Looks like Bass Pro Shop is finally going to open in Jacksonville. In St Johns County at the planned interchange of 9B and I-95. According to a facebook post from the Daily Record. No link to a story yet on their website.
link to story: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=538337
Your tax dollars at work.
St Johns County tax dollars! haha. I am curious to find out how much they paid them to open there.
depending on where exactly it would be in relation to the interchange, it might in fact be in Duval County
Karen Brune Mathis post said St Johns County on land owned by Gate.
Damn shame that NOBODY in the City Hall was on the ball enough to sell both IKEA and BASS PRO on the Shipyards site. Both companies have waterfront models and it would have sent a tremor of new development through downtown.
No matter how much one likes or dislikes the outdoors or sporting life style, their stores are pretty incredible. Bass Pro will hire several hundred people and the store itself should be upwards of 150,000 square feet. Let's just hope that here in the Redneck Riviera, they don't short sell us and open one of their 'Wide World Sportsman,' 'Sportsman Center,' or 'Sportsman Warehouse,' locations which are much smaller and average around 50,000-80,000 square feet each.
With some big shakeups at Cole Haan and Nike this could be good news for those in the retail industry. Cole Haan was sold and greeted their Orlando employees this morning with 'This is your last day, we're closed.'
Bass Pro is opening one up in the old Pyramid Arena in Memphis.
I think the planned interchange of I-95 and 9b is in Duval. Race Track Road basically runs on the county line and the interchange is north of there.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 21, 2012, 09:24:10 PM
Damn shame that NOBODY in the City Hall was on the ball enough to sell both IKEA and BASS PRO on the Shipyards site.
that was so never going to happen...nor should it have....I can't think of a worse land use for the river downtown than big biox stores
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2012, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 21, 2012, 09:24:10 PM
Damn shame that NOBODY in the City Hall was on the ball enough to sell both IKEA and BASS PRO on the Shipyards site.
that was so never going to happen...nor should it have....I can't think of a worse land use for the river downtown than big biox stores
IKEA and BassPro are what are called "destination shopping" locales. Meaning people go there because of who they are, not necessarily out of convenience.
Not sure what Ock was thinking, but if one wanted to place this downtown, it would be (IMHO) to get more people circulating in the central business district.
A Big Box store format wouldn't be appropriate perhaps, but there have been urban adaptations of big box stores that have been very successful elsewhere.
If a developer came to me with a IKEA proposal with a urban style large format retail for downtown, I would jump on it.
Quote from: spuwho on December 21, 2012, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2012, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 21, 2012, 09:24:10 PM
Damn shame that NOBODY in the City Hall was on the ball enough to sell both IKEA and BASS PRO on the Shipyards site.
that was so never going to happen...nor should it have....I can't think of a worse land use for the river downtown than big biox stores
IKEA and BassPro are what are called "destination shopping" locales. Meaning people go there because of who they are, not necessarily out of convenience.
Not sure what Ock was thinking, but if one wanted to place this downtown, it would be (IMHO) to get more people circulating in the central business district.
A Big Box store format wouldn't be appropriate perhaps, but there have been urban adaptations of big box stores that have been very successful elsewhere.
If a developer came to me with a IKEA proposal with a urban style large format retail for downtown, I would jump on it.
Bass Pro Shops
claims they're "what are called 'destination shopping' locales", and then demands a ton of incentives for the privilege of opening in your city (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/08/why-have-so-many-cities-and-towns-given-away-so-much-money-bass-pro-shops-and-cabelas/2906/). I don't think anyone's ever demonstrated their stores are worth the cost in and of themselves. I tend to agree with tufsu that a big box store would be a terrible use for waterfront property downtown, especially if we have to pay out to get it. I'd be surprised if they hadn't had incentives talks with Jax already; they clearly want to open here.
IKEA, on the other hand, open up where they want to, but they have stringent site selection criteria they tend not to vary from, and evidently Jax doesn't meet them. Another dead end on that one.
Looks like it's definitely in St. Johns County.
"We were all encouraged by the long-awaited 9B/I-95 interchange being awarded this past August by the FDOT," says St. Johns County Commissioner Cyndi Stevenson.
"Information about county or state assistance for the development was not immediately available," says the Daily Record.
Go figure.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=538337&searchtext=\
Quote from: Tacachale on December 21, 2012, 11:15:06 PM
Looks like it's definitely in St. Johns County.
"We were all encouraged by the long-awaited 9B/I-95 interchange being awarded this past August by the FDOT," says St. Johns County Commissioner Cyndi Stevenson.
"Information about county or state assistance for the development was not immediately available," says the Daily Record.
Go figure.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=538337&searchtext=\
The I-795/I-95 planned interchange is still on the Duval side of the line. If this is St John's County, then it would have to be where 9B was supposed to do a loop back on the St Johns side of Race Track Road.
I am confused, the 9B/I-95 interchange won't have any access to local streets - so building a store "at" the interchange makes no sense to me. Perhaps, as part of their incentives, St. Johns County is going to extend 9B down to Racetrack Road?
just saw it hit the action news site. still don't see how it can be in st Johan if they are talking about this intersection
Well If they want to build this in the middle of now where then thats their lost. ;D
It will do well here, no matter what side of the county line it is on. This is an "outdoor" market.
I'm sure it will, which is another reason I see no call to give them incentives to open up here.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 22, 2012, 12:40:02 AM
I am confused, the 9B/I-95 interchange won't have any access to local streets - so building a store "at" the interchange makes no sense to me. Perhaps, as part of their incentives, St. Johns County is going to extend 9B down to Racetrack Road?
Well there is a PD&E study underway for that segment ;)
I blame the confusion on local "news" outlets publishing company press releases without checking up on them ... asking just "where" the new store will be. I really don't expect the local "news" readers to even understand they should also ask "why" (there and not somewhere else), "who" is providing incentives, and "how" much are they? ... OK, "what" is the new store.
Alright, by my participation here, is evidence I'm a transportation and planning junkie ... but would the local media have printed without question that a new store was going to be built at the "I-10 / I-95 interchange" without asking just 'where' they meant? (Sadly, no, I don't think they would ... :( )
So St. Johns County gets the added property and sales taxes ... unless they've incentivized it away.
I sure hope the new store isn't going into the path identified - but not yet purchased - for the 9B extension into St. Johns.
actually I kind of hope it is...the 9B extension is a terrible idea (even worse than 9B itself)...would have made more sense to get an interchange at Racetrack Road
ST. JOHNS COUNTY, Fla. -- Hundreds of new jobs and a new holiday shopping destination are in the works for northern St. Johns County.
Bass Pro Shops announced Friday that it will open a 104,000 square foot store off of proposed new highway 9-B to serve the Jacksonville area.
Bass Pro Shops is known for its sports and outdoor equipment.
The store will be situated on a 40-acre area that includes a 14-acre lake that will be managed for trophy bass and youth and community events.
“It’s a beautiful site and we believe we have found the absolute best retail location in the Jacksonville area to build a new super outdoor store. We are very grateful for the support of everyone at Gate Petroleum, St. John’s County and Governor Rick Scott for this wonderful opportunity,†said Founder of Bass Pro Shops Johnny Morris.
The store will generate approximately 250 jobs and is slated to open sometime during the year 2014.
