Quote
Philadelphia developers PMC pull out of a deal to acquire Downtown's Laura Street Trio
The deal a Philadelphia firm was considering to acquire and renovate the historic Laura Street Trio and Barnett Bank Building in downtown Jacksonville has fallen apart, according to sources.
...
http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2012/11/philadelphia-firm-pulls-out-of-deal-to.html
Happened a few weeks ago; sucks, but not surprised.
What happened to the higher educ dorms?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/08/24/developer-says-evolved-laura-street.html
I'm not surprised at all, but this still stinks.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on November 20, 2012, 09:38:08 AM
What happened to the higher educ dorms?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/08/24/developer-says-evolved-laura-street.html
Think he was just fishing/trying to get involved when Florida Coastal said they were out in the market
Figures, even with Khan financially backing this nothing can happen? I think it's time the buildings are completely boarded up, sealed and left to sit as a reminder of how great Jacksonville used to be.
(http://www.resurgemus.com/archives/rhyolite_7547d.JPG)
Jacksonville, looking more like Rhyolite, Nevada every day!
Savannah's port just got ANOTHER $50 million from the State of Georgia.
Our Port Director was recruited to use his connections to get our harbor deepened and improved, now he's apparently jumping ship.
The Laura Trio and Barnett Building are back on the eternally vacant list.
Our libraries are open 4 hours a day, but only on Leap Year.
We'll mow the highway right-of-way 3 or 4 times a year going with a more 'natural' look.
DAMN PEOPLE, WE'VE GOT TO STOP THIS TAILSPIN!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2012, 10:50:16 AM
Savannah's port just got ANOTHER $50 million from the State of Georgia.
Our Port Director was recruited to use his connections to get our harbor deepened and improved, now he's apparently jumping ship.
and he has done that so far....with his help the ACOE sped up the review process significantly with a recommendation by spring 2013.
also rumor has it JaxPort is making a counter-offer to keep him
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2012, 10:50:16 AM
(http://www.resurgemus.com/archives/rhyolite_7547d.JPG)
Jacksonville, looking more like Rhyolite, Nevada every day!
Savannah's port just got ANOTHER $50 million from the State of Georgia.
Our Port Director was recruited to use his connections to get our harbor deepened and improved, now he's apparently jumping ship.
The Laura Trio and Barnett Building are back on the eternally vacant list.
Our libraries are open 4 hours a day, but only on Leap Year.
We'll mow the highway right-of-way 3 or 4 times a year going with a more 'natural' look.
DAMN PEOPLE, WE'VE GOT TO STOP THIS TAILSPIN!
(Our libraries are open 4 hours a day) This is truly wrong when you dummy up the people that want to learn and move forward you're really killing the city of Jacksonville, Fl. “No place affords a more striking conviction of the vanity of human hopes than a public libraryâ€
Samuel Johnson quotes
Back in August, the project was proposed by Steve Atkins an dnow has been declined by this Philadelphia group. I assume Atkins dropped it between August and whenever the Philly group looked at it? Can someone clarify?
Atkins never signed anything.
Atkins had nothing to do with this project
The Library is a fraction of the cost, much more feasible, and in a key location.
It also would make a huge impact.
Energy should be focused there.
^Agreed.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember hearing or perhaps reading that Mayor Brown wants his big downtown legacy project to be the Trio. I believe he was advised to pick one project and focus on doing it right. Sound right?
Quote from: downtownjag on November 20, 2012, 01:02:57 PM
Atkins had nothing to do with this project
Then why was the August JBJ article about his plans for it? I guess he never committed to anything?
QuoteThen why was the August JBJ article about his plans for it? I guess he never committed to anything?
Drumming up support for equity partners and people interested in signing letters of intent.
Correct.
Not surprising, but bad news nonetheless. I really do hate playing devil's advocate with every positive news story (Brooklyn being the last), but the truth of the matter is that Jacksonville is such a bad market to invest in that nobody can go to their investment committees and tell them with a straight face that they are going to deploy equity in Jacksonville...and lenders have basically red-lined the market (look at how many partners it takes to get one cookie cutter multifamily deal done in Brooklyn, even in these times of mass multifamily hysteria).
I think the city government is going to have to take the first big step here in turning the city around by making the first investment leap of faith (PPP between Khan and City of Jacksonville for Trio with someone like Atkins on board as fee developer?). Something drastic and "progressive" to right the ship and send a message to the market (like beautifying the Klutho parks AND putting in a starter streetcar and creating grant programs targeting specific industries, etc), because the market was scared away back in 2007 and wonders why they looked at Jax then in the first place.
