Metro Jacksonville

Why do we have parking meters Downtown?
I am asked often what is wrong down here and although there is more than one answer I tend to think doing away with the parking meters would be a positive step to take.
I am not an urban planner so maybe someone can explain it to me but I don't see the need to restrict parking and charge the public a fee to use that which they already own.

The major problem with removing the parking meters is that the downtown employees, the very one's who should have sense enough to leave the parking spaces for paying clients or shoppers would, because of their laziness and stupidity, take up a parking space "all day long".  Many employees would not want to walk two blocks to a parking lot. 

If the meters were to be removed, there must be a method of keeping the employees off of them so that customers and clients could have the spaces for short visits to downtown.

^We don't have nearly the amount of downtown employees that we had when the meters were originally installed.  Also, if you want to preserve parking turnover, you can solve that problem by offering free parking with time limits.

This would be a great time to start a movement to kill the meters. I got some data from parking enforcement a couple of years ago and discovered that the meters were not paying for the staff and vehicles. If I remember right there are around 43,000 parking spaces in the downtown and around core mostly in garages including about 4,500 meters, both public and private.

So we've created a "welfare class" of useless business wrecking machines. The beloved meters require constant feed and maintenance which only perpetuates the folly of a large city chasing it's own tail. Talk about a zero gain.

If we wanted to "retain income" we could use our peripheral garages and lots, with hourly deals for the purpose of close in park and ride, tied to the Skyway, bus or future streetcar. A bit of promotion and some decent parking/transit package deals might go a long way toward ultimate change.

Parking enforcement would not be sacrificed, it would be expanded; downtown becoming an area of well defined temporal parking zones with traditional white, red, yellow, green painted curbs.

There are perhaps six kinds of potential parking space users.  Retail Customers, Business Clients, Citizens Visiting Government Offices, Tourists, Residents, and Core Employees.

The last two listed are the only ones having any reason to take up a space all day.  The remainder usuall need a space for only an hour or two.

To me, this means that if we could keep the residents and employees from parking in the core spaces all day long, we could then offer free parking for the remaining users listed above.

In other words, the first four types of listed users wish to use the spaces only for an hour or two.  Therefore, there is no need to charge for parking to limit the use of the spaces.

The solution would be to somehow target all of the vehicles used by residents and core employees, and then enforce that they park in lots or multilevel areas.  If this is enforced properly, there will be too many insensitive employees and residents who, by their laziness, well take up valuable spaces all day long. 



   

Quote from: thelakelander on November 09, 2012, 09:37:45 PM
^We don't have nearly the amount of downtown employees that we had when the meters were originally installed.  Also, if you want to preserve parking turnover, you can solve that problem by offering free parking with time limits.

Unenforceable.  I think that the meters are doing exactly their purpose, which is to save on-street parking for short term visitors by making it logistically unfeasible to park there for more than two hours.  The system's advantages (easy parking for visitors) easily outweigh any disadvantages (what, a couple quarters??- that's not deterring anyone from coming downtown) and in my opinion it should be left alone. 

^How can you say its unenforceable when it works in countless cities across the country? 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548913_YhmaJ-M.jpg)
Example: Cleveland

Whether you like it or not is one thing, but to say it simply doesn't work is another.

2012-674 is the legislation that will address all these concerns and will be introduced in 3 days at the Jacksonville city council meeting.

2012-674 is on the agenda the next day for DIA Board meeting at 2 pm Ed Ball bldg. rm 851. There will be an opportunity for Public Comment at this DIA Board meeting before the legislation would then go before the various committees and then to city council for approval.

The various Zones, Districts, and new enforcement guidelines are all on the table. There is FREE PARKING but you have to land on it.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 02:27:57 AM
^How can you say its unenforceable when it works in countless cities across the country? 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548913_YhmaJ-M.jpg)
Example: Cleveland

Whether you like it or not is one thing, but to say it simply doesn't work is another.

I don't know how Cleveland does it. But in some places around where I live, you go to a machine and buy a time-stamped receipt that you place in the window of your car. That way the parking warden knows how long you've been parking there.

In areas where they don't have that, they still have parking/traffic wardens who needs to walk around and keep an eye on the situation. I'm not disagreeing with you at all - Jax might well not need meters, but would definitely need more boots on the ground to enforce the one hour parking if the meters were taken away.

I doubt they have cameras in Cleveland, but cameras are another way to enforce it. I am not a fan of parking meters myself.

I suppose the ideal solution would be some sort of magical, free meter you could use once. That way you wouldn't have to pay to use it and you'd still have something monitoring your time in the space. And maybe the magical meter would take a picture of your license place and send you a parking ticket if you overstayed your time period by 10 minutes or so.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 02:27:57 AM
^How can you say its unenforceable when it works in countless cities across the country? 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548913_YhmaJ-M.jpg)
Example: Cleveland

Whether you like it or not is one thing, but to say it simply doesn't work is another.

You're right: I should have said "Practically Unenforceable without adding hundreds more parking staffers".  My bad.

That still doesn't change the fact that the two-hour max meters accomplish the same thing, at no cost (indeed, revenue-positive) to the city.

Come on dude, it's 2012.  There's an app for that.

www.genetec.com/Solutions/Pages/parking-enforcement-and-inventory.aspx

Quote from: Pinky on November 10, 2012, 06:07:07 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 02:27:57 AM
^How can you say its unenforceable when it works in countless cities across the country? 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548913_YhmaJ-M.jpg)
Example: Cleveland

Whether you like it or not is one thing, but to say it simply doesn't work is another.

You're right: I should have said "Practically Unenforceable without adding hundreds more parking staffers".  My bad.

That still doesn't change the fact that the two-hour max meters accomplish the same thing, at no cost (indeed, revenue-positive) to the city.

Quote from: Pinky on November 10, 2012, 12:06:51 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 09, 2012, 09:37:45 PM
^We don't have nearly the amount of downtown employees that we had when the meters were originally installed.  Also, if you want to preserve parking turnover, you can solve that problem by offering free parking with time limits.

Unenforceable.  I think that the meters are doing exactly their purpose, which is to save on-street parking for short term visitors by making it logistically unfeasible to park there for more than two hours.  The system's advantages (easy parking for visitors) easily outweigh any disadvantages (what, a couple quarters??- that's not deterring anyone from coming downtown) and in my opinion it should be left alone.

Pinky is right leave the meters alone if it ain't broke don't fix it.  ;)

The removal of the meters would have to include a prohibition  of the use of core parking spaces by those who would have a need or wish to park for several hours; that is, core residents and employees.

All other users, such as shoppers and visitors would not have a need to park for more than one or two hours.  This limited need by the latter users would eliminate the need to have meters.

