Metro Jacksonville

DIA Chairman answers questions about downtown and asks a few of his own, including figuring out how to extend the skyway to Everbank Field.

QuoteHarris made points and observations and also raised questions that he apparently wants the authority to answer:

• "If you go back, wouldn't it have been a great idea to put the St. Johns Town Center on the St. Johns River?" he asked, referring to the 240-acre retail, entertainment, hotel and restaurant center at Butler Boulevard and the Interstate 295 East Beltway. He called that a "no brainer."

• Jacksonville needs to define itself and create a brand, with the river being a strong one. "We have the best river," he said. "We have to make the river more exciting."

• The IBM Smarter Cities Challenge report about Downtown, released in October, "has to be the roadmap where Jacksonville needs to go."

• The Laura Street renovation project, which now takes about four blocks from the Landing to Hemming Plaza, should "take another 7-8 city blocks" in the surrounding area, he said.

• How should Jacksonville develop and enhance a Downtown entertainment district?

• How does the City redevelop the vacant Shipyards property along the Northbank riverfront?

• The Riverside and Brooklyn areas near Downtown will change, especially with the 220 Riverside residential and retail project under development. "It's going to look like you're in another place," he said.

• The neighboring San Marco, Brooklyn, LaVilla and Springfield areas all will feed into creating a successful Downtown.

• How can more vacant buildings be filled? Could historical buildings be converted into housing, such as lofts?

• Transportation access must be improved, and Harris twice referred to extending the Skyway to EverBank Field. "We have to do what makes sense. We have to figure out a way to make it work," he said of the Skyway. Referring to an extension to the stadium, he said, "We have to figure out a way to do that."

• How can the City attract more capital investment Downtown?

• "What would be great Downtown is a college, with college dorms," he said. Florida Coastal School of Law, based in Baymeadows, has been studying housing options Downtown for its students but has not released results.

• The authority must define "economic impact" and how incentives should be used.

• Downtown could benefit from "an event every weekend."

• The old Duval County Courthouse site must be addressed, and a convention center is up for discussion.

• Regarding Downtown retail storefronts: "We can get them revitalized."

• The rebuilding of the Southbank Riverwalk should begin in June, he announced.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=538183

I love the sound of all of these things, but considering this IS Jacksonville we're talking about... I'll believe it when I see it.

Praise Jesus! Amen! This will bring jobs and the skyway goes somewhere people want to go!? I'm all in.

Quote from: comncense on December 05, 2012, 11:06:08 AM
I love the sound of all of these things, but considering this IS Jacksonville we're talking about... I'll believe it when I see it.

+10000

As far as mass transit goes, I'd recommend Harris and the rest of the DIA get to know the mobility plan, North Florida TPO 2035 LRTP, etc. and work to coordinate their implementation with the downtown environment and the skyway.  As soon as we start locking into to focusing on downtown only transit, the sound gearing up in the background is the flushing of money down the drain.  DT will only be as successful as its ability to be seamlessly integrated with neighborhoods and destinations outside of it.

I'd be 'All In' provided that we also create the San Marco (west of the tracks at Atlantic) and Riverside Avenue Station legs. Without even this minimal residential connection the Skyway will remain 'all exits and no entrances.'

We also need a comprehensive multimodal connections as outlined in the mobility plan:

Commuter Rail at Jacksonville Terminal
Streetcar to Riverside
Rail to Gateway
BRT to Arlington and Beaches

yep. they have to expand and think about the connections to the surronding neighborhoods.

The one good thing is we now have a new 4 year window to get this moving, miss this and we probably won't see any help for decades.

Sounds encouraging, and seems like the mindset (optimistic but not pie-in-the-sky) the city needs.

I wouldn't extend to Everbank, that's a temporary need filled.  Bring it to Riverside or maybe just to the Brooklyn site.

Everbank would be great provided the station was closer to AP Randolph and the Arlington Expressway, this way it not only serves all venues it would serve the work-a-day life of the old Florida Avenue community.

I think that SJTC's current location out in the burbs is a 'no brainer'.

