Metro Jacksonville

Honest, I didn't write this... Some of you will recall my howls at the HSR plan to get the train off I-4 and on the CSX alignment, it appears that 'The Eagle Has Landed!'

QuoteI-4 Corridor Passenger Rail Line Proposals Re-emerge

By Tom Palmer
THE LEDGER

LAKELAND | High-speed rail may be dead in Florida, but the idea of building some kind of passenger rail line along the Interstate 4 corridor between Orlando and Tampa is not.

The project is tenth on a list of "high priority transportation initiatives" that is being circulated by a regional transportation planning group for comment.

The group, called the West Central Florida MPO Chairs Coordinating Committee, is scheduled to formally approve the list in March, based on the comments received between now and then.

The committee includes representatives from Polk, Hillsborough, Pinellas, Pasco, Citrus, Hernando, Sarasota and Manatee counties.

The list is part of a long-term strategy to improve traffic movement and to promote economic development, Hugh Pascoe, staff services contractor for the committee, told the Central Florida Planning Council on Nov. 14.

The proposal, which still is in the conceptual stage, involves somehow extending the Orlando-based SunRail commuter rail system, which broke ground earlier year, along the Interstate 4 corridor using existing railroad lines.

"SunRail created a model for reusing freight rail corridors; it's something we cannot ignore despite what happened to high-speed rail," Pascoe said.

Plans were nearly completed for the United States' first high-speed rail system between Orlando and Tampa when Gov. Rick Scott decided in February 2011 to reject $2.4 billion in federal funds to help to build the line and turn it over to private companies to operate. That decision killed the project, which would have included a stop somewhere in Lakeland.

This isn't anything ground breaking.  Growing up down there, they've always wanted some type of passenger rail on the CSX tracks between Orlando and Tampa.  Tampa has created plans in the past that indicated some form of rail to Lakeland and St. Petersburg on CSX track in the past.  A few years back, Amtrak pitched a similar alternative. The breakthrough still needed is a green light from CSX.

yes....the CCC (regional MPO down there) and TBARTA have a list of major regional priorities....of course, the first 6 on the list are roadways widenings....the next 4 are premium transit.

and as Lake pointed out, just because high speed rail dies doesn't mean there isn't a desire for rail linking Lakeland and Tampa....that said, CSX has pretty much said no way to sharing their tracks and/or ROW....which is why folks are focusing on the I-4 median instead.

Certainly, just as Daytona Beach fancies itself as the eastern terminus for Sun Rail. I think the change here is found in this paragraph:


The proposal, which still is in the conceptual stage, involves somehow extending the Orlando-based SunRail commuter rail system, which broke ground earlier year, along the Interstate 4 corridor using existing railroad lines.

Which is exactly what they should have been doing all along. The corridor is ideal for a frequent 'Cal-Train' type service from Deland to Tampa.  The natural extension of this closes the gap between Jacksonville and Deland. If JTA ever operates a commuter train on the 'A' Line through Orange Park, Green Cove Springs and Palatka, the next stop would be Deland. I think what we are seeing is very early movement toward a more realistic plan and a rebirth of the entire Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa corridor. 

As for CSX?  They ARE playing ball with NY, and NJ as well as most of the other northeastern states so they can be brought to the table in Florida as well. CSX makes it's money off of trains on it's tracks and if it sees the opportunity for profit or 'free capacity expansion' they'll come around. It won't matter much if those trains are Amtrak or Sunrail.  If at some point the state gets ownership of the rest of the 'A' line it could pave the way for All Aboard Florida trains to be tossed into the mix.

QuoteThe proposal, which still is in the conceptual stage, involves somehow extending the Orlando-based SunRail commuter rail system, which broke ground earlier year, along the Interstate 4 corridor using existing railroad lines.

Again, nothing new.  This has been mentioned in the past.  The corridor is an ideal one for Cal-Train type rail service.  Even Paula Dockery mentioned it a few years back when she tried to kill the HSR project during the Crist era.  The key today is the same as it was a decade ago.  Finding common ground between what CSX wants and what whatever governmental agency is willing to pay.

Paula Dockery was trying to kill Sunrail.  Somehow she had it in her head that Sunrail would negate the HSR project when in reality Sunrail would have been the best thing ever to happen to the HSR.  Her husband was pushing the HSR.

I'm not questioning that this is nothing new, but the tilt toward common sense is refreshing after the "flying train goose chase!" And consider that this is probably news to much of our readership.

If North Florida had anything like progressive politics, we'd be talking about regional corridor services to Tampa via Waldo and Ocala, service to Gainesville, and trains to Tallahassee and Pensacola. Unfortunately our conversations are about how wide I-95 is going to be, toll lanes, and a unneeded as well as unwanted turnpike.