The result would be that the fear of getting a ticket by shoppers and visitors would be eliminated, thus improving the overall attractiveness of downtown..... removing a "negative" which has been in the core for too long.   

The trick would be to determine the best way to convince and control the employee and resident parking so that they do not use the available street parking for all day parking.  The employees and residents must use parking garages.

In the future, when and if the downtown becomes more interesting and vibrant, those who wish to be in the core for many hours, would be encouraged by some method to use the garages too. 

Quote from: stephendare on November 10, 2012, 08:33:23 AM
Pinky, which major regional shopping mall uses parking meters?

So is Downtown Jacksonville a regional shopping center? Show me a major city that doesn't have parking meter's or the new digital meter's stephen? "New York City retired its last spring-loaded, single-space, mechanical parking meter at 10:25 a.m. on December 20, 2006. It was located at the southwest corner of West 10th Street and Surf Avenue in Coney Island. “The world changes. Just as the [subway] token went, now the manual meter has gone,” said Iris Weinshall, the city’s transportation commissioner, at a small ceremony marking the occasion, the New York Times reported. The new digital meters, which now account for all of the city's 62,000 single-space parking meters, are more accurate and more difficult to break into." this is from Wikipedia.

Show me a big city downtown in Duval County that has a situation that requires parking meters?  It sure isn't Jacksonville's Northbank.  Small cities like Winter Park, Sarasota, and Lakeland have more vibrant downtown cores.

Up the street, another example of a city that is finding out people don't like to be penalized to visit downtown is Savannah. For those who want to bum a profit off visitors, Savannah's downtown environment would be ideal. However, that city is another one that has pulled meters off their main retail and dining streets to encourage more people to visit the area.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5114-p1100906.JPG)
Savannah

At the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves what type of downtown do we want?  We aren't NYC. Heck, we aren't even St. Augustine.  Penalizing people to visit a morbid downtown environment isn't going to help accomplish the goal of bringing it back to life.  All it is, is another obstacle to overcome, all for what amounts to probably less than a couple of million a year.  In terms of having a billion dollar budget, that's peanuts.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 09:23:20 AM
Show me a big city downtown in Duval County that has a situation that requires parking meters?  It sure isn't Jacksonville's Northbank.  Small cities like Winter Park, Sarasota, and Lakeland have more vibrant downtown cores.

Up the street, another example of a city that is finding out people don't like to be penalized to visit downtown is Savannah. For those who want to bum a profit off visitors, Savannah's downtown environment would be ideal. However, that city is another one that has pulled meters off their main retail and dining streets to encourage more people to visit the area.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5114-p1100906.JPG)
Savannah

At the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves what type of downtown do we want?  We aren't NYC. Heck, we aren't even St. Augustine.  Penalizing people to visit a morbid downtown environment isn't going to help accomplish the goal of bringing it back to life.  All it is, is another obstacle to overcome, all for what amounts to probably less than a couple of million a year.  In terms of having a billion dollar budget, that's peanuts.

Parking in Savannah, Ga. http://www.savannah.com/parking-in-savannah/

Parking In Savannah



METERED PARKING â€" There are 3,000 parking meters in the Historic District with time limits ranging from 30 minutes to 10 hours. The cost per hour varies with locations and ranges from $.30 to $1.00 per hour.
Free parking at meters on Saturday and Sunday.

VISITOR DAYPASS â€" Visitors may purchase a two-day parking pass for $12, or a single day parking pass for $7 from the Savannah Visitors Center or the Mobility & Parking Services Department.
This pass authorizes free parking on meters of one hour or more, free parking in the City’s lots and parking garages upon availability, and allows exceeding the time limit in time-limit zones. Visitor DayPasses must be filled out with appropriate information to be valid and will not be honored during special events.

DISABILITY PARKING â€" The City provides disability parking spaces for the exclusive use of vehicles displaying the appropriate permit. The spaces are located in all areas of the City and include free spaces as well as metered spaces. These spaces are located on-street throughout the City, in City owned garages, and in City-operated lots such as the River Street parking lots. The disability permit spaces in the Historic District all require payment for parking.

PARKING GARAGES

Bryan Street Garage
(912) 651-6477 â€" Bryan and Abercorn Streets.
Hours of Operation: 24 hours a day/7 days a week.
Daily Rates: $1 per hour or portion thereof, maximum $10.
Evening Rates: Monday-Friday 6PM to 7AM, flat rate of $2. Before 6PM and after 7AM, the daily rate applies.
Weekend Rates: From 7AM Saturday until 7AM Sunday, a flat rate of $3 per day. From 7AM Sunday until 7AM Monday, a flat rate of $3 per day, after 7AM the daily rate applies.

State Street Garage
(912) 651-6473 â€" State and Abercorn Streets.
Hours of Operation: Sunday-Friday, 5AM until 1AM. Saturday, 5AM until 5AM.
Daily Rates: $1 per hour or portion thereof, maximum $10.
Evening Rates: Monday-Friday, 6PM until closing, flat rate of $2. Before 6PM and after 7AM, the daily rate applies.
Weekend Rates: 5AM Saturday until 5AM Sunday, a flat rate of $3 per day. 5AM Sunday until 1AM Monday, a flate rate of $3 per day, after 1AM, the daily rate applies.

Robinson Garage
(912) 651-6478 â€" York and Montgomery Streets.
Hours of Operation: 24 hours a day/7 days a week.
Daily Rates: $1 per hour or portion thereof, maximum $10 per day.
Evening Rates: Monday-Friday, 6PM to 7AM, flat rate of $2. Before 6PM and after 7AM, the daily rate applies.
Weekend Rates: 7AM Saturday until 7AM Sunday, a flat rate of $3 per day. 7AM Sunday until 7AM Monday, a flat rate of $3 per day, after 7AM, the daily rate applies.

Liberty Street Garage
(912) 644-5934 â€" Liberty and Montgomery Streets.
Hours of Operation: Sunday-Friday, 5AM until 1AM. Saturday, 5AM until 3AM.
Daily Rates: $1 per hour or portion thereof, maximum $10.
Evening Rates: Monday-Friday, 6PM until closing, flat rate of $2, Before 6PM and after 7AM, the daily rate applies.
Weekend Rates: 5AM saturday until 3AM Sunday, a flat rate of $1 per day. 5AM Sunday until 1AM Monday, a flat rate of $1 per day, after 1AM, the daily rate applies.

Whitaker Street Garage
(912) 525-2820 â€" Whitaker Street just past Bay Lane.
Hours of Operation: 24 hours a day/7 days a week.
Daily Rates: $2 per hour, maximum daily rate $16 per day.
Monthly Rates: Monday-Friday, 5AM until 8PM, $80. Unlimited access during hours of operation, $95. Reserved space, unlimited access 24/7, $280.