Looks like some form of incentives are in play...
QuoteRichard Goldman, executive director of the St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra and the Beaches Visitors and Convention Bureau, said landing the Missouri-based company’s commitment was a collaborative effort. It involved the county Economic Development office, St. Johns County Chamber of Commerce and the visitors and convention bureau.
“It is a big deal,†Goldman said. The company “has a reputation for creating a destination. [In] St. Johns County and Duval County as a region, so much of our assets are associated with the outdoors that it made sense for them to put it in.â€
St. Johns County spokesman Michael Ryan said the government’s development agreement with Bass Pro Shops is not complete and there are “preliminary discussions†about potential tax incentives. He said negotiations will be “expedited†after Jan. 1.
QuoteAleizha Batson, spokeswoman for Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown, said the outdoor store would not have qualified for any tax incentives in Jacksonville. Still, the city is happy that Bass Pro is to be located nearby.
“Having a Bass Pro Shops right on the other side of the Duval County border helps to support our region as a destination for ecotourism and it helps to diversify options for consumers,†Batson said in an email statement.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-12-26/story/bass-pro-shops-st-johns-county-means-outdoor-retail-escalation#ixzz2GDOic760
Can't wait to hear how much they're for. What's sad is this is clearly a company that wanted to be in NE Florida anyway, and probably would have come regardless of incentives.
Great article on how incentives for Bass Pro Shop/Cabela's turn out: Why Have So Many Cities and Towns Given Away So Much Money to Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's? (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/08/why-have-so-many-cities-and-towns-given-away-so-much-money-bass-pro-shops-and-cabelas/2906/)
Oops saw Tacachale already posted the article. Sorry.
so not even the T-U can figure out exactly where this will be located (no map with the story).
But, after perusing various maps, I believe it will be located on the southside of Racetrack Road west of I-95...and the lake mentioned in the story is basically behind the rest area on the interstate....the property appears to be owned by Durbin Creek National LLC (which may be somehow affiliated with Gate).
Of course the problem, as others have noted, is that 9B isn't being constructed to go south of I-95...in fact, the additional ramps and connection to Race Track Road haven't even been designed yet (theyare going through environmental study/approval currently)....and funding hasn't been identified.....so unless that changes pretty quickly, it would seem this new store won't have access to I-95 or 9B for many years.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 26, 2012, 09:57:17 PM
Can't wait to hear how much they're for. What's sad is this is clearly a company that wanted to be in NE Florida anyway, and probably would have come regardless of incentives.
I don't think they would have come without incentives, which I have no doubt were very substantial in this case. Because their model is building based on taxpayer subsidy, they can't build one store without them. That would lead to all future localities asking why they should do so.
The article JFman00 linked covers the bases very well. Bass Pro wants to build in Greenville SC, but has not gotten any deal on incentives, so they continue to stay on the sidelines waiting for a new Governor or Mayor to see it their way.
St. John's is no doubt going to pay the piper. I think their rationale is that Bass Pro coupled with the Outlets and the World Golf Village will give them the snergy and cluster of tourist attractions they need to stand apart as a tourist destination in their own right.
Bass Pro Shop originally wanted to be at the Avenues Walk. City said no to incentives and so now they go to St Johns County with their hands out.
I have no problems with the COJ not giving Bass Pro incentives. Constantly handing out incentives can eventually become detrimental. I really couldn't care less if BPS comes to the region or not. Isn't there already a Gander Mt. down there?
Tallahassee is getting one later in 2013. Not sure of any sort of handouts, but it might just be a quiet deal. Too bad I can't get a handout, and no taxes for my house, or any improvements I would like to make.
the one in Tallahassee is going into a defunct outdoor store that was built at Falls Chase, not to mention there is no interstate exposure for that one. I am sure Leon County is giving out some pretty hefty incentives.
Quote from: fsujax on December 27, 2012, 02:29:13 PM
the one in Tallahassee is going into a defunct outdoor store that was built at Falls Chase, not to mention there is no interstate exposure for that one. I am sure Leon County is giving out some pretty hefty incentives.
bass was waiting on the planned DeVoe Moore shopping center @ I-10 & US 90....but decided that wasn't happening anytime soon...and instead are going about 3 miles in on the newly widened US 90
The new Bass Pro would be in the middle of the circle formed by the 9B extension, a re-routed Race Track Road, and I-95. You can see the lake just north of the I-95 southbound rest area. I wonder if road construction to access the site is a part of the incentive package?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/SR9B.jpg)
Good to hear.
I'm trying to picture this location. I thought 9B was Duval?
as has been posted in another thread, the location appears to be off Race Track Road west of I-95....near where the 9B extension would come through...I wonder who will be paying for the road construction.
I know who won't.....Bass Pro.
Thanks for clarifying. Didn't see the other thread.
Most of the Planned Unite Developments or PUD'S in St. Johns come with healthy CDD fees. So yes it's suburban but unlike other places you pay the piper to build down here. Some single family homes in Nocatee or WGV are paying $3K a year in 'Community Development District' taxes. Guess if your going to have sprawl, this is the right way to do it. PAY IT FORWARD. So Bass Pro might not pay, but we will, which is fine with me if we can keep it desirable and friendly.
And as was posted in the other thread, there appear to be major incentives for Bass Pro, negating whatever the county would have gotten out of the deal.
Can a Moderator, or someone, smoosh the two Bass Pro threads together?
The two Bass Pro topics have been merged.
Btw, Ock, your CDD fees aren't covering the cost of major road construction and maintenance, in the form of a SR 9B extension to Race Track Road.
Question for those of you that have more expertise in this sort of thing - beyond just the basic 9B infrastructure question, what sort of impact does a Bass Pro coming in have on real estate in the nearby areas (Bartram Park, Bartram Springs, Durbin, and even JCP to some degree)? With as big of a deal as these stores seem to be, this can't be the only chip to drop for the area, right? My expectation is that this will anchor another set of shopping developments along that end of Racetrack. As such, I'd see two possible scenarios playing out:
1) The buildout (infrastructure and shopping areas) make that area an absolute pain to live in, depressing property values a bit, making attempting to sell in this market even more difficult.
2) Finally getting some of the originally planned commercial development on that section of Racetrack brings some money back into the area, improving the desirability of living in that area.
Abstractly, I can make an argument going both ways, but I'm curious as to what the experts thing the larger effect of Bass Pro on the area will be.
well there are already plans for retail along Race Track at I-95....I think the key question will be how quickly 9B is extended into the area and Race Track is 4 laned....without those improvements, this area will be a traffic mess and that will hurt residential desirability.
Imo, the extension of 9B, which could include an interchange with I-95 and connections with Race Track Road & Nocatee Parkway will have a high impact on commercial development regardless of whether Bass Pro comes or not. To me, the allure of landing a Bass Pro, maybe the push St. Johns needs to put itself into a little extra debt to move forward with funding infrastructure improvements, such as the widening of Race Track Road and the SR 9B extension. If St. Johns were smart, they'd capitalize on it by packing as much mixed use density in that node (the dry area surrounded by Race Track Road, I-95 and Julington Creek) as possible.
At buildout, auto oriented traffic will be a mess but if it's designed to be multimodal friendly, it could be a small center of activity where those living in the vicinity don't need to drive to access the various uses in the immediate area. With that in mind, the mix of uses and layout could go a long way to increasing or hurting residential desirability.
