?

First things first.  See the house with preservation eyes.  This historic doll has been standing for over a hundred years.  The threat of imminent collapse is greatly over-stated.  Perhaps items are falling off.  Perhaps items are missing, but she was built with lumber that...quite simply...they don't make anymore.  Also, she was built with building practices that are gone with our planned obsolescence consumerism.  She was built to LAST with unimaginable pride in craftsmanship.  Each wall stud, every joist and floor board was made and installed in such a way that there is an element of combined and individual strength.  For example, when a load bearing wall is damaged to the point where it no longer bears its load, other walls rise to the occasion. 

Today's houses don't understand that concept.

Preservation eyes judge deterioration in an old structure in a different manner than new construction.

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/1344Ionia2-1.jpg)

2.) You have to do some work, before you do some work.

Before you begin your remodel of your historic home, you need to make sure that it is safe to work on and in.  Your first step in this process is to walk the house with an architect familiar with historic homes (we have at least one who lives and works on his historic home in the neighborhood).  Ask him/her "what do I need to do to make this structure temporarily safe to work in here?"  He will look at the load bearing structures to see if you need to build a temporary wall to hold it up.

In this case, we built a temporary support to hold up the back side of Kenneth's house:

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/kennybraced.jpg)
Sometimes you have to build a wall before you can build a wall.

We had an architect draw it up and pulled a temporary bracing permit.

Remember this is step one.  Your architect will be involved in the larger project of repairing the structural elements of the house -- but this is not repair.  Kenneth's wall was not built as a structural REPAIR.  This will have to be redrawn, re-permitted, and repaired when the house is ready to be remodeled.  The purpose of this temporary wall is to make the structure safe from collapse and safe to work on.

Another thing to remember; do NOT remove the lathe from the inner walls even if the plaster is gone and you intend to put drywall back up.  One of the reason that these houses have lasted so long is the strength given to the structure by this interior covering.

Quote from: Dog Walker on January 19, 2013, 01:11:05 PM
Another thing to remember; do NOT remove the lathe from the inner walls even if the plaster is gone and you intend to put drywall back up.  One of the reason that these houses have lasted so long is the strength given to the structure by this interior covering.

...not to mention, you screw up the trim spacing/reveal by doing so.

Let's say your house isn't quite so scary as the ones illustrated above.  Let's say that it was totally rehabbed during Springfield's boom.  Let's also say that the paint is flaking off (but really only in selected areas) and let's say the siding is beginning to disintegrate before your eyes.  That's scary enough.

To understand what is going on to your historic house, you need to understand how your house was designed to exist, indeed how it did exist for 100 years, and now what is going terribly wrong.

Previous to the 2000s, the greatest danger to these old houses (excluding, of course, the bulldozer) was termites. We've all seen the wings, the coffee-like turds on window sills, and maybe even the swarms infest our homes en-mass at selected times of the year.

And as damaging as these wood-chomping destroyers are, they are nothing compared to the dangers of not allowing your historic home to BREATHE.

These houses were built using "balloon-framing" techniques.

Here's a section from an article I found on the subject:

Quote
Balloon Frame

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/balloonframing_zps551f0a95.jpg)

In the 1800s people started looking for a way to build houses faster and more inexpensively. Unless you were a skilled housewright most people were unable to cut the complex joinery required for a timber frame house. At this time dimensional lumber (2×4, 2×6 etc.) was fast becoming available along with manufactured nails thanks the Industrial Revolution and railroads. And balloon framing utilized these new materials. Dimensional lumber fastened with nails (not joinery) creates the frame of the house. The aspect that make it unique is that the framing members run all the way from the foundation to the top of the second story. Balloon framed houses use some very long pieces of lumber. The balloon frame eliminated the need for skilled craftsman and therefore made the task of building a house available to the everyman.

There is plenty of debate as to exactly where the first balloon framed house was built and who came up with the idea. Chicago tends to get most of the credit though. It got its name rather dubiously though as it was thought of early on as being such a weak form of construction that the houses would be carried away like a balloon on even the slightest breeze. Though not as strong and imposing as a timber frame, balloon frames were eventually regarded as a more than acceptable way to build a house. And from the 1890s until the 1930s it was the most common form of construction in the country.

The one rather large drawback to balloon framed houses is their fire risk. With wall cavities that are typically uninsulated and run the entire height of the building fire is able to spread quickly and often without notice. Balloon frame houses should be be retrofitted with insulation and fire blocking between stories to retard the spread of fires within the home. This risk is not one to be understated.

http://www.thecraftsmanblog.com/framing-timber-balloon-platform/

Our old houses were designed to grab air from below, channel it up through the exterior wall, and disperse it out through the soffit.