Special Event Rates For All Garages â€" $5 to $20 depending on event

(912) 651-6470 • savannahga.gov

This information courtesy of City of Savannah Mobility and Parking Services.

Quote from: stephendare on November 10, 2012, 08:33:23 AM
Pinky, which major regional shopping mall uses parking meters?

Probably all of the ones that have to protect their short-term parking from the hordes of long-term employee and resident parkers who would otherwise use up all the "good spaces" and discourage shoppers from even coming?? 

Got any other pointless rhetorical questions or tortured analogies for me; I so look forward to them from you when I post.

If_I_Love_U, instead of cutting and pasting that, reread my post and pull up a corresponding map and let us know where the on-street meters are located on the main retail and dining corridors.

IMO the 2 things that stand in the way of ditching the meters (which I as a DT resident favor) are 1. finding money in an already challenged COJ budget to fund parking enforcement minus the revenue from meters and 2. the people invested in the status quo namely businesses that rent/lease parking spaces and COJ employees that maintain the meters.

Quote from: Pinky on November 10, 2012, 09:59:51 AM

Quote from: stephendare on November 10, 2012, 08:33:23 AM
Pinky, which major regional shopping mall uses parking meters?

Probably all of the ones that have to protect their short-term parking from the hordes of long-term employee and resident parkers who would otherwise use up all the "good spaces" and discourage shoppers from even coming?? 

A few questions. First, what residents? This isn't Chicago. We have less than 3,000 residents stretching over two miles from Brooklyn to Commodore Point. On top of that, every place of decent size has it's own dedicated parking, due to our auto centric market.

Second, what downtown workers? We have less than 19k in the Northbank and half of our garages are half empty now. Taking away pay meters but still keeping enforcement isn't going to kill this city. I'm just not following the logic of people avoiding downtown if they aren't first forced to pay for short term parking for the privilege of visiting a morbid environment.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on November 10, 2012, 10:42:48 AM
IMO the 2 things that stand in the way of ditching the meters (which I as a DT resident favor) are 1. finding money in an already challenged COJ budget to fund parking enforcement minus the revenue from meters

Removing pay meters doesn't mean you remove enforcement.  So if they were removed, we'd have to separate the little revenue they generate from parking fines.  Then, the purpose of removing meters would be to make the area more attractive for business.  Assuming that's successful, a vibrant downtown would have significantly higher property values over a dead one with meters.  So the question would be if the resulting increase in tax rolls would out weigh the loss of cash generated by meters?

Quoteand 2. the people invested in the status quo namely businesses that rent/lease parking spaces and COJ employees that maintain the meters.

I'm not sure how either of these two are greatly impacted if you still have time limited parking.  Businesses that rent/lease parking spaces do that to have 24/7 dedicated parking for their businesses.  Neither metered or non-meter time limited spaces are dedicated spaces.

Btw, the funny thing about this discussion is metered parking has been a major complaint of downtown businesses since the 1950s.  Today, we still have the meters but the vibrant retail district is literally a shell of its former self.  The Northbank is so morbid now that the TIF it has continues to lose money because Northbank property values are lower than they were in the 1980s, when it was created.  Why continue going down the path of 60 years of decline?  What are we trying to prove?

I am with Lake and Stephen on this. The status quo just isn 't working. What is lost by trying something new and different? Why be afraid of change?
Ron, I see your points and perhaps there is some way to insure the core area ( near HP) is not inundated by employees of the city taking up the free or honor system spaces.

For any DT residents they should be incentivized for being a 'pioneer' and be given a parking pass to park 'where you want to (DT). Give folks an incentive to move DT, etc.

I am using the old courthouse area ( east bay st) as my example here (but think it should apply to all of DT). Point being I could rarely find a spot to park in front of the old courthouse when it was open. Now it 's quite easy anytime of day.
Recently the city removed the brand new credit card meters and replaced them with the old style meters. The newer ones I am guessing were put nearer the new courthouse. If this is true this is evidence the city knows the parking revenue on east bay would now be a shadow of it's former self, which, by my casual observation, must be true.

Why not try something radical like removing the parking meters?
What really have we got to lose?

I know first hand what DT used to be like & it's not like that ( busy and vibrant with activity/retail) anymore. We should not run DT like  this is 1970. It's time for an overhaul DT and removal of impediments ( such as draconian & antiquated parking measures) & start fresh.

Status Quo has failed. Time for a new direction & not just parking.

Pinky, there is nothing controlled by metered parking that a simple "2 HOUR PARKING" sign couldn't control. Enforcement remains the same, it simply invites more people to use downtown.

Back when all of the major big box stores had downtown locations the people were given a choice. People could shop downtown and pay by the minute, with a ever present risk of going 5 minutes over and getting a hefty fine, or go to a mall with acres of unlimited free parking. The people voted with their feet tires and downtown's everywhere fell into a tailspin.

Imagine how you would feel if you invested in a nice store in San Marco, then I come along and tell you I'm going to charge your patrons for the decision to shop with you.

That video is most excellent! Very impressive Mr. Dare! ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 10:34:48 AM
If_I_Love_U, instead of cutting and pasting that, reread my post and pull up a corresponding map and let us know where the on-street meters are located on the main retail and dining corridors.

Do it yourself! :P

Lol, don't need to.  I already provided an image of downtown Savannah's main commercial corridor illustrating free two hour parking, proving my point that they have been removing meters to encourage business growth. 

However, what I will do is post an image of another city that has also pulled up meters to encourage more retail along its main strip.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Mobile-April-2010/i-KZ4k3bZ/0/M/P1330149-M.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 04:12:01 PM
Lol, don't need to.  I already provided an image of downtown Savannah's main commercial corridor illustrating free two hour parking, proving my point that they have been removing meters to encourage business growth. 

However, what I will do is post an image of another city that has also pulled up meters to encourage more retail along its main strip.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Mobile-April-2010/i-KZ4k3bZ/0/M/P1330149-M.jpg)

Free two hour parking once a day in the Red Zone, isn't all day unless its the weekend!

Free all day parking would fail because downtown residents and workers could easily abuse the facilities. Two hour parking and various other temporal restrictions where warranted would do as much as any meter without the stigma of paying a fine for the use of said space.

Customers happy, business booms, downtown comes back to life. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 10, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
Free all day parking would fail because downtown residents and workers could easily abuse the facilities. Two hour parking and various other temporal restrictions where warranted would do as much as any meter without the stigma of paying a fine for the use of said space.

Customers happy, business booms, downtown comes back to life.

Do you really see the day when Downtown Jacksonville Florida really comes back to life other then some retail stores and places that feed the downtown workers?