1. Even if condensed (urbanized etc) there would be no kinda room for a large development like the SJTC on the river in DT.
2. Most urban malls tend to be smaller, nothing gigantic like the SJTC.
3. There is something already on the river called the Jacksonville Landing, how bout fixing that up?

Sorry for going off course.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 05, 2012, 01:17:21 PM
Everbank would be great provided the station was closer to AP Randolph and the Arlington Expressway, this way it not only serves all venues it would serve the work-a-day life of the old Florida Avenue community.

Agree particularly if we can open the Brooklyn platform to correspond with it's new surrounding development.

I suppose the City Council will ask how much revenue this extension would bring in and if it will be enough to cover the ongoing expenses of the skyway.  I happen to like the idea but wonder about the funding and ongoing costs.





Diane M.

Not sure if this is off topic but, when does the new JTA Director begin working?

Quote from: comncense on December 05, 2012, 04:22:29 PM
Not sure if this is off topic but, when does the new JTA Director begin working?

I believe he's already here

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 05, 2012, 04:48:34 PM

Quote from: comncense on December 05, 2012, 04:22:29 PM
Not sure if this is off topic but, when does the new JTA Director begin working?

I believe he's already here

I'd be interested in hearing what his take is on Skyway expansion.

I don't think the Skyway is a system worth expanding until other better alternative modes of transportation are added or expanded.  A well-planned and implemented streetcar line would be a much better economic development tool than an expensive Skyway spur to the stadium district...Big time development is certainly not going to replace the parking lots around the stadiums and there are very few developable sites in that area (let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

General commuting to and from the Stadium district is out of the question and the only use will be for game days (and I don't believe for a second that our monorail, streetcars, or even LRT has the capacity to handle the spikes in demand that game day traffic could facilitate).  Really for transit only heavy rail has the capacity to transport tens of thousands of fans to stadiums at any given time...

Bottom line, a Skyway spur to the stadiums is a complete waste and will be shown as a waste (another notch in people's minds proving how spending on public transit is wasteful).  The high cost of the construction and operation, the inefficiencies of the layout as it stands now and with this additional spur, the small capacity of the system and the trains, and the area served itself (stadium district) is enough to logically say "No" to this.

Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

Not without making it impossible to cross by foot, car, or bike.

brain share, simms3?

Let the skyway DO its job, and connect to it with streetcar lines.

Obvious transfer connections would happen in:
Brooklyn,
the Kings Avenue parking facility,
Pearl/1st/Laura/Boulevard, Springfield Park "disc golf" vicinity,

and the bumfuzzled Parador parking structure planned for Hogan and Bay -
thusly east to and from the Stadium district, Florida Ave, Historic Albert Kahn/Ford building.

BUT

Would a pair of streetcar lines bolted, riveted, brazed and welded onto both sides of the Mathews bridge fall into the river and become our next artificial reefs?

The skyway is fine and does a decent job if left as is and tied seamlessly into a well executed at-grade fixed transit system.

Mass transit has never truly "paid for itself", nor was it meant to do so, and nor do our toxic sand and oil (a/k/a/asphalt) highways and bypasses.

Rubber-tired busses cannot ever do the job of a heritage line of (even open air) streetcars.
There exists a definite attraction to the perceived glamour of clean, quiet, nifty rail traveling streetcars.

We must embrace this passenger rail ideal and use it when it arrives, and for this to happen, such must be well executed and carefully planned.
The stringent, transparent vetting of said planning must take the necessary time needed in order to cover the correct ground and connect the failing destinations and fledgling masses.

The Jacksonville Historical Society did not uselessly publish a list of endangered places.

Annie Lytle, the Kahn building, the Springflield warehouses and Gateway, are the SAINT JOHNS TOWN CENTER.

Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2012, 05:01:14 PM
I don't think the Skyway is a system worth expanding until other better alternative modes of transportation are added or expanded.  A well-planned and implemented streetcar line would be a much better economic development tool than an expensive Skyway spur to the stadium district...Big time development is certainly not going to replace the parking lots around the stadiums and there are very few developable sites in that area (let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

General commuting to and from the Stadium district is out of the question and the only use will be for game days (and I don't believe for a second that our monorail, streetcars, or even LRT has the capacity to handle the spikes in demand that game day traffic could facilitate).  Really for transit only heavy rail has the capacity to transport tens of thousands of fans to stadiums at any given time...

