Rather than hijack the December construction update thread (which I essentially already have done), I thought I'd start a separate thread devoted to the Landing, and where we think it should go.
Holiday season is here and work is slow, so I'm just browsing the internet and posting. The Landing is very intriguing to me, and historically I have berated Toney and team over their decisions regarding the Landing. I am done doing that, but I do question the logic that goes into the business plan for the Landing (if there even is one).
I recently read the below two articles:
Jacksonville's Feeding Frenzy - The Rise of Independent Restaurants (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/10/12/jacksonvilles-feeding-frenzy.html)
Jacksonville Tower Troubles Potentially Resolved (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/12/14/tower-troubles.html)
QuoteThe Salty Fig, a Southern gastropub, is the anomaly among the restaurants opening this year. Owners and brothers Jeff and John Stanford started the concept in July as a food truck known by the same name. The restaurant is expected to open in brick-and-mortar space in Riverside at 901 King St. in November.
Jeff Stanford said he financed all of the $500,000 build-out cost through private equity. While financing might still be extremely difficult for new restaurants, Stanford said it’s also a good opportunity, as hard costs like rental rates are still at record lows.
I believe that the Landing holds the largest key to downtown's rebirth, and Toney knows it, which is probably why he's trying to hold the city hostage for incentives. Maybe the city is PO'd at Toney for doing so, maybe the city is just blind and dumb, but the city just approved millions of short and long term taxpayer based funding for a garage for the majority owners of the SunTrust tower, and this garage does not satisfy the agreement it entered into with Sleiman way back when.
The SunTrust tower leasing up/selling out of all its office condos is not the catalyst needed to bring downtown back. Everbank's relocation won't do so either (it merely takes an office building backed by CMBS out of special servicing).
A lot of downtown office users seem to be placing a value on "cool" and vibrant environments. If there is no difference between working downtown and the suburbs, except downtown the floorplans are less efficient, the parking isn't free, and the rents are higher...and your employees are still hopping in their cars for lunch and coffee and after work entertainment, then there is no point being downtown.
The Landing, to me, could facilitate a wave of "cool" to come DT. It could truly be a cool place, serving area workers, tourists, local/suburban shoppers looking for a different experience with lots of offerings under one roof, etc.
It's also centrally located and has a lot of space available for both retail/F&B and specialty office users.
Why the city is throwing so much money at a garage that wastes a prime piece of developable land and violates every zoning code for the area is beyond me. For $3MM, the city could actually help Sleiman turn the Landing completely around and set it on a path to righteousness that would do more to attract more office tenants downtown than another parking garage (which so far has failed to attract anybody as has been highly publicized here and in the papers).
Faneuil Hall, Ferry Building, Chelsea Market, Westside Provisions District and others literally reinvented entire areas. Not only are they now considered trophy assets in and of themselves, attracting the biggest names in private equity and public REITs, they have raised the desirability of their respective areas such that those area have greatly elevated retail and office rents compared to their respective markets.
My own company (private equity) has invested in retail/restaurant prospects, and we often find tenants who are backed by local money (a group of dentists is backing a restaurant we are close to signing in a Nashville development I work on). Financing is tricky, but the city needs to be smarter about how it throws around taxpayer money (we don't have money to keep lights on or mow the grass or keep libraries open, but we'll divert funds for a garage?), and Sleiman needs to suck it up and realize his dream development isn't going to happen automatically...he's going to have to do it himself.
Ideas:
Chelsea Market (http://chelseamarket.com/retail/)
One thing that makes Chelsea Market so great is that there are always pop-ups and events going on. One time Swamp People wanted to do a fundraiser/awareness event, and so they transformed a 15,000 SF space into a literal swamp filled with alligators. New Yorkers about died. Land Rover unveiled its Evoque at CM, where their commercial of people taking pictures of the car over the course of a day was filmed.
CM is a world-class money maker and draw. Many of NYC's best concepts are either born in CM or brought to CM, so they're all under one roof. The space is also really really cool. Office tenants pay Midtown Manhattan rents to be there, and they include Google, MLB, Food Network (where the shows are filmed), Oxygen Network and EMI Records. CM is now the standard by which all other popular urban markets are measured.