In this way, there was always an air channel which added to the insulation value of the wood lathe and plaster and provided all the insulation needed.

Additionally, this constant movement of air kept the walls dry and mold-free in this once-swamp-of-a-home we call Jacksonville.

QuoteThe one rather large drawback to balloon framed houses is their fire risk. With wall cavities that are typically uninsulated and run the entire height of the building fire is able to spread quickly and often without notice. Balloon frame houses should be be retrofitted with insulation and fire blocking between stories to retard the spread of fires within the home. This risk is not one to be understated.

Many people can testify to the dangers of balloon framing, including firemen who have told us that fighting a fire in a balloon framed house is crazy business.  The same channel which lets the air flow through becomes a chimney for the flames.

So, "fire-blocking" was mandated by national building codes.

Here's a video on how to fire-block a basement to get more info on the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VD_4VBygr0

Fire blocking is the process to seal the space up to prevent the spread of the fire either through wood (for bigger areas) or caulk (through joints and cracks).

So the channels which once allowed for air movement are now tightly sealed, and because these houses are going through the process of renovation, insulation is also added in these channels, what happens when it rains?

The insulation absorbs the moisture through the wood siding, over the windows where the flashing has deteriorated, or gets driven in any number of cracks and crevices from the roof to the crawl space.  And that moisture just sits there.

And the wood rots.

And the paint fails.

And the same siding that was replaced less than ten years ago is falling apart.

They just don't make wood like they used to. 

Yesterday's siding was made from trees which were a hundred years old.  Made from hard hard wood.  Today's siding is made from trees which grow like weeds and the wood is so soft you can dent it with your fingernail.  You can paint, you can prime, you can caulk, but you are dealing with glorified cardboard.

If your house has "lap siding"

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/lapsiding_zpsc9baac7f.jpg)

you are at an advantage.  If my siding was beginning to rot, I would replace the boards with HardiPlank Lap Siding.  Historic Planning Department won't like it very much, but it is the only way you can keep the siding from rotting out again.

While you have the siding off, pull out that nasty insulation and replace it with rigid panels which will provide insulating qualities and allow for airflow.

If you have other types of siding, Dolly Varden, novelty siding, or a variation of these two, it will not be so easy to fix your siding problem.  You will have to replace wood with wood.

Buy the wood siding from the best supplier you can.  We like Carolina Lumber for that.  Their wood is much better than the stuff which is sold at Lowes or Home Depot.

Remove the insulation and replace with the rigid.

At any rate, that's what I would do.

And about the fire blocking?

Should you remove it?

I don't know the answer to this.  I just know that it has caused unintended consequences to these old houses.  And with a quick drive through the neighborhood, you can see which houses are showing the damage from not being allowed to breathe.

The balloon framing also makes it much easier to re-wire and re-plumb our old houses.  Drastically lowers the labor involved.  Pull the baseboards, run the romex and put the plug boxes in the baseboard, not the wall.  Work with an electrician who has done this before and he will give you the best price of all.

PEX pipe is flexible and can be run up the walls like romex too.

Put the boxes and plugs in the baseboards?  Cut up the heart pine?  No way could I bring myself to do that.  No way.  Though I totally get the ease and cost savings: smart indeed. 

Put them in the baseboards with dark brown covers and they disappear.  No need to cut lathe and plaster and no wall acne.

Completely rewired a 1910 American Foursquare this way and used replica push-button wall switches with fancy brass plates in the formal rooms.  Looks completely original.  The house was still all knob and tube when we bought it in 2000.

Quote from: iloveionia on February 04, 2013, 10:26:25 PM
Put the boxes and plugs in the baseboards?  Cut up the heart pine?  No way could I bring myself to do that.  No way.  Though I totally get the ease and cost savings: smart indeed.

When I restored my 1909 Dutch Colonial, there were already holes cut in the baseboards for plugs.  It really is a great alternative to the risk of cracking the entire plaster wall by cutting through plaster and lathe...

Agree Jax Unicorn.  We had to rewire the downstairs in our house.  Small holes in the baseboard, neat outlets.  No having to cut into the walls.  It worked well for us too, although I do see Ionia's point.  But, we have to remember these houses were not built for modern conveniences, and sometimes we have to modify them a bit.  As preservationists, we try to modify them only as much as we have to.