I'll try not to rain on your optimism. I may just be the negative Nancy but I'm not holding my breath on seeing anything more than the pathetic existing Amtrak service happening on that line anytime soon.

Yes it will probably stay that way until the public gets sick and tired of traffic (as happened in Miami-West Palm), only then will they pass the needed financing for rail.

Again, JACKSONVILLE'S MOBILITY PLAN is a masterpiece that promises to keep us from experiencing such pain.

CSX has no interest in selling or sharing the Tampa-Lakeland corridor....the growth potential between the Port of Tampa and the new Winter Haven intermodal terminal is huge!

Henry Posner of IAIS (Iowa Interstate) said recently he would love to host Amtrak or any other carrier on his line from Chicago to Omaha. He runs IAIS on the old Rock Island.

So it really comes down to who has the most to gain from the new bacon in rail. CSX isn't really hungry unless you feed them something. (for example SunRail purchasing ROW and liability in return for Jaxport access)

IAIS is hungry and will serve anyone, CSX is not and can nose up if it doesn't meet their liking.

Unless there is a government trough to feed from to reduce the risk, they (CSX) can sit tight.

CSX is in business to move wheels over it's rails for the maximum profit the market will bear.

From the south end of the new Winter Haven Terminal the CSX had a onetime mainline stretching from West Lake Wales through Bartow and on into Tampa so the 'A' line is not the only solution for freight.

I don't think there is a railroad anywhere in the world that would reject the idea of a second or third main track and new PTC signaling.  While they might appear to be playing hard ball, they're watching to see how much sweeter the deal might become.  BTW, BNSF just completed a third mainline all the way from Chicago to LA and Amtrak/KA/CO/NM might soon be the proud owners of the original Santa Fe main from Albuquerque to Newton, KS. Everything has a price when you answer to the Board of Directors.

I wouldn't be too worried over CSX, I bet they've leased some of that RofW for pipes and cables too!

Otherwise the Iowa Interstate runs along the the preferred route between Chicago and Omaha passing through Rock Island/Quad Cities and Des Moines along the way.  Amtrak has long coveted this line as it has the Florida East Coast, but Obama's Amtrak has been no more change or expansion minded then Ronald Reagan's.

I think it's clear that it all boils down to how much you're willing to pay a freight railroad in order to gain access to the tracks. To date, we haven't been willing to go that far in Florida as a whole.  However, I do believe that the Orlando deal pretty much sets the path.  You really want access?  You're going to have to pony up with a bunch of cash and make them an offer they can't refuse.

but why pony up cash to CSX for ROW when FDOT owns enough land on the I-4 median?

And don't overestimate the attractiveness od downtown Lakeland....the city is very annoyed about the potential for increased freight traffic in their downtown....and FDOT is doing a study to determine possible rail bypasses.

Winter Haven is perfectly fine with Lakeland pouting about their new CSX yard.  With that said, if FDOT doesn't slam lexus lanes in the median, I could still see it being used for some form of rail.  DT Lakeland is attractive, but the draw of Disney, I-Drive, Tampa's casino/fairgrounds, and Florida Poly will outweigh it and the troubles of dealing with CSX in the long run.  If All Aboard Florida's Orlando-Miami line is successful, I could see them making a play for the I-4 median.

^ the I-4 master plan was always set up for 6 regular use lanes, 4 special use lanes, and rail...so there is room for both express lanes (yes, they are Lexus Lanes and you can count on them getting built) and AAF

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2012, 03:50:58 PM(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/ScreenShot2012-11-23at104858PM.png)
JACKSONVILLE[/center]

It would be great to see FEC passenger trains back in Jax with the classic red and yellow livery.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 27, 2012, 02:21:12 PM
^ the I-4 master plan was always set up for 6 regular use lanes, 4 special use lanes, and rail...so there is room for both express lanes (yes, they are Lexus Lanes and you can count on them getting built) and AAF

Unless there is a box car load of $1,000 dollar bills ready to be handed over to AAF, there won't be any entirely new railroad track laid down where track already runs.  It would be MUCH cheaper for AAF to make a joint track, wheel charge, trackage right or similar deal with CSX to carry their trains along with the needed improvements.

Two similar obstacles exist in Southern California where far more traffic moves over the rails into LA and the San Joaquin Valley. At Cajon Pass, Union Pacific reaches across the continent to Daggett, CA. and hence from Daggett to Cajon summit over the tracks of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe. Meanwhile the Burlington Northern Santa Fe reaches from Daggett through the Barstow junction to Mojave where it shares track between Mojave and Bakersfield with Union Pacific.