The parking meters are just one example of a physical change that MIGHT be a help to make DT more inviting to visit.
No guarantees it would help. Having said that, if nothing drastic (like no meters) is ever tried I seriously doubt you would see any improvement either.
DT needs bold ideas & action today. Not another five years to talk about what it needs.
DIA I am talking to you. Don't be another lame level of bureaucracy. Action now!
(your meter is running so to speak, lol).

Before taking the meters out, perhaps there should be a trial period.  Close off the meter collection areas and post notes allowing 30min-2 hour free parking (depending on area).  While that won't have retail development exploding, at least we'll know where and how much downtown employees use the street spaces.

^I'm confused.  A pay meter doesn't deter a downtown employee from parking in a space any more than enforcing two hour time limits.  I'm not sure you'll discover a trend either way when it comes to downtown employees parking in spaces.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 10, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
Free all day parking would fail because downtown residents and workers could easily abuse the facilities. Two hour parking and various other temporal restrictions where warranted would do as much as any meter without the stigma of paying a fine for the use of said space.

Customers happy, business booms, downtown comes back to life. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 10, 2012, 07:12:06 PM
Before taking the meters out, perhaps there should be a trial period.  Close off the meter collection areas and post notes allowing 30min-2 hour free parking (depending on area).  While that won't have retail development exploding, at least we'll know where and how much downtown employees use the street spaces.

Totally agree.  Seems like most of us on MJ want to try downtown w/o the meters, or at least with them temporarily disabled.  I am wondering how strong is the argument for keeping the meters, and just what is the argument.  Is it an assumed gain in revenue?  Surely the core employees and residents could be encouraged to avoid the spaces so that retail customers and other short-time vehicles could use the spaces.

The primary advantage, as several have said, is that we will be removing a very solid "negative" from the downtown environment.  My customers occasinally comment on the "ticket" problem  when they visit my store, and occasinally one of them will inform me that they "got a ticket" the last time they visited the store. 

A ticket, or the fear of getting one, is a big negative.  One would think that most who are "in charge" about policies in the core would realize this, and seriously consider a test of a few months to determine the effectiveness of having no meters. 

Who's in charge on this aspect?  Are they sleeping?  Do they not understand that, in a fairly awkward objective wherein we are having difficulty improving the core, the best route one can take is to "Increase the positives and Decrease the negatives" whenever possible.  To most, the removal of the meters seems to be a positive. 

Who opposes the meter removal, and why?   

Quote from: thelakelander on November 10, 2012, 07:59:32 PM
^I'm confused.  A pay meter doesn't deter a downtown employee from parking in a space any more than enforcing two hour time limits.  I'm not sure you'll discover a trend either way when it comes to downtown employees parking in spaces.

When I see any employee "feeding the meter" so that they can park at a space for several hours, I will inform the parking enforcement or flaq them down.  Each space is valuable to any retailer.  There will always be the lazy employee who will abuse the system, meters or not.  The answer will be to find a way to insure that they do not use the unmetered spaces if and when the meters are removed. 

Enforcement of two hour limits is the answer.

It's probably been answered before, but briefly, what entity or "who" is opposing the no-meter policy?  But more significant now, what is their most powerful argument for retaining the meters?  Is it a couple of weak arguments, supported by the formidable bureaucratic inertia?

Quote from: stephendare on November 10, 2012, 11:40:45 AM


So, no, you cannot name a single retail mall that uses meters, Pinky?

As Lake points out, there are plenty of parking spaces to accomodate the downtown for the next ten years.  Over 60 % of downtown is now parking.  In 1950, it was less than 2%.

And when Lake reports less than 19k downtown he is being charitable.  There are less than 10k on any regular given day.

In contrast there are over 38 thousand parking spaces in the urban core.

We have a historic failure of a downtown.  There literally hasnt been anything like what happened to downtown jacksonville without a natural disaster.

Our downtown is what happens when a planning community tries to singlemindedly retrofit a dense urban area designed primarily for walkability into a car depended environment and a place that values parking spaces over people, and garages over establishments.

Not trying to pick on you Pinky, but the real question is why do we assume that any urban area must charge for parking at the expense of walkability, when we do not have that same preconception for suburban areas.

I think it is because we have forgotten what walkability actually means.

Y'know Stephen, I don't believe in airbags or turn signals.  Can you show me even ONE elephant that's equipped with airbags or turn signals???  That's sort of what your "mall parking lot" line of attack is like. 

The problem with comparing downtown to a "regional shopping mall", or even "suburban areas" is that they all operate under completely different challenges and circumstances.  As I see it, Downtown is best served by having a system that limits the convenient on-street parking to a few hours at best, to save those prime spots for the visitors we so desperately seek. (Your "walkability" argument is moot if nobody comes downtown to walk, or if they can't find easy parking because folks have camped out in them all day.

The bulk of the posts in this thread concede this simple premise, that prime spots should be saved for short term retail and "visitor" parking, because we really benefit by doing so, although they disagree on how to best enforce it.  I'm simply contending that the system we have in place, which requires the meter-parker to pay a tiny token fee to start an individual timer adjacent to their car, with penalties (tickets) for those who disregard the system, simply is the best method of enforcing it.  Which is probably why the meter method is used in the vast majority of urban areas.  Are there exceptions; yes.  But that doesn't change that it is a system that works in thousands, even tens of thousands of "downtowns" across the country.

I'm curious about the 38,000 "parking spaces" you cite as proof that we have a glut of parking; surely this number includes private lots and decks, no?  What's the number of the currently metered spots which you propose throwing wide open?  And when those 20,000 downtown people fill up every spot on the street, how far will visitors have to park from their destination?  Or are they just supposed to find a public deck and schlep themselves for blocks and blocks?? 

I totally agree that downtown is a clusterfuck.  It's actually one of the few things we do agree on, but we're solid on that one.  I simply don't see a .50 charge to park as the reason why it's a clusterfuck, and especially don't see discarding that system as a path out of clusterfuckdom.  Again, in my opinion it's exactly the opposite.

(For example..  I routinely stop at Chamblins for a bite of breakfast.  I park at a meter.  It costs .50 cents, and enables me to park right there at my destination.  If I instead had to cruise for blocks and blocks to find "what's left", or park in some deck and walk 5 flights of stairs and three blocks I'd just grab breakfast out in the 'burbs.  The meter parking system is directly responsible for my patronage of that downtown business.  Same thing with the new 7-11.  I can park right there, sometimes even at a still-active meter, dash in for my Slurpee, and be on my way in two minutes.  What if every Everbank and AT&T dude was parked curbside for blocks and blocks?  I'm gonna walk three blocks, or hassle with a deck?  For a Slurpee??  Never happen.  Again, the meter system directly influences my usage of downtown businesses in a positive way.

In a nutshell: I don't see this as "broken", nor do I believe discarding the system is any sort of "fix", for anything. 