(http://dguides.com/images/newyorkcity/shopping/chelsea-market.jpg)
(http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-AT999_CHELSE_G_20110213171541.jpg)
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1155875.1347294074!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_635/chelsea-market.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QbO_DZdEwpk/ULuknTmu49I/AAAAAAAAQK0/JEOCO7M7Edk/s1600/NYC+120.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Aj9_I-gOPc/TS4wrZymp3I/AAAAAAAABi8/wdS-rpiaE68/s1600/4.+Chelsea+market.JPG)
Ferry Building (http://www.ferrybuildingmarketplace.com/merchant_list.php)
The Ferry Building is essentially a more open and airy Chelsea Market in a different type of building (ferry terminal) without a large office component. Again, the concept here is to combine all of SF's top known local brands under one roof within convenience to tourists, residents (aka me now) and office workers in FiDi.
(http://www.perkinswill.com/sites/default/files/project-imagery/FerryBuilding_oblique_main.jpg)
(http://theleatherdistrictgourmet.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/ferry-building-market.jpg)
(http://www.essenceinphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Ferry-Building-Lets-Eat-lo-res.jpg?ec9f9b)
Faneuil Hall Marketplace (http://www.faneuilhallmarketplace.com/restaurants/all)
Faneuil Hall is definitely more on the touristy side and has a lot more chain retailers/restaurants than the above two, but it's an example of an investment made by private capital for destination retail/market type vendors. It recently sold for $903psf to an old NY firm (Ashkenazy Acquisitions), but was developed by Rouse!
(http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2004/04/27/1083081953_3360.jpg)
(http://bosguydotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/faneuil-hall.jpg)
(http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/faneuil416.jpg)
Pike Place Market (http://pikeplacemarket.org/explore_the_market/market_map)
Pike Place is a public entity, but is not as pretty and fixed up or historically significant as the above examples. There are stores like Sur La Table in there, an actual marketplace, and tons of restaurants who prepare food from fresh items at the market. Definitely has more of a farmer's market feel to it, but 10 million visitors a year aren't lying that it's a cool center of activity.
Warehouse Row (http://www.warehouserow.net/About/About-History-About.aspx)
Chattanooga's best restauranteur has a bar and restaurant there. The best salons, galleries, design stores (Revival designed Eli Manning's multimillion dollar superbowl party put on by Peyton), a mercantile with more food vendors including a bricks and mortar location of a popular food truck, pilates, yoga studios, cosmetics, paperie, etc etc. Office space above includes private foundations, engineering firms, a law firm, the GSA (state attorney), and other prominent tenants.
The developer turned the old building from a discount barn into a high end destination marketplace that is on the verge of attracting a national credit retailer that has only recently entered Jacksonville with one store and has previously written off Chattanooga as too small.
Overall it's about 300,000 SF (much larger than Landing) and a $35-40MM project for the complete transformation and hefty TI packages for office tenants.
(http://www.kylemackillop.com/uploads/2/9/3/5/2935054/7731351_orig.jpg)
Orchid Shop
(http://ttp://www.warehouserow.net/cmspages/getfile.aspx?guid=beb81b2e-13fd-42b4-8850-9ac2202eb0dd&.aspx)
Typical hallway
(http://www.warehouserow.net/cmspages/getfile.aspx?guid=08b98fdd-c62a-4c76-a372-e004f59847fd&.aspx)
(http://www.warehouserow.net/cmspages/getfile.aspx?guid=62b94443-325b-40c5-b89c-fc13b5da27ac&.aspx)
(http://www.warehouserow.net/cmspages/getfile.aspx?guid=b3f33add-c8b7-4aec-8006-ee4a2792731d&.aspx)
Disclaimer...Sleiman's ground lease might be very inhibitive in that it doesn't allow for a lot of upside in residual or to "sub-lease" out to someone who will pay up for a nicely leased up and performing center, etc. This would make it stupid to throw money at capital improvements/TI allowances and just float by, but Sleiman's a smart enough guy and I would think he would have structured a deal with the city favorable to him.