Quote from: sheclown on February 03, 2013, 03:12:01 PM
If your house has "lap siding"

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/lapsiding_zpsc9baac7f.jpg)

you are at an advantage.  If my siding was beginning to rot, I would replace the boards with HardiPlank Lap Siding.  Historic Planning Department won't like it very much, but it is the only way you can keep the siding from rotting out again.

You will have to replace wood with wood.

Actually there is another option if you seek it out, we have cypress sawmills scattered all around us, including way up on Wigmore Street, at: Florida Cypress Wood Products,  Address: 1226 Wigmore St, Jacksonville, Florida
Their website is:  http://floridacypress.com

The manager at Florida Cypress worked with me in my 'recovery operation' of a foreclosure wreck at WGV. Yeah I know it's a cracker box of cheap wood and sheet rock but it now has hardwood floors and thanks to these guys, a beautiful custom fireplace mantel cut from Pecky Cypress.

Put some of this century old sinker lumber on your house and you can hear the termites packing up and hiking off to easier pickings.

Florida Black Water Cypress also has an informational website:
http://www.floridabackwatercypress.com/pecky-sinker-cypress/

Also:

http://sinkertreasures.com
http://www.virgincypress.com/home.html
http://www.recoveredlumber.com
http://riverrecoveredcypress.com

Great info, Ock.  Thanks!

Here's another one.
http://www.heartpine.com/about/news/sunken_treasure.shtml (http://www.heartpine.com/about/news/sunken_treasure.shtml)

And another.  http://www.southernpinecompany.com/ (http://www.southernpinecompany.com/)
Now this one has salvage material.  They save all the homes they can and salvage from those they aren't able to save.  Too bad there are any historic homes that go down, but at least in Savannah, the City allows you to salvage the houses. They don't automatically send it all to the landfill like they do here in Hootersville.

Great resources.

They just don't make wood like they used to.

Osage Orange vases, Pecky Cypress mantel, Glass Tile surround, Travertine, Brazilian Chestnut floor.

Yes the century old (or older) Pecky Cypress is a natural formation, not created by worms. Actually a fungus develops in some very old and very hard, submerged cypress logs.

I had no trouble routing it out with my power router so I could recess the brackets over the mantel. Putting a screw, a new hole or cutting a tiny piece off for trim darn near set my tools on fire. Cutting into this stuff is like trying to put a thumb tack in stainless steel.

My finished product consists of Roma Travertine hearth, a glass tiled fire place surround and the Pecky Cypress mantel. Little by little the poop brown builders carpet vanished - replaced by hardwood. I ended up with enough hardwood leftovers to clad the kitchen island in the same flooring material.


I got lucky last summer when I stopped in to visit Greensburg, Kansas. You might recall that Greensburg was completely wiped off the face of the earth by a massive tornado a few years ago. Stopping was irresistible, remembering the May 3, 1999 tornado swarm in Oklahoma, and having taken the FEMA and NWS courses for storm spotting. Greensburg has a little museum gift shop and in it they have wooden vases made from century old, storm ravaged, Osage Orange fence posts. The fence posts were thrown all over the state in the tornado and the Kansas DOC Juvenile Division uses them to teach woodworking skills to the kids in their care. I bought several and they are a perfect addition to the Pecky Cypress, two of them even have nails from an ancient fence.


The moral of the story is TAKE YOUR TIME, DON'T settle for cardboard, particleboard, wood chip products, masonite and a hundred other plastic or 'wood product' gimmicks.

Ock, your photos are beautiful.  And I agree, if the budget allows for it, by all means go for Cypress or other exotic woods.

Unfortunately, replacing rotting siding sometimes calls for more economical options.  You have to choose carefully, but the Hardiboard siding we have put on houses (including our new construction) has held up remarkably well.  There are problems with some of the newly constructed houses and the manufactured products on the exterior especially the Monarch windows which used factory-applied finger joint trim on the exterior.  So you have to be careful when selecting materials.

We used "Mirtec" trim which is a manufactured product.  It is held up very well.  But it was the more expensive manufactured trim product.

So, if the budget allows, use cypress or exotic woods including reclaimed, but if not, it is better to use the well-made manufactured products than cheap wood that they sell at Home Depot or Lowes.  That, my friend, is the "wood product gimmick" !

Thanks Sheclown.

I've seen lots of the Hardiboard product broken up, crumbling, chipping or pulling apart.  There appears to be a VERY strict way to install this stuff but even so the formulation has changed 8 times in the last 10 years.

There is a good informational site at:
http://www.structuretech1.com/2009/08/problems-with-james-hardie-siding-installations/

If it isn't installed letter perfect, you could be in for some replacement costs.



