Metro Jacksonville

Oh man, I hope this is true. I'd really like to have an MLS team, although the article leads the reader to believe that it would most likely be a minor league team.

Quote
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400744/matt-soergel/2012-12-07/professional-soccer-returning-jacksonville-possibility

Could a professional soccer team return to Jacksonville? Mayor Alvin Brown Friday dropped broad hints that it’s a possibility.

“There’s a lot of interest. All I can say is, there’s a lot of interest,” he said. “Stay tuned.”

Brown brought the topic up during an interview on an unrelated matter, smiling as he discussed the possibility. While campaigning for mayor, he said he’d like to bring an NBA team to the city, but Friday he said a soccer team is more likely to come first.

“Sooner than later?” he said. “Yes. My sense is that we’ll sooner have a soccer team than an NBA team. You just put more than 40,000 people in the stands?”

Brown was referring to the success in May of the U.S. national team’s 5-1 victory over Scotland at Everbank Field, where the turnout of 44,438 surprised soccer officials. It shattered a state record for an international friendly match and it far surpassed a crowd of 23,971 in Tampa the next month for a U.S. game against Antigua & Barbuda.

That certainly puts Jacksonville in the running for at least more national team games.

The Tea Men of the long-defunct North American Soccer League put Jacksonville on the soccer map in the early 1980s.

Major League Soccer, the top professional league in the country, has been expanding in recent years and has said it wants to continue to do so. But it’s made clear that soccer-specific stadiums, smaller than cavernous professional football stadiums, are needed for any new team.

When told that, Brown smiled confidently. He wouldn’t say, however, whether the city is pursuing an MLS team just yet.

“We may start with a minor-league team, then move up,” he said.

The MLS has already said it wants to put a second team in the New York market, and has set 2016 as a goal for that team’s first game.

“This is our priority in terms of our next expansion, which will be our 20th team,” MLS president Mark Abbott said in a story on the league’s website. “We haven’t made a determination about the timeline beyond that.”

There’s not a single team in the Southeast;  the closest team is more than 700 miles away in Washington, D.C.

Last month, league commissioner Don Garber addressed expansion to the South, fielding questions before the MLS championship game about possible teams in Atlanta, Orlando and Miami. Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank was mentioned as a possible owner in that city, while a minor-league team in Orlando is bidding to join the majors.

The league once had teams in Tampa Bay and Miami, though each folded after the 2001 season.

Submitted by Matt Soergel on December 7, 2012 - 12:13pm

MLS isn't going to come down here.  Seasons runs into college football, much less the summer months.  Plus, they think the next team is going to be a NY one and the expansion fee is going to be $100 million.

A team in the NASL or USL Pro is much more likely.

My family would enjoy more soccer here but this is not the kind of announcements I really want to hear from this mayor.  I would rather we find out what the next level is he has taken us to, where are the promised jobs, why is there no deal on the SMG issues, why is the pension situation going from bad to worse etc.  Little issues like these.



Diane

“We may start with a minor-league team, then move up,” he said.

I'd love an MLS team, but the above statement doesn't exactly sound like its anywhere close to happening. I'm sure MLS would like to see a few years of sustained attendance success in the minors before even considering us as an expansion team.

Jax has been unable to support and A League team in the past.  Portland and Seattle who are new to MLS outdrew many MLS teams for several years.

We're not on the MLS radar (yet). If and when they expand into the Southeast the smart money's on Orlando; they already have a hugely successful minor league club, as well as an ownership group and a plan to build a soccer-specific stadium.

We'd kill it in the upper-tier minor leagues, though. From what I understand the FC Jax team draws pretty well considering they're all amateur. I'd imagine a team that had a bit of a marketing budget would really take off. Some of those teams in the USL Pro and NASL do pretty well for themselves.

If things go right I could see us with an MLS team in the future.

MLS will not come here.  Have a lot of good memories of the tea men.  Think me and my dad were one of the few season ticket holders.  if jax could get a minor league team your be great, not sure where they would play though

Civil, my wife and I were sitting in the stands probably just a few yards from you! Hey and we got to see the great Pelé up close and personal!