Considering all of the entrepreneurial talent and experience in Avondale, Riverside, Springfield, the Beaches, San Marco and elsewhere...there is no reason a single experienced landlord should not be able to harness all of that potential for himself under his own roof, creating a centralized critical mass and allowing all of these guys to avoid dealing with small inexperienced or stodgy landlords, or the hastle of buying/constructing their own space. Heck, a landlord like Sleiman would only make finding financing for the retailer/restauranteur easier as the debt or equity, whichever it is, has to have faith in the landlord, too (and a larger landlord can also "invest" in the tenant with TI and rent relief, center capital improvements, etc)
Sleiman has a cool space to work with, relationships with private equity and the debt world, tons of experience, and one of the best assets in the city. Everyone in retail real estate knows who Sleiman is (just met the CFO of WRI at a WRI holiday party and mentioned I was from Jax and he immediately mentioned Sleiman's name).
Assuming his deal isn't so shoddy and allows him some free reign and upside, if I were him I'd start throwing money at that thing and working it. My architectural vision would be for a more rustic look, obviously better floors, openings to the street, less "formulaic" shopping center elements which Rouse put in and Sleiman hasn't gotten rid of, etc. I'd throw all of the best names in Jax and in FL/SE a bone to open up enterprise in the Landing. I'd want to do a couple 10 year deals with credit tenants for credibility, and then open the rest up to "best in class" business owners and pop-up space and kiosk space for proven budding entrepreneurs.
I think while Rouse believes visitors like flashy new things and Hard Rock Cafe, others have found that visitors respond at least as positively to local stuff. Visitors go to CM and Ferry Building to get a taste of authentic sourdough (not from Boudin) or Amy's Bread or Blue Bottle Coffee (most popular in SF). They know or want to know what the locals are producing and eating, and they want quality...not overpriced touristy crap.
If Sleiman can get a Sur La Table and an Anthropologie in there, too...wow.
And then if he can just visit the food court at Westfield SF Centre and try to replicate on the 2nd floor...he'll have every office worker in downtown there every day. Stuff is good, fresh, and local...yet it's essentially a food court.
My firm was almost viewed as a savior along Newbury St...we are a major landlord that tenants can find stability in, rather than a feuding Back Bay family trust with 1-2 addresses or a failing Irish bank, etc. As we all know, the landlords in Avondale cannot be the best the city has to offer...and apparently some of the tenants/retailers/restauranteurs aren't either. Sleiman may be a strip mall king, but he has deeper pockets than just about anyone in the city, experience, and he has shown a willingness to invest (when he bought the Landing).
Anyone have inside information on why nothing is ever happening with this place? Why the city and Sleiman can't come to terms? How the deal is structured? If they know of local operators who would open there if give the chance?
River Fit Gym has been a nice addition. Beautiful views of downtown and the river and only $12 a month. Amazes me that some folks are still paying 60-80 bucks a month at the depressing, firetrap, religion-freaky YMCA. Best reason yet to go to the Landing.
^^Wonder how long that will last. Is that entry rate for 1-3 months and then there will be a hike up to standard gym rates of $40-$60/mo? They must not pay rent if that is the monthly rate...even a crowded crap gym in a ghetto strip mall can't turn a profit at a rate that low, LoL.
I have changed my tune (regarding Sleiman). I want the city to not give one more penny to office or parking. Not one. Can't force an office come back if there aren't naturally any downtown office users in the city and no general reason to be downtown or bring your business to the city.
Please city, help landlords like Sleiman and Chris Hionedes create real destination places downtown and bring top of the line independent businesses to the core. Foster small business growth either with incentives and grants to experienced operators or by simply getting out of the way and letting first time operators have a go on their own. Maybe then residential and tourism will come, and then after that companies will take note and start considering downtown a submarket to be in (not just companies here, but companies looking for interstate relocation opportunities).
It really impressed me that the only Jax name the CFO of WRI mentioned was Sleiman. Obviously Regency is a competitor to a degree, but Sleiman is someone he thinks of when he thinks of Jax. Sleiman knows people and he has the experience. I have heard he's difficult to deal with, but someone in the city needs to suck it up and deal with him and form a positive working relationship so we can get something done with the Landing that will have long lasting ripple effects for downtown.
Sleiman has capital markets relationships on both the debt and equity side. His relationships probably run deeper than anyone else in real estate save for Hap Stein/Bruce Johnson of Regency or perhaps Peter Rummell, who while chair of ULI, seems to have done zip for his hometown in the real estate/development department (no pet projects from you? none? really? are there no egotistical maniacal developers in this city?). Sleiman did take two steps forward initially and take on the Landing...he has shown a willingness to try at least a little bit, and he knows he has the big key to unlocking downtown's potential.
