As many as 27... 18 grade school children dead. :'(
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1
Tragedies like this are beyond description
what a cowardly piece of shit this guy is. hope he burns in hell.
very sad.
Live press conference on the link below:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/cvplive/cvpstream2&hpt=hp_t1#/video/cvplive/cvpstream2
Points:
* The shooter is deceased
* Students and teachers killed
* scene is secure
No official background narrative, yet.
2012 has become the year of the gun
Shooter is dead... reports that he may be 20 y.o...
I have no desire to step into a "gun control" debate. But I wish that mental health care were as easy to get as a gun.
Yes. NBC is saying one of the gunman's parents was found dead and that his mom was a teacher at the school.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I have no desire to step into a "gun control" debate. But I wish that mental health care were as easy to get as a gun.
Yes, however every time something like this happens there is a certain segment of the population that immediately wants to take away the guns of the people that DIDN'T SHOOT! Same old thing, the 911 terror attack was done with box knives, should we all register our cutlery?
As for the incident, I can't wrap my mind around this outrageous, cowardly, murderous event. For me its not the guns, but the actions of someone far too sick to have been in the general population. Shame he is dead, because the prisoners at the state pen would have had a field day with this nameless bastard. How does anyone kill an innocent child? I hope I never know.
When the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot seized control of Cambodia they moved the entire urban population into the countryside where they proceeded to remove all of the children so they could be clubbed to death or tossed into fenced bogs full of crocodile's. People with a desire to murder will find a way no matter what we take away or restrict from the law abiding community. In the case of Cambodia, somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million were murdered.
http://www.wfsb.com/story/20345707/cbs-27-people-dead-in-newtown-school-shooting
Quote
CBS: 27 people dead in Newtown school shooting
Posted: Dec 14, 2012 9:56 AM EST Updated: Dec 14, 2012 2:40 PM EST
By Steven Yablonski, Managing Editor - email
By Joseph Wenzel - email
© CBS News is reporting that the Newtown school shooting suspect is Ryan Lanza. (Photo from Facebook)
NEWTOWN, CT (WFSB) -
CBS News is reporting that 27 people including numerous children have been killed along with the gunman after a shooting inside a school in Newtown Friday morning.
The scene is being called 'atrocious' inside the Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Sources told Eyewitness News that nine of those killed are adults and 18 are children. State police said multiple people including the gunman are dead, but would not specify the total number of casualties.
The gunman was found dead inside the school, but it was unknown how the unidentified gunman died.
State police said this is one of the worst shootings emergency officials have seen in a long time.
CBS News is reporting that the shooting suspect is Ryan Lanza, who is 24 and lives in New Jersey. He is a former Quinnipac University student and lived in Newtown
Eyewitness News is on scene of a home in Newtown on Yoganada Street, where Lanza's mother is believed to have been found dead.
CBS News is reporting that Lanza's mother was a teacher at the Sandy Hook Elementary School.
According to CBS News, the gunman got into an argument with people at the front office, possibly the principal, at about 9:30 a.m. People have to be buzzed in before entering the school and there is a camera to view whoever is entering the building.
Sources have confirmed that at least one other person is in custody, however it is unclear if they are connected to the shooting.
Two semi-automatic weapons have been recovered from the scene, police said.
Connecticut State Police is assisting the Newtown police along with other agencies with the shooting investigation.
Multiple police, ambulance and emergency crews from the surrounding area remain at the scene.
During a press conference at Treadwell Park Friday afternoon, state police Lt. Paul Vance said the scene is secure.
"The public is no longer in danger," he said.
Upon arrival, state police immediately entered the building and performed a search of the building. Children inside the school were evacuated to the nearby Sandy Hook Volunteer Fire Department and reunited with some of their parents at this staging area.
Sources told Eyewitness News that someone may have tripped the loud speaker system as possible a way of warning everyone in the school.
Fourth grader told Eyewitness News that a scream was heard over the intercom this morning and then shut off.
Sources are also reporting that the gunman went classroom to classroom shooting adults and children. There were piles of bodies seen inside the school and there are reports of a whole classroom missing.
Connecticut has called surrounding states for more medical examiners because they do not have enough to conduct autopsies.
Gov. Dannel P. Malloy, who has been in communication with President Barack Obama and the head of FBI, is at the scene in Newtown and just before 12:30 p.m., he had finished a conference call with federal officials about what assistance could be needed.
According to Roy Occhiogrosso, his top adviser, said Malloy is meeting with the families of the victims and their main goal is to get them as much information as possible.
Malloy is expected to hold a news conference at Treadwell Park around 3:30 p.m.
Vance said police are executing warrants on the possible in and out of state.
Eyewitness News reporters on the scene observed a man in camouflage gear being taken away from the staging area. He screamed to people in the area that he was not involved in the shooting.
Danbury Hospital is lock down as a precaution measure to allow their staff to work uninterrupted and give patients privacy. Hospital officials will not confirm number of dead.
The superintendent's office said all the schools were placed in lock down schools as a preventive measure to ensure safety of the students and staff. All schools except for Sandy Hook Elementary School are no longer on lock down.
The only shooting was at Sandy Hook Elementary School, officials confirmed.
According to sources, Yale-New Haven Hospital has activated emergency triage unit, which responds to mass-casualty incidents.
There are 600 students in grades kindergarten to fourth that attend Sandy Hook Elementary School.
According to Newtown officials, afternoon kindergarten is canceled for Friday and there will be no midday bus runs.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 14, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I have no desire to step into a "gun control" debate. But I wish that mental health care were as easy to get as a gun.
Yes, however every time something like this happens there is a certain segment of the population that immediately wants to take away the guns of the people that DIDN'T SHOOT! Same old thing, the 911 terror attack was done with box knives, should we all register our cutlery?
As for the incident, I can't wrap my mind around this outrageous, cowardly, murderous event. For me its not the guns, but the actions of someone far too sick to have been in the general population. Shame he is dead, because the prisoners at the state pen would have had a field day with this nameless bastard. How does anyone kill an innocent child? I hope I never know.
When the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot seized control of Cambodia they moved the entire urban population into the countryside where they proceeded to remove all of the children so they could be clubbed to death or tossed into fenced bogs full of crocodile's. People with a desire to murder will find a way no matter what we take away or restrict from the law abiding community. In the case of Cambodia, somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million were murdered.
Hear, hear!
Quote from: copperfiend on December 14, 2012, 02:28:15 PM
Yes. NBC is saying one of the gunman's parents was found dead and that his mom was a teacher at the school.
The father has just been found dead in New Jersey...
This is a most tragic incident and every parent in the world who is hearing about this is feeling as if their own child has been snatched from their arms. My heart is on fire. Every loving human being will find this a profound and painful disaster. The heartbreak of this incident cannot be adequately described or put into words. Now is not the time for wild speculation of what happened. Nor is it time to discuss gun control and other tragedies. Out of respect for the lives of these babies and adults and the shared loss being experienced at this very time it is my hope that discussion of this issue will stay focused on the facts. More importantly that we all hold these babies and their families in our hearts. I will be praying for them and say so on the forum not to provoke any type of religious debate but rather to ask others who do believe in the power of prayer to do the same. Let's all let discussions about guns, other tragedies, thoughts about mental illness and all associated debate go for now and save it for another day. Babies have been brutally murdered today. That is the reality and if we are truly mature and caring people, we can show that much respect.
The facts here are ever shifting. It will be a while before there is enough valid information available to begin to understand how this tragedy unfolded.
3:54 update: NBC News reports the gunman may have been carrying someone else’s identification and may not be Ryan Lanza
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-12-14/story/ap-connecticut-shooting-suspect-20-year-old-son-teacher#ixzz2F3znYKE9
Incredibly sad. :(
Quote from: stephendare on December 14, 2012, 03:30:59 PM
very moving speech by Obama.
Something about seeing the President cry is heartbreaking.