THE BRENTWOOD - BELLAIR FIRE

In 1961, a construction crew working in Sherman Oaks noticed the smoke and flames in a nearby pile of rubbish. Within minutes, Santa Ana winds gusting up to 60 mph sent burning brush aloft and ultimately seared November 6, 1961, into Los Angeles' civic memory.

Life magazine called it "A Tragedy Trimmed in Mink," and glittering stars of stage and screen scrambled to do battle with the blaze that swept through Bel Air and Brentwood that day. Flaming embers danced from roof to wood-shingled roof, spreading the fire across the Santa Monica Mountains to the south and into the affluent Westside enclaves.

More than 300 police officers helped evacuate 3,500 residents during the 12-hour fire, and more than 2,500 firefighters battled the blaze, pumping water from neighborhood swimming pools to douse flames in some areas. Pockets of the fire smoldered for several days. Even as firefighters battled what was to become the Bel Air disaster, a separate fire had erupted simultaneously in Santa Ynez Canyon to the west, further straining local firefighting resources. That blaze was contained the next day after consuming nearly 10,000 acres  and nine structures and burning to within a mile of the inferno raging in Bel Air and Brentwood.

At least 200 firefighters were injured, many by the tar from the roofs of the homes, but no one was killed. Still, the fires were the fifth worst conflagration in the nation's history at the time, burning 16,090 acres, destroying more than 484 homes and 190 other structures and causing an estimated $30 million in damage.

Today, cedar shake shingles and siding are ILLEGAL in Southern California. Cedar is very light and extremely flammable, once it's lit it quickly burns to a ultra light, airborne ember. 

When balloon framing first was introduced, the skeptics of the day said the houses would implode.  The materials were junk, the method flawed and the houses would never last.  And yet today, we see it as a superior construction method to what we do today.  Human nature doesn't seem to change much through the centuries.  Another interesting thing is that there is a big difference in the wood in houses built in the 1890's compared to the 1900's.  Local old growth to Georgia old growth?  Perhaps.  But the bottom line is that as we use our natural resources up, we still have to keep on truckin' so things like Miratec and Hardiboard come about and in many cases, when used properly, are far superior to many of the "natural" wood products of today.

Cedar, though your post, Ock, makes it seem like this terrible thing, was actually once considered a superior building product.  Light, strong and termite resistant, houses were built with cedar studs, cedar siding and are still all over Jacksonville.  In the end, while there are certainly concerns, no one should panic if they live in a house with cedar shakes on it or cedar studs in the walls.  If that were the case, then no one should live in a house with the old heart pine in it either.  It burns too well and hot.  Or many of the modern materials that give off toxic gases when burning.  Let's face it, the best thing is to avoid that fire to begin with.

Modern wood is, to be kind, often crap. Trees are "designed" to grow fast and straight.  A 6x6 from 100 years ago under one of these old houses probably has a safety factor of 10 to 1.  It can be more than half eaten away and still not sag between piers.  A new 6x6 is barely up to the task.  In fact, it has changed so much in the last few years I am beginning to look for alternatives as I fear new 6x6's may no longer be up to the task.  I believe that with the more modern construction techniques and the old wood, all of the steel we have to put into houses toady would not be needed. It is the strength of, or rather, the lack of strength of many of the materials, that require it.

It is interesting that to preserve the old, we need to embrace the new.

Here is a subject on which I can comment with a level of expertise.

1) Traditional balloon framing is a good way to increase the lifespan of wood siding as well as cool a structure in the summer. (Marginally, but it does help) Balloon framing is still used in some cases, but these days it must be 'fire blocked' per code, so the chimney effect is lost, as well as any benefit for exterior siding/sheathing.

2) There is mention of 'steel' being required in modern framing, but it is not so much due to the lower quality of lumber now used, rather it is used to prevent the structure from falling 'up' (blowing away/over). The wood keeps the structure from falling 'down'. Steel is used as support in some applications, although pretty rare in modern residential framing. Usually used in custom framing, and in oceanfront applications where wood fails to meet wind loads determined by structural engineers as set within building codes.

3) This is not to suggest that wood used in older homes is not of better quality. Old growth heart pine is denser, has more tensile strength, is straighter, is more stable (less tendency to warp/bend), is prettier, and can withstand greater wind loads (stress) per board foot. Modern structural engineering makes these factors largely irrelevant.

3a) Old growth lumber came to us at a great environmental cost.