In the case of Florida there hasn't been a connection between Central Florida and the Florida East Coast mainline since the FEC pulled up it's old Titusville - Mims - Maytown - Osteen - Enterprise - Benson Junction - Sanford branchline in the early 1970's. The closest we ever got to an Orlando connection was the old Chuluota - Bithlo - Holopaw portion of the Okeechobee Sub-Division of the Florida East Coast, which got to within a 1/4 mile of the old Seaboard Air Line 'Lake Charm' (OVIEDO) branchline. Unfortunately the FEC route was abandoned around 1949, and no physical connection was ever made. There is however, a connection between Orlando and Tampa, in place and operable.

There is also an easy way to 'cure' the Lakeland traffic problem, the Coleman Cut-Off, which ran between Coleman - Center Hill - Auburndale. Another CSX mainline branches off of the Lakeland Route at Richland, and travels south through Plant City entering Tampa or swinging south of Plant City and Lakeland there are myriad tracks, abandoned tracks and right-of-ways that could dodge Lakeland with very little effort and a whole lot less cash then a building a class 7 mainline down I-4.

I'm cheering for Scott to pave that track space with your Lexus Lanes, after all, the Grand Old Party has to find ways to block those budget destroying railroads!   ;)

The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

Since AAF has no plans to use the Orlando Utilities ROW to get to MCO, I am kind of curious how they would get from the MCO intermodal hub to the I-4 freeway let alone into Tampa if and when the cash rolls in.

Dallas had to get DART to go every which way but loose to circumvent neighborhoods, office parks and existing highways to get the DFW extension in place. No retired ROW's to use.

BTW: AAF is currently talking with the Mormon Church which owns an extensive ranch east of MCO along the Beachline. I guess they have to pick up a few parcels to get the alignment into MCO right.

My guess is if AAF is successful with this initial route, they'd expand north to Jax before Tampa since the track is already owned and in place.

Quote from: spuwho on November 27, 2012, 11:45:42 PM
Since AAF has no plans to use the Orlando Utilities ROW to get to MCO, I am kind of curious how they would get from the MCO intermodal hub to the I-4 freeway let alone into Tampa if and when the cash rolls in.

the same way high speed rail was going to....the Greeneway (SR 417)

Quote from: thelakelander on November 27, 2012, 11:18:39 PM
The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

I was Just not thinking about the current plans, but given the current FECI plan, freights COULD BE routed over the FEC between Jacksonville and Winter Haven using the new Cocoa - Orlando line. This would certainly avoid all objections from Lakeland.

Where was it published that FECI would not use the OUC corridor to reach the south side of the airport? I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business. (NOTE TO SELVES: Why is JTA trying to be a highway agency and a transit operator?) Seems to me like a simple solution for Cocoa Beach would be to add a surcharge to the ticket price equal to the toll revenue. Problem solved, Cocoa Beach gets it's station and the Beachline keeps it's revenue stream.

If FECI decided to avoid the Beachline it could map a shorter route southward by cutting a diagonal route across the Mormon Ranch coming into the current FEC mainline around Palm Bay/Melbourne.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2012, 01:37:52 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 27, 2012, 11:18:39 PM
The Coleman Cut-Off is 53 miles of pulled up track.  A chunk of that has a multi-use trail running down the center of it.  Cost wise, I find it hard to believe that it would be cheaper to lay 53 miles of new track, replace the 29 mile General Van Fleet Trail, and upgrade over 70 miles of CSX track, than simply building 80 miles of new track.  Since FEC is in the business of making money, I'd suspect the State would have to pony up big bucks for anything involving rebuilding the abandoned rail corridor through the Green Swamp.

I was Just not thinking about the current plans, but given the current FECI plan, freights COULD BE routed over the FEC between Jacksonville and Winter Haven using the new Cocoa - Orlando line. This would certainly avoid all objections from Lakeland.

Why would CSX want their freight relocated to the FEC corridor?  The Lakeland issue (if its really an issue worth spending money on) could be resolved by FDOT or City of Lakeland building an overpass or two.  However, I doubt FDOT would want to spend more money on overpasses for downtown Lakeland when they already recently constructed two of the three existing grade separated crossings as a part of the Intown Bypass project (SR 548).  With this in mind, I don't see CSX, FEC, or the State making it a priority to spend significant dollars because Lakeland doesn't want freight rail running on century old tracks through downtown.

(http://www.drmp.com/images/Project_Photos/Transportation/Highway_Design/Lakeland-Intown-Bypass-Lg2.gif)

QuoteWhere was it published that FECI would not use the OUC corridor to reach the south side of the airport? I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business. (NOTE TO SELVES: Why is JTA trying to be a highway agency and a transit operator?) Seems to me like a simple solution for Cocoa Beach would be to add a surcharge to the ticket price equal to the toll revenue. Problem solved, Cocoa Beach gets it's station and the Beachline keeps it's revenue stream.