Finally in closing; So no, you can't  show me ONE, not even ONE SINGLE elephant that comes equipped with airbags or turn signals.  If enormous and unpredictable beasts don't get em, then why should cars??  So clearly removing car airbags is the answer to preventing auto accidents. 

Quote from: Pinky on November 10, 2012, 11:54:36 PM
The problem with comparing downtown to a "regional shopping mall", or even "suburban areas" is that they all operate under completely different challenges and circumstances.  As I see it, Downtown is best served by having a system that limits the convenient on-street parking to a few hours at best, to save those prime spots for the visitors we so desperately seek. (Your "walkability" argument is moot if nobody comes downtown to walk, or if they can't find easy parking because folks have camped out in them all day.

We all agree that a system that keeps the downtown parking fluid is the best way to manage our parking.

QuoteThe bulk of the posts in this thread concede this simple premise, that prime spots should be saved for short term retail and "visitor" parking, because we really benefit by doing so, although they disagree on how to best enforce it.  I'm simply contending that the system we have in place, which requires the meter-parker to pay a tiny token fee to start an individual timer adjacent to their car, with penalties (tickets) for those who disregard the system, simply is the best method of enforcing it.  Which is probably why the meter method is used in the vast majority of urban areas.  Are there exceptions; yes.  But that doesn't change that it is a system that works in thousands, even tens of thousands of "downtowns" across the country.

There is a difference between a system of ridged controls, with obvious and visible penalties, and a system of controls that  is warm and inviting to a first time visitor but only slightly less ridged (at least my version would be).

QuoteI'm curious about the 38,000 "parking spaces" you cite as proof that we have a glut of parking; surely this number includes private lots and decks, no?  What's the number of the currently metered spots which you propose throwing wide open?  And when those 20,000 downtown people fill up every spot on the street, how far will visitors have to park from their destination?  Or are they just supposed to find a public deck and schlep themselves for blocks and blocks?? 

According to the city parking division, there are 43,000 parking spaces (both private and public, garage, lots and curbside) in the downtown (both sides) and 4,500 parking meters.

There would be ZERO CHANGE in availability or temporal fines, if we trashed all 4,500 meters, (I'd suggest we could sell them to another city or for scrap value and recover at least part of our expenses). But look at what you suggest will happen if we remove the meters:  "And when those 20,000 downtown people fill up every spot on the street, how far will visitors have to park from their destination?" BINGO! The streets without meters WILL fill with cars and their passengers, it's a problem that every city wishes it had.

AutoChalk is a new technology that finds parking offenders with a “photographic, laser, and GPS” system to acquire photographic proof of parking violations. This system has been installed in San Bernardino California's 10 parking enforcement vehicles and will be able to identify vehicles that have been parked in a certain spot for too long. GPS, along with photographs, can detect the color and length of a car, and how long a car has been parked in a certain spot. This technology can also read license plates, which allows it to identify repeated offenders and stolen vehicles through the state tracking system. While the autoChalk can tattle on a vehicle in violation, it still does not have the technology to issue a citation itself, thus the parking enforcement division remains on duty.

QuoteI totally agree that downtown is a clusterfuck.  It's actually one of the few things we do agree on, but we're solid on that one.  I simply don't see a .50 charge to park as the reason why it's a clusterfuck, and especially don't see discarding that system as a path out of clusterfuckdom.  Again, in my opinion it's exactly the opposite.

Making downtown inviting is critical to our future success in it's rebirth, and based on your statement above, you agree that free parking will make an quantifiable change in it's success. 

Quote(For example..  I routinely stop at Chamblins for a bite of breakfast.  I park at a meter.  It costs .50 cents, and enables me to park right there at my destination.  If I instead had to cruise for blocks and blocks to find "what's left", or park in some deck and walk 5 flights of stairs and three blocks I'd just grab breakfast out in the 'burbs.  The meter parking system is directly responsible for my patronage of that downtown business.  Same thing with the new 7-11.  I can park right there, sometimes even at a still-active meter, dash in for my Slurpee, and be on my way in two minutes.  What if every Everbank and AT&T dude was parked curbside for blocks and blocks?  I'm gonna walk three blocks, or hassle with a deck?  For a Slurpee??  Never happen.  Again, the meter system directly influences my usage of downtown businesses in a positive way.

So meters are good because they keep enough people out of downtown that you can almost always find an open space so your can buy a Slurpee? You go on to confirm that if every space was full, you won't hassle with parking for a fee to buy your Slurpee. So two more times you have simply confirmed what we have been saying for years. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE DOWNTOWN, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST MAKE IT INVITING. It would appear that WE ALL agree that trashing the meters in favor of controlled temporal parking is the answer.

Near the top of this reply I said; "...a system of controls that is warm and inviting to a first time visitor but only slightly less ridged (at least my version would be)." In case some haven't heard my Portland, Oregon traffic violation story I'll repeat it here.

Back in the 1970's while visiting downtown Portland on Burlington Northern Railroad business, I got stuck in a office WAY past the time on my meter. When I came out, sure enough, I had a ticket on my windshield. When I opened it I was happily surprised by the text. It clearly said I was in violation but on the conditions of 1.) being a out of region visitor, and 2.) being a first time violation in the region, entitled me to an explanation of the function of the downtown meters, requested my cooperation in the future. More then that on the flip side was a printed message with a rose emblem (the symbol of Portland) that invited me to stay, visit X,Y,Z, attractions and a tiny map of downtown. Needless to say, I NEVER got a ticket in Portland and have never forgot the royal welcome I got from Portland's Parking Division. We should at least do the same thing here, the reputation would be priceless.

Pinkster, I have to say that keeping the status quo on anything Downtown is questionable logic at this point. Parking is but one example. Two way vs one way streets is next on my list.
Cops actually walking a beat is another.
If we can't do anything different, even just for the sake of trying then why even try to help DT?
The essence of the parking meters is the anxiety one feels in the back of their mind knowing the clock is ticking.
If you had a lunch date and it was getting past 45 min I know you start to worry about going to feed the meter or move your car. This is exactly why the meters suck. It causes a person to behave differently than they would if they were eating at a restaurant in a mall for instance. How can you not acknowledge that is what really kills the buzz for visitors DT. It is the worry of getting a freakin' ticket. And in this era, especially peeps under 30 or so, they are going to avoid that hassle and bypass DT.
Not everyone parking DT is in and out in the two examples you described.
If you like the status quo that is your decision. Doing something different takes some real effort and thought. I'd rather be in that group myself.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2012, 12:35:07 AM
why do you suppose that no major retail centers use parking meters Pinky?

Wait, let me get this straight: You think that parking at major regional malls is *free*?