Yes Sleiman can do something with the center without his parking garage and so far as I can tell the ground lease deal is not a hold up for anything, but if he's going to play hard ball and hold the city to their own promise, the city should work with him rather than the Parador group (a trio of guys just using the city like it's never been used before...with nothing to show for it). Sleiman has personal experience at least 10x the aggregate experience of the partners of Parador in doing real estate deals, and considering the Parador guys are using [entirely?] their own money, obviously Sleiman has the deeper capital markets relationships with which to get the ball rolling on redevelopment. Why the city is running to the Parador guys and running from Sleiman is beyond me...Parador guys just crept up in the last couple years without an actual deal or promise from the city...Sleiman has been asking the city to honor its end of an actual deal they made with him for the better part of a decade now!
I can see why Sleiman is playing hard ball. I bet if the city steps up and Sleiman gets rolling on the Landing and then blows his proforma out of the water, you'll see Sleiman create a 2nd business focus on destination intown retail. Can the city please get the man going? He's stubborn and won't proceed until you honor your deal with him or at least make him happy.
^^^Simms3
I remember all the seemingly genuine enthusiasm and real excitement felt in the air as Mr.Sleiman delivered his original "It's About TIME!" presentation to the press.
I was there.
His architectural renderings and scale models were eye opening and truly attention grabbers.
An on-site hotel on the west end near the (then) recently revamped Times-Union Center, multi-level parking near the Alsop/Main St. bridge, and like you (and many others) have mentioned; strategically opening some of the ideally situated key lease spaces/store fronts to the street (but not necessarily ALL of them).
My LEAST favorite idea (for reasons of associated costs) was removing a slice of the structure at the south end of Laura St., even though doing so would provide an attractive, enamoring view of the River and Southbank, sailboat masts at the marina connected to River City Brewing Co., leading visitors to cross to Friendship park and possibly reasoning to choose OUR Downtown for any number of uses.
You are right, the Parador partners garage does absolutely NOTHING to enhance the way one experiences our inner core. Now a streetcar/skyway transit station, ground level retail, over 2,200 parking spaces, AND a covered pedestrian bridge into the Landing may change my mind.
I have been a member at that gym ever since it was Golds over on Forsyth St. Pam the lady who owns it now, has kept the rates low ever since she took over, downsized it and moved it to the Landing. It has been over three years now, rates are still the same. She does not even turn the air in the summer time! fans and open doors!
Here is a look at Sleiman's past plans for the Landing:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2650993022_ccb7e35590_o.jpg)
This rendering illustrates the concept of relocating the food court to the storefronts that back up to the green space where the Jackson statue used to be. This would turn the intersection of Hogan and Independent into an activity center and allow the upstairs food court to be converted into addition sit-down restaurants with a river view.
(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/121505/107246_300.jpg)
^Sleiman presenting the plan to open the courtyard up to Laura Street.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/development/downtown/image13.jpg)
A model of the plan Sleiman was presenting.
I think The Landing's rejuvenation starts with Fuddruckers.
I think the Landing's rejuvenation will begin with getting the criminal element the hell out of there. When was the last murder or near murder? Yesterday? Heck I'm going to organize an insurance company with a kiosk right outside the Landing and offer a "mayhem policy" that provides benefits in the event the policyholder is beaten, robbed, or killed in or within 100 yards of the Landing perimeter. Of course, given the history, the premium will have to be on the pricey side.
Seriously, when the Landing opened, I had high hopes for a renaissance since I was then an owner of a couple of downtown parcels. The tenants were upscale, the second story food court was full on both sides of the central aisle, and it all imploded before long. The developer was the same company that developed Faneuil Hall, the Inner Harbor at Baltimore, etc. They hung in there a fair amount of time and then hit the silk. if you ask Tony who is the smartest businessman he knows, he might say The Rouse Company - sort of like Mr. Khan saying it's Wayne Weaver.
Months ago I posited that downtown won't go anywhere until someone with money and a real set of cojones has a vision and spends the money to make it happen. The City will have to be involved too, but I only hope it has the sense to make sure the new guy on the block has some skin in the game, i.e., something to lose if his vision goes awry, so the the City doesn't take the entire loss.