4) Q: If this is true, why are these 100+ year old structures still standing? A:Because they are still standing. (They have not been subjected to forces which would exceed their capacity) More modern structures, built with younger lumber are standing as well. My opinion is that manufacturers of structural tie downs and insurance companies have successfully lobbied state legislators to enact building codes that are in many cases superfluous to what is actually cost effective/structurally necessary in terms of buildings 'blowing away' in a storm.

5) Is the structural capacity of an older building greater than that of a newer building? Sometimes yes... most times, no.

6) Does balloon framing allow for increased lifespan of siding/sheathing/framing? Yes. It is IMO more resistant to water damage because water is allowed to drain/dry in of any part of the structure. ( The building is less water tight) This comes at a price: A much quicker incineration rate in cases of fire... (Chimney effect as mentioned by others) more danger for firefighters and rescuers... decreased response potential.

7) New techniques attempt to be more airtight/water repellent. This also comes at a price: Water, which will inevitably penetrate our feeble, yet earnest attempts to repel it, is not allowed to evaporate/drain. It will cause rot in every
instance it breaches vapor barriers. It's trapped. Where water gets trapped, rot occurs, and carpenter ants are close behind.

8.) Post-housing-bust framing carpenters gotta eat too...... CHA-CHING!

Good post Buckethead.

I would be tempted to use steel on residential.  Termites, fire, mold.  Seems to make a lot of sense in Jacksonville.  I have used it in commercial work in the DC area -- mainly in office building remodels.   Pretty easy to get used to.  Carpenters can be trained to use metal studs. :)

Insurance would be easier to come by.

zip zip zip fine threaded screws and a good screw gun.

Our old growth wood did come at a great environmental cost -- which is one reason old houses should never be taken to the dump.  The most valuable wood in these houses (IMHO) isn't the fancy stuff inside as much as the huge girders underneath.  Okay, the fancy stuff inside is pretty cool too.

Plaster Problems:

In Springfield, houses were plastered using (of all things) horse hair.  This is why some people's senses go berserk when removing or sweeping up the plaster.  It was applied using several coats, usually a base coat, a brown coat and then a final coat. 

After a hundred years or so, the plaster starts to fail (although the plaster is most vulnerable to over-zealous remodel plans).  It can fail in a couple of ways.  Sometimes the final coat fails and you rub the walls and watch it disintegrate.  This can be fixed by rubbing off the top coat and applying a good quality primer like Zinsser's Bulls Eye.  After the primer dries, you can put some drywall mud over the primer to even out the walls.

Sometimes the two top coats fail and it chunks off leaving the scratch coat. I would prime the area remaining and then use 45 minute mud (which is tougher than regular drywall mud and has to be mixed with water -- but warning here, it is also tougher to sand).

Quite often there are cracks.

A crack can be "opened up" with a sharp object and scooped out.  Apply drywall mud and tape (either the mesh or the paper).  When this dries, sand and reapply mud to a larger area.  It will, most likely take several coats to blend this in to the surrounding area.

But the most common way it fails is the keys in the back break off and it separates from the wall.

(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/plasterkeys.jpg)

The keys are the spaces in-between the wood lathe where the plaster is forced through.  That blop of plaster dries and secures the material in place.  For a variety of reasons, the keys can sometimes begin to fail and then chunks of plaster separate from the wall.

You can buy fasteners which secure the plaster in place, but my experience tells me to remove it in affected areas.  I give it "the tickle test"

If you can easily remove it with your fingers, take it down.

You will probably end up with an uneven surface, so squaring it up may be a good idea.  Be careful tho'  don't get too carried away.  It begins to be like peeling skin off a sunburn.  Stop when you hit a healthy surface.

When your plaster is removed, and your surface is smooth (no nails sticking out, etc).  You can measure the area and use 3/8 inch drywall to replace the missing plaster.  About at this point, some purists are screaming REPLACE IT WITH THE PLASTER

So, you can by all means replace it with plaster if you desire.

But a drywall patch is perfectly acceptable and will blend in just fine. 

A thing about the thickness:  most times 3/8 works best.  The plaster at the top of your wall is thicker than at the bottom.  So, it may be that near the bottom of the wall 1/2 inch works okay, but it is easier to add material to a drywall surface than to subtract it.

After you screw it into place, tape and mud as you would any drywall surface.  (Tape, mud, sand, mud, sand, mud, sand) And then prime and paint.

And btw, you can take a terry cloth rag and dampen it and wet sand the surface to minimize dust.

This is a job that with patience, a weekend warrior could tackle. 

Play with Plaster!! 