Newsflash Skippy: Mall tenants pay for the parking as part of their rent.  It's not some Land Of Milk, Honey And Free Parking; it costs money to build and maintain, and that money (along with the money to build and maintain the common areas) comes directly from the rent.  So I guess you're suggesting that downtown merchants should be ponying up to pay for their customer's parking, like they would do if they were located in a mall?

Quote from: marksjax on November 11, 2012, 04:53:06 AM
Pinkster, I have to say that keeping the status quo on anything Downtown is questionable logic at this point. Parking is but one example. Two way vs one way streets is next on my list.
Cops actually walking a beat is another.
If we can't do anything different, even just for the sake of trying then why even try to help DT?
The essence of the parking meters is the anxiety one feels in the back of their mind knowing the clock is ticking.
If you had a lunch date and it was getting past 45 min I know you start to worry about going to feed the meter or move your car. This is exactly why the meters suck. It causes a person to behave differently than they would if they were eating at a restaurant in a mall for instance. How can you not acknowledge that is what really kills the buzz for visitors DT. It is the worry of getting a freakin' ticket. And in this era, especially peeps under 30 or so, they are going to avoid that hassle and bypass DT.
Not everyone parking DT is in and out in the two examples you described.
If you like the status quo that is your decision. Doing something different takes some real effort and thought. I'd rather be in that group myself.

I'd rather be in the group that doesn't resort to knee-jerk reactionary and ill-conceived changes simply for the sake of "fixing" things which actually work.

If the threat of parking tickets is what's keeping downtown empty, then why is it empty at night and on the weekends??  Again, in my opinion the meter system works to manage the available spaces most efficiently during periods of peak demand (M-F 8 to 6) without requiring the city to completely revamp, tool up and staff a new method. 

Finally, if someone is getting nervous at the 45 minute mark of a lunch meeting, it's because they were too stupid/lazy/cheap/unprepared to pay for two hours of parking as the meters allow.  That's a fault on their part, not on the meter system.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2012, 12:35:07 AM
why do you suppose that no major retail centers use parking meters Pinky?

So, no, you can't show me a single elephant that comes equipped with airbags and safety lighting.

;) ;D ;D

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 11, 2012, 12:41:26 AM


So meters are good because they keep enough people out of downtown that you can almost always find an open space so your can buy a Slurpee? You go on to confirm that if every space was full, you won't hassle with parking for a fee to buy your Slurpee. So two more times you have simply confirmed what we have been saying for years. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE DOWNTOWN, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST MAKE IT INVITING. It would appear that WE ALL agree that trashing the meters in favor of controlled temporal parking is the answer.

Aiiiiieeee.  No dude, I haven't "confirmed" anything of the sort

If you read my statement over again, I'm saying that meters are good because they keep the more convenient spots available for downtown visitors, and in doing so make downtown more inviting for said visitors.  I totally agree that it's good to make downtown "inviting", but "WE ALL" do not agree that yanking the meters is the answer, nor do I agree that their presence is what's keeping people away.  In the experiences I cite, they are precisely what encourages me to shop downtown.

And yes, I have confirmed that because the meter system works so well, I AM able to dash in for my Slurpee.  What's your point??  I didn't say I wouldn't "park for a fee"; jesus dude, at a meter I'm "parking for a fee", I said that I wouldn't patronize these businesses if I had to go on an endless search for parking blocks away or up in some deck.  Because it's inconvenient and uninviting.  So the meter system directly supports me shopping downtown.  Get it?

Here, easy solution:

Leave the meters to discourage long term parking, but institute a policy that if you do overstay the meter limit, we'll waive the fee if you attach a receipt from a downtown business from that date to the ticket instead of a check.

Friendly, flexible and still effective at managing the availability of curbside parking. 

I have noticed a lot more JSO cars using parking spaces by the old courthouse, but alas, they have the ability to not be anxious that their meter flipped over to expired. Not that I care really. But there is no chance of revenue if a city plated car sits all day in a metered parking spot. And revenue is what this is all about isn't it?
Pinky, your retail biz turnover argument is a valid point to some degree. And the city will make that same argument. But this is really about revenue and maintaining status quo.
If any entity wants to maintain status quo it is the gov't (at any level).
Also, not sure all meters are now two hours. Perhaps that has finally taken place on every street? I know east bay street was one hour previously.
And if there were enough peeps DT at night (regularly) the city would charge I am guessing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bneviIHiIKs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Parking meters are NOT an inducement to shop or do business downtown, quite the opposite.  Some people don't carry cash at all these days.  Even those that do, do not have more than 1 or 2 quarters on them, if that. There is always the prospect of getting a ticket or having to rush back to your car to prevent getting one.  It's is a pain in the ass that can be avoided by simply going elesewhere, and many people do.

Fortunately, their is a workable solution. Take the meters out and simply enforce the time limits.   The meters maids are already doing the rounds, so there is nothing new there.  Just upgrade their technology if needed.  You will still get the fine revenue, albeit there would be the loss of meter revenue.  However, as Lake alluded to, the increased property values should compensate.  Plus there would be higher sales tax and business license revenue too.

I live in Greenville SC and the parking is handled just as described above.  It works great.  Just this week, I went DT for a dentist appointment.  I parked about 35 feet from the door, needed no coins, finished my appoitment in less than the 2 hour limit, and left with no more hassle than if I had gone to a suburban one-practice office.  My dentist use to be the only one downtown, but just in the last year three other practices have opened in the core.

Most parking spaces are 2 hours, but some are 1 hour and still others 30 or 15 minutes.  The latter are the ones closest to the 'quick turnover' businesses like banks.  The EASIEST time to find a space is during business hours.  Outside of business hours, all spaces are free without time limits, and the throngs of restaurant and bar patrons and shoppers make finding a space a challenge during peak times.  As problems go, that is a good problem to have.         

It really isn't difficult folks.     

The only upgraded technology needed is a stick with a piece of chalk tied to the end of it. They just walk by and mark one of the tires and when they come back around in a few hours, if their chalk mark is still there they know it gets a ticket. This is already how they do it pretty much everywhere else. It wouldn't reduce ticket revenue but would cut 90% of the cost out of it (no meters to maintain) and make the place a whole lot less threatening to visitors.

Chalk on a stick has been in use for decades and is highly efficient and cost effective. No one can break into a stick of chalk and steal the quarters, the practice of marking a tire with chalk makes for a healthy job environment (walk your way to a new slim you) for the enforcers and there is a built in overtime parking forgiveness because the enforcers cannot and will not race their clock to get a ticket quota.

Quote from: vicupstate on November 11, 2012, 10:02:48 AM
Parking meters are NOT an inducement to shop or do business downtown, quite the opposite.  Some people don't carry cash at all these days.  Even those that do, do not have more than 1 or 2 quarters on them, if that. There is always the prospect of getting a ticket or having to rush back to your car to prevent getting one.  It's is a pain in the ass that can be avoided by simply going elesewhere, and many people do.