Quote from: simms3 on November 20, 2012, 03:22:34 PM
Not surprising, but bad news nonetheless. I really do hate playing devil's advocate with every positive news story (Brooklyn being the last), but the truth of the matter is that Jacksonville is such a bad market to invest in that nobody can go to their investment committees and tell them with a straight face that they are going to deploy equity in Jacksonville...and lenders have basically red-lined the market (look at how many partners it takes to get one cookie cutter multifamily deal done in Brooklyn, even in these times of mass multifamily hysteria).
I think the city government is going to have to take the first big step here in turning the city around by making the first investment leap of faith (PPP between Khan and City of Jacksonville for Trio with someone like Atkins on board as fee developer?). Something drastic and "progressive" to right the ship and send a message to the market (like beautifying the Klutho parks AND putting in a starter streetcar and creating grant programs targeting specific industries, etc), because the market was scared away back in 2007 and wonders why they looked at Jax then in the first place.
+1
QuoteNot surprising, but bad news nonetheless. I really do hate playing devil's advocate with every positive news story (Brooklyn being the last), but the truth of the matter is that Jacksonville is such a bad market to invest in that nobody can go to their investment committees and tell them with a straight face that they are going to deploy equity in Jacksonville...and lenders have basically red-lined the market (look at how many partners it takes to get one cookie cutter multifamily deal done in Brooklyn, even in these times of mass multifamily hysteria).
I can't comment on whether you are being overly negative, b/c that is subjective... but you certainly are incorrect, factually.
The amount of outside investors that have broken ground on multi-family starts here in the past two years has been pretty significant. Most of those deals are on the Southside. You could argue that there is pent up demand for more development like 220 and supply has not caught up with that demand, and I would agree with you but multi-family development is very much alive and well in Jacksonville.
And to clear something else up... 220 Riverside is a complete private equity deal, no bank financing.
From someone who actually is a lender, your claims of 'redlining the market' are simply not correct. We have significant competition for pretty much every local multifamily deal we look into.
I do agree with the sentiment that the City needs to take a more active stance on restoring Hogans Creek and corresponding parks... but that has no effect on a multi-faimly's financial validity. And Khan is in fact behind most of certain local developers' bird dogging on certain historical properties at the moment.
QuoteAnd Khan is in fact behind most of certain local developers' bird dogging on certain historical properties at the moment.
Hmmmm ... that is saying a lot with just a few words at the end of a paragraph.
I agree with Field on this, the multihousing market is rebounding nicely in Jacksonville. However, I might add that it is "new" or "3/4 rebuild" that is being invested in. The remodeling older buildings, like what we have in the Trio and Barnett Bank buildings is still far from recovering. I tend to believe it will only take one brave (or stupid depending upon your outlook I guess) investor to actually start a project instead of just talking about it and then we will see downtown takeoff.
It seems there are many plans sitting in folders and on flash drives just waiting to be whipped out for presentation once someone has proven they can make money. Everyone is still very cautious, to Jacksonville's detriment. I do not believe the City should use taxpayer money for this, the people with the plans have the money let them figure it out.
QuoteHowever, I might add that it is "new" or "3/4 rebuild" that is being invested in. The remodeling older buildings, like what we have in the Trio and Barnett Bank buildings is still far from recovering.
That's universally true for most markets across the country. There are such good returns on certain segments of the multifamily market... that not much money is chasing huge, expensive (risky) deals like the Trio. That's not something unique to Jax.
If the deal was just for Barnett, it would make a lot more sense financially... but the catch 22 is, you'll need the Trio property to be able to build the parking garage to make Barnett work.
Very true. And I was going to ask why the Barnett Bank had to be included in the package and not stand-a-lone, thanks for answering that before I could get it out! That does make sense.
While I know y'all can anticipate what I'm going to say, but one word would cause urban Jacksonville to turn the corner.
S T R E E T C A R !
It's a proved fact all around the world, development ROI running between $3-to-$1 to as high as $14-to-$1, the mobility plan will fund it.
Quote from: JayBird on November 20, 2012, 09:57:24 PM
Very true. And I was going to ask why the Barnett Bank had to be included in the package and not stand-a-lone, thanks for answering that before I could get it out! That does make sense.
So if the city built the garage, it would allow all four buildings to be renovated? Maybe that should be the city's contribution. At least a garage has a revenue stream, and could be sold later post-revitialization.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 20, 2012, 03:38:20 PM
QuoteNot surprising, but bad news nonetheless. I really do hate playing devil's advocate with every positive news story (Brooklyn being the last), but the truth of the matter is that Jacksonville is such a bad market to invest in that nobody can go to their investment committees and tell them with a straight face that they are going to deploy equity in Jacksonville...and lenders have basically red-lined the market (look at how many partners it takes to get one cookie cutter multifamily deal done in Brooklyn, even in these times of mass multifamily hysteria).