Save the walls, every last one of them.

REPLACE IT WITH PLASTER!  (Ok, scream over)  Jim Coleman of Jim's Stucco and Plaster replaced square yards of plaster in my 1910 American Foursquare.  When finished it was as smooth as the inside of a bathtub and in a decade has never cracked.

Drywall attached to the original wood lathe has almost the same strength as plaster when it is first installed, but if it ever gets damp, even a little bit, it has no structural strength left at all.  The interior wood lathe and plaster walls are a significant contributor to the structure of a balloon framed house.

Never, never, never, never remove the lathe from the frame of the house.  If you have to then every square inch of the wall needs to be covered with 3/8" plywood before drywall or plaster is added back to finish.

How many hurricanes have our century old houses survived?

I agree, NEVER NEVER NEVER remove the lathe.

But drywall certainly is an acceptable alternative to plaster.  It is cheaper & easier for DIY.

Remember, these houses need to work for the average Joe.  If funds are available,  by all means hire a plasterer.  Why not??  But if funds are not available, remember, you can do it yourself and do it cheaply.

Just make sure you use the moisture resistant stuff!

Drywall,sheet rock, gypsum board,whichever you wish to call it, by the way, is basically plaster in pre-made sheet form.  Today about all of it has some kind of mold or mildew resistance and therefore some amount of moisture resistance.  It would be wonderful if everyone could go back with plaster on an old wall but it is at least three times the cost (if not more) than drywall.  Assuming you can find someone who is really doing plaster work and is really good at it. While most think that plaster work is by far superior than drywall, it is at best most often simply equal.  Most walls are far from flat and often are much thicker around the baseboards (a ledger is there to use as a guide), thinner in the middle and thick at the upper corners. Corners are seldom 90 degree except often at that wood ledger.  That is how the carpenters got the base boards to fit so well.    Many times the walls and ceiling were textured ( sand texture very often used) to help hide that wavy look.  While older houses have picture rails about 16 or so inches from the ceiling, a few decades later that same picture rail was moved up close to the ceiling.  While it did indeed serve as a picture rail, it's other purpose was to move the eye from the ceiling corner so you wouldn't notice how wavy it was. Of course, like today, quality of the work is varied.

The original scratch coat is actually closer to the mortar used to lay brick than what most think of as plaster.  Sometime in the late 20's or 30"s a switch was made from wood lathe to metal mesh.  This is by far the worst thing to remove from a wall.  Along about the late 40's, 50's, they were still doing plaster on the walls but were using Drywall based strips and sheets as the lathe. And of course, still using mesh and chicken wire as "tape" and under tile.  Obviously at some point, plaster fell out of favor due to costs and today I'd say 98% of all new walls are drywalled.

I do believe plaster, or rather the entire wall system, stands up to humidity better than drywall. (With wood lathe, it has an R value of about 9, by the way.) It is still subject to damage and failure from water, meaning roof and water line leaks cause the same amount of damage. And plaster fails pretty quickly when a house is left un-lived in. The more varied temperature variances do in the keys and it holds moisture longer causing paint failure.

Basically, yes, plaster is better, but there is no reason to break your budget to do it.

A friend shared this blog. "Myths about insulating old houses"

http://bobyapp.com/blog/2009/06/myths-about-insulating-old-house-walls

It does not mention whether closed cell insulation such as isonene or a corn based foam (don't know the name of that one) would be more effective and/or less harmful to the structure. It occurs to me that if applied to the plaster side of the wall, it would serve as an interior vapor barrier, while allowing for vapor transfer to the exterior of the structure.

Don't insulate the walls!!  Just stop air infiltration.  We don't have severe enough winters for wall insulation and the problems it can cause.

I'm going to experiment with attaching tyvek housewrap to the bottom of the joists to completely seal my old house from the drafts that come through the pocket doors and the around the plug boxes.  That should stop the drafts without stopping the movement of moisture vapor. 

Anybody have thoughts on that plan?

Here is a site that may address your concerns regarding insulation, air barriers and vapor barriers. Follow the links in the left column, sit back and enjoy the read. In the past, the studies have been the topic of many discussions on a contractors site I frequent but the science is sound and I the author(s) differentiate based on climate, ie. North vs South.

http://www.buildingscience.com/index_html

I don't see why anyone would blow insulation into the walls, it will settle over time and will lose its effectiveness.  That is why you have the paper or foil backed insulation that is stapled to the studs.  Of course to install this you would need to strip the plaster off the walls. 