To back tufsu1 up, here is a map showing Bartram Park's master plan for the Race Track Road corridor on the Duval County side. The star is the proposed Bass Pro location:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-sBJFXGv/0/M/Bartram%20Commons-1-M.jpg)
Here is a close up of the yet to be built Bartram Park Commons shopping center site:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-jxmNw5m/0/M/Bartram%20Commons-M.jpg)
that's two lane with nothing around it right now
Who gets to pay to widen Racetrack Road to 4 lanes over I-95?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 30, 2012, 09:22:18 AM
Btw, Ock, your CDD fees aren't covering the cost of major road construction and maintenance, in the form of a SR 9B extension to Race Track Road.
Yes, I know, each Development District has an elected board and oversee's projects within the district. I believe someone asked if all of the tax payers in St. Johns are going to take a hit for this? Chances are, yes, at least somewhat, it depends on their being a CDD around that location.
Also just learned that some big bucks are coming from Flagler to plop in some new roadways including SR-313 running from US 1 north of the St. Augustine Airport to the south end of St. Augustine as a 'Beltway.' This will be a regular 4 lane divided highway with 6 lanes in the built up portions from the Outlets to 207. I'm not sure where it links back to US-1 south but my guess is a tie-in to Wildwood Drive. The road would do the same things for St. Augustine's outlaying development that Nova Road and Clyde Morris Road did in Daytona Beach. Though the road wasn't scheduled for several years, Flagler is going to build the northern half out of pocket, it will be a carbon copy of San Sebastian Way. They will not pay for a flyover of the railroad and US-1 just the standard well guarded crossing.
These are not boom times in St. Johns, but apparently the county never got the word, I've got 70 homes under construction all around me (from 6 FREAKING AM until O-Dark-30). The other end of WGV has several new neighborhoods going up as well. Rivertown is busting at the seams with an explosive growth surge that includes the new river front park, and a grand new entry, another lake, bike trails, and large amenity center. At full build-out, Nocatee is expected to have 13,000 homes; and up to one million square feet of retail, four million square feet of office and nine public schools. Almost two-thirds of the land will be placed in preservation and protected. In 2011, Nocatee was the 14th fastest growing master planned community in the United States.
Split Pine CDD, which oversees the 2,000-acre Duval County portion of Nocatee. The Tolomato CDD services 13,000 acres to be built in St. Johns County. These are/will be new CDD districts.
These are the closest CDD'S I could find a map of, it appears in the County Records that that area might be a future CDD.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/ScreenShot2012-12-30at101123PM_zps3aecfc54-1_zpsa9081ca8.jpg)
can't say I heard anything about Flagler paying for SR 313....that's plain old FDOT and TPO money funding the first phase....but yes, I guess they could fund part as mitigation for planned development.
and Rivertown busting at the seams...that's laughable!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 30, 2012, 10:33:08 PM
can't say I heard anything about Flagler paying for SR 313....that's plain old FDOT and TPO money
and Rivertown busting at the seams...that's laughable!
QuoteThe road is supposed to extend State Road 312 from its current ending point at S.R. 207 north to S.R. 16. That section, dubbed "Phase I," would be a six-lane highway. Plans call for the second half of the beltway, State Road 313, to then continue north from S.R. 16 and curve back to U.S. Highway 1 just north of St. Augustine Airport. That section, "Phase II," would be a four-lane road.
The 9.2-mile bypass, meant to relieve congestion on U.S. 1, was earmarked to be funded by the Florida Department of Transportation in 1987, according to a 2004 story in The St. Augustine Record. The funding never came through. In 1995, the county had a study conducted to find out what it would take to build the extension. It was named a priority in infrastructure needs.
But by 2004, the project still had not moved ahead, and the county paid $2 million for an "update" study.
Now trumped by needs in the crowded northwest part of the county, the project is rarely mentioned in county meetings. But a developer hoping to build Cordova Palms, a mixed use development of regional impact, brought it up in a recent Planning and Zoning Agency meeting.
Flagler Development Group is offering to cover the more than $40 million price tag to build most of Phase II.
The DOT has plans to build Phase I in the near future, but Phase II wasn't expected to be funded or built for at least another 25 to 30 years, Doug Miller of England-Thims & Miller, Inc., told the agency.
If the Cordova Palms project is approved, Flagler would cover the cost to build S.R. 313 to offset the DRI's impact on the area.
St Augustine Record
Laugh if you want to TU, sometimes I wonder if you think I make this shit up? I agree that Rivertown has sat like a dead project for the past 4-5 years. Suddenly this year they've started clearing huge swaths of land, built parks, added lakes, they've got at least 3 NEW home communities going up including that new entry road which involves SR-13 in some interesting construction. In fact we were up there looking at their new cottage community just the other day. By all means TU, jump in the car and come down for a look, while your down here stop in for a cold one!
I've already approached both MJ and Rivertown about a new article, since things are really moving there right now.
Go ahead and get some images. We'll run your photo tour when you're ready.
oh I know they are finally moving on infrastructure....but really, how many homes were sold there in 2012?
and as to the quote from Doug Miller on SR 313, they are just false....ROW is currently being acquired on the portion from SR 16 to SR 207 and FDOT has included construction in its draft Work Program....plus the 2035 TPO LRTP assumed the first phase (SR 16 to SR 207) would be built by 2020....with the second phase (up to US 1) built by 2025.
^Yes, please post some photos of these new homes in the "busting at the seams" Rivertown. By the way, did they ever mitigate that runoff problem?
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 31, 2012, 08:15:49 AM
oh I know they are finally moving on infrastructure....but really, how many homes were sold there in 2012?
and as to the quote from Doug Miller on SR 313, they are just false....ROW is currently being acquired on the portion from SR 16 to SR 207 and FDOT has included construction in its draft Work Program....plus the 2035 TPO LRTP assumed the first phase (SR 16 to SR 207) would be built by 2020....with the second phase (up to US 1) built by 2025.
My best guess is that Flagler/FECI/All Aboard Florida movement is responsible for many of these tracts coming back to life. I don't know how much of the highway Flagler agreed to, but it would seem the portion through their property is pretty certain.
Quote from: cline on December 31, 2012, 10:05:27 AM
^Yes, please post some photos of these new homes in the "busting at the seams" Rivertown. By the way, did they ever mitigate that runoff problem?
Absolutely! I'll see what I can come up with over the next couple of days. For those who haven't seen Rivertown in a year, you might want to drive by and take a look. They've gone from that one entry street with a few homes off to the right, to a construction site of not less then 2, probably more like 3, neighborhoods, lakes, amenity centers, bike trails, riverfront park etc.. This long dead project has simply exploded to life.
I'll get some photos to post within the next few days.
Anybody know if they are going to link with with the business district on SR210? Certainly the closest shopping area but no real access from Rivertown.
St Joe is definately building out infrastucture at Rivertown, but they still haven't sold many homes in the community (only a few sites have been purchased this fiscal year). They did recently pay down some of the bond debt they floated for the road/sewer improvements, however sales are still pretty slow and they have reconfigured their floor plans and pricing to accomodate the shift in market demand.