Bottom line, a Skyway spur to the stadiums is a complete waste and will be shown as a waste (another notch in people's minds proving how spending on public transit is wasteful).  The high cost of the construction and operation, the inefficiencies of the layout as it stands now and with this additional spur, the small capacity of the system and the trains, and the area served itself (stadium district) is enough to logically say "No" to this.

I agree.  I wish the skyway had never been built.  It ruined the image of public mass transit like nothing else in Jacksonville. It is toxic as a political issue and is yet another  'silver bullet' for DT revivial.

Streetcar is the way to go, and in the mean time get the Laura Trio/Barnett buildings filled in some capacity.   

What is wrong with the skyway?  It has fixed stations and stops are predictable.  What would be the difference.  A street car would not be much different although on the street. 

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on December 05, 2012, 07:36:36 PM
What is wrong with the skyway?  It has fixed stations and stops are predictable.  What would be the difference.  A street car would not be much different although on the street. 

I think simms3 makes the case pretty well.  An extention to the stadium would mostly  used only on game/event days, would ruin the appearance of the Bay Street Entertainment district, and isn't economical and would not have the capacity of a streetcar line.   

Systems tied seamlessly together are useful - to a point (and I think it's difficult to seamlessly tie systems together).  Make it too complicated and you lose all your choice riders.  I, for one, would rather hop on one train system and make no more than 1 transfer to get me basically where I want to go (NYC is an obvious exception where you can essentially step off one train and right onto the next 30 seconds later and it's so easy).  I do not want to change lines, change systems, then time it so that a particular bus can get me the rest of the way.  At that point a car is all too practical, even with traffic.

For this reason alone the Skyway is stupid as it's too expensive and too impractical to actually go anywhere and it's built so that if we do invest in a better form of rail, it will likely "drop you off" at a Skyway station node in the middle of nowhere like at Prime Osborn, only to make you either walk the remaining half mile through no-man's land or force you to wait 10-15 minutes for your Skyway train to take you literally a half a mile more to where you need to go.

Had Jacksonville invested in LRT the way SLC and Portland did we wouldn't be having any of these discussions of justifying "feeder" lines to the fancy monorail and then trying to see if we could tie a streetcar line to the Skyway to nowhere, etc etc.  The Skyway's scope is so small and barely extends outside of downtown (by mere blocks) such that a connection is pointless as you're "connecting" to essentially go a few more blocks, but trust me, you don't necessarily want to walk those last few blocks as that's not really that pleasant either (hey I know, why not drive! LoL).

Rather than scratching our asses for $50MM to fund an additional pointless mile of Skyway to a stadium, a sure waste (a Skyway that literally does not have the capacity to handle crowds even 1/10 the size a football game or large concert would bring), we could be putting together a plan for a real system that we know would work somewhat ok even if we built it all wrong, and the Feds could help us out!

I agree with simms3 amd Vicupstate, that a skyway extension to the stadium and nothing more, would be a waste of money and another nail in the coffin of mass transit in Jacksonville.

As I might be considered by some Jaxson's as the reason the Skyway is dead in it's tracks. As much as I hated, fought and would have NEVER BUILT THE DAMN THING, the only thing worse then building it, was building only half of it.  I think the Skyway needs to go ahead and anchor most of it's original route, since we've done this much and the most expensive components (The car barns and operations center and the Acosta Bridge) are already done, it's time to bite the bullet on a slightly revised expansion and completion.

My critique:

The Riverside line, should be completed about the same time and the new developments, and in the interim we should have a temporary station at Lelia and Riverside Avenue.  The bulk of the line should be scrapped in favor of a terminus at the corner of Forest and Riverside.

The Shand's Line, should at least cross State Street to a station at or near Caroline and Hogan. The health department and the new VA Clinic should breathe new life into the north line and another look should be taken on the whole thing.