Fortunately, their is a workable solution. Take the meters out and simply enforce the time limits.   The meters maids are already doing the rounds, so there is nothing new there.  Just upgrade their technology if needed.  You will still get the fine revenue, albeit there would be the loss of meter revenue.  However, as Lake alluded to, the increased property values should compensate.  Plus there would be higher sales tax and business license revenue too.

I live in Greenville SC and the parking is handled just as described above.  It works great.  Just this week, I went DT for a dentist appointment.  I parked about 35 feet from the door, needed no coins, finished my appoitment in less than the 2 hour limit, and left with no more hassle than if I had gone to a suburban one-practice office.  My dentist use to be the only one downtown, but just in the last year three other practices have opened in the core.

Most parking spaces are 2 hours, but some are 1 hour and still others 30 or 15 minutes.  The latter are the ones closest to the 'quick turnover' businesses like banks.  The EASIEST time to find a space is during business hours.  Outside of business hours, all spaces are free without time limits, and the throngs of restaurant and bar patrons and shoppers make finding a space a challenge during peak times.  As problems go, that is a good problem to have.         

It really isn't difficult folks.     

All the meters are being replaced to take credit card

Except where there is little need then u get the coin operated style. Busiest areas get newest versions.

It must be a thankless job collecting the quarters. We heard one such worker loudly saying over and over,
'I hate my job, but I am happy to have a job'. COJ might need to council him to remind him he represents the city.

Quote from: Pinky on November 11, 2012, 07:59:47 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 11, 2012, 12:41:26 AM


So meters are good because they keep enough people out of downtown that you can almost always find an open space so your can buy a Slurpee? You go on to confirm that if every space was full, you won't hassle with parking for a fee to buy your Slurpee. So two more times you have simply confirmed what we have been saying for years. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE DOWNTOWN, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST MAKE IT INVITING. It would appear that WE ALL agree that trashing the meters in favor of controlled temporal parking is the answer.

Aiiiiieeee.  No dude, I haven't "confirmed" anything of the sort

If you read my statement over again, I'm saying that meters are good because they keep the more convenient spots available for downtown visitors, and in doing so make downtown more inviting for said visitors.

"...meters are good because they keep the more convenient spots available..." There's your answer. Paraphrased you are stating that; the meters are good because they keep enough people out of downtown parking spaces so you'll always be able to find a convenient parking spot.

If keeping a bunch of downtown parking 'available.' as opposed to filling every downtown spot with customers, then you are right, the meters discourage people to visit downtown parking. Again there is NOTHING in a meter that couldn't be accomplished with posted temporal parking limitations, except for additional maintenance.

Quote[/b]  I totally agree that it's good to make downtown "inviting", but "WE ALL" do not agree that yanking the meters is the answer, nor do I agree that their presence is what's keeping people away.  In the experiences I cite, they are precisely what encourages me to shop downtown.[/b]

Correct yanking out the meters isn't THE answer, merely part of a much more comprehensive approach to making it inviting.

QuoteAnd yes, I have confirmed that because the meter system works so well, I AM able to dash in for my Slurpee.  What's your point??  I didn't say I wouldn't "park for a fee"; jesus dude, at a meter I'm "parking for a fee", I said that I wouldn't patronize these businesses if I had to go on an endless search for parking blocks away or up in some deck.  Because it's inconvenient and uninviting.  So the meter system directly supports me shopping downtown.  Get it?

So what is the difference between a 2 hour metered parking, and a 2 hour free temporal parking space? You whole argument rides on meters keeping spaces available, a nice way to say they drive off customers.

QuoteIf the threat of parking tickets is what's keeping downtown empty, then why is it empty at night and on the weekends??

Because retailers can't stay in business if their work day is reduced to 6 pm - 9 pm, so if you are going to compete with Stephendare's free parking at malls, you must level the playing field. Mall parking is free 24/7 and that makes a huge difference in the success of the enterprises located therein.

At least the new ones also take dimes and nickels...

Parking meters are here to stay I really don't see the point in removing them. The parking garages and parking lots should have a program that gives two hours of free parking and the retail and restaurants should help pay those fees. If a customer informs the business owner that he or she is parking at those places and the customer has bought $20.00 dollars of food or merchandise. But to remove the meters and give free parking to all in the downtown area is not the answer. Besides the COJ needs the funds from the tickets.

They are here to stay? Just because?
The city better be revenue neutral or at a loss on parking meters or they got some 'splaining to do

Parking meters as a source of revenue is a no-no:

"Parking meters have been challenged in court many times for many many years, but are considered legal if the parking meters are used for purposes of parking regulation and not for revenue purposes. In a 1937 case in Oklahoma,[16] H.E. Duncan contended that the ordinances impose a fee for the free use of the streets, which is a right of all citizens of the state. The Courts ruled that free use of the streets is not an absolute right, but agreed with an unpublished 1936 Florida court decision that said, "If it had been shown that the streets on which parking meters have been installed under this ordinance are not streets where the traffic is sufficiently heavy to require any parking regulations of this sort, or that the city was making inordinate and unjustified profits by means of the parking meters, and was resorting to their use not for regulatory purposes but for revenue only, there might have been a different judgment."

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on November 11, 2012, 05:54:57 PM
Parking meters are here to stay I really don't see the point in removing them. The parking garages and parking lots should have a program that gives two hours of free parking and the retail and restaurants should help pay those fees. If a customer informs the business owner that he or she is parking at those places and the customer has bought $20.00 dollars of food or merchandise.

Interesting concept for the garages, we could call it "validation!"

QuoteBut to remove the meters and give free parking to all in the downtown area is not the answer.

Because? Um? People would actually come downtown? Lot's of people would come downtown? Lot's and lot's of people would come downtown? ...And they would all still be held to the temporal limitations posted on the signs and enforced by the division of Parking Enforcement.

QuoteBesides the COJ needs the funds from the tickets.

The 4,500 meters do not cover the expense of their own operation and maintenance, we have to subsidize them to have the privilege of being fined by them or ticketed for miscalculating them. With temporal free parking zones we would still retain the revenue from parking violations, without the need to pay to keep the meters running.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 11, 2012, 08:43:38 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on November 11, 2012, 05:54:57 PM
Parking meters are here to stay I really don't see the point in removing them. The parking garages and parking lots should have a program that gives two hours of free parking and the retail and restaurants should help pay those fees. If a customer informs the business owner that he or she is parking at those places and the customer has bought $20.00 dollars of food or merchandise.

Interesting concept for the garages, we could call it "validation!"