Quote from: cline on December 21, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
I think The Landing's rejuvenation starts with Fuddruckers.
Disagree...rejuvenation doesn't start with a national chain burger franchise whose parent is in financial distress.
...
WmNussbaum, really? (to your first points)...I think Toney knows he has good real estate with potential. I also think he has a good deal with a cheap ground lease that can allow him to sit back and hold the city to its word to provide parking (though I bet if Toney finds a partner willing to do something along the lines of what I suggest, which would not require a new parking garage with dedicated spaces...he'd be happy with plain old city incentive assistance).
...
The plans for the Landing were so typical for mid-2000s. I find them boring and highly outdated now, and certainly not "authentic". Rendering shows Panera, a brand that should be kept out of a rejuvenated Landing at all costs. I would get rid of current paint scheme, brown up the roof a bit, and go for more natural finishes. Keep it as local and high end market oriented as possible and be very selective with national tenants who may one day desire space there.
I don't think incorporating "greenspace" is all that important given the location...I'd maximize use with as much "usable" public space as possible. Grassy areas are a waste there and mid/high-rise condos and offices on top will kill the vibe that the Landing could have (i.e. overkill). It should be a public market that puts the best of the best of Jacksonville under one roof, has an intense pop-up program, breeds new businesses, draws crowds with events, and somehow hearkens back to the days of all the waterfront piers and shipping activity that used to define the area...that way the city will be stepping back to its roots and offering something unique and interesting to both residents and tourists.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on December 21, 2012, 06:24:04 PM
I think the Landing's rejuvenation will begin with getting the criminal element the hell out of there. When was the last murder or near murder? Yesterday?
that's a bit more perception than reality....I'm down there several times a week and rarely feel unsafe.
Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
Quote from: cline on December 21, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
I think The Landing's rejuvenation starts with Fuddruckers.
Disagree...rejuvenation doesn't start with a national chain burger franchise whose parent is in financial distress.
dude...it was a joke...try looking through all the Landing/Fuddruckers threads
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2012, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: WmNussbaum on December 21, 2012, 06:24:04 PM
I think the Landing's rejuvenation will begin with getting the criminal element the hell out of there. When was the last murder or near murder? Yesterday?
that's a bit more perception than reality....I'm down there several times a week and rarely feel unsafe.
x100
I live two blocks away from the Landing, and routinely walk all over downtown at differing hours of the day and night; I've never been "threatened", nor have I ever seen any misbehavior of any sort aside from the occasional Panhandler. (And even they're just a nuisance, not at all "threatening".
I'll bet that Downtown's actual crime stats are way below other parts of the city. Anybody got stats by neighborhood?
The Landing is just plain janky. You could put 20 parking garages all around it and it wouldn't do a damn thing for it. The same is true for Hemming Plaza, removing benches or tables won't do a damn thing for it. If you build it, they will come. People turnout in the thousands when something good is going on downtown. They all find parking.
The solution is to remodel and build excitement. The people will come. City hall should be returned to what it was built for and the retail corridor should continue all the way down to the landing.
My vision for the Landing starts with the history of this city. Beside the silhouettes of former important city figures hanging the food court, there is not a lot of cultural references in what some consider the epicenter of downtown. Where do you see Klutho's influences? Didn't thousands of ships dock in the exact location of "The Landing"? The building itself could be built anywhere in suburbia and it would be just another strip mall. What makes the Landing such an enticing property is its central location with a theme package included. There is no need to ask Disney to help develop a master plan. The better option lies in the history books. It's as easy as the property embracing its wharf like charm. The Landing should be a destination location. Parking is not the issue. The 1980's threw-up on the Jacksonville riverfront, deal with it.
umm...there is a martitime museum at the Landing....does that not speak of our history?
I believe Mathew1056 is referring to the overall architecture, historical markers and a construction that would put one back in the day with wharf like themes, tin roofs, etc. Think of it as a super sized Crawldaddy's.
A mini 'small ship cruise' port that doubles as a marine welcome station and Visit Jacksonville office wouldn't hurt either. Many probably have no idea that we are on a regular rotation for small ship cruises and currently the only thing to welcome them is a concrete Riverwalk slab between the Main Street Bridge and the Hyatt.