The San Marco Line, This is the NUMBER ONE most needed extension of the Skyway, and it should go south from Kings Avenue, cross the Florida East Coast Railway, turn south along the west side of the railway, drop to grade and terminate in a simple station with across the platform transfer capabilities to bus on one platform and rail on the other AT ATLANTIC.

The Stadium Line, needs to be completed, but is less urgent then either San Marco line or the Temporary Riverside stop. Thought should be given to terminating this around the fairgrounds. The 60 annual events hosted by The Jaguars, Sharks, Giants and other arena events added to the 70 Suns home games means 130 days out of the year this line should be able to reach it's hourly capacity of 3,600 per direction/per hour. 130 events x 2 hours (one hour before and one after each event) comes to 260 x 3600 passengers or an increase of 936,000 passenger per year.  Keep in mind the proximity to 'East Jacksonville' and the AP Randolph business corridor would provide a steady flow of transit dependent residential customers, while proximity to the Maxwell House, Hyatt, Police, Jail and East Bay Street entertainment district would open the Skyway's market to dense employment centers. Consideration should ABSOLUTELY be given to an intermodal interchange station where the extension crosses Newnan Street and a connection with buses and STREETCAR (for 5-Points, Springfield, Riverside and King Street District).

Lastly, study extending the Jacksonville Terminal (Prime Osborn to the unwashed masses) stub, west to Myrtle Avenue and on up and over the rail yards to Woodstock Park/Farmers Market area.

ANY EXPANSION SHOULD COME WITH AN ORDER FOR 12 M/L 'CENTER CARS' which we have the drawings for, 2 per train, making at least 6, 4 car trains. As the center cars are almost double the size of the end cars this would greatly enhance the capacity of the trains.

Anyone suggesting anything more from the Skyway then this little outline, should be taken outside, stood against a wall, and SHOT!  ;)

Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2012, 05:01:14 PM
(let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

The Omni and adjacent Bank building as well as the Hilton complex, are all three in Jacksonville DOWNTOWN because of the Skyway. If you'll search the record, you can find printed statements about the proximity to the Skyway being key in their decisions.

^I wouldn't fault the skyway for not stimulating as much economic development as it could.  LRT or streetcars won't either, if you don't have complementing land use policies.  Over the last 20 years, we've done everything to kill it.  For example, instead of encouraging use, we've ran competing bus lines and adding a ton of parking.

One of the easiest things we can do with this new DIA is create a CRA plan that actually acknowledges the existence of mass transit and makes sure all proposed projects are designed to complement it.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2012, 07:43:45 AM
One of the easiest things we can do with this new DIA is create a CRA plan that actually acknowledges the existence of mass transit and makes sure all proposed projects are designed to complement it.

This CRA plan will make or break Downtown Jacksonville.  If there was ever a time to get involved, this is it.  The DIA members are committed to success, however, we can't assume that they can do it alone.  They will need input from the community to guide their decisions and give weight to the outcome.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 05, 2012, 11:39:10 PM

Quote from: simms3 on December 05, 2012, 05:01:14 PM
(let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

The Omni and adjacent Bank building as well as the Hilton complex, are all three in Jacksonville DOWNTOWN because of the Skyway. If you'll search the record, you can find printed statements about the proximity to the Skyway being key in their decisions.

That may be the case, but man the developers were a little naive...the Skyway does next to nothing for all three of them now.  Also, as someone who works in development, even we'll say something to garner press and build support for something that may benefit us, but that's not the reason we are building what we are building.  For instance we touted the light rail along the Beltline as an impetus for Ponce City Market, and now that's not happening for a longg time, but the reason for our redevelopment effort is entirely different and is a little more macro (and more opportunity and capability to do it right) rather than a direct response to one potential stimulii (and weren't both the Hilton complex and Enterprise Center completed well before the Skyway was even under construction?).