The master plan for the community calls for the main commercial component to be along the road that leads to the high school, and I doubt that land use configuration changes at all even at full buildout.
Cabela's has announced a 100.000 SF store for Greenville SC to open next year. There has been no mention of incentives thus far. The nearest store is in Louisiana but one is under construction in Bristol VA.
Don't look for any adjoining SJTC-esque commercial developments during the time frame of the 2014 Bass Pro Shops out there in St Johns County.
www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=538602
I find the discussion at the bottom of the article about the 9B extension quite interesting....it seems to imply that Bass will only open if/when the interchange is built
If one wants any idea of what kind of incentives Bass Pro will ask for, look for what Bass Pro is asking from Tampa (around 15million).. And that site has road access!
Read: http://public-accountability.org/2010/06/fishing-for-taxpayer-cash/ (http://public-accountability.org/2010/06/fishing-for-taxpayer-cash/)
and Tampa is strongly considering saying thanks but no thanks
For some reason I can't imagine St. Johns County not giving these guys whatever they want and more. I guess we'll see.
^ They most certainly will.......
What gets me is that county/city governments will gladly fork over millions to "create jobs" but makes it practically impossible for someone to start up a legit business these days.
What's the latest on this?
The draft DOT budget for St. Johns County does not currently include any money for construction:
http://d2wpph.com/PDF/2013/StJohns%2011-27-13.pdf
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 05, 2013, 08:14:20 PM
The draft DOT budget for St. Johns County does not currently include any money for construction:
http://d2wpph.com/PDF/2013/StJohns%2011-27-13.pdf
no bass pro then.
^ they could always pay for it themselves
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 06, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
^ they could always pay for it themselves
not when someone will eventually pay for it.
^Yeah, that's not how that company operates. Good on St. Johns if they stick with it, subsidizing retail is almost always a loser.
I finally went to a Bass Pro Shops (Orlando) on Saturday after a day trip to nearby Fun Spot America. Alot of tourist traffic in there. IMO the scenery is great (aquarium, waterfall, fun 50 cent shooting gallery, theming etc) The apparel section, not so much. I went in BPS with intentions of buying something, but couldn't find anything. It's all good to have a woodsy rustic cabin on the floor, but do yall have a decent North Face selection? It seems like most of the apparel was house brand stuff ALOT of RedHead (house brand). Alot of Columbia, and some Under Armour. IMO with non house brand apparel selection-wise & shoes, Gander Mtn KILLS Bass Pro Shops (esp for the smaller size that Gander Mtn is). BPS is GREAT when it comes to sporting equipment; Speedboats, canoes, fishing rods, hunting gear etc.
Adjoining BPS is the 'bustling' Festival Bay Mall. Boy, this mall makes current Regency Square Mall look decent. Festival Bay is pretty new too (2002 I believe) and it's very sad to walk around in there, I'm talking D-E-A-D and E-M-P-T-Y. It was no more than five people in there including me; I saw a mother with her two boys, and that's it. BPS is it's only saving grace. Ironically, the only restaurant the place has is Fuddruckers (the Landing would be saving grace, I guess) way on the ass-end of the mall. The place also has a movie theater, Ron Jon surf, and one other store. The Fuddruckers atrium area is HUGE, and it has a large fountain-esque pool; My first thought was that could be an indoor theme park. I heard that it was supposed to be a 'surf park' but failed. Nearby Mall of Milennia definitely owns that area when it comes to shopping; I have no area why they built it so close to Mall of Milennia. Sorry for going way offcourse.
Festival Bay opened in 2002 and it's been empty the entire time. However, it's being redeveloped into an artisan marketplace:
QuoteThe opening of a new artisan market replacing the Festival Bay mall has been delayed about six months, but construction is underway, and developers say that it will eventually include a skate park.
When completed, the $70 million Artegon Orlando is expected to include an indoor farmers' market and a collection of stores, stands and kiosks in which artisans will sell their work.
Full article: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-12-05/business/os-festival-bay-mall-artegon-20131205_1_paragon-outlet-partners-festival-bay-skate-park
Also, the third phase of SR 9B has been modified and now includes an extra interchange south of Race Track Road. I assume this would serve the proposed BPS site.
(http://www.sr9b.com/PublishingImages/SR%209B-Map%20for%20homepage-Smaller.jpg)
^^^Thanks for the info Lake. There sure was alot of construction on Intl' Drive.
That extra interchange used to just be a turn off to get folks to Racetrack Road....what a joke!
Quote from: I-10east on February 20, 2014, 09:30:21 PM
I finally went to a Bass Pro Shops (Orlando) on Saturday after a day trip to nearby Fun Spot America. Alot of tourist traffic in there. IMO the scenery is great (aquarium, waterfall, fun 50 cent shooting gallery, theming etc) The apparel section, not so much. I went in BPS with intentions of buying something, but couldn't find anything. ......................Adjoining BPS is the 'bustling' Festival Bay Mall. Boy, this mall makes current Regency Square Mall look decent. .................
That mall died when they put another mall across the road and another up the road a little.
Apparel? ......you were there for the wrong reason.
Quote from: Overstreet on February 21, 2014, 10:20:06 AM
Apparel? ......you were there for the wrong reason.
Who would have known that outdoor apparel selection isn't a big part of a large outdoorsman stores criteria...
QuoteBass Pro Shops in 'early design'
A spokeswoman for Bass Pro Shops said the company continues "to be very excited" about its chosen site in St. Johns County, but did not elaborate about the plans or a timeline.
A St. Johns County Commission approval last week could spark the project, but the company hasn't committed to a timetable even though it said in 2012 it could be open by now.
"The store is still in the early design stages, and as such, no new information is available at this time," said spokeswoman Katie Mitchell, communications manager for Springfield, Mo.-based Bass Pro Shops Group.
Bass Pro Shops, which develops Outdoor World centers of merchandise and activities, announced Dec. 21, 2012, that it would open a 104,000-square-foot Outdoor World store in St. Johns County along Interstate 95 at the new Florida 9B interchange.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=544883
Gate unveils 1,600-acre Durbin Park development, including Bass Pro Shops
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547842
QuotePlans also show a Gate convenience store.
Hopefully one just an urban-oriented as the one going in Brooklyn.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
Gate unveils 1,600-acre Durbin Park development, including Bass Pro Shops
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547842
There just isnt enough density to support 3 major retail centers, all of them in overlapping markets and thanks to 295 and 795, each 10 minutes from the other. They are all chasing the same dollars.
Someone has to lose. Regional planning, whats that?
^Ultimately, some older areas of Jax's Southside and Nocatee's commercial prospects probably lose the most. This particular area will boom more than it is already, when SR 9B is completed. New centers will serve people currently spending their dollars in Duval. Then compared to Nocatee, Durbin Creek wins hands down for regional accessibility. So new retailers will be more attracted to a site with direct access to two interstates, that's still within a stone's throw of Nocatee's residential development.
Is St. Johns County subsidizing the Bass Pro somehow?
I thought they only went where they would get $ from the local city or county...
^Not sure what SJC is throwing in but indirectly, they're getting an interstate extended through the property with their own interchange...all paid with public money.....