I'm still interested in placing life size bronze's of famous Jaxson's and those who otherwise called Jacksonville Home. Imagine having a life size Oliver (Babe) Hardy, Ray Charles or Creature From The Black Lagoon, scattered in little clusters all along the Riverwalks.
I believe you have to pay to enter the maritime museum now but I get the point of view where Mathew1056 and Simms are coming from. The Landing's days as a festival marketplace with national chains that were unique to Jacksonville are over. However, there is a lot of opportunity to be had by integrating the structure and theme to better utilize the area's strengths, which include its waterfront setting, downtown location, site history, and innovation & creativity of Jax's residents. Figuring out its future role in the downtown environment should be one of the highest priorities on the DIA's list, imo.
St. Johns Pass is basically a tourist trap now but the architecture still passes off the theme as a fishing village.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/St-Petersburg-2012/i-tJkvFkp/0/M/P1610030-M.jpg)
However, probably the most exciting thing to me was it's still a working waterfront.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/St-Petersburg-2012/i-dDrtkb3/0/M/P1610032-M.jpg)
When looking at the Landing, the Shipyards and the rest of the downtown waterfront, it seems there are a ton of local organic opportunities that we can take advantage of.
Yes Lake, the Johns Pass theme is what I believe they should be looking for also.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2012-12-22at111412AM_zpsbe5a2973-1_zps9130e55f.jpg)
Crawldaddy's was a pretty spot on reconstruction of the old wharves.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2012-12-22at111457AM_zps126a1a85-1_zpse31f63cc.jpg)
Above and Below, River Grille on the Tomoka River in Ormond Beach is another place that nailed the theme as an old port.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/ScreenShot2012-12-22at111542AM_zpsa0975df1-1_zpsd99277b3.jpg)
simms3, Planet Fitness has locations all over that are $10 a month, with a $29 annual fee. I don't belong to one, but they are opening up in lots of cities. They are mostly cardio and machines, no much free weights.
I lived in the Tampa Bay area for over 6 years...and went to Johns Pass twice
I grew up in Central Florida and went back for a couple of years after college and went there only once the entire time. Heck, Downtown Disney is only 20 minutes away from my parents house and I've been there less than five times total. However, someone is going there and as long as it's a working waterfront, it provides an economic stimulant that's not tourist or retail based. I believe we need to view our downtown the same way. While many believe a successful downtown means lots of retail, restaurants, and clubs, a truly organic and self sustainable urban core needs a well rounded economic base. So there's a still a value in having a Maxwell House, North Florida Shipyards, marinas, seafood markets, and even simply allowing residents to fish from a pier or riverwalk, where feasible.
I think hiding our economic attachment to the water behind a facade is missing a huge opportunity. What better message to leave in a travelers head that we have a bustling, dense, diverse economy, water based economy As far as the architecture, I think just as Miami has Art Deco Jacksonville has Prairie School. If the point is to be marketable attaching an architectural movement with a city is a good way of creating a positive image. I think there are plenty of modern designs that could be expressed through Prairie style. Call it Neo-Prairie or Modern Prairie. We need to create a stronger city culture.
Well, I see we're all kind of on the same page. I am afraid of anything too hoakie and I don't think it would be feasible to make too many structural changes to the Landing (i.e. turning it into a wooden looking structure that is akin to Crawdaddy's). I don't think the Landing needs to be "themed", per se, just a host to all of the best business owners of Jax under one roof and a cooler, more authentic feel that doesn't scream 80s Rouse development. Glossed wood floors in the interior, better pain job, lots of money for tenant buildouts so that each space has a unique feel to it, selectivity with vendors and tenants, street presence and perhaps an opening to Laura St, etc etc.
The big difference as I see it as to where the Landing should go is that now it screams "shopping center" and it should scream "collective" or "market". It shouldn't feel "corporate", but more authentic and varied. There shouldn't be the obvious presence of a "Landlord".
I work on a shopping center that had a CA crafstman appearance, so the whole center looked like it was one entity. What we have done is reverse that and encourage all shops, especially local ones, to come up with their own look and feel so long as it fits the guidelines and our standards...and we help out with TI packages with an emphasis on exterior improvements so they can be distinguished from their neighbors.
In Chelsea Market the vendor and tenant spaces are nothing too special, but the corridors and the overall feel of the common areas are amazing and what draws so many to the market (well that and all of the vendors are the best in their business in NYC, under one roof).