There are three real estate plays as direct responses to transit that STILL depend on more maco economic conditions and basic fundamentals that I often hear of that are legitimate:

1) Office near a busy heavy rail or light rail station in a downtown where the downtown location is the first and foremost reason and the direct proximity to a busy station where commuters arrive is a secondary strong positive.  (the Skyway just doesn't fit in here because it's not whisking tens of thousands of commuters in to downtown like real systems, and simply extending to Riverside or San Marco won't achieve this either)

2) Multifamily near a light rail line or near a suburban heavy rail station (again multifamily is being built now based on other macro and capital markets reasons, and is being located near useful rail lines for reasons that play along with #1)

3) Urban mixed use campuses near a streetcar line (South Lake Union where Amazon is in Seattle comes to mind, so a streetcar is basically a connector to downtown and an easy way for people to maneuver the campus).  I think the Skyway is most like this, but we just did a horrible job making it useful and laying it out with no end result in mind.

I just don't think the Skyway literally *can* be an incentivizer because it can't really do anything.  Detroit's people mover does nothing and Seattle's is a $5 tourist ride to and from Westlake Center and the Space Needle/Chihouly Garden.

We've had a lot more development downtown since Enterprise Center and the Hilton, and none of it to my knowledge is due to the Skyway presence.

I think I agree with Simms on the last post.  For the skyway to truly reap the rewards of TOD, it needs to be seamlessly connected to a transit system that extends outside of downtown that also ties into a variety of destinations.  It really needs something that could feed it with thousands of riders.  We do have one peoplemover in this state that has a decent amount of TOD along its path.  It's Miami's Metromover.  However, that's a direct result of transit friendly land use policy and connectivity to Metrorail.  I suspect it will benefit even more from Metrorail's recent expansion to MIA and AAF's plans for the FEC corridor.

^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The Skyway is such a bad system that I don't believe a single more dime should be spent on it.  Rail needs to come directly from a residential area straight into the city, not to an outlying Skyway station.  And if DT and Southpoint/Gate are ever to be connected via rail, you better believe a Skyway transfer at King St will defeat the whole purpose.  Choice riders and commuters and business riders (aka airport to CBD or biz district to biz district) are point to point, not transfer/wait/transfer.  Only poor car-less people suffer through the endless transfers and the waiting because they have no choice, and a streetcar line from Riverside to downtown does not serve them or help them in any way, so if you're riders are looking for a quick and *convenient* way to work or into the city, don't piss them off and make it more difficult.

MetroMover is also such a different animal and is a loop system, which to me is more effective.  When I go to Miami on business and use the transit, I will occasionally use cab to Tri-Rail to the Metro (I fly into FTL), but it's easier for me to walk from the Metro to my hotel than to connect for a 3rd time on the MetroMover.  My company will expense the $100+ cab ride, so technically that's by far the easiest, but I am a transit junkie to a degree so I go out of my way to do it the hard way.

Quote from: Scott A Wilson on December 05, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

Quote from: scottwilson on December 06, 2012, 11:37:36 AM

Quote from: Scott A Wilson on December 05, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

If it ran at street level on Bay Street, no cars could cross in a north/south direction between Central Station and the stadium.  That's not a viable solution.

Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2012, 11:25:13 AMMetroMover is also such a different animal and is a loop system, which to me is more effective.  When I go to Miami on business and use the transit, I will occasionally use cab to Tri-Rail to the Metro (I fly into FTL), but it's easier for me to walk from the Metro to my hotel than to connect for a 3rd time on the MetroMover.  My company will expense the $100+ cab ride, so technically that's by far the easiest, but I am a transit junkie to a degree so I go out of my way to do it the hard way.

A cab to Tri-Rail?  Why not take the peoplemover or a shuttle bus to MIC?  Also, Detroit's is a loop and it sucks big time when you want to go in the opposite direction.  Metromover's central core is a loop but the longer north and south legs are bi-directional lines.

I find it easiest to hop in a cab...they are there waiting and drop you off at the station.  If there's a peoplemover that is attached to Tri-Rail, I certainly never knew about it.  Regardless, to get from FTL to Miami using public transit involves a good bit of waiting, lots of transfers, lots of system changes, and you still end up walking the last leg.  At least in South FL you can justify that in your mind by saving $100+ on cab fare and time in thick South FL traffic.