I have a different take, I think we'd do quite well with major league Futball, but Everbank Field is NOT the place for the team. You will recall the time when we were packing 15,000-18,000 a game for the Tea Men? Remember they had huge problems with the national media, particularily Sports Illustrated (which I have NEVER purchased since) which openly stated in an article about the flagging league, "In desperation the league has shown it has a sense of humor - they're moving the New England Tea Men to Jacksonville, Florida...) That article went downhill from there and frankly the city should have forced a retraction or apology. The league was failing, the LOS ANGELES franchise (attn: NFL LOS ANGELES Rams, LOS ANGELES Raiders, or LOS ANGELES JAGUARS prophets) at one point was packing in 2,000 people into the Los Angles Memorial Coliseum which seated a tad over 100,000 at that time (it's only 92,516 today). Finally with no star power in Jacksonville short of Peter Simonini, and Lipton Corporation bailing out on the financial end we crashed... but then so did the rest of the league.



I'm thinking (and have for years) that Jacksonville needs a smaller venue stadium somewhere in downtown (LaVilla? OR JEA property?) Taking a page from Daytona Beaches successful smaller stadium a Jacksonville stadium seating 15,000-20,000 would do wonders for our sports promotion. JU, UNF, as well as major leagues in minor US Sports such as Futball, and minor league teams, not to mention things like regional small school championships, ranging from High School to College and Universities. 

google Memorial Stadium in Charlotte.

Ock, JU is proposing a smaller venue on their campus:

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/slideshows-wide/slide_JUStadium5.jpg)

QuoteThe football and lacrosse stadium will seat 4,500 and be available for outdoor track events. The stadium also will have a media area and concession stands. The first phase of the stadium costs $4.2 million. Officials said they don’t know how much the second and third phase will cost.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/sports/college/2012-11-30/story/jacksonville-university-plans-new-football-stadium-athletics#ixzz2ER5MYEoC

Quote from: fsquid on December 07, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
MLS isn't going to come down here.  Seasons runs into college football, much less the summer months.  Plus, they think the next team is going to be a NY one and the expansion fee is going to be $100 million.

Erring on the side of conservatism, one would be wise to avoid underestimating the persuasiveness, power, means, standing and knowledge of a growing and motivated party who are not easily found, tracked, and traced on paper or electronically.

Duval may have more to offer than geography.

In all fairness, both of those stadiums are inappropriate for soccer. Yes, you could fit a soccer pitch on them, but the experience of watching a soccer match on them would be pretty poor. They would do as a compromise, I suppose, but they might do more harm than good - they are both surrounded by running tracks and that separates the crowd from the pitch, leading to a boring, disconnected match experience.

One of the central tenets of MLS expansion (which I know we're not discussing Jax getting an MLS franchise here), is the building of soccer-specific stadiums. And that's because people take to the game better when they watch it in a venue that is fit for purpose. The atmosphere is right and it seems much more immediate when it's happening right in front of you. Teams that play in football stadiums are almost doomed to failure (bit of an overstatement).

Of course, the fans have a lot do with it as well - the Seattle Sounders average over 38,000 fans per match at CenturyLink field (which is a football stadium) and the atmosphere there is pretty amazing for an MLS game (from what I've seen on TV, that is).

FC Dallas's stadium hosts football games to make additional revenue, but it was built as a soccer field first.

Soccer is sexy.

Something (league/venue) similar to where the Charleston Battery play could suffice - this looks in line with JU's proposed stadium as well.

(http://visitberkeleycounty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/chasbattery2-e1300629967959.jpg)

I'd like to see the city build a soccer-specific (or soccer focused) stadium in the urban core. Such a thing could be used not only for 2nd-level pro soccer, but also be remarked for things like football, lacrosse, and rugby. I could see it being used for marquee high school and club games in all those sports. Perhaps we could bring back those high school football rivalry games that used to be played at the Gator Bowl, as is done with baseball at the Baseball Grounds. However it's unlikely it would ever be used by JU or UNF for any sports.

Speaking of which, pro soccer could alternately be played at our stadium at UNF. It's a great venue, though scheduling could be tricky. JU also has a nice soccer facility, but it may be a bit small for a pro soccer crowd.

Yeah, that looks like a good one. Small, but it fits the brief!

I think a pro team in Jax would be a great development - it may well be that the current PDL team (is it the Jax Destroyers?) might be the one to eventually be "promoted" or whatever to a higher league (not to MLS, but something along the lines of how the Sounders and Timbers moved up to the MLS - more or less - from lower leagues).