Even our local anchors, Tom Wills and his partner were reduced to tears on air after the President's speech.
It was a very touching speech. And I am sure many reports/anchors across the country are having a tough time reporting on these tragic events.
Unspeakable! Children! Innocents! Sometimes I wish hell was real.
Stephen, I believe you have been misinformed about the shooter's name. In the race to report, it has been incorrectly dispensed throughout the media world.
Things are still being sorted.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-wrong-ryan-lanza-pictured-on-cbs-2012-12?pundits_only=0&get_all_comments=1#comment-50cb97d4eab8ea7548000007
It looks to me like schools are becoming more and more dangerous. Something needs to be done about these places... Children corralled together. Easy targets. Few adults, with zero firepower to respond to a gunman.
Serious consideration needs to be given to alternative means of educating our children. No more corralling them in for loonies with weapons.
Quote from: stephendare on December 14, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:56:36 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 14, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I have no desire to step into a "gun control" debate. But I wish that mental health care were as easy to get as a gun.
Yes, however every time something like this happens there is a certain segment of the population that immediately wants to take away the guns of the people that DIDN'T SHOOT! Same old thing, the 911 terror attack was done with box knives, should we all register our cutlery?
As for the incident, I can't wrap my mind around this outrageous, cowardly, murderous event. For me its not the guns, but the actions of someone far too sick to have been in the general population. Shame he is dead, because the prisoners at the state pen would have had a field day with this nameless bastard. How does anyone kill an innocent child? I hope I never know.
When the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot seized control of Cambodia they moved the entire urban population into the countryside where they proceeded to remove all of the children so they could be clubbed to death or tossed into fenced bogs full of crocodile's. People with a desire to murder will find a way no matter what we take away or restrict from the law abiding community. In the case of Cambodia, somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million were murdered.
Hear, hear!
What on earth does this have to do with a single person being able to shoot and murder hundreds of children at a time?
We shudder at giving a woman the responsibility for choosing to end a single fetus, but turn around and defend empowering mentally disturbed people to decide life and death for a hundred people at a time.
This is inconsistent at best, and having people with the ability to kill so many at one time is a danger to the entire society.
Ock. Are you under the impression that the Khmer Rouge was unarmed?
First off, what a horror. I can't even imagine what scores of families are going through tonight, and I'm not certain that I want to. What a crazy, crazy man.
But once again I have to take exception to your (predictable) rush to pin responsibility for this action on the tool used, rather than the person wielding it. Think this wouldn't have been an equally horrific scene if this guy went on a rampage with a bowie knife? How about if he had that baseball bat you like to use as a rhetorical device in these gun control arguments? Or a brick? It would have been slaughter regardless; he was up against women and children.
I think we all agree that crazy people should not have the ability to acquire firearms, and there are laws in place to prevent precisely that which work exceedingly well. Criminals, drug addicts and those with mental issues cannot purchase firearms. Period. Wont get out of the store with it.
Disarming our society would not eliminate violence, but would merely change the details of the horror. Evil exists, and no amount of legislation, prohibition, regulation or overreach will ever remove violence from the hearts of evil people.
On a related note; yes, the Khmer Rouge was very well armed, unlike the peasants they indiscriminately slaughtered. Not really the sort of model we ought to be following here in the USA, wouldn't you agree Stephen?
^This tragedy is just 10 hours old. The bodies of many of the victims are still lying on the floor of the school where they fell. Let's keep the focus on the victims and all of those in shock and pain at this moment around the nation and world. It's just basic respect for the lives of those so tragically taken. Just for today please, let the arguments about the who, what's, when and where's alone and hold up the memory of those lost in a loving way. Please.
Diane
What we can do is hold in our hearts the three positively identified victims at this point.
The school Principal Dawn Hocksprung, age 47 and Mary Sherlock, school psychologist age 56.
Nancy Lanza Kindergarten teacher (mother of shooter)
Talking about prevention now is not too soon it's too late. We need guns to be harder to get. Knives and other weapons are not as effective at creating the instant carnage guns do.
Imagine the parents of these children. Imagine the sisters and brothers. Imagine the grandparents too. Horror and anguish and helplessness. Each moment being the same as before. Only time will bring the relief. But not soon enough.
Sleep, our precious ones, as we cannot. We live, and endure, and feel the pain. And you are gone.
Quote from: JeffreyS on December 14, 2012, 09:01:19 PM
Knives and other weapons are not as effective at creating the instant carnage guns do.
I beg to differ...
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15901085-villager-slashes-22-kids-with-knife-at-elementary-school-gates-in-china?lite
Thank you for making my point none of the children died in that attack. Some are critical but luckily the monster did not have a more effective weapon like an I don't know gun.
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
Quote from: Pinky on December 14, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: stephendare on December 14, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:56:36 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 14, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on December 14, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I have no desire to step into a "gun control" debate. But I wish that mental health care were as easy to get as a gun.
Yes, however every time something like this happens there is a certain segment of the population that immediately wants to take away the guns of the people that DIDN'T SHOOT! Same old thing, the 911 terror attack was done with box knives, should we all register our cutlery?
As for the incident, I can't wrap my mind around this outrageous, cowardly, murderous event. For me its not the guns, but the actions of someone far too sick to have been in the general population. Shame he is dead, because the prisoners at the state pen would have had a field day with this nameless bastard. How does anyone kill an innocent child? I hope I never know.
When the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot seized control of Cambodia they moved the entire urban population into the countryside where they proceeded to remove all of the children so they could be clubbed to death or tossed into fenced bogs full of crocodile's. People with a desire to murder will find a way no matter what we take away or restrict from the law abiding community. In the case of Cambodia, somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million were murdered.
Hear, hear!
What on earth does this have to do with a single person being able to shoot and murder hundreds of children at a time?
We shudder at giving a woman the responsibility for choosing to end a single fetus, but turn around and defend empowering mentally disturbed people to decide life and death for a hundred people at a time.
This is inconsistent at best, and having people with the ability to kill so many at one time is a danger to the entire society.
Ock. Are you under the impression that the Khmer Rouge was unarmed?
First off, what a horror. I can't even imagine what scores of families are going through tonight, and I'm not certain that I want to. What a crazy, crazy man.
But once again I have to take exception to your (predictable) rush to pin responsibility for this action on the tool used, rather than the person wielding it. Think this wouldn't have been an equally horrific scene if this guy went on a rampage with a bowie knife? How about if he had that baseball bat you like to use as a rhetorical device in these gun control arguments? Or a brick? It would have been slaughter regardless; he was up against women and children.
I think we all agree that crazy people should not have the ability to acquire firearms, and there are laws in place to prevent precisely that which work exceedingly well. Criminals, drug addicts and those with mental issues cannot purchase firearms. Period. Wont get out of the store with it.
Disarming our society would not eliminate violence, but would merely change the details of the horror. Evil exists, and no amount of legislation, prohibition, regulation or overreach will ever remove violence from the hearts of evil people.
On a related note; yes, the Khmer Rouge was very well armed, unlike the peasants they indiscriminately slaughtered. Not really the sort of model we ought to be following here in the USA, wouldn't you agree Stephen?
I call bullshit pinky.
If a fire burned these kids to death it would be gobstoppingly stupid to pretend there wasnt a fire.
And this isnt about removing evil, but from limiting the amount of damage that one person can inflict on innocent strangers.
Perhaps you think that indiscriminately slaughtering a bunch of 5 year old children is a better model or somehow a different model than ocklawaha's absurd comparison? Does it make you feel better to know that the slaughtering was done by an unpredictable person with mental problems?
If a fire burned these kids to death, would you be so loudly calling for the banning of matches and Bic lighters?? Again, you confuse "tool" with "action". Your confusion apparently extends to what is an "acceptable" level of damage that one person can inflict on others, as if it would have been hunky-dory had he only slashed 15 kids instead of shooting 30. When you strip away the shrill hyperbole and emotional knee-jerking, your position is laughable.