In Jax, there's little to no justification for transit at this point, so it's about convincing people to ditch their cars.  Making it difficult by forcing people to transfer from one system to the Skyway is not the way to go about it, in my opinion.  Jacksonville's transit system should be over-simplified, not overly complicated.  Only big/dense cities can get away with complex, multi-component systems involving transfers.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2012, 11:49:57 AM

Quote from: scottwilson on December 06, 2012, 11:37:36 AM

Quote from: Scott A Wilson on December 05, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

I was  thinking in terms of a streetcar or trolley from central station towards the stadium.

If it ran at street level on Bay Street, no cars could cross in a north/south direction between Central Station and the stadium.  That's not a viable solution.

I think he's saying "extend" the line using streetcar or trolley, not monorail. And yes, that would be physically possible in that sense.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2012, 11:48:45 AM

Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

The skyway in its current operation is probably much better than what simms remembers.

Simms, I think most of us agree that the skyway was a mistake and we would have been much better served going a different direction decades ago (or course it was federal dollars specifically for monorail that made it possible) But since we have it, I like to remind myself of what its strengths are: namely, getting us over the river, across the interstate and the train tracks into San Marco. Because we have it already, we should make use of its strengths.

More discussions on skyway expansion to the stadium...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,16498.0.html

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 06, 2012, 01:04:55 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2012, 11:48:45 AM

Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
^^^But in my opinion it's pointless to tie anything to the Skyway...like I said before, string a LRT or streetcar line to Prime Osborn or Union Street stations so that a shitty skyway car coming in 10-15 minutes can take you the remaining 3 blocks?  Stupid planning.

The skyway comes roughly every 3 to 7 minutes.  I'm not sure where the 15 minute headway thing is coming from. It's also a 2.5 miles system.  I'd agree if it the headways were 15 minutes and the length of a trip was three blocks.  However, its much better to take the skyway across the river than walking those bridges.

The skyway in its current operation is probably much better than what simms remembers.

Simms, I think most of us agree that the skyway was a mistake and we would have been much better served going a different direction decades ago (or course it was federal dollars specifically for monorail that made it possible) But since we have it, I like to remind myself of what its strengths are: namely, getting us over the river, across the interstate and the train tracks into San Marco. Because we have it already, we should make use of its strengths.

Yea I know it's better than what I'm giving it credit for, but it's not "good" or generally useful for most people.  I do have a question, though, for those with boots on the ground in Jax or those with this particular experience or observation.

Do workers on the Southbank use the Skyway in bulk to get across the river to eat lunch or go to bars after work?  I would think that would actually be the best use for the Skyway as of now, because you guys are right - walking those bridges in a suit in the summer or just in general is stupid unless you're out for that kind of stroll.

I still think a tiny city like Jax with no real need for extensive public transit other than as an economic stimulator and "showstopper" does not need to over-complicate the system.  Forcing transfers and forcing people to use the Skyway if they don't necessarily need to by "extending" Skyway lines from Prime Osborn, Union St and King St via streetcar to me does not sound like a good idea.  So many of the new streetcar lines in larger, more compact cities with legitimate rail systems are still "standalone" lines meant to connect neighborhoods, not to feed other lines, especially lines that aren't overly useful (like the Skyway).

I guess I'm saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves" here by building this complex thing and connecting systems.  A 2 line co-dependent system is only as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the Skyway.

I make 3 to 4 trips on the Skyway each week, usually between 9 am and 4 pm, from Kings Avenue Station to Hemming Plaza or Central Station.

Here are some of my observations:

- Less than 10% of the time, I am in a car alone.  About 20% of the time, all seats are taken (which means at least 4 to 6 people sitting).

- People are always getting on or off at Central Station or Hemming Plaza (I have never ridden it to FSCJ Station)

- At Kings Avenue Station, most of the riders are from bus transfers.  In the morning, there are usually people who walked from the hotel.

- Riverplace Station sees the least amount of activity.

- San Marco Station usually has one or two getting off to go to the hospital complex.

- I am beginning to see regular traffic of people getting on and off at Central Station going to the Everbank building (it is right across the street from the largest office building downtown).  I think we will see more of this as Everbank employees discover the benefits, and as the building fills up.