Bass Pro Shops doesn't open up anywhere that doesn't subsidize them. That's why they're in St. Johns instead of Jacksonville, which is what they originally proposed. The city wouldn't cough up money for a big box camping store, so they found a less savvy neighboring county that would.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 29, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
The city wouldn't cough up money for a big box camping store
But a big bucks billionaire, that's a different story. ;D
Quote from: finehoe on June 29, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 29, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
The city wouldn't cough up money for a big box camping store
But a big bucks billionaire, that's a different story. ;D
^+1000
Bass Pro Shops is going to Gainesville without incentives from what I understand.
What is the rationale for extending SR 9B? Gate wanted it through their property?
Evidently, the plan is to develop twice as much new retail square footage as what's in and around SJTC. If they're successful, this area probably becomes the suburban retail district that eventually replaces SJTC as the dominant retail cluster in the region.
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/10068109/screen-shot-2016-06-29-at-20145-pm*750xx1723-969-0-35.png)
Ugh, what's the point to this sprawl and abandon cycle we're in here. Jacksonville isn't big enough to support Regency AND sjtc, and now this?
Fare thee well property values....
Quote from: coredumped on June 29, 2016, 05:57:29 PM
Ugh, what's the point to this sprawl and abandon cycle we're in here. Jacksonville isn't big enough to support Regency AND sjtc, and now this?
Fare thee well property values....
I think Regency was doomed long before SJTC. Long before that The Avenues pulled much of the spending away from RS.
Who said this will be successful? Everyone said Nocatee would bring down town center and it hasn't done anything of the kind
^Give it time. If Durbin Park is successful, it's large enough to easily rival Deerwood Park. As the SJTC and the Southside ages and Northern St. Johns develops out, we'll find out what the ultimate impact will be.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
Evidently, the plan is to develop twice as much new retail square footage as what's in and around SJTC. If they're successful, this area probably becomes the suburban retail district that eventually replaces SJTC as the dominant retail cluster in the region.
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/10068109/screen-shot-2016-06-29-at-20145-pm*750xx1723-969-0-35.png)
The road that has its exit at 795 (Peyton Parkway) will eventually push east through Phase 3 and 4 and link up with Nocatee Parkway. It was originally going to be called Durbin Parkway.
I havent seen any exits planned for Peyton Parkway and I-95 in any plans that have been published, but the Nocatee people would love it I bet.
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 29, 2016, 02:35:00 PM
Bass Pro Shops is going to Gainesville without incentives from what I understand.
What is the rationale for extending SR 9B? Gate wanted it through their property?
There was clear hint to this years ago with the Water management District's Twelve Mile Swamp Conservation Lands purchase.....and transfer of development rights to lands northerly of the Conservation project.
It's going to take a whole lot more than Walmart, Sams Club and Bass Pro to have any real impact on SJTC. A WHOLE LOT more...
Phase II is anticipated to be a bigger lifestyle center than SJTC. Any type of significant retail development in Northern St. Johns should draw a good portion of the market demographic SJTC and the Avenues benefit from.
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 29, 2016, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: coredumped on June 29, 2016, 05:57:29 PM
Ugh, what's the point to this sprawl and abandon cycle we're in here. Jacksonville isn't big enough to support Regency AND sjtc, and now this?
Fare thee well property values....
I think Regency was doomed long before SJTC. Long before that The Avenues pulled much of the spending away from RS.
Which mall killed the other mall isn't the point. How many times are we going to build something, use it for a few years, then abandon it for a newer, shinier model up the street?
All in the name of PROGRESS!! More development, more traffic, repeat. Less water, less conservation...
Quote from: finehoe on June 30, 2016, 07:24:31 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on June 29, 2016, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: coredumped on June 29, 2016, 05:57:29 PM
Ugh, what's the point to this sprawl and abandon cycle we're in here. Jacksonville isn't big enough to support Regency AND sjtc, and now this?
Fare thee well property values....
I think Regency was doomed long before SJTC. Long before that The Avenues pulled much of the spending away from RS.
Which mall killed the other mall isn't the point. How many times are we going to build something, use it for a few years, then abandon it for a newer, shinier model up the street?
As long as someone makes money?
Quote from: fsquid on June 30, 2016, 09:28:01 AM
As long as someone makes money?
You're right. Unfortunately, externalities rarely figure into the equation.
If "Phase 2" gets off the ground, it would probably pull a lot of the St. Johns customer base of the Town Center and Avenues. But it won't compete well for Southside residents, let alone others in Duval, without something seriously changing for those malls and their neighborhoods. It's just too far away and the traffic will only get worse between now and whenever it opens.
The location at this interchange will presumably help it (thanks, Florida sprawl) but it sounds like it will have other disadvantages as well. For one thing, the Town Center was centrally located to very many people in the metro area, and in a greenfields area that was only just starting to grow (and which has continued to boom). The part of St. Johns County this is going in has been growing since almost exactly the same time. It won't have the feel of a "new" area to nearly the extent that the Town Center had, or the Avenues in its day.
St. Johns has the additional disadvantage that proportionately few people work within the county, beyond service sector jobs serving the bedroom suburbs. Tens of thousands of people probably work within 5 miles or so of St. Johns Town Center, which is also true of the Avenues and some now-declining malls. I go to the SJTC more than I wish because it's convenient to my work. I won't go to St. Johns County to shop just as I don't go to other areas that aren't near anything else of use or interest to me. And this part of St. Johns County is particularly poorly positioned for that to change.
All that said, SJTC will probably age poorly, even compared to other local malls like Regency and the Avenues. Its design and layout are simply terrible and will be hard to keep updated. At some point it will be indistinguishable from any other aging group of beige strip malls elsewhere in the metro. While Regency is the current epitome of a dead mall in people's minds, the reality is that it thrived for 30 years, and has hung on for another 20. The Avenues is at 26 years and so far hasn't shown signs of slowing down. I don't really see the SJTC pulling that off. Though I also don't see this proposal being much different or better.
Quote from: coredumped on June 29, 2016, 05:57:29 PM
Ugh, what's the point to this sprawl and abandon cycle we're in here. Jacksonville isn't big enough to support Regency AND sjtc, and now this?
Fare thee well property values....
It's not sprawl and abandon, it's growth. How much time have you spent in and around this part of St. Johns County? It's exploding with new residential development, which will support Gate's project. The Town Center will continue to draw customers from as far as Arlington, Fort Caroline, the beaches, San Marco and Mandarin, as well as the immediate surrounding area.
There's no reason they can't coexist.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 30, 2016, 10:18:16 AM
If "Phase 2" gets off the ground, it would probably pull a lot of the St. Johns customer base of the Town Center and Avenues. But it won't compete well for Southside residents, let alone others in Duval, without something seriously changing for those malls and their neighborhoods. It's just too far away and the traffic will only get worse between now and whenever it opens.
The location at this interchange will presumably help it (thanks, Florida sprawl) but it sounds like it will have other disadvantages as well. For one thing, the Town Center was centrally located to very many people in the metro area, and in a greenfields area that was only just starting to grow (and which has continued to boom). The part of St. Johns County this is going in has been growing since almost exactly the same time. It won't have the feel of a "new" area to nearly the extent that the Town Center had, or the Avenues in its day.