And of course I don't think that indiscriminate slaughter is an acceptable model, and that is why your Khmer Rouge analogy is as laughable as your call to ban firearms; my point is that level of slaughter was possible BECAUSE the peasants were unarmed, just as you would have us here in the US.
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
<SNIP>
Does it make you feel better to know that the slaughtering was done by an unpredictable person with mental problems?
Whoa there; stop the presses...
I thought THE GUNS were doing the slaughtering???!!!??? Wow, maybe we ought to look at regulating "Unpredictable people with mental problems" instead of the guns??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVHlD1Gnv4
Shall we ban cars too? The Dutch have very strict gun control.
It is hard for me to believe that we can't find common ground with the statement "it is too easy for a wack job to get guns in the USA. "
The facts about this case seem to be evolving, but as I understand it, the guns were registered not to the shooter, but to a family member.. perhaps the mother who was killed.
He obtained them illegally. Obviously, if they weren't there, he couldn't have gotten them.
Additionally, if the children had not been corralled at the school, he would not have been able to attack so many in such a manner.
I think I read somewhere that he drove himself to the location, meaning his access to a car enabled this massacre.
I would imagine the gun owner bears some responsibility, if this shooter has displayed uncontrollable rage coupled tendency towards violence frequently in the past. (Barring, of course if the guns were properly stored and the kid killed his mom to gain access to the guns).
Quote from: JeffreyS on December 15, 2012, 07:36:08 AM
It is hard for me to believe that we can't find common ground with the statement "it is too easy for a wack job to get guns in the USA. "
+1
Quote from: JeffreyS on December 15, 2012, 07:36:08 AM
It is hard for me to believe that we can't find common ground with the statement "it is too easy for a wack job to get guns in the USA. "
Absolutely agreed. Where we seem to differ is whether the solution lies in disarming our society, or perhaps doing more to identify and treat the few people within it who display signs of instability. With few exceptions, the majority of the people who commit such atrocities have a history of acting out in an escalating fashion. (In this case the shooters older brother mentioned being estranged from him for a period of several years, likely because the kid was a dangerous nut.)
This was horrific. My heart goes out to the families it is how Obama said, heart breaking in every way.
Far as what this thread is becoming "The Great Debate" I shall comment from a law enforcement point of view.
Let us ban cars, to stop DUI?
Let us close stores, to stop theft?
Let us take away you're right to freedom of speech, because you hurt someone's feelings?
Not the answer, better parenting. The government cannot continue to overlook those with mental illness and ignoring them in hopes it will go away. Nor will putting them in a institution for a year and then releasing them to turn around and harm people again is the answer. The government needs to seriously address mental health.
I will leave with a story that depending on the responses will show if someone actually read it or not.
Let us not forget a man in China went into a school and stabbed over 20 children as well on the 14th of December. Not the first time in China that has happened either.
Parable of the Sheep
By Charles Riggs, © 1997
Not so long ago and in a pasture too uncomfortably close to here, a flock of sheep lived and grazed. They were protected by a dog, who answered to the master, but despite his best efforts from time to time a nearby pack of wolves would prey upon the flock.
One day a group of sheep, more bold than the rest, met to discuss their dilemma. "Our dog is good, and vigilant, but he is one dog and the wolves are many. The wolves he catches are not always killed, and the master judges and releases many to prey again upon us, for no reason we can understand. What can we do? We are sheep, but we do not wish to be food, too!"
One sheep spoke up, saying "It is his teeth and claws that make the wolf so terrible to us. It is his nature to prey, and he would find any way to do it, but it is the tools he wields that make it possible. If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery." The other sheep clamored in agreement, and they went together to the old bones of the dead wolves heaped in the corner of the pasture, and gathered fang and claw and made them into weapons.
That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them and cried "Begone! We are not food!" and drove off the wolves, who were astonished. When did sheep become so bold and so dangerous to wolves? When did sheep grow teeth? It was unthinkable!
The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out "Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!"
The brave sheep stopped, amazed. "But we are your brethren!" they cried, "We are still sheep, but we do not wish to be food. See, our new teeth and claws protect us and have saved us from slaughter. They do not make us into wolves, they make us equal to the wolves, and safe from their viciousness!"
"Baaaaaaaddd!", cried the flock,"the things are bad and will pervert you, and we fear them. You cannot bring them into the flock. They scare us!". So the armed sheep resolved to conceal their weapons, for although they had no desire to panic the flock, they wished to remain in the fold. But they would not return to those nights of terror, waiting for the wolves to come.
In time, the wolves attacked less often and sought easier prey, for they had no stomach for fighting sheep who possessed tooth and claw even as they did. Not knowing which sheep had fangs and which did not, they came to leave sheep out of their diet almost completely except for the occasional raid, from which more than one wolf did not return. Then came the day when, as the flock grazed beside the stream, one sheep's weapon slipped from the folds of her fleece, and the flock cried out in terror again, "Baaaaaaddddd! You still possess these evil things! We must ban you from our presence!".
And so they did. The great chief sheep and his court and council, encouraged by the words of their moneylenders and advisors, placed signs and totems at the edges of the pasture forbidding the presence of hidden weapons there. The armed sheep protested before the council, saying "It is our pasture, too, and we have never harmed you! When can you say we have caused you hurt? It is the wolves, not we, who prey upon you. We are still sheep, but we are not food!". But the flock would not hear, and drowned them out with cries of "Baaaaaaddd! We will not hear your clever words! You and your things are evil and will harm us!".
Saddened by this rejection, the armed sheep moved off and spent their days on the edges of the flock, trying from time to time to speak with their brethren to convince them of the wisdom of having such teeth, but meeting with little success. They found it hard to talk to those who, upon hearing their words, would roll back their eyes and flee, crying "Baaaaddd! Bad things!".
That night, the wolves happened upon the sheep's totems and signs, and said, "Truly, these sheep are fools! They have told us they have no teeth! Brothers, let us feed!". And they set upon the flock, and horrible was the carnage in the midst of the fold. The dog fought like a demon, and often seemed to be in two places at once, but even he could not halt the slaughter. It was only when the other sheep arrived with their weapons that the wolves fled, vowing to each other to remain on the edge of the pasture and wait for the next time they could prey, for if the sheep were so foolish once, they would be so again. This they did, and do still.
In the morning, the armed sheep spoke to the flock, and said, "See? If the wolves know you have no teeth, they will fall upon you. Why be prey? To be a sheep does not mean to be food for wolves!". But the flock cried out, more feebly for their voices were fewer, though with no less terror, "Baaaaaaaadddd! These things are bad! If they were banished, the wolves would not harm us! Baaaaaaaddd!". The other sheep could only hang their heads and sigh. The flock had forgotten that even they possessed teeth; how else could they graze the grasses of the pasture? It was only those who preyed, like the wolves and jackals, who turned their teeth to evil ends. If you pulled their own fangs those beasts would take another's teeth and claws, perhaps even the broad flat teeth of sheep, and turn them to evil purposes.
The bold sheep knew that the fangs and claws they possessed had not changed them. They still grazed like other sheep, and raised their lambs in the spring, and greeted their friend the dog as he walked among them. But they could not quell the terror of the flock, which rose in them like some ancient dark smoky spirit and could not be damped by reason, nor dispelled by the light of day.
So they resolved to retain their weapons, but to conceal them from the flock; to endure their fear and loathing, and even to protect their brethren if the need arose, until the day the flock learned to understand that as long as there were wolves in the night, sheep would need teeth to repel them.
They would still be sheep, but they would not be food!
By Charles Riggs, © 1997
There is no call to disarm the American people and the gun rights people know it. They just have trouble being outraged at reasonable solutions so they pretend there is a real effort to ban all guns.