While we have an abundance of public parking spaces available Downtown, we have a limited supply of dedicated private parking that can be reserved for tenants.  As the occupancy rates climb, the Kings Avenue Garage will become more viable.

When the I-95 Overland Bridge project is complete, access to the Kings Avenue Garage will be much easier and we will likely see even more use by commuters.

However, the greatest increase in use for the system will come from extending it to an already walkable community, such as San Marco.  Transit systems are most utilized when they connect to walkable areas.  A system connecting to areas around Southside/Tinseltown/St Johns Town Center will never see the use that walkable areas of Riverside, San Marco and Springfield will.  If you have to get in your car once, you will probably to stay in the car until you get to your final destination.

Our first priority for investing should be in the places that people are most likely to use it.

Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2012, 02:57:25 PM
Yea I know it's better than what I'm giving it credit for, but it's not "good" or generally useful for most people.  I do have a question, though, for those with boots on the ground in Jax or those with this particular experience or observation.

Do workers on the Southbank use the Skyway in bulk to get across the river to eat lunch or go to bars after work?  I would think that would actually be the best use for the Skyway as of now, because you guys are right - walking those bridges in a suit in the summer or just in general is stupid unless you're out for that kind of stroll.

I worked in the Southbank in 2009-2010.  My old firm then relocated to the Northbank, where I worked from Nov. 2010 until July 2012.  Not many people use the skyway to go to bars after work hours.  During my time on the Southbank, there was a stretch when the system shut down at 7pm, so using it after work meant walking back.  Occasionally, we'd use it at lunch if we were going to a Northbank restaurant but our rotation of lunch spots also including driving to Riverside, San Marco and Bono's on Beach Boulevard. 

After we moved to the Northbank, JTA eliminated the skyway's fares and started eliminating a couple of duplicate bus routes, causing ridership to significantly jump.  Since I've left the firm, I use the skyway more now than I ever did.  I use it to park on the Southbank for free on days I spend considerable time in downtown.  Personally, I'm one who rather spend my parking change and money on local downtown businesses and restaurants instead of COJ parking.

QuoteI still think a tiny city like Jax with no real need for extensive public transit other than as an economic stimulator and "showstopper" does not need to over-complicate the system.

Jacksonville is larger than several cities that have successfully implemented various forms of mass transit across the country.  We grew up on transit prior to expressway construction.  We're not too small for fixed mass transit that actually is cheaper to implement and cost us less in the long run, then continued roadway expansion.  However, you're right in that we don't need an extensive system covering the entire county.  That's something that should be expanded incrementally.

QuoteForcing transfers and forcing people to use the Skyway if they don't necessarily need to by "extending" Skyway lines from Prime Osborn, Union St and King St via streetcar to me does not sound like a good idea.

To degree, every fixed transit system across the country is fed riders by various means of mobility.  I for one, do believe we should continue to eliminate duplicate bus routes along the skyway's corridor and force those riders to connect, via the skyway.  That saves us money and time because we can use the saved time to increase bus frequencies along the routes they already serve.

QuoteSo many of the new streetcar lines in larger, more compact cities with legitimate rail systems are still "standalone" lines meant to connect neighborhoods, not to feed other lines, especially lines that aren't overly useful (like the Skyway).

All of them either feed or are fed by various means of mobility.  They don't work any way else.  In Salt Lake City's case, their new streetcar will feed riders and be fed by riders from the existing LRT and bus lines.  Norfolk's starter LRT is fed by various bus routes that penetrate areas of the city where the rail spine isn't available.  Even in Charlotte, if you want to get to the airport, you have to transfer from LRT to the Sprinter (BRT).  In the future, if you want to go north/south in that city, you'll have to switch from LRT to modern streetcar.  In no city of significant size can one corridor, mode of mobility, or system fit all urban landscapes and neighborhood types.  Jacksonville isn't any different.

QuoteI guess I'm saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves" here by building this complex thing and connecting systems.  A 2 line co-dependent system is only as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the Skyway.