Cost vs. effect.  We spent money spraying foam in the attic.  Little or no difference in the electric bill.   Start with the cheapest thing first...weatherstripping, foam inserts on the back of exterior wall plugs, etc.  Drapes or blinds on the windows.  Do those first and see how it helps.

Quote from: Ralph W on April 01, 2013, 10:08:30 AM
Here is a site that may address your concerns regarding insulation, air barriers and vapor barriers. Follow the links in the left column, sit back and enjoy the read. In the past, the studies have been the topic of many discussions on a contractors site I frequent but the science is sound and I the author(s) differentiate based on climate, ie. North vs South.

http://www.buildingscience.com/index_html

Thanks, Ralph!  That is a terrific site that is going to take a while to explore.  Great resource.

We were all but promised another code enforcement sweep through Springfield in the not-too distant future.  It may be a good time to take some pre-blight-inspection preventative measures.

An easy target for blight fines is peeling paint.  Oh, don't we remember the pain of Mr. Foster! 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,21571.0.html

If you have some areas of peeling paint, but don't have the 10 grand or so to repaint, consider taking a piece of that peeling paint to Brintons on Park Street and have them color match the chip with some primer.  You can scrape what needs it and prime the area with the color-match.  Oddly enough primer lasts a good long time as a top coat and, unlike the top coat, has special bonding qualities to make it adhere to the tough spots.  I recommend the new product from Britons "Holdz" which runs about $100 a five gallon bucket. 

If you are concerned about lead on your house, you can purchase lead swab test kits.  Each swab is about $5 and will let you know what sort of hazard you are dealing with.  Don't worry about EPA if you are doing the work yourself -- the government will let you take the risk without punishing you.  However, you might want to take precautionary measures if your swab turns bright red (ie, wash hands, wear N95 respirator, don't grind, clean up chips).

If you tackle the peeling paint job a little bit at a time, you will be more than prepared for the next "inspection" -- and protect that 100 year old siding in the process. Focus on the front and the sides most visible from the street.

While you are at it, nail in a few of those dangling pieces of siding and prime your repairs.

Another area of easy fund-raising for the city last April was citing for trash.  Why not split the cost of a dumpster with a neighbor or two and throw all of those accumulated treasures you thought you'd use -- but haven't -- away?  If the termites have started feasting on them, they are toast anyway.  This also goes for those paint buckets from five years ago and the hard brushes from the last maintenance job.  It is much easier to get a dumpster than to bag it and call the city.  A dumpster can run about $300 -- if you can get some cooperation with your friends, you can make clean up much easier and economical.

And while you are at it, cleaning up the vacant house next door would be a nice gesture.

Probably the most cited was for over-grown lawns and weeds in gardens.  There is no protection from this sort of craziness, the only point it that you really don't want anyone who is clad in khakis and a polio shirt paying much attention to your yard.  Overgrown grass draws hungry eyes to other items.

In case you are new to the neighborhood, here is what happened last year. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,21163.0.html

Good luck and get going.

Quote from: sheclown on March 30, 2013, 09:40:40 PM
A friend shared this blog. "Myths about insulating old houses"

http://bobyapp.com/blog/2009/06/myths-about-insulating-old-house-walls

Since it is cold and there has been an increase in interest in places like Springfield, this article seems worth revisiting as well.

I am planning to start work rehabbing a 1905 house in Springfield. Thanks to all for all the very useful advice and info.

I am new to the area and I'm looking for a reliable GC to work with which knows Springfield and specifically historical homes since as many have mentioned, a Southside GC would take one look and run the other way. I'm looking to restore the home as best as possible to its original state.

If anyone can share someone whom they've had a good experience with, that would be awesome.

TIA

Joed. 

Steve, from a Palace Company, is very familiar with working on scary houses (he owns one himself!)  His contact info is:

904-307-5518.  He's a GC and a roofer.

I recently purchased a home in Avondale and am having issues with window condensation forming on the inside and causing mold growth on the mullions. from what I understand these old windows had weep hopes at one point, but many have since been painted over. Anyone have a permanent fix for this? Or should I just give the windows a good cleaning every month?

Quote from: camarocane on March 12, 2015, 02:04:18 PM
I recently purchased a home in Avondale and am having issues with window condensation forming on the inside and causing mold growth on the mullions. from what I understand these old windows had weep hopes at one point, but many have since been painted over. Anyone have a permanent fix for this? Or should I just give the windows a good cleaning every month?

Do all of the windows on the same side of the house have this problem?  Or is it only this one.

If it is only one, then perhaps there is a leak above the crown where flashing should be and water is getting in there.