You can defend your home and hunt with long barrel pump action shot guns and single shot rifles but those are not good weapons of mass execution or for robbing a liquor store. Such a simple problem to solve but so many need to deal with their inadequacy issues by stroking their glock.
Quote from: stephendare on December 14, 2012, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 14, 2012, 12:59:32 PM
As many as 27... 18 grade school children dead. :'(
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1
(http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/16/66/20/3892249/7/628x471.jpg)
Its a good thing that guns dont cause violence or mass killings.
I guess "the voices in my head" took this to be another predictable effort on your part to pin the responsibility for the action upon the tool used. They also found the fact that this was the second post in the thread to be in very bad taste.
People bent on violence will find whatever method they can to do so. Guns, swords, cars, Sherman tanks, it matters not, so I find your second question irrelevant.
Finally, get this through your skull: I find the slaughter of anyone, anywhere, anytime, by any method, to be unspeakably wrong. We differ on whether tighter regulation of a specific type of firearm is the best solution to that problem. Knock off the personal crap and help me understand why you feel it is.
God, I wish the gun supporters would show a little less defensiveness and a lot more sensitivity when things like this happen. You just make your own position look bad.
I am beginning to question what is wrong with our young males?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f0/Eric_Harris.JPG/117px-Eric_Harris.JPG)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/Dylan_Klebold.JPG/117px-Dylan_Klebold.JPG)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a2/ChoSh.jpg/220px-ChoSh.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/James_Holmes%2C_cropped.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Jared_Loughner_USMS.jpg/170px-Jared_Loughner_USMS.jpg)
(http://www.ryot.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Adam-Lanza-630x418.jpg)
First question... yes.
Second... I...personally... do not think there is "better" or "easier" access to weapons. In my household growing up and most families that I knew... nearly everyone had at least a shotgun and rifle... and in many cases multiple instances of those. They were used for hunting and target shooting by most males in the family. Access was easy.
For me... the most common thread here is young supposedly "disaffected" or "troubled" loner males. We had those when I was growing up... and I suspect these people have existed throughout time.
Something is different in our society today that seems to make these acts by these youths acceptable to them... or a viable method of retribution or revenge. We need to try and understand why this has become an acceptable behavior by these people.
I do not have the answers... no one does...
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 11:41:11 AM
Young semi wealthy murderers have always been with us. The difference is how many people they are able to kill.
For example consider the case of Leopold and Loeb.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Nathan-Leopold.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Richard_Loeb.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb
QuoteBoth Leopold and Loeb were exceptionally intelligent. Leopold was a child prodigy who spoke his first words at the age of four months; he reportedly had an intelligence quotient of 210, though this is not directly comparable to scores on modern IQ tests. Leopold had already completed college, graduating Phi Beta Kappa, and was attending law school at the University of Chicago. He claimed to have been able to speak 27 languages fluently, and was an expert ornithologist. Leopold planned to transfer to Harvard Law School in September after taking a trip to Europe. Loeb, on the other hand, was the youngest graduate in the history of the University of Michigan and planned to enter the University of Chicago Law School after taking some postgraduate courses.
The Leopold, Loeb, and Franks families lived in the affluent Kenwood neighborhood on Chicago's Southside some six miles south of downtown. Loeb's father, Albert, began his career as a lawyer and became the vice president of Sears and Roebuck. Besides owning an impressive mansion in Kenwood, two blocks from the Leopold home, the Loeb family had a summer estate, Castle Farms, in Charlevoix, Michigan.
Leopold and Loeb met at the University of Chicago as teenagers. Leopold agreed to act as Loeb's accomplice.
Beginning with petty theft, the pair committed a series of more and more serious crimes, culminating in the murder.
Leopold was 19 years old at the time of the murder, and Loeb was 18. They believed themselves to be Nietzschean supermen who could commit a "perfect crime" (in this case, a kidnapping and murder). Before the murder, Leopold had written to Loeb: "A superman ... is, on account of certain superior qualities inherent in him, exempted from the ordinary laws which govern men. He is not liable for anything he may do.
given that last statement, if so many excellent ways to kill as many more of the 'sheep' that sportsmotor seems to like describing -----you know, us regular, non violent, everyday people--- were as available to leopold and loeb as they were to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, do you think that their crimes would have been more spectacular?
These two do not fit the same profile as the youngsters I am questioning. These guys were criminals... the murder they committed had an understandable motive(Money).
What was the motives of my above list? revenge? against all society? children?
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 11:47:13 AM
you guys had semi automatic weapons, teflon coated bullets, and 100 bullet magazines, Bridge?
And you could order them from mail order catalogues using a credit card without your parents knowing, the way that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold did?
You must be younger than I thought.
You couldnt do that when I was a kid.
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 11:47:13 AM
you guys had semi automatic weapons, teflon coated bullets, and 100 bullet magazines, Bridge?
And you could order them from mail order catalogues using a credit card without your parents knowing, the way that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold did?
You must be younger than I thought.
You couldnt do that when I was a kid.
I can see you intend to fosus on the weapons. Yes... most hunting weapons ARE semi-automatic. Were teflon coated bullets used in any of these crimes? I dont remember hearing about that. I am also unaware of any 100 bullet magazines used in these crimes.
I also do not believe klebold and dylan bought their weapons on the internet... could be wrong tho...
While there are certainly similarities... the striking difference is... those two killed one person... klebold and dylan planned to kill as many as possible... and did so.
ok... anyway... I have no doubt we will focus on the easy and simplistic "gun issue" while the real cause is much deeper and sinister.
If one were to inquire of the primary determiners of the frequency of shooting massacres such as the one we’ve just witnessed in Connecticut, one might look to at least six attributes or conditions of our society, each as placed upon a curve or graph, noting that as the realities of each approaches the end of the curve which promotes, or causes with greater pressure, these horrible acts, then we might see why and how these acts occur, and perhaps too, what can cause their much needed decrease. Our objective should be to move each attribute from the “danger†or “enabling†end of the curve, to the end which lessens the likelihood of the shootings.
Obviously, as all of these six attributes or conditions are allowed to gravitate to or remain at the danger or enabling end of the curve, we have an accumulating effect, which only insures that the massacres increase. Indeed, as shown below, we’ve seen each curve approach the high or danger end of the curve. Some attributes are not easy to decrease or influence immediately, but some, especially the first three, are within our ability to change, and therefore to lessen the frequency of the shootings. Can anyone add another one or two attribute or condition to the group of curves?
The six attributes or conditions: (my opinions)
FIRST: The ease at which guns can be obtained by individuals. Although the decades have made it more difficult for individuals to obtain guns legally, it must be made much more difficult, so that the frequency of sales and distribution decreases. Currently, the curve might show this attribute to be at the high, or danger end.
SECOND: The control and security of guns by owners must be increased to prevent others, who normally could not purchase them, from obtaining them. This means the establishment of firm rules about locking guns in secure environments, especially in families. This relates also to the thousands of guns stolen from automobiles and homes by thieves. Currently, this attribute too is at the high end of the curve, thereby contributing to the higher probability of increased shootings. Education and enforcement of this factor is the key to its movement to the lower end of its curve.
THIRD: The reduction of guns in the population by aggressive programs for buyback. Obviously there are many thousands of guns which could be removed from circulation, thereby reducing the ease with which others could obtain them by theft, borrowing, or simply, finding them.
FOURTH: The ethical or moral habits as engaged by our political and corporate leadership is shameful. As these habits descend to the bottom of the curve, to gross materialism, greed, and “anything for profit†attitudes and actions, the message to youngsters and adults is one which might promote, allow, or encourage similar behaviors of a lack of responsibility, or disrespect for all adults and rules of society. Positive examples from above can promote by subtle pressures, the enhancement of mental stability, focus, and moral habits of those who are developing, and of those who are engaged in trying to survive in a poor economy. In my opinion, our political and corporate leadership has over recent decades descended to shameful habits of mind and purpose, thereby offering to children and others little or no real leadership which might otherwise bring stability and attitudes of hope and confidence in the future.