As a skyway user, I see the value of the system and what it's place can be in a long term vision of this city developing a comprehensive connected mass transit network.  From my view, it's an asset we fail to utilize properly.  However, with that said, I do believe it's a waste to extend it to the stadium without resolving the larger issue, which is having something that ties it with areas and destinations outside of downtown.

Any updates to any public transit system should be part of a regional plan. While it is inspiring to see someone in leadership speak out on a  difficult issue, action should be based on a plan. Plan, approve, build.

Exactly Doug, and Lake.  That San Marco extension to Atlantic would be a beehive of activity.  No bus or streetcar can reliably serve that corridor because of delays caused by random crossing blockages by the Florida East Coast Railway. Thus a line from west of the tracks at Atlantic in San Marco with cross platform transfers would put the Skyway in a powerful position. There are some 9,000 employees at Baptist, Wolfson and Aetna. ANY of those employees living in south Duval or St. Johns, or people traveling up the FECI or Amtrak could, in the future, step off of that train, walk 15 feet, and enter the Skyway car. That Skyway car then takes them to a pretty serious density of offices, medical, hotel and apartment complexes. This the line SHOULD BE extended to San Marco.

Riverside should be served at Lelia and Riverside Avenue via a temporary track and station. Eventually the line could be extended to the corner of Riverside and Forest avenue where the Skyway could meet inbound streetcars, BRT and city buses.


Almost every quality transit system in the world functions with a system of transfers, Jacksonville should be no different.

Once again, I do believe the Skyway going down Bay to Randolph would add nearly a million riders to the annual reports. Toss in a transit dependent East Jacksonville community and you've got as good a base as San Marco.



Lastly the Skyway extension should be done in traditional monorail style and JTA should lose the massive, overbuilt tub they've put the tracks in for future extensions. The top photo is a monorail in Thailand, note it is running near ground level and the track is very simple compared to what JTA/FDOT built. The second photo shows how light the construction could be with Disney's state of the art application. (Before you go all gangsta on a Mickey Mouse Monorail, you'd do well to understand it is the western hemisphere NUMBER one system).


Currently the entire transit system turns it's back on East Bay Street, the stadiums, arena, and East Jacksonville. Sending the Skyway east with basic track structure would be cost effective adding a million annual riders to the system at a minimum. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 06, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Riverside should be served at Lelia and Riverside Avenue via a temporary track and station. Eventually the line could be extended to the corner of Riverside and Forest avenue where the Skyway could meet inbound streetcars, BRT and city buses.

Almost every quality transit system in the world functions with a system of transfers, Jacksonville should be no different.

Currently the entire transit system turns it's back on East Bay Street, the stadiums, arena, and East Jacksonville. Sending the Skyway east with basic track structure would be cost effective adding a million annual riders to the system at a minimum. 

Would love to be proven wrong, and I realize I am just the simpleton guy who really doesn't know anything about transit aside from what I was told in one class and what I've experienced in 14 difference cities (HRT, LRT, streetcar, bus and commuter rail), but I just don't see a transfer system working with most in Jacksonville yet, aside from those who work low-paying jobs downtown or do bus transfers downtown who are stuck with whatever system we build because they simply don't have a car.

Knowing how little traffic there is in Jax, how abundant and cheap/free parking is, and how easily and conveniently I can get around via car, I would not take a streetcar or LRT "into the city" that forced me to get off before my destination to transfer to the Skyway (to me it defeats the whole purpose).

And let's not compare Jacksonville transit to "any quality transit system in the world".  First Jacksonville needs to build a basic transit system to test it out and set the foundation stone.  I don't think Jacksonville's first try at it should involve transfers or anything "fancy" and complicated.  Cities similar in size to Jax at the time they added transit, such as Charlotte and SLC, and even Portland for that matter, didn't try anything fancy...just one LRT line going from one area of the city straight into downtown.

Finally, adding a million riders would be relatively significant for the Skyway, but I wouldn't say it comes close to justifying the extension you refer to.  1,000,000 more riders is only 2,750 more people per day, which would essentially double ridership and probably bring ridership to ~1,800-2,000 per mile, but knowing how expensive the Skyway is, no matter how much we simplify the track, that is not worth it (that wouldn't even come close to qualifying a new streetcar line).