Landing should be a culture generator and small business incubator. What's amazing about Atlanta even compared to "cultured" cities such as Saint Louis is that local businesses have gained such a huge following...it's a city that has led the nation's "go local" movement. King of Pops, Sublime Donuts, Dancing Goats Coffee, Spotted Trotter meats, Mark Edge jewelry, etc etc. The point of Ponce City Market will be to provide patrons the opportunity to experience all of the best local brands/businesses under one roof.
While id like to see the landing opened to the water, it is the only building blocking a street view of the river in downtown...so we're hardly hiding our waterfront
Quote from: simms3 on December 22, 2012, 01:44:17 PMThe big difference as I see it as to where the Landing should go is that now it screams "shopping center" and it should scream "collective" or "market". It shouldn't feel "corporate", but more authentic and varied. There shouldn't be the obvious presence of a "Landlord".
I've always felt the Landing screams 1980s failed festival marketplace, moreso than a traditional shopping center. I still view as more as a failed Faneuil Hall than a SJTC or Avenues Mall. However, I agree with the "market" concept. I'm not familiar with what Ponce City Market is supposed to be but it sounds like you're describing what would basically be a public market. I'm not sure about what Toney Sleiman will do with the Landing but that's essentially what BSF wants to do with the farmer's market expansion on Beaver Street.
Milwaukee's Public Market
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231107928_ACVf4-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231108797_F9boK-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231107624_AE3cw-M.jpg)
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 22, 2012, 01:45:33 PM
While id like to see the landing opened to the water, it is the only building blocking a street view of the river in downtown...so we're hardly hiding our waterfront
I don't think it needs an architectural makeover to be successful. However, I do believe the opening of the courtyard and Landing will be better for the long term success of Laura Street and the Northbank because of the resulting visual connectivity. Right now, we have a "public square" that has replaced Hemming in importance that's sealed off from the rest of downtown. I believe exposing our existing uses to the street (I include the Landing in this) will do more in the short term for downtown vibrancy and foot traffic than anything else.
I think that opening up the courtyard is the biggest structural improvement that can be made. As far as the facade of the Landing itself, Neglecting it would be there best option at this point. It would not cost them a lot of money to add some metal sheeting in some places. I'm not calling on cheesy Disney style experience, but a tasteful blend of many elements that already inhabit this city. The Landing is ground zero for creating a walkable district downtown. Sleiman needs to put up or back out. The property is a timecapsule of a different development philosophy. It has not improved in the least in the past few years.
My wife and I were in the Milwaukee Public Market last week, a side trip from scoping out apartments in the Chicago area. For a cold weekend in December, it was pretty vibrant. Not packed but definitely busy. My wife commented that she wished the Landing was more like that and less like a downtown mall.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2012, 02:42:17 PM
I've always felt the Landing screams 1980s failed festival marketplace, moreso than a traditional shopping center. I still view as more as a failed Faneuil Hall than a SJTC or Avenues Mall.
Funny that you say that Lake, the Chamber of Commerce and City Government under Jake Godbold went to two places from Jacksonville via Piedmont Airlines: Faneuil Hall and Inner Harbor. Faneuil Hall was the model they brought back and the reason The Landing was ultimately built the way it was.
^Of course. The Landing was developed by Rouse. Rouse developed Faneuil Hall, Baltimore's Harborplace and the rest of the 1980s festival marketplaces. The marketplaces in the first tier urban centers typically did better than those in second tier cities such as Jacksonville, Norfolk, Toledo, and Richmond. To the Landing's credit, it's still around. A good number of them have already been converted into other uses or outright demolished.
I agree 100% stephen!
(write this down)
I cannot at this moment put my fingers on the notes taken during a round tabling involving a combination of ideas to better connect the pedestrian access to Riverwalks on BOTH sides of the St.Johns.
Freight elevators up to the Main St. bridge from the Landing/Hyatt/Daniels garage allowing active folks to enjoy a stroll to and from Friendship park, anyone?
I know that from the area of the new roundabout at Laura/Independent, a slow gradual ascent is possible, but for temporary tourists who have walked to the Landing from Riverside, along the river's edge, and for the sake of ADA compliance, why not install an open-air bare bones lift up to the sidewalk of the big blue bridge?