FIFTH: Poor or stressful economic times wherein jobs are scarce, and unemployment is high. A quick look at the statistics of mass shootings will allow one to see that a steep climb began in 2007 and 2008, the beginning of stressful economic times, stabilizing to the current uncomfortable rate. Obviously, the more individuals without jobs, without the ability to save their homes, and sometimes without the ability to raise their children, and even to save their marriages, then the more individuals who might, as a last resort, seek relief or revenge by performing some desperate act such as a mass shooting. As the curve representing the economy reaches the high end, the stressful end, it only contributes to the overall pressure for senseless acts to those inclined by other factors to commit them.
SIX: Momentums of these desperate acts might ease the decisions to perform copycat acts. The momentum is difficult to control, given the efficiency of the mass media. The momentum will be the last item to descend to the bottom of its curve.
In any case, the first three factors or attributes can respond to direct action via legislation. The remaining being less controllable. I’m sure I missed a factor or two, but I must get to work.
Summation: As the attributes on this list are brought to their low end of their curves, we will see a considerable decrease in mass shootings.
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 12:27:15 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 15, 2012, 12:21:17 PM
ok... anyway... I have no doubt we will focus on the easy and simplistic "gun issue" while the real cause is much deeper and sinister.
Bridge Troll. Perhaps you can answer the question with a cooler head than our dear Pinky.
Why does anyone in a city need to be able to kill hundreds of other citizens within minutes at will?
I couldnt help but notice the words "in a city". Could you clarify? Also... "need to be able to kill hundreds of other citizens within minutes" seems to be intentionally inflammatory. Are you questioning the number of weapons one should own? The types of weapons? The number of magazines at their disposal? The number of rounds one should be able to own?
From Bryan Fischer, a Christian person, perhaps on the media somewhere, said this about the shootings, via Huff Post.
The question is going to come up, where was God? I though God cared about the little children. God protects the little children. Where was God when all this went down. Here's the bottom line, God is not going to go where he is not wanted.
Now we have spent since 1962-- we're 50 years into this now--we have spent 50 years telling God to get lost, telling God we do not want you in our schools, we don't want to pray to you in our schools, we do not want to pray to your before football games, we don't want to pray to you at graduations, we don't want anybody talking about you in a graduation speech...
In 1962 we kicked prayer out of the schools. In 1963 we kicked God's word out of ours schools. In 1980 we kicked the Ten Commandments out of our schools. We've kicked God out of our public school system. And I think God would say to us, 'Hey, I'll be glad to protect your children, but you've got to invite me back into your world first. I'm not going to go where I'm not wanted. I am a gentlemen.
Is this guy okay? Is he insane?
It always seems to be the liberals who go wacko and start shooting people. Why don't we just ban them and then the problem is solved.
Agreed Stephen. Supported by the first and second condition of my post 70.
FIRST: The ease at which guns can be obtained by individuals. Although the decades have made it more difficult for individuals to obtain guns legally, it must be made much more difficult, so that the frequency of sales and distribution decreases. Currently, the curve might show this attribute to be at the high, or danger end.
SECOND: The control and security of guns by owners must be increased to prevent others, who normally could not purchase them, from obtaining them. This means the establishment of firm rules about locking guns in secure environments, especially in families. This relates also to the thousands of guns stolen from automobiles and homes by thieves. Currently, this attribute too is at the high end of the curve, thereby contributing to the higher probability of increased shootings. Education and enforcement of this factor is the key to its movement to the lower end of its curve.
Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2012, 02:14:00 PM
"Scott said the shooter likely used hollow point bullets, “"The bullet is meant to open up like a flower ... The nose of the bullet and spreads open, creating a devastating wound through tissue and organ that sends the victim into almost immediate shock."
The most common rounds sold to the general public are hollow point rounds. They are less likely to over penetrate the target and ricochet if the target is missed. The majority of police departments also use hollow point rounds.
Quote from: ronchamblin on December 15, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
If one were to inquire of the primary determiners of the frequency of shooting massacres such as the one we’ve just witnessed in Connecticut, one might look to at least six attributes or conditions of our society, each as placed upon a curve or graph, noting that as the realities of each approaches the end of the curve which promotes, or causes with greater pressure, these horrible acts, then we might see why and how these acts occur, and perhaps too, what can cause their much needed decrease. Our objective should be to move each attribute from the “danger†or “enabling†end of the curve, to the end which lessens the likelihood of the shootings.
Obviously, as all of these six attributes or conditions are allowed to gravitate to or remain at the danger or enabling end of the curve, we have an accumulating effect, which only insures that the massacres increase. Indeed, as shown below, we’ve seen each curve approach the high or danger end of the curve. Some attributes are not easy to decrease or influence immediately, but some, especially the first three, are within our ability to change, and therefore to lessen the frequency of the shootings. Can anyone add another one or two attribute or condition to the group of curves?
The six attributes or conditions: (my opinions)
FIRST: The ease at which guns can be obtained by individuals. Although the decades have made it more difficult for individuals to obtain guns legally, it must be made much more difficult, so that the frequency of sales and distribution decreases. Currently, the curve might show this attribute to be at the high, or danger end.
SECOND: The control and security of guns by owners must be increased to prevent others, who normally could not purchase them, from obtaining them. This means the establishment of firm rules about locking guns in secure environments, especially in families. This relates also to the thousands of guns stolen from automobiles and homes by thieves. Currently, this attribute too is at the high end of the curve, thereby contributing to the higher probability of increased shootings. Education and enforcement of this factor is the key to its movement to the lower end of its curve.
THIRD: The reduction of guns in the population by aggressive programs for buyback. Obviously there are many thousands of guns which could be removed from circulation, thereby reducing the ease with which others could obtain them by theft, borrowing, or simply, finding them.
FOURTH: The ethical or moral habits as engaged by our political and corporate leadership is shameful. As these habits descend to the bottom of the curve, to gross materialism, greed, and “anything for profit†attitudes and actions, the message to youngsters and adults is one which might promote, allow, or encourage similar behaviors of a lack of responsibility, or disrespect for all adults and rules of society. Positive examples from above can promote by subtle pressures, the enhancement of mental stability, focus, and moral habits of those who are developing, and of those who are engaged in trying to survive in a poor economy. In my opinion, our political and corporate leadership has over recent decades descended to shameful habits of mind and purpose, thereby offering to children and others little or no real leadership which might otherwise bring stability and attitudes of hope and confidence in the future.
FIFTH: Poor or stressful economic times wherein jobs are scarce, and unemployment is high. A quick look at the statistics of mass shootings will allow one to see that a steep climb began in 2007 and 2008, the beginning of stressful economic times, stabilizing to the current uncomfortable rate. Obviously, the more individuals without jobs, without the ability to save their homes, and sometimes without the ability to raise their children, and even to save their marriages, then the more individuals who might, as a last resort, seek relief or revenge by performing some desperate act such as a mass shooting. As the curve representing the economy reaches the high end, the stressful end, it only contributes to the overall pressure for senseless acts to those inclined by other factors to commit them.
SIX: Momentums of these desperate acts might ease the decisions to perform copycat acts. The momentum is difficult to control, given the efficiency of the mass media. The momentum will be the last item to descend to the bottom of its curve.
In any case, the first three factors or attributes can respond to direct action via legislation. The remaining being less controllable. I’m sure I missed a factor or two, but I must get to work.
Summation: As the attributes on this list are brought to their low end of their curves, we will see a considerable decrease in mass shootings.
You failed to mention anything about the piss poor parenting by too many parents today or perhaps the society being desensitized to violence through mass media's glorification of it.
There have always been guns in the US and it is more difficult for a law abiding citizen to obtain one now than it was in the 50's and 60's.