I can't comment on whether you are being overly negative, b/c that is subjective... but you certainly are incorrect, factually.
The amount of outside investors that have broken ground on multi-family starts here in the past two years has been pretty significant. Most of those deals are on the Southside. You could argue that there is pent up demand for more development like 220 and supply has not caught up with that demand, and I would agree with you but multi-family development is very much alive and well in Jacksonville.
And to clear something else up... 220 Riverside is a complete private equity deal, no bank financing.
From someone who actually is a lender, your claims of 'redlining the market' are simply not correct. We have significant competition for pretty much every local multifamily deal we look into.
I do agree with the sentiment that the City needs to take a more active stance on restoring Hogans Creek and corresponding parks... but that has no effect on a multi-faimly's financial validity. And Khan is in fact behind most of certain local developers' bird dogging on certain historical properties at the moment.
You and I could argue til we're blue in the face. Everything is relative. So 5 square miles of the city (which is 800 square miles in a metro that is 3,500 square miles) is seeing 2,000 units deliver in the next 24 months, most of it garden style. A historical high for the submarket, probably large enough to force a pause in new multifamily lending in that area. But where else are there apartments going up? Anywhere? Everything I have read indicates it is all Gate Parkway with Brooklyn delivering a few hundred (all equity) and a lone project out near Oakleaf?
I'd love to hear your generalized thoughts on the lending environment in Jax. You say your competition is fierce...does that include life insurance companies? Are all the banks in? UBS and PNC for example? I know they've been active in multifamily lending. Do you size your loans based on a debt yield or LTC comparable to other peer markets like Nashville or Charlotte, or is underwriting a little more conservative in Jax? If not going through Fannie/Freddie, is the spread the same in Jax as other markets?
Back to relativity, Charleston is seeing a historical high of deliveries now...more units coming on-line than in Jax, in a market half the size with around 1/3 the existing product. Nashville is also seeing a historical high, mostly infill similar to 220 Riverside (with a few towers breaking ground in the next 90-180 days). Charlotte and Raleigh are both close to historical highs with 5,000+ units coming on-line in the same time frame, mostly infill similar to 220 Riverside.
Jax as a market is still far far below historical highs. There may be a pent up demand for infill like 220 Riverside, but if people truly believed that you'd see more projects like 220 already under construction with financing.
I'll be in town later today through the weekend and am certainly excited to see all the new construction (it's been a year since I've been in town), but it will be excitement relative to Jax (let's face it, it's been a slowwww last 5 years!). A market that really does overwhelm me with construction relative to its size is Nashville...a quieter version of Austin. A lot of people are putting a lot of quiet faith in the strength of the Nashville market, especially for high-end infill.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2012, 11:21:24 PM
While I know y'all can anticipate what I'm going to say, but one word would cause urban Jacksonville to turn the corner.
S T R E E T C A R !
It's a proved fact all around the world, development ROI running between $3-to-$1 to as high as $14-to-$1, the mobility plan will fund it.
How do we get some politicians as reliable and stick to the point as well as Ock?!! Right there with ya, if you keep saying it, someone will hear sooner or later!
Quote from: simms3 on November 21, 2012, 10:52:48 AM
I'll be in town later today through the weekend and am certainly excited to see all the new construction (it's been a year since I've been in town
you should come over to the Jax Cash Mob in San Marco on Friday....fieldafm (plus many others, including myself) will be there and you can discuss these issues in person
Quote from: JayBird on November 21, 2012, 10:54:16 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2012, 11:21:24 PM
While I know y'all can anticipate what I'm going to say, but one word would cause urban Jacksonville to turn the corner.
S T R E E T C A R !
It's a proved fact all around the world, development ROI running between $3-to-$1 to as high as $14-to-$1, the mobility plan will fund it.
How do we get some politicians as reliable and stick to the point as well as Ock?!! Right there with ya, if you keep saying it, someone will hear sooner or later!
Thanks JayBird, 30 years + and it's finally starting to move forward. ;)
I just wish we would hear SOMETHING for Atkins. All this stuff is confusing and on one is saying anything. Im totally confused on what is going on. From the way it sounds, were there two different developers interested in the Trio. Atkins and the company that just pulled out?? Im trying to make sense of this.
Yes, there were two different development groups going after it. Now one has pulled out and Atkins has been quiet for a few months.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 21, 2012, 11:25:32 PM
Yes, there were two different development groups going after it. Now one has pulled out and Atkins has been quiet for a few months.
Okay thanks for clearing that up. hopefully Atkins is still cooking something up