I was reading a bit about soccer in Jax on Wikipedia earlier and was surprised to see that a couple of teams have entries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch%27s_Irish_Pub_F.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch%27s_Irish_Pub_F.C.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_United (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_United)

Apparently both clubs have been somewhat successful. It appears Jacksonville United won the NPSL playoffs, which I had no idea of. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mentioned on the forum, but it was totally news to me!

Quote from: Adam W on December 08, 2012, 03:16:03 AM
In all fairness, both of those stadiums are inappropriate for soccer. Yes, you could fit a soccer pitch on them, but the experience of watching a soccer match on them would be pretty poor. They would do as a compromise, I suppose, but they might do more harm than good - they are both surrounded by running tracks and that separates the crowd from the pitch, leading to a boring, disconnected match experience.

WTF? Sorry Adam, but WHO said we wanted to duplicate either of those stadiums? I simply said taking a page from Daytona Beaches very successful municipal stadium we could... etc... etc...  Nowhere did either Lakelander or myself suggest we build a stadium exactly like those, we merely posted a photo to give folks an idea of what we're talking about.

Lakelander, I'm not sure 4,000 or so is enough for a city of 1.4 million, I wonder if the next phases will bring it up to 15,000-20,000? This considering that back in the 80's we regularly put over 15,000 in the stands for 'Futball.'

Sorry, Ock, but I didn't mean to imply that you did. I was just making a point of keeping a soccer-specific stadium clearly in focus.

I do, however, think you are overestimating the numbers for Tea Men attendance. We may have had a few games when we managed 15k in attendance (I know the opener was a BIG game in terms of turnout), but I used to go to games regularly and we were lucky to manage 5 - 10K:

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062506/spo_3578632.shtml (http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062506/spo_3578632.shtml)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 08, 2012, 11:10:58 AM

Quote from: Adam W on December 08, 2012, 03:16:03 AM
In all fairness, both of those stadiums are inappropriate for soccer. Yes, you could fit a soccer pitch on them, but the experience of watching a soccer match on them would be pretty poor. They would do as a compromise, I suppose, but they might do more harm than good - they are both surrounded by running tracks and that separates the crowd from the pitch, leading to a boring, disconnected match experience.

WTF? Sorry Adam, but WHO said we wanted to duplicate either of those stadiums? I simply said taking a page from Daytona Beaches very successful municipal stadium we could... etc... etc...  Nowhere did either Lakelander or myself suggest we build a stadium exactly like those, we merely posted a photo to give folks an idea of what we're talking about.

Lakelander, I'm not sure 4,000 or so is enough for a city of 1.4 million, I wonder if the next phases will bring it up to 15,000-20,000? This considering that back in the 80's we regularly put over 15,000 in the stands for 'Futball.'

Sorry Ock, we only put 15000 in the stands a couple of times, think we averaged around 8000 or so

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 08, 2012, 11:10:58 AM
Lakelander, I'm not sure 4,000 or so is enough for a city of 1.4 million, I wonder if the next phases will bring it up to 15,000-20,000? This considering that back in the 80's we regularly put over 15,000 in the stands for 'Futball.'

to be fair, its a metro area of 1.4 million....and I really don't see to many people coming up from Flagler/Putnam for soccer matches

Quote from: fsquid on December 08, 2012, 08:12:15 AM
FC Dallas's stadium hosts football games to make additional revenue, but it was built as a soccer field first.

They added a stage at one end to host concerts... Columbus did the same as well.

Quote from: danno on December 08, 2012, 02:54:08 PM

Quote from: fsquid on December 08, 2012, 08:12:15 AM
FC Dallas's stadium hosts football games to make additional revenue, but it was built as a soccer field first.

They added a stage at one end to host concerts... Columbus did the same as well.

That's a really good idea. Get increased functionality from the place!

Quote from: blizz01 on December 08, 2012, 08:41:32 AM
Something (league/venue) similar to where the Charleston Battery play could suffice - this looks in line with JU's proposed stadium as well.

(http://visitberkeleycounty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/chasbattery2-e1300629967959.jpg)

It occurred to me later, after looking at this picture, how a picture is worth a thousand words. Or parking spaces:
(http://i.imgur.com/E68sC.jpg)

It's amazing the difference in parking spaces for the two different stadiums. White Hart Lane (home of Tottenham Hotspur FC) only has a handful right in the very front - and they aren't for the general public, yet the stadium has a capacity 7X that of Blackbaud Stadium (according to Wikipedia). I guess that goes to show you the impact of decent local transport links - and there's not even a Tube station near White Hart Lane!

there is a train though that stops right there.  SEven Sisters tube station didn't seem very far either though maybe 20 minute walk?