Quote from: carpnter on December 15, 2012, 03:09:47 PM
Quote from: ronchamblin on December 15, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
If one were to inquire of the primary determiners of the frequency of shooting massacres such as the one we’ve just witnessed in Connecticut, one might look to at least six attributes or conditions of our society, each as placed upon a curve or graph, noting that as the realities of each approaches the end of the curve which promotes, or causes with greater pressure, these horrible acts, then we might see why and how these acts occur, and perhaps too, what can cause their much needed decrease. Our objective should be to move each attribute from the “danger†or “enabling†end of the curve, to the end which lessens the likelihood of the shootings.
Obviously, as all of these six attributes or conditions are allowed to gravitate to or remain at the danger or enabling end of the curve, we have an accumulating effect, which only insures that the massacres increase. Indeed, as shown below, we’ve seen each curve approach the high or danger end of the curve. Some attributes are not easy to decrease or influence immediately, but some, especially the first three, are within our ability to change, and therefore to lessen the frequency of the shootings. Can anyone add another one or two attribute or condition to the group of curves?
The six attributes or conditions: (my opinions)
FIRST: The ease at which guns can be obtained by individuals. Although the decades have made it more difficult for individuals to obtain guns legally, it must be made much more difficult, so that the frequency of sales and distribution decreases. Currently, the curve might show this attribute to be at the high, or danger end.
SECOND: The control and security of guns by owners must be increased to prevent others, who normally could not purchase them, from obtaining them. This means the establishment of firm rules about locking guns in secure environments, especially in families. This relates also to the thousands of guns stolen from automobiles and homes by thieves. Currently, this attribute too is at the high end of the curve, thereby contributing to the higher probability of increased shootings. Education and enforcement of this factor is the key to its movement to the lower end of its curve.
THIRD: The reduction of guns in the population by aggressive programs for buyback. Obviously there are many thousands of guns which could be removed from circulation, thereby reducing the ease with which others could obtain them by theft, borrowing, or simply, finding them.
FOURTH: The ethical or moral habits as engaged by our political and corporate leadership is shameful. As these habits descend to the bottom of the curve, to gross materialism, greed, and “anything for profit†attitudes and actions, the message to youngsters and adults is one which might promote, allow, or encourage similar behaviors of a lack of responsibility, or disrespect for all adults and rules of society. Positive examples from above can promote by subtle pressures, the enhancement of mental stability, focus, and moral habits of those who are developing, and of those who are engaged in trying to survive in a poor economy. In my opinion, our political and corporate leadership has over recent decades descended to shameful habits of mind and purpose, thereby offering to children and others little or no real leadership which might otherwise bring stability and attitudes of hope and confidence in the future.
FIFTH: Poor or stressful economic times wherein jobs are scarce, and unemployment is high. A quick look at the statistics of mass shootings will allow one to see that a steep climb began in 2007 and 2008, the beginning of stressful economic times, stabilizing to the current uncomfortable rate. Obviously, the more individuals without jobs, without the ability to save their homes, and sometimes without the ability to raise their children, and even to save their marriages, then the more individuals who might, as a last resort, seek relief or revenge by performing some desperate act such as a mass shooting. As the curve representing the economy reaches the high end, the stressful end, it only contributes to the overall pressure for senseless acts to those inclined by other factors to commit them.
SIX: Momentums of these desperate acts might ease the decisions to perform copycat acts. The momentum is difficult to control, given the efficiency of the mass media. The momentum will be the last item to descend to the bottom of its curve.
In any case, the first three factors or attributes can respond to direct action via legislation. The remaining being less controllable. I’m sure I missed a factor or two, but I must get to work.
Summation: As the attributes on this list are brought to their low end of their curves, we will see a considerable decrease in mass shootings.
You failed to mention anything about the piss poor parenting by too many parents today or perhaps the society being desensitized to violence through mass media's glorification of it.
There have always been guns in the US and it is more difficult for a law abiding citizen to obtain one now than it was in the 50's and 60's.
Is that true? I wonder (honestly) when considering the cost of weapons today vs then and the amount of disposable income people have today vs then.
I think that modern video games, particularly the enormously popular "first person shooter" games like "Call Of Duty" and "Modern Warfare" play a huge role in influencing some of these kids. We now have kids immersed in incredibly realistic violence for hours a day, where violence is rewarded and encouraged, and real consequence doesn't exist. It's difficult to not see the behavior modeled in these games playing out in these mass-shootings. I'll bet the farm that a lot of these little knucklehead shooters were huge gamers.
(One of my sons is 13, and has a PS3. We have a "no shooting humans in video games rule" in our house; aliens, robots, asteroids are all fair game, but nothing that models pointing a gun at another human.)
Lol- do you fog up your screen with all that hot air?
Yes Stephen, I separate the action from the tool. Guns have been in our society for a long time, but these rampages are new. What changed? Perhaps it's the hours of explicit and sensationalized violence that gets programmed into these little screwheads?? Are you really discounting the obvious programming effect???
"Early warning signs began to surface in 1996, when Eric Harris first created a private website on America Online. Harris had initially created the site to host gaming levels of the video game Doom "
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#section_1
"A former classmate, Breanna Hath, said Mr Holmes was extremely quiet, "really sweet, shy" and "didn't have any creepy vibe about him at all".
"There were no real girls he was involved with," she told the Washington Post. "It seemed he was really into a video game group that hung out together."
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18937513
Quote from: carpnter on December 15, 2012, 03:09:47 PM
Quote from: ronchamblin on December 15, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
If one were to inquire of the primary determiners of the frequency of shooting massacres such as the one we’ve just witnessed in Connecticut, one might look to at least six attributes or conditions of our society, each as placed upon a curve or graph, noting that as the realities of each approaches the end of the curve which promotes, or causes with greater pressure, these horrible acts, then we might see why and how these acts occur, and perhaps too, what can cause their much needed decrease. Our objective should be to move each attribute from the “danger” or “enabling” end of the curve, to the end which lessens the likelihood of the shootings.
Obviously, as all of these six attributes or conditions are allowed to gravitate to or remain at the danger or enabling end of the curve, we have an accumulating effect, which only insures that the massacres increase. Indeed, as shown below, we’ve seen each curve approach the high or danger end of the curve. Some attributes are not easy to decrease or influence immediately, but some, especially the first three, are within our ability to change, and therefore to lessen the frequency of the shootings. Can anyone add another one or two attribute or condition to the group of curves?
The six attributes or conditions: (my opinions)
FIRST: The ease at which guns can be obtained by individuals. Although the decades have made it more difficult for individuals to obtain guns legally, it must be made much more difficult, so that the frequency of sales and distribution decreases. Currently, the curve might show this attribute to be at the high, or danger end.
SECOND: The control and security of guns by owners must be increased to prevent others, who normally could not purchase them, from obtaining them. This means the establishment of firm rules about locking guns in secure environments, especially in families. This relates also to the thousands of guns stolen from automobiles and homes by thieves. Currently, this attribute too is at the high end of the curve, thereby contributing to the higher probability of increased shootings. Education and enforcement of this factor is the key to its movement to the lower end of its curve.
THIRD: The reduction of guns in the population by aggressive programs for buyback. Obviously there are many thousands of guns which could be removed from circulation, thereby reducing the ease with which others could obtain them by theft, borrowing, or simply, finding them.
FOURTH: The ethical or moral habits as engaged by our political and corporate leadership is shameful. As these habits descend to the bottom of the curve, to gross materialism, greed, and “anything for profit” attitudes and actions, the message to youngsters and adults is one which might promote, allow, or encourage similar behaviors of a lack of responsibility, or disrespect for all adults and rules of society. Positive examples from above can promote by subtle pressures, the enhancement of mental stability, focus, and moral habits of those who are developing, and of those who are engaged in trying to survive in a poor economy. In my opinion, our political and corporate leadership has over recent decades descended to shameful habits of mind and purpose, thereby offering to children and others little or no real leadership which might otherwise bring stability and attitudes of hope and confidence in the future.