St. Johns has the additional disadvantage that proportionately few people work within the county, beyond service sector jobs serving the bedroom suburbs. Tens of thousands of people probably work within 5 miles or so of St. Johns Town Center, which is also true of the Avenues and some now-declining malls. I go to the SJTC more than I wish because it's convenient to my work. I won't go to St. Johns County to shop just as I don't go to other areas that aren't near anything else of use or interest to me. And this part of St. Johns County is particularly poorly positioned for that to change.
I'm not sure some of these disadvantages are actually disadvantages. Durbin Plan will cover 1,600 acres at build-out. It will have that new feel because the entire thing is currently undeveloped land on both sides of I-95. The shopping center is just a small portion of it. There's also space for 2.8 million square feet of office use. If fully built out, there's no reason it can't become the next Southpoint or Deerwood Park with a newer (better laid out?) and larger rival to SJTC. In addition the site is positioned to attract consumers from Clay, St. Johns and Flagler (the region's fastest growing areas), as well as still being easily accessible to Jax's newer Southside areas (Jax's fastest growing area).
Here's what I had to say about this project this morning, along with a few renderings of Durbin Park:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jun-durbin-park-jaxs-next-st-johns-town-center
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2016, 11:11:17 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 30, 2016, 10:18:16 AM
If "Phase 2" gets off the ground, it would probably pull a lot of the St. Johns customer base of the Town Center and Avenues. But it won't compete well for Southside residents, let alone others in Duval, without something seriously changing for those malls and their neighborhoods. It's just too far away and the traffic will only get worse between now and whenever it opens.
The location at this interchange will presumably help it (thanks, Florida sprawl) but it sounds like it will have other disadvantages as well. For one thing, the Town Center was centrally located to very many people in the metro area, and in a greenfields area that was only just starting to grow (and which has continued to boom). The part of St. Johns County this is going in has been growing since almost exactly the same time. It won't have the feel of a "new" area to nearly the extent that the Town Center had, or the Avenues in its day.
St. Johns has the additional disadvantage that proportionately few people work within the county, beyond service sector jobs serving the bedroom suburbs. Tens of thousands of people probably work within 5 miles or so of St. Johns Town Center, which is also true of the Avenues and some now-declining malls. I go to the SJTC more than I wish because it's convenient to my work. I won't go to St. Johns County to shop just as I don't go to other areas that aren't near anything else of use or interest to me. And this part of St. Johns County is particularly poorly positioned for that to change.
I'm not sure some of these disadvantages are actually disadvantages. Durbin Plan will cover 1,600 acres at build-out. It will have that new feel because the entire thing is currently undeveloped land on both sides of I-95. The shopping center is just a small portion of it. There's also space for 2.8 million square feet of office use. If fully built out, there's no reason it can't become the next Southpoint or Deerwood Park with a newer (better laid out?) and larger rival to SJTC. In addition the site is positioned to attract consumers from Clay, St. Johns and Flagler (the region's fastest growing areas), as well as still being easily accessible to Jax's newer Southside areas (Jax's fastest growing area).
Here's what I had to say about this project this morning, along with a few renderings of Durbin Park:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2016-jun-durbin-park-jaxs-next-st-johns-town-center
The development itself will be new. That part of St. Johns County is growing apace with the part of Southside where the Town Center is. Especially by the time it's completed, it won't be the new commodity in the way the Town Center/Gate Parkway area was when the mall was built there. SJTC anticipated the trend, this one's just kind of going along with what's been happening for 20 years. I'm sure it will easier to attract people from St. Johns, maybe Clay and Flagler, and will hurt Southside retailers. It would be interesting to compare the population and employer density of the two areas.
As for the office space, I guess we'll see. Nocatee hasn't been successful in that regard beyond snagging a few relocations that were already in the metro area. Color me skeptical. Perhaps it will eventually be easier as so much of the region's middle and upper-middle class settles in (and for) St. Johns County. But currently, I don't think St. Johns even knows what to do to successfully incentive that kind of development. Even this development seems to have been partly driven by JAXUSA, which is a wing of the Jax Chamber of Commerce and obviously Duval based. As a former resident, my feeling is that St. Johns will remain a bedroom suburb for the foreseeable future.
I wouldn't count on any development in St. Johns County, Florida being having a good layout. But the bad layout hasn't hurt SJTC, yet.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2016, 01:09:10 PM
^Not sure what SJC is throwing in but indirectly, they're getting an interstate extended through the property with their own interchange...all paid with public money.....
Yet some here insist that projects like 9B and the FCE (Outer Beltway) aren't driven by large landowners and their connections within our State and Local Govts.
^This one appears to go one step further. The "feeder" road to connect the new interchange with Race Track Road is Peyton Parkway. This one is getting an interstate highway, interchange and an interior circulation road. Perhaps the Davis family didn't push hard enough on SR 9B's phase one. They have to pay for their roadway.....nevermind, the mobility fee was modified to help with that cost.
Could the thread title be updated to reflect the new date?
I'll bite.
The alignment was set based on three large property owners. If you're familiar with the ROW acquisition or eminent domain process, you'd appreciate why the corridor is set to be in their properties.
FCE isn't being financed or driven by these three landowners. They were heavily involved with the corridor studies for obvious reasons. They had a financial incentive to develop their properties with the highest and best value which is dependant upon FCE. FDOT has a financial incentive to purchase ROW for the cheapest price possible. Therefore, it's no surprise that the corridor is where it is. In fact, many Clay County residents are quite happy that the corridor isnt mowing down their houses, and instead is on undeveloped, vacant, and old dairy farms.
Don't be so paranoid. The big, bad, rich property owners arent nearly in bed with our local and state officials as so many are quick to point fingers at.
There's always the "no build" alternative. That's the cheapest option ;) Seriously, would the world end if FCE was never built? We've survived just well without extending the Hart Bridge ramps as an elevated expressway along the entire Northbank riverfront.
"We" as in who? The Urban Core? What about Clay County? The largest county Florida without an Interstate system. The very definition of a "bedroom" community where 60% of its work force heads to Duval and St. Johns.
Not to steal another thread for FCE, but has this group ever thought about anyone other than the Urban Core?
Kudos to St. Johns County for embracing growth and development, and the transportation infrastructure necessary to support it.
Nobody has died from Clay County not having an interstate. After FCE is constructed, it still won't have one.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 01, 2016, 09:48:39 PM
"We" as in who? The Urban Core? What about Clay County? The largest county Florida without an Interstate system. The very definition of a "bedroom" community where 60% of its work force heads to Duval and St. Johns.
Not to steal another thread for FCE, but has this group ever thought about anyone other than the Urban Core?
Kudos to St. Johns County for embracing growth and development, and the transportation infrastructure necessary to support it.
"We" as in the residents of Clay County that have paid attention to the meetings over the past 30 yrs, who knows the landowners, County commissioners, and their relationships, and most of all the actual needs of Clay County residents. There are PLENTY of Clay County residents who think a No Build is better option than the FCE as it's planned.
Your comments suggest that this is a project where your bread is buttered, you are one of the landowners who benefits from the FCE, or you're just a naive do as your superiors tell you in the FDOT.
A more northern river crossing was what most Clay County residents have wanted for over 25 yrs which is now impossible.
The FCE does very little to address the bedroom community commuters needs, all it does is open up land for developers. If the DRIs such as Saratoga Springs were going to be so successful why do they need to wait for the FDOT to build them a road?