Quote from: fsquid on December 09, 2012, 12:41:30 PM
there is a train though that stops right there.  SEven Sisters tube station didn't seem very far either though maybe 20 minute walk?

Yeah, there is the train that stops at White Hart Lane station over the road. Seven Sisters Underground station is almost 1.5 miles away (though you can take a bus). Tottenham Hale Underground station is about as far, too - and there is a train station there as well.

There's been talk of extending the Victoria line to serve the stadium, though it's unlikely it will happen. But even though the transport connections aren't stellar compared to some of the other major football stadiums in the city (Arsenal, for example, is served by four Underground stations, two rail stations and the usual compliment of bus routes) - it's still striking to see how it's possible to sell out a stadium weekly without providing parking. Transport links really do make a huge difference.

density too.  pr probably could fill the stadium simply with the people in a two mile radius

Quote from: fsquid on December 09, 2012, 02:00:18 PM
density too.  pr probably could fill the stadium simply with the people in a two mile radius

Good point - I can see density making a huge difference, come to think of it.

The logistics of pretty much any sport venue in London are completely alien to the fan experience in the U.S. 

The mile plus walk from Putney Bridge station to Craven Cottage (through Bishop's Park) is part of the club's supporter tradition. Never once heard a complaint. There is absolutely zero parking at The Cottage and very little at nearby Stamford Bridge (which is, however, well serviced by the tube with practically adjacent Fulham-Broadway station). Mind you, Fulham and Chelsea's respective homes are less than 2 miles from each other in the same rather dense west London area. They're fine examples of how to keep using and upgrading historic venues (in the case of FFC) and integrate newer venues into the existing urban fabric. The Olympic venues in east London offer a better example of sports venues as part of area redevelopment.

And Adam W. hit at a great point earlier: Soccer stadiums must be more intimate, with less separation between fans and the pitch than is common in the U.S. Trying to create a small venue stadium that does too much ruins the game (and building a place to accommodate American football definitely spoils the game. FC Dallas is not my favorite MLS stadium by a long shot). That said, in terms of multi-use soccer stadiums, we have some advantages with liberal fan management regulations compared England. The area to accommodate a stage at one end, for example, can be sold as standing room (especially to supporter clubs) here.

I'll keep crossing my fingers that we get something here in JAX -- and that we do it well.

One of the reason Blackbaud stadium has so much parking is that it is in the middle of and office park.  I've been tailgating there on a Wed afternoon at 2:00 for a US Open Cup match.  It was kind of funny the looks we were getting from people going to their cars after work while we were tailgating.  They have a great pub inside the stadium as well.

In Columbus they throw in extra seating on the stage portion for big matches.  Columbus is one of my favorite venues to see the US National team play in here.

Quote from: danno on December 09, 2012, 07:15:41 PM
One of the reason Blackbaud stadium has so much parking is that it is in the middle of and office park.  I've been tailgating there on a Wed afternoon at 2:00 for a US Open Cup match.  It was kind of funny the looks we were getting from people going to their cars after work while we were tailgating.  They have a great pub inside the stadium as well.

In Columbus they throw in extra seating on the stage portion for big matches.  Columbus is one of my favorite venues to see the US National team play in here.

That explains a lot  ;)

I was looking at some of the newer MLS soccer-specific stadiums online and some of them are very impressive. I'd like to see the new Houston stadium in person - it certainly looks the part on Wikipedia. It's great to see that the majority of MLS franchises now actually play in soccer-specific stadiums. That's a great leap forward for the league.

I think Jax would definitely benefit from having something downtown or near downtown (in the 'urban core') should the day come when a pro team decided to set up shop in the city. I think there are easily enough soccer fans in the area to support a minor league team, but the problem really is to get the support there week after week - regardless of how well the team does. It's a commitment that not everyone is up for. There's no question in my mind that Jax is a football town, but we have trouble getting people to go to Jaguars games. And I'm sure we have plenty of hockey fans, too, but we've lost a number of minor league hockey franchises over the years (I went to a couple of Barracudas games and really loved it - though I've never been much of a hockey fan).

I think Jax is a soccer town though. Maybe we just need to start small and build on it.