FIFTH: Poor or stressful economic times wherein jobs are scarce, and unemployment is high. A quick look at the statistics of mass shootings will allow one to see that a steep climb began in 2007 and 2008, the beginning of stressful economic times, stabilizing to the current uncomfortable rate. Obviously, the more individuals without jobs, without the ability to save their homes, and sometimes without the ability to raise their children, and even to save their marriages, then the more individuals who might, as a last resort, seek relief or revenge by performing some desperate act such as a mass shooting. As the curve representing the economy reaches the high end, the stressful end, it only contributes to the overall pressure for senseless acts to those inclined by other factors to commit them.
SIX: Momentums of these desperate acts might ease the decisions to perform copycat acts. The momentum is difficult to control, given the efficiency of the mass media. The momentum will be the last item to descend to the bottom of its curve.
In any case, the first three factors or attributes can respond to direct action via legislation. The remaining being less controllable. I’m sure I missed a factor or two, but I must get to work.
Summation: As the attributes on this list are brought to their low end of their curves, we will see a considerable decrease in mass shootings.
You failed to mention anything about the piss poor parenting by too many parents today or perhaps the society being desensitized to violence through mass media's glorification of it.
There have always been guns in the US and it is more difficult for a law abiding citizen to obtain one now than it was in the 50's and 60's.
I knew there was at least a seventh factor which I had forgotten while doing my post. And you've hit it right on carpnter. The "mass media", in films and television. So.... one might suggest that the degree to which the media continues to glorify the killings and shootings in films and television certainly has the effect of placing the killing options in the minds of anyone with a grudge or a psychological problem. This aspect too, should be brought to the good end of its curve by some kind of influence upon the media to back off a little, or a lot, on the blood and guts and shootings. After all, the media is, in its efforts to make the movies exciting, exaggerating the violence and the shooting events; that is, as compared to what actually exists in our society. And this action unfortunately inclines more use of violence and shootings in real life.
"He was also a technical whizz kid, keen on computers and video games, and part of a group who would meet up for computer programming get-togethers."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9747682/Connecticut-school-shooting-Troubled-life-of-Adam-Lanza-a-fiercely-intelligent-killer.html
Newtown, Connecticut (CNN) -- Authorities have released the names of those killed during the Connecticut school massacre. Here is a list of the victims and their ages, as provided by state police. This list includes full names of children only when parents have spoken publicly:
Charlotte, 6
Daniel, 7
Rachel Davino, 29
Olivia, 6
Josephine, 7
Ana, 6
Dylan, 6
Dawn Hocksprung, 47
Madeleine, 6
Catherine, 6
Chase, 7
Jesse, 6
James, 6
Grace, 7
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
Emilie Parker, 6
Jack, 6
Noah, 6
Caroline, 6
Jessica, 6
Avielle, 6
Lauren Russeau, 30
Mary Sherlach, 56
Victoria Soto, 27
Benjamin, 6
Allison, 6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassie_Bernall
Some good can come from this through the Cassie Bernall Foundation. A teen who died in the shootings at Columbine HS.
For more information, please contact the Cassie Bernall Foundation at the following address:
The Cassie Bernall Foundation
P.O. Box 270054
Littleton, CO 80127-0001
"Now I have given up on everything else--I found it to be the only way to know Christ and to experience the mighty power that brought Him to life again, and to find out what it really means to suffer and to die with Him. So, whatever it takes, I will be one who lives in the fresh newness of life of those who are alive from the dead."
(Phil. 3:10-11 TLB)
Scripture written on a scrap of paper found in Cassie's room after her death.
I am sure there are other foundations that provide support for these kinds of events to support families. Consider a gift to them this Christmas to help those who are suffering from their loss.
A beautiful and gracious man speaks to the loss of his little girl. I have yet to find the full video of this lovely man so that you can yourselves see and hear the truth of his words and the gentleness of his spirit and that of his beloved child. I hope you will look for it and take the time to watch. You will be moved and inspired.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/connecticut-school-shooting-dads-emotional-1492478
The shooters family is deeply grieved by this tragedy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/peter-lanza-statement-adam-lanza_n_2308744.html
Well well well would you look at this thread & all the know it alls in it lol. You guys act all hurt & sad about this, ttry to figure out who to blame, what to blame, how to blame. Change is to blame. This is not the first time & will NOT be the last people. Get used to it. Oh yes people get used to it. Some of you think your so called progressive views will help society, some of you people think your self rightous agenda to give progress to one set of people does not take away from another set of people. No one has acknowledge the fact to all these killing dudes, KILLING IS FUN, they get a rush or a high from it. Its a power driven ego driven feeling to have the last word. Something many of the idiots that post here have that same addiction to, having the last word. People have a need to have the last word and or able to do whatever it takes to have the last word. I'm not saddened by this news at all. Children were killed because it was a reaction to a reaction to an original action. So when do people stop? Keep getting that last word in people......
Of course we are all saddened by this tragedy, but no matter what we all say about this thing, there will always be mentally unbalanced individuals (nuts) around who, by some mental aberration, are able to perform mass killings.
That is why the only thing anyone can do is get the legislators and the gun nuts off their asses and free of their delusions, and produce good legislation so that the guns are not so easily obtained, so that buybacks become the norm, so the those owning guns, such as the mother who was killed by her own son, will lock up and control access to their guns, and so that the media does not promote the “killing†pastime.
To have millions of guns around the environments, easily available to most anyone, is proving to be a major enabling factor to allow the mentally deranged to kill at will. All guns cannot be eliminated. But logic says that a gross reduction in guns, and greater control of existing guns, will go a long way in reducing the ability of mentally deficient individuals to mass kill.
For example, if the recent killer’s mother had not made available her guns to this obviously mentally warped youngster, he probably would not have been able to kill with such efficiency. And perhaps the absence of readily available guns to him would have provided more time for possible emergence to a normal mental state, and thus to a normal and productive life.
The Texas Republican, Gohmert, who recently suggested that more guns should be out in the wild so that everyone can carry a gun to protect themselves and others, is a suggestion that would only increase the problem. It seems to me that the more guns in the environment, then there is greater ease to obtain them by anyone who desires to do so, either by theft, borrowing, or purchasing. Total elimination cannot be achieved. But to have so many guns in the population is foolish, and can be targeted as a major contributor to the increase in mass killings over recent decades. Once again, our elected officials, as shown by this Texas Republican, show their capacity to think to levels approaching idiocy. If things were left to idiots like this Texas type, they would recommend sprinkling guns all over the landscape so that anyone could grab one immediately, and at any time, to defend themselves.
I do not plan on getting used to it.
There was another shooting spree in Portland last week.
http://m.thenational.ae/news/world/americas/us-gun-debate-drags-on-as-resignation-sets-in
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on December 15, 2012, 10:46:09 PM
The shooters family is deeply grieved by this tragedy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/peter-lanza-statement-adam-lanza_n_2308744.html
Lanza was a victim, too.
Yutawginboutadam orisma ben?
_... . _. ?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/december-web-only/media-and-massacre.html?paging=off (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/december-web-only/media-and-massacre.html?paging=off)
The voices followed me through the airport yesterday afternoon, their insistent tones blaring as loudly as the glaring screens that have colonized nearly every public place in American life. They chased after me offering insider knowledge: "The autopsy reports on Adam Lanza and his mother are providing some gruesome new details … "
I scurried out of sight and hearing of whatever gruesomeness was about to be unveiled. They quoted press releases from lobbying groups: "… prepared to make meaningful contributions to make sure this never happens again.…" I pondered how many PR professionals had polished that artfully vague phraseâ€""meaningful contributions"â€"and whether they truly believed that such a travesty would never happen again, no matter how meaningful their client's contributions.
No, it will happen again.