Sorry Lake, I meant Expressway, not Interstate. The point is that it's the largest county in population without a high speed, limited acess expressway system.
Green Cove Springs and South Clay County residents are generally happy with the alignment. The ones against the alignment are typically those directly impacted, understandably. But obviously, you would have that with any alignment. Even more of a reason to lessen impacts to the number of properties by putting the alignment on the largest tracts.
FCE will help support large commercial and industrial development that is lacking due to transportation infrastructure. I suggest you get involved with the Clay Chamber, there's a lot of economic development support from community business leaders. Theres a real opportunity to increase the standard of living for ALL Clay County residents, and it starts with FCE.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 03, 2016, 06:46:05 AM
The point is that it's the largest county in population without a high speed, limited acess expressway system.
what the heck does total population have to do with anything? Population density and location of activity centers matters far more. And guess what, I-295 is less than 1/2 mile from the county line.
Often I hear that traffic congestion will choke an area's economic vitality. So how are the economies of metro areas like DC, Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston doing?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
Evidently, the plan is to develop twice as much new retail square footage as what's in and around SJTC. If they're successful, this area probably becomes the suburban retail district that eventually replaces SJTC as the dominant retail cluster in the region.
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/10068109/screen-shot-2016-06-29-at-20145-pm*750xx1723-969-0-35.png)
SJTC will be fine. The Avenues is what I would be far more worried about. Likewise, the population center will not shift to much more south. There will be a lot of additional people in North St. Johns and eventually Southside which will hopefully allow both areas to thrive. Also, they have big and grand plans but often the plans for mixed use just end up being a bedroom community with a shopping center.
I think you also have to be worried about business leaving Jacksonville and heading there in the near future with a business park and incentives from SJC.
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 04, 2016, 10:27:58 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 03, 2016, 06:46:05 AM
The point is that it's the largest county in population without a high speed, limited acess expressway system.
what the heck does total population have to do with anything? Population density and location of activity centers matters far more. And guess what, I-295 is less than 1/2 mile from the county line.
Often I hear that traffic congestion will choke an area's economic vitality. So how are the economies of metro areas like DC, Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston doing?
Hmmm, what does total population have to do with the need for high speed movement of goods and people? Come on man, really?
All of these metros are served by high speed expressways. So yeah, they have that in common. The reason why you hear that traffic congestion chokes the economy is because it's been well-studied and proven about the negative impacts caused. What, you think everyone is just making it up?
Honestly, there really hasn't been much development in the conversations on FCE on MJ. Meanwhile, the discussions occurring in business conference rooms, kitchen tables, and government offices are much more in-depth and insightful. I merely come here to offer the opinions and views of the development world outside of the MJ area, and quite frankly, the responses to my posts are sad.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
You're giving St. Johns County way too much credit. The county had far less to do with this project than state entities (FDOT building 9B), regional entities (JAXUSA), and property owners (who encouraged the state to spend millions on roads through their area, and are now positioned to build whatever this ends up being).
So far, all St. Johns County has been good at is residential development for commuters who work in Jacksonville, and services allied to that. It does have good schools. It has the same low crime as any demographically similar (affluent, suburban, largely white) area of the metro area or state. It certainly doesn't have affordable housing. Perhaps this will add "great shopping", but currently the county probably has less than other comparable bedroom suburbs; the county's bigger than Clay County but the only substantial retail centers are down in St. Augustine. And nothing I've seen suggests the county knows how to attract high-paying jobs, except possibly making plays to siphon off companies who are already in the metro area and want out of their leases. That's not really job growth so much as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
LOL. This is stupid. So the city that has been around for almost 200 years has more problems than some untouched dirt in St. John's County? Success stories? Have you been to Riverside/Avondale, Brooklyn or San Marco recently? The Beaches? St. John's is not going to replace those neighborhoods...just your neighborhood in the Southside as a desirable suburbia. The rest of your points don't make much sense so I won't address them. :)
Great, now I'm stupid. Sure there's been some investment in Brooklyn, but I wouldn't consider the level of investment and the tax bases created that significant by any means. It's sad that over the course of 200 years, COJ is what it is. It's been heavily covered here on MJ, I'm not writing anything new.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 05, 2016, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
You're giving St. Johns County way too much credit. The county had far less to do with this project than state entities (FDOT building 9B), regional entities (JAXUSA), and property owners (who encouraged the state to spend millions on roads through their area, and are now positioned to build whatever this ends up being).
So far, all St. Johns County has been good at is residential development for commuters who work in Jacksonville, and services allied to that. It does have good schools. It has the same low crime as any demographically similar (affluent, suburban, largely white) area of the metro area or state. It certainly doesn't have affordable housing. Perhaps this will add "great shopping", but currently the county probably has less than other comparable bedroom suburbs; the county's bigger than Clay County but the only substantial retail centers are down in St. Augustine. And nothing I've seen suggests the county knows how to attract high-paying jobs, except possibly making plays to siphon off companies who are already in the metro area and want out of their leases. That's not really job growth so much as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I give St John's all the credit. What they've been able to achieve in 20 years is pretty significant. Untouched dirt to having one of the most successful neighborhoods in the country. They have been competitive as compared with Flagler, Duval, and Clay with everything they're offering. They've indirectly forced FDOT to provide transportation connectivity to their community, and they've built up their county roads to continue the network. They've managed and directed their growth relatively well, regardless of what's said here on MJ about urban sprawl.
Affordable housing for the level of value provided. Nocatee and Durbin might sound expensive, but the value is pretty significant.
As I mentioned, the first step was bringing residents down to St. Johns for their residential tax base. Then develop the transportation infrastructure to allow people and goods to move around the area. Next comes the retail to develop the commercial tax base, and later, high paying commercial will come too, and if it comes from Duval, so be it. Siphoning is happening all around the state, the high paying jobs go to the successful and competitive counties that offer the best business environment. One could probably demonstrate that the first businesses to move to a county are typically right next door. As more businesses flock from Duval, the bigger fish will come.
So to summarize:
Nocatee, Jullington Creek, Durbin Creek, Bartram Park? Check.
Affluent, educated work force? Check.
SR 9B, I-95, CR 2209, CR 210, Nocatee Parkway? Check. Durbin Park, outlets, and future high end retail? Check.
Bonus: St. Augustine tourism. Check.
Upcoming:. High paying jobs.
This is what Clay County is trying achieve with FCE.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 06, 2016, 12:11:46 AM
LOL. This is stupid. So the city that has been around for almost 200 years has more problems than some untouched dirt in St. John's County? Success stories? Have you been to Riverside/Avondale, Brooklyn or San Marco recently? The Beaches? St. John's is not going to replace those neighborhoods...just your neighborhood in the Southside as a desirable suburbia. The rest of your points don't make much sense so I won't address them. :)
I have to agree with you here. It's good to analyze the growth of St John's County area, to learn a few things that can be applied to Jax, but sometimes the direct comparisons to Duval can be a little harsh. St John's County had a clean slate to start with, nothing but trees there a few years ago compared to what was in Jax. A blank canvas basically
The already revived areas of JAX like Riverside/Avondale, San Marco,etc. don't have much to worry about from St. Johns County. But the Southside is a totally different story. It could turn into the next Arlington, and the die is already cast for it to happen. The Avenues could turn into the next Regency Square in time. SJTC isn't immune either, albeit we are talking about a long term phenomenon for both.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 06, 2016, 06:43:57 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 05, 2016, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
You're giving St. Johns County way too much credit. The county had far less to do with this project than state entities (FDOT building 9B), regional entities (JAXUSA), and property owners (who encouraged the state to spend millions on roads through their area, and are now positioned to build whatever this ends up being).