Is this happening in the summer?  With the AC on?

Any HVAC guys out there -- with experience in older homes -- care to jump in on this?

Quote from: sheclown on March 12, 2015, 12:22:03 PM
Joed. 

Steve, from a Palace Company, is very familiar with working on scary houses (he owns one himself!)  His contact info is:

904-307-5518.  He's a GC and a roofer.

Thank you for the recommendation. I will definitely reach out to him.

Quote from: sheclown on March 12, 2015, 06:39:23 PM

Quote from: camarocane on March 12, 2015, 02:04:18 PM
I recently purchased a home in Avondale and am having issues with window condensation forming on the inside and causing mold growth on the mullions. from what I understand these old windows had weep hopes at one point, but many have since been painted over. Anyone have a permanent fix for this? Or should I just give the windows a good cleaning every month?

Do all of the windows on the same side of the house have this problem?  Or is it only this one.

If it is only one, then perhaps there is a leak above the crown where flashing should be and water is getting in there.

Is this happening in the summer?  With the AC on?

Any HVAC guys out there -- with experience in older homes -- care to jump in on this?

All windows have this problem, only when I'm running the heat though... Moved here is September. Now that the temperature is warmer it's not as bad, I'm assuming it's just the temp differential in the winter wit the warm air inside, condensing on the windows. It's something I may just have to live with, pain in the butt though.

I am looking to renovate the bathroom in my 1925 Bungalow in Riverside, which has already had a very bad renovation by the previous owner (strange layout, window replacement, etc). Anyway, they removed the plaster walls in favor of drywall, and they may have insulated as well (I will find out once I open it up). Should I remove the insulation? Also, if I have no insulation, and there is no moisture barrier on the outside of the house (wood siding), do I skip any kind of vapor barrier? Do I just go with properly sealed cement board around the shower and other wet areas that I am going to tile? Is plaster a reasonable option in the shower area?

This is what the National Park Service says about insulating old homes:

Quote
Install Insulation

Natural air movement within a building, temperature differential between the heated and unheated spaces, and accessibility make the attic the most cost-effective location for insulation. However, insulating basements or crawlspaces can also have value in improving both comfort and efficiency. Therefore, these two locations are often the places to begin. Attics and basements are often moist or humid environments, and these conditions can greatly compromise the insulating factor of any material. Thus, good ventilation and moisture control are necessary to maintain a thermal barrier in these spaces. The Department of Energy provides detailed information about the various factors to consider when installing insulation in attics and crawl spaces.

Ducts and pipes can also be sources of conductive heat loss. Wrapping insulation around heating and cooling ducts and hot water pipes can stop heat loss and enhance the efficiency of these systems. Use insulation that is intended for this purpose and install it according to manufacturer's recommendations for the best results.

In general, adding insulation to the walls of historic buildings is not a cost-effective or sensitive treatment. Adding blown-in insulation to historic wall assemblies may trap moisture within the wall and lead to accelerated and often hidden deterioration of the structure. Proper installation of wall insulation involves the removal of historic finishes that can be damaged in the process. If walls are so deteriorated that complete replacement is required, insulation can be properly installed with a vapor barrier as the wall is repaired. It is best to limit insulation to attics and basements where it can be installed with minimal damage to the historic building.

When you open up the walls, you will be able to see if the insulation is holding any moisture.  That is the big problem with insulating the old home.  If it is you should certainly remove the insulation and not replace it. 

I don't think plaster is practical from an economic stand-point once the old has already been removed.  If you want the plaster walls, prepare to pay about 4 times as much as drywall would cost. 

Well sealed cement board is what we use for shower areas. 

Regarding Vapor Barriers:

Quote
Vapor Barriers Are a Good Thing, Right?

Vapor barriers are supposed to stop vapor diffusion through roofs, walls, and floors. But they can also can trap moisture, causing rot and mold.

- See more at:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/qa-spotlight/vapor-barriers-are-good-thing-right

I think the jury is still out about vapor barriers. 

Amanda Searle's blog gives some advice about financing the work on a scary house:

05/26/2015 By amandasearle

QuoteFinancing a Home in Need of Renovation

Finding the perfect home isn't always easy. Sometimes, the home you prefer has the character of a historic home, but needs renovations.

You might have the perfect home in mind, but you know it has to be renovated before you can settle in with your family. If this sounds like your situation, it's important to find the right financing. Here are a few common financing options for homes needing renovations.

read more:

http://intownjacksonvillerealestate.com/wordpress1/financing-a-home-that-needs-renovation-work/