I did not actually curse in the televisions' direction until I heard them serve up the most heinous possible version of disaster theologyâ€"this, offered in all strident sincerity to best explain the fates of the victims to one's own children: "God needed some wonderful new angels. He asked for them, and he got them."
Not a single person in that airport was assisted in any way by these ghastly disclosures, pat press releases, and offensive atheologies. But this is the ironclad logic of continuous broadcasting: Broadcasting must be continuous. Someone must always be saying something even when there is nothing new to say. The most basic lesson for those who would comfort the victims of tragedy is that the first, best response to tragedy is presence, and often the best form of presence is silence. The grieving, the sick, and the dying sometimes need our words, sometimes need our touch, but almost always they need our presence. And there is no contradiction between presence and silence in the embodied life for which we were all created, to which we are all called, into which God himself entered. Bodies can be present without a word. That is the beauty of bodies.
Mediated communication, on the other handâ€"any form of communication that places something "in the middle," between personsâ€"cannot abide silence. Radio hates dead air. Television hates sound without movement. As Garrison Keillor discovered when his perfect radio show became a mediocre television show, the camera cannot sit still. An audience of a thousand can sit utterly quiet as a single person plays an acoustic guitar, Keillor said ruefully, but the camera cannotâ€"it must swoop and pan and zoom. Media cannot rest.
And while there was a time when you could count the number of broadcasters on one hand, we are all broadcasters now. A tragedy like the Newtown massacre becomes not just a media event, but also a social media event. As the journalist Alex Massie pointed out in his trenchant essay this week, silence is not an option in social media. Not to tweet or post or blog is not to be silently presentâ€"it is to be mutely absent. He suggested, fully aware of the futility of his suggestion, that perhaps we all could have simply posted one-word tweets on Friday, using the hashtag #silent, and left it at that. But we didn't, nor are we likely to during the next tragedy. #silent will never be a trending topic on Twitter.
All that any of us who do not live in Newtown, Connecticut, truly needed to knowâ€"possibly more than we needed to knowâ€"appeared in a 12-word news alert on my phone Friday afternoon. Almost everything else, I believe, was a distraction from the only thing that we who are not first responders, pastors, or parents in that community needed to do at that moment: to pray, which is to say, to put ourselves at the mercy of God and hold those who harmed and those who were harmed before the mercy of God.
Instead, we tweeted, we compulsively reloaded the live feed on The New York Times, we opened multiple browser windows, we turned on NPR. (At least that is what I did for a while that grim afternoon, in spite of myself.) All this accomplished, for the great majority of us, was to substitute information for contemplation, the illusion of engagement for prayer. I did not really need to know more about what happened behind those 12 awful words in order to pray. I needed to contemplate just those words, just those most brutal facts.
The quest for more talk, more images, more footage (none of which would ever satisfy our lust for understanding, no matter how graphic police and producers allowed them to become) is rarely about the quest to more deeply contemplate the brokenness of the worldâ€"it is the quest to not contemplate it. Because if we were simply to contemplate those 12 words, we would be brought all too soon to the terrifying precipice of our own inadequacy, our own vulnerability and dependence, and even (so the saints testify) our own culpability, our nearness in spirit to even the most deranged and destructive.
Mind you, silence is not the only kind of presence Christians have to offer a world gone wrong and gone mad. We also bear witness to the presence of the Word made flesh, the Word who entered into this story, who did not send a message but became a baby. And that Word does indeed prompt our wordsâ€"words not of endless rehearsal of "details" or promises we cannot keep, but words of truth, hope, and life. This is the only way I know how to participate in our mediated, self-medicated world of too much information and too little contemplation: to keep silent until we have something true to say.
Terrible things happen every day. One day, one will probably happen to you, if it has not already happened. Surely it is our suppressed awareness that tragedy is coming our way, too, our unwillingness to be silent and contemplate our own need for mercy, that turns compassion into compulsion, turns our God-breathed impulse to stop for the wounded traveler into the gawking slowdown on the other side of the highway.
So for those of us who are spared their direct blows, this terrible thing, and the next terrible thing to come, are opportunities to learn what it will be almost too late to learn when death is at our own door. How to be silent, how to be truly present, and then how to speak. How to hear what the true mediators always say when they bring real news to a broken world: "Be not afraid."
I seldom agree with Charles Schumer... but this time I am on the same page... I bet most of you are too.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-schumer-after-newtown-pursue-a-middle-ground-on-gun-limits/2012/12/19/69e36a98-4964-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_story.html
QuoteA middle ground on gun limits
By Charles E. Schumer,
Published: December 19
Charles E. Schumer, a Democrat, represents New York in the Senate.
Since the massacre at Connecticut’s Sandy Hook Elementary School, many are wondering whether this tragedy might finally provoke action on guns.
The answer is, it could. The reason may surprise gun-control activists.
A post-Newtown examination of our gun laws would be the country’s first such effort since the Supreme Court’s 2008 decision in D.C. v. Heller, which struck down the District’s handgun ban and affirmed an individual’s constitutional right to bear arms. The case, decided by the court’s conservative bloc, was originally viewed as a setback for advocates of gun safety. But embracing the ruling could actually create a new paradigm for gun control.
The gun debate of the past two decades has devolved into a permanent tug-of-war between the National Rifle Association (NRA) and advocates of gun safety. One side has viewed the Second Amendment as absolute; the other has tried to pretend that it doesn’t exist. The result is a failure to find any consensus, even as one mass shooting after another underscores the need for sensible reform.
Heller told the two sides that they were each only half-right: The right to bear arms is constitutionally guaranteed, but reasonable limitations are allowed.
The first part is something many gun-control advocates did not wish to hear, but it was a needed dose of reality. Before Heller, the goal of some gun-control activists was an outright ban on handguns. Heller removes that possibility for good. Progressives should move on and work within the ruling. This means no longer harboring ideas of a future liberal majority on the court someday overturning Heller. It also means that states and localities should abide by the spirit of the ruling, not just its letter, and not seek to impose undue burdens upon law-abiding citizens seeking to exercise their Second Amendment rights.
The truth is, it was bad strategy to ever deny an individual right to bear arms and, similarly, the special place guns hold in our culture. That mentality alienated potential allies in the ideological middle of the gun debate â€" something I learned three years ago when my friend Ben Nelson invited me to Nebraska for my first hunting trip. I returned with true respect for how, in many parts of America, gun ownership is not just a constitutional right but a way of life. It has the same meaning in Nebraska that playground basketball did for me in my Brooklyn neighborhood. Heller understands that reality.
In the current state of play, moderate gun owners have become convinced by the NRA and other, even more radical gun organizations such as Gun Owners of America that the goal of all gun-safety advocates is to take away their guns. These owners view even the most reasonable gun-safety proposals with suspicion, fearing a slippery slope to a ban on firearms. This paranoia is what gives the gun lobby its power.
It wasn’t always this way. After the assassinations of leaders like Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. in the late 1960s, the nation enacted sweeping gun-safety laws â€" and the NRA did not stand in the way.
The NRA was less political in that era and more focused on providing practical assistance to its members, much like AAA does today for automobile owners. But in the 1980s, the group became more militant. Part of this was driven by new leadership, which sought to expand the group’s membership rolls and collect more dues.
But this radicalization was also abetted by those who really were seeking an outright ban on guns.
Now that Heller has ruled out the possibility of anyone ever taking away their weapons, gun owners should be more open to some reasonable limitations. No individual right is absolute, after all. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, no one has a right to falsely shout “Fire!†in a crowded theater, nor to traffic in child pornography. Likewise, the Second Amendment’s right to bear arms also comes with limits.
We need to refine those limits in the wake of what happened in Newtown.
The guns issue will remain thorny, but Heller points the way toward a possible compromise, under a new paradigm. All of us â€" especially progressives â€" should embrace it.
How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown? http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html?wpisrc=most_viral
Not having seen the quote from Bill above until now, all I can say is :
"Bill, you have shit for brains."