So far, all St. Johns County has been good at is residential development for commuters who work in Jacksonville, and services allied to that. It does have good schools. It has the same low crime as any demographically similar (affluent, suburban, largely white) area of the metro area or state. It certainly doesn't have affordable housing. Perhaps this will add "great shopping", but currently the county probably has less than other comparable bedroom suburbs; the county's bigger than Clay County but the only substantial retail centers are down in St. Augustine. And nothing I've seen suggests the county knows how to attract high-paying jobs, except possibly making plays to siphon off companies who are already in the metro area and want out of their leases. That's not really job growth so much as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I give St John's all the credit. What they've been able to achieve in 20 years is pretty significant. Untouched dirt to having one of the most successful neighborhoods in the country. They have been competitive as compared with Flagler, Duval, and Clay with everything they're offering. They've indirectly forced FDOT to provide transportation connectivity to their community, and they've built up their county roads to continue the network. They've managed and directed their growth relatively well, regardless of what's said here on MJ about urban sprawl.
Affordable housing for the level of value provided. Nocatee and Durbin might sound expensive, but the value is pretty significant.
As I mentioned, the first step was bringing residents down to St. Johns for their residential tax base. Then develop the transportation infrastructure to allow people and goods to move around the area. Next comes the retail to develop the commercial tax base, and later, high paying commercial will come too, and if it comes from Duval, so be it. Siphoning is happening all around the state, the high paying jobs go to the successful and competitive counties that offer the best business environment. One could probably demonstrate that the first businesses to move to a county are typically right next door. As more businesses flock from Duval, the bigger fish will come.
So to summarize:
Nocatee, Jullington Creek, Durbin Creek, Bartram Park? Check.
Affluent, educated work force? Check.
SR 9B, I-95, CR 2209, CR 210, Nocatee Parkway? Check. Durbin Park, outlets, and future high end retail? Check.
Bonus: St. Augustine tourism. Check.
Upcoming:. High paying jobs.
This is what Clay County is trying achieve with FCE.
The only reason this works is because SJC is convenient to Duval County.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 06, 2016, 08:32:18 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 06, 2016, 06:43:57 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 05, 2016, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
^ all thanks to the awesome genius of Duval County lobbying for the construction of SR 9B
anyone see parallels with the First Coast Expressway? how about it southsider1015?
Not quite sure what you're trying to prove here. Maybe if Duval County got serious about growth and development, we'd see it happen. Meanwhile, St. Johns is staying competitive as THE county for top schools, low crime, affordable housing, and soon, great shopping, and later, high paying jobs.
Meanwhile, COJ is struggling financially with the pension issue and can't pinch two pennies together to maintain sidewalks. Sad, really. About the only financial success stories these days is the SJTC, and now with the investment in I-295 Express Lanes, that area should continue to grow.
You're giving St. Johns County way too much credit. The county had far less to do with this project than state entities (FDOT building 9B), regional entities (JAXUSA), and property owners (who encouraged the state to spend millions on roads through their area, and are now positioned to build whatever this ends up being).
So far, all St. Johns County has been good at is residential development for commuters who work in Jacksonville, and services allied to that. It does have good schools. It has the same low crime as any demographically similar (affluent, suburban, largely white) area of the metro area or state. It certainly doesn't have affordable housing. Perhaps this will add "great shopping", but currently the county probably has less than other comparable bedroom suburbs; the county's bigger than Clay County but the only substantial retail centers are down in St. Augustine. And nothing I've seen suggests the county knows how to attract high-paying jobs, except possibly making plays to siphon off companies who are already in the metro area and want out of their leases. That's not really job growth so much as robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I give St John's all the credit. What they've been able to achieve in 20 years is pretty significant. Untouched dirt to having one of the most successful neighborhoods in the country. They have been competitive as compared with Flagler, Duval, and Clay with everything they're offering. They've indirectly forced FDOT to provide transportation connectivity to their community, and they've built up their county roads to continue the network. They've managed and directed their growth relatively well, regardless of what's said here on MJ about urban sprawl.
Affordable housing for the level of value provided. Nocatee and Durbin might sound expensive, but the value is pretty significant.
As I mentioned, the first step was bringing residents down to St. Johns for their residential tax base. Then develop the transportation infrastructure to allow people and goods to move around the area. Next comes the retail to develop the commercial tax base, and later, high paying commercial will come too, and if it comes from Duval, so be it. Siphoning is happening all around the state, the high paying jobs go to the successful and competitive counties that offer the best business environment. One could probably demonstrate that the first businesses to move to a county are typically right next door. As more businesses flock from Duval, the bigger fish will come.
So to summarize:
Nocatee, Jullington Creek, Durbin Creek, Bartram Park? Check.
Affluent, educated work force? Check.
SR 9B, I-95, CR 2209, CR 210, Nocatee Parkway? Check. Durbin Park, outlets, and future high end retail? Check.
Bonus: St. Augustine tourism. Check.
Upcoming:. High paying jobs.
This is what Clay County is trying achieve with FCE.
The only reason this works is because SJC is convenient to Duval County.
Yeah, pretty much. That has much more to do with it than any particular moves by St. Johns County and its government. They've been good at inspiring yet more low-density residential development largely for people that work in Jacksonville. They've done well at services supporting their suburban neighborhoods, ie the service industry and things like the school system. Outside their wheelhouse, they haven't been so successful.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 01, 2016, 08:55:56 AM
There's always the "no build" alternative. That's the cheapest option ;) Seriously, would the world end if FCE was never built? We've survived just well without extending the Hart Bridge ramps as an elevated expressway along the entire Northbank riverfront.
???
The legally binding FCE "No Build" alternative quietly came and went years ago.......even before named FCE...hands on in person public input opportunity was St Johns County hearing...I recall something about 'colors'.....'letters'......pink,blue,red.....auditorium setting...the "No Build" table way back there in the back of the room.....I took pictures,comfortable with personal decision to no longer foment opposition-some projects are so bad they simply must be allowed to progress.......my upper level statewide conservation/growth management position would only,eventually prove efficacious in FCE alignment revisions,Water Management Twelve Mile Swamp negotiations and a host of other "mainstream" conservation lands projects on the table......Don't Rock The Boat!!...shucks,Mayor Delaney was the "Green" Guy at the time. I recall vividly the big blonde hair attorney for the Twelve Mile Swamp development rights transfer. Pappas.
Back then,during "No Build" window,the emphasis was on "River Crossing" and the Clay events inland/Brannon Chaffee/Sector Plans perfectly off the radar screen.....once First Coast beltway went to PD&E (along with a push from Mayor Delaney) we were on our way!
Not surprised Lake that even now you are so far out of the No Build Loop,most are.Would be wonderful to Stand Corrected and see "No Build" option implemented at this juncture.You would not doubt receive Award.