My reply was in response to discussion on a potential Orlando/Tampa link.  From what I understand, I don't believe FEC will have any problem getting ROW between Orlando and Cocoa for the initial segment.

QuoteIf FECI decided to avoid the Beachline it could map a shorter route southward by cutting a diagonal route across the Mormon Ranch coming into the current FEC mainline around Palm Bay/Melbourne.

It seems like they are making progress on securing the ROW necessary to reach Orlando's airport.  I'd be surprised if there is a major hiccup in utilizing ROW in or paralleling the Beachline.

An FEC / CSX 'DEAL' is purely speculation, so I was 'Just Say'in'.  Actually though these sorts of deals are made by railroads all the time, to wit, NS operating an intermodal terminal in Titusville, Florida with run through trains. So I could imagine a virtually zero cost deal where CSX got access to the (much better - faster) FEC main, Jax to Orlando and FEC got access to Tampa. I know you understand this Lake, but some of our readers probably don't.

The following is from the FEC RY webpages, it's a great example of such an arrangement as most of you know, the FEC track doesn't get any closer to Atlanta then the Beaver Street Viaduct.

QuoteAtlanta, GA

FEC's Atlanta intermodal terminal is located at the Norfolk Southern's Inman Yard. It features thorough tracking and tracing capabilities so that we know where your unit is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Security and protection of your shipment is a high priority at every ramp facility. The Atlanta terminal is located on Marietta Road and is convenient with easy in and out gate areas. FEC dispatches empties for loading and loads ready to be brought to the rail from this facility. There is a full time staff available to meet your every need for drayage and intermodal services.

Location:
1600 Marietta Road, NW - Gate 6
Atlanta, GA 30318

Hours:
24 hours, daily

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2012, 03:54:44 PM
An FEC / CSX 'DEAL' is purely speculation, so I was 'Just Say'in'.

Gotcha.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2012, 01:37:52 PM
I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business.

FECI doesn't want a stop in Cocoa Beach...and pretty much everyone else has caved...with the exception of the city of Cocoa.

As for the Lakeland question, FDOT is spending several million dollars on a PD&E study of alternative rail corridors...the study website is

http://www.polkrail.com/

The PD&E seems like a waste to me but it will be interesting to see the final recommendations and the parties suggested to pay the expense to implement them.  That CSX line through Lakeland doesn't have as many at-grade crossings as railroads tend to have in cities that size. Make DT Lakeland a quiet zone and provide a few pedestrian bridges over the tracks in DT.  If another overpass is desired, consider squeezing something in on North Florida Avenue...or better yet, diverting through trips to a corridor that already is grade separated.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 29, 2012, 09:19:52 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2012, 01:37:52 PM
I understand they have a beef with the Beachline folks over Cocoa Beach becoming a stop.  Looks like the highway boys are afraid of the rail project 'stealing' their toll business.

FECI doesn't want a stop in Cocoa Beach...and pretty much everyone else has caved...with the exception of the city of Cocoa.

I wouldn't be too concerned if I were in the leadership at Cocoa Beach.  They have a huge passenger generator in the cruise port, and these 'wayside' stops tend to grow on the lines after service is established.  The end result is that they'll likely get the stop eventually.

I would expect that the Cocoa Beach stop may come about when they start looking north to Jacksonville. If they shut out Cocoa Beach, Melbourne, Fort Pierce, it does not bode well for Daytona Beach and St. Augustine. 

With Port Canaveral boarding around 200,000 passengers a month, Daytona has about 7.7 million visitors a year, and St. Augustine has 3.4 million overnight visitors and easily double that many day trip visitors.  It's hard to imagine once things are up and running that they would blow this off.

Cocoa is only being shut out because of the concerns raised by OOCEA

Seems like a easy solution would be to surcharge tickets between Orlando and Cocoa with an amount equal to the toll on the Beachline.

Cocoa Beach gets to reopen it's train station (which is modern and still standing)
Port Canaveral can market itself using the trains
OOCEA still pockets the revenue

Don't forget that Amtrak intends to serve this line between Jax and Miami and will have intermediate stops. Cities like Cocoa, Stuart and a few others are making plans to have stations ready when Amtrak does. These are cities that AAF has made no plans to serve.

While I think it would be great to have a fast line between MCO and the Space Center, the Beachline has that covered with buses for now. AAF will be using the Beachline for just that (buses) until the MCO/Cocoa line is finished.

If the maglev gets built between MCO and the Convention Center, AAF gets finished, along with SunRail and a future Tampa route, MCO is going to be the transportation capital of Florida bar none.