Quote from: Adam W on December 08, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
Sorry, Ock, but I didn't mean to imply that you did. I was just making a point of keeping a soccer-specific stadium clearly in focus.

I do, however, think you are overestimating the numbers for Tea Men attendance. We may have had a few games when we managed 15k in attendance (I know the opener was a BIG game in terms of turnout), but I used to go to games regularly and we were lucky to manage 5 - 10K:

Here is why I think most of you are wrong on attendance at a major league Soccer event today.

When the Tea Men came to town the metropolitan population was 722,252

Metropolitan population today?  1,512,601

Difference?   790,349

68,097 people MORE then our entire population in 1980, equal to the entire population of Nassau County.

So between when the Tea Men played and today we have added ANOTHER ENTIRE CITY worth of people.

When the Tea Men took to the field, we packed in 17,128 at their first game, attendance waned later in the season, eventually dropping to around 10,000.  The second year with the entire league flagging in attendance we averaged
to be in last place with an average attendance of 7,160.

As the league stumbled to a stop, the Tea Men were taken into the minor league ASL. Without Lipton is was probably a suicidal move. Without the marketing dollars and the TV contracts the team was handicapped.

Application of simple math leads me to consider the numbers .99134% or 7,160 persons, the average attendance from throughout the metro area. Today the population increase means that if we attained .99134% of our population in attendance we'd hit 14,995.  Thus I'll stand by my guesstimate that we need a stadium seating around 15,000-20,000.

Though you might not know it from my discussions with I-1East, I'm the eternal optimist.

Well, Ock, I do think you're being a bit optimistic, though I think a bit of optimism never really hurt anyone. 15-20k would be great. I think most of the MLS stadiums hover around the 20k capacity range (at least the newer ones do). But I don't see Jax pulling those kinds of numbers on average - especially given that places like Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia, Toronto, etc averaged between 16k - 19k in 2012.

Of course, KC (apparently) averaged just over 19k, so nothing is outside the realm of possibility.

Even with the increase in population, I think it would be a tough sell to try and land an MLS franchise. I'd see Orlando as a better option. I think Jax could manage to hold on to a minor league soccer team and be quite successful at it if it was done correctly. I mean look - we have managed to keep the Suns (or Expos) forever.

That picture of the Tea Men and the Cosmos is crazy. I have no idea what is going on in it (I assume it's an NASL indoor match being played outside). The stands look pretty crowded, but that's probably because it was the Cosmos - they were the big team of the day. Depending on the year, they may even have been the League champions at the time.

Alan Verlander just tweeted that Mayor Brown will be making an announcement regarding soccer in Jacksonville at 1:15 today at Everbank Field.

He probably got the same email forwarded to us:

QuoteMAYOR BROWN TO MAKE MAJOR SPORTS ANNOUNCEMENT

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. Dec. 11, 2012 â€" Mayor Alvin Brown will make a sports announcement for an event to be held in 2013.

WHEN:          Tuesday, December 11
                        1:30 p.m.

WHERE:        Terrace Suites
                        Everbank Field â€" 32202

I am pretty sure Verlander was directly involved with the event.

I just looked him up.  I'm sure he is directly involved.  For some reason, I didn't recognize the name when I first saw your post.

maybe we got a qualifier?

The US Men's team has some World Cup qualifying matchups in 2013. Would be awesome if that is the announcements. US plays Panama in June and no venue named yet.

as far as I know, there haven't been any venues announced for the qualifiers at home.

You're correct. I was reading the other day that KC is the favorite to land the first match, against Panama, in March.

Mexico game will likely go up North too.

Probably. It would be great if Jacksonville could be part of that rotation for big soccer matches in this country. I think the turnout and atmosphere we had in May for the Scotland friendly both surprised and impressed alot of people.

I'd rather have the big one time events than a team to be honest.  May was a blast.

Quote from: fsquid on December 11, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
I'd rather have the big one time events than a team to be honest.  May was a blast.

Why not both?

Quote from: Tacachale on December 11, 2012, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: fsquid on December 11, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
I'd rather have the big one time events than a team to be honest.  May was a blast.

Why not both?

cause I think they are only announcing one thing today.

Quote from: fsquid on December 11, 2012, 10:55:09 AM
Mexico game will likely go up North too.

My sources tell me it will be Mexico in Columbus for the 3rd time in a row.