QuoteBut to remove the meters and give free parking to all in the downtown area is not the answer.

Because? Um? People would actually come downtown? Lot's of people would come downtown? Lot's and lot's of people would come downtown? ...And they would all still be held to the temporal limitations posted on the signs and enforced by the division of Parking Enforcement.

QuoteBesides the COJ needs the funds from the tickets.

The 4,500 meters do not cover the expense of their own operation and maintenance, we have to subsidize them to have the privilege of being fined by them or ticketed for miscalculating them. With temporal free parking zones we would still retain the revenue from parking violations, without the need to pay to keep the meters running.

"People would actually come downtown? Lot's of people would come downtown? Lot's and lot's of people would come downtown? ...And they would all still be held to the temporal limitations posted on the signs and enforced by the division of Parking Enforcement."

To see what a few stores and restaurants "Downtown Jacksonville combines the latest in retail and historic shops which have served locals for decades. For the worldly, sophisticated shopper, stop by the Museum of Contemporary Art Jacksonville's store, located in the heart of Downtown at Hemming Plaza, for the best in contemporary designs, home accessories and art books. Speaking of books, Chamblin's Uptown Books has got tons of them! From out-of-print books to the latest novels and more, visitors will find a verifiable bookmine. The cozy, yet trendy cafe on premises is a perfect spot to peruse the literary stock as well. Locally owned, Jacobs Jewelers has been serving customers since 1890 and has the distinction of being Florida's oldest jewelry store. It is here that one will discover fine gems, pearls and have crystal from Waterford and Swarovski at your fingertips, while visiting this historic Jacksonville landmark.

Also in Downtown, along the Northbank of the St. Johns River sits Jacksonville Landing. This riverfront marketplace features brand name stores like Nine West and The Body Shop and local retailers showcasing the flavor of Northeast Florida. Stop by Sundrez to pickup a cigar, as the shop has the only walk-in humidor in Downtown Jacksonville, or treat that special someone by picking up a few souvenirs to remember your trip to Northeast Florida. The Jacksonville Landing is also home to The Toy Factory, a huge hit with kids of all ages. Talk a break from shopping and dine at one of over 20 restaurant options or listen to live entertainment nightly along the St. Johns." http://www.visitjacksonville.com/things-to-do/shopping/downtown-retail

Getting rid of parking meters so the masses of Jacksonville residents can shop downtown is just silly. When those same people can go to any mall or St. Johns Town Center and shop till you drop. ::)

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
If I loved you, I think this is becoming pretty obvious that you are garden guy deciding to troll the forums.

I can tell you that I personally will not be taking any further of your posts seriously, and I would advise other posters to adopt the same position regarding your comments.

Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.
- Lao Tzu

DIA Board meeting 7 hours out. Parking is on the agenda. This is it. Show up and ask for your special Authority zone parking pass.

The legislation is being created and drafted.

Anyone going?

From the TU:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-12-03/story/jacksonville-council-mulling-changes-downtown-parking (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-12-03/story/jacksonville-council-mulling-changes-downtown-parking)

Jacksonville council mulling changes to downtown parking

By Steve Patterson

Jacksonville’s City Council could allow changes to parking rates downtown to draw in more visitors and new businesses.
The city controls about 4,400 parking spaces in lots or at meters, but ordinances lock in rates for both with only a few exceptions.
“That doesn’t necessarily make the most sense, because it makes it very difficult to change things,” Council President Bill Bishop said. He is co-sponsoring legislation (bill 2012-674) with Don Redman to let the city’s economic development office bargain with companies that might be ready to lease big blocks of parking.
The bill would let the city offer discounts on its usual $85-a-month leases for employee parking if companies will sign year-long agreements or if the type of company or the deal fits goals the city sets for developing an area.
It would also let the economic development office develop new rates for each city-owned lot.
The change “allows us to reflect what the private sector already does, and … really just increase our chance of bringing jobs downtown,” said David DeCamp, a spokesman for Mayor Alvin Brown.
Although one inventory of downtown parking counted thousands of excess spots, complaints about finding parking that’s convenient and affordable have lingered for years.
The city could relieve some gripes by adjusting operation of its lots and garages to meet customers’ needs, said Jack Shad, head of the city public parking office.
“They need to have prices and terms that make sense. It’s not just the city [property] that is reflected, but it’s all of downtown,” Shad said, adding that’s part of improving how visitors perceived downtown. “… The more we make it customer-friendly, the more we encourage people to come downtown.”
The legislation also would give the Office of Economic Development the option of changing what the city charges for metered spaces in specific areas â€" either the hourly rates for parking, how fast the meters expire or times they’re in effect.
How often the meters expire is of real interest to some downtown businesses, and what they want varies shop by shop, said Terry Lorince, executive director of Downtown Vision Inc., a group that works as a downtown advocate and information clearinghouse.
“Some businesses may only want 30-minute meters … another might want only two-hour parking,” said Lorince, whose group asked businesses for reactions to the bill.
The city also could set “discount programs” that would lower the cost in some as-yet unnamed, situations. The programs also could allow stores to sell specially priced smart cards that would work on meters.
“What we like about it is the customer service component of this,” Lorince said, because of the chance to fit meter settings with the needs of surrounding businesses.
Friday, the group posted a blog that endorsed the bill but said it favored having the Downtown Investment Authority handle parking rates and incentives, rather than the economic development office, which has citywide roles. Bishop said the same day that the bill might still be changed to address a role for the authority.
steve.patterson@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4263


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-12-03/story/jacksonville-council-mulling-changes-downtown-parking#ixzz2E0AhXgpB

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
If I loved you, I think this is becoming pretty obvious that you are garden guy deciding to troll the forums.

I can tell you that I personally will not be taking any further of your posts seriously, and I would advise other posters to adopt the same position regarding your comments.

agree!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simple solutions are never possible Downtown. Our elected officials and the bureaucracy they control cannot or will not embrace any 'radical' ideas such as doing away with parking meters. What they will do is 'tweak' the current set up somewhat but that still maintains the status quo.
I stand by my position:

86 ALL parking meters Downtown!

Plus my new chant: 'Staus Quo Has Got To Go!'

Pass it along.

Mark is correct.  The meter division of Jacksonville, since its inception which was about 60 or 70 years ago, has never made enough revenue off of the meters themselves to even pay for the division.  This was also true for Jax Beach, the meters there were removed about 30 years ago mainly due to this fact. 

The fact is that the taxpayers have already paid taxes, property taxes and sales and use taxes, that pay for the streets to be built and maintained.  The meters are a direct form of double taxation.  Direct form.    If a lot is built, or a street is built, with bond money that will be repaid directly from the meter money collected from that lot or street then the meter would be justifiable.  That is, justifiable to any sane person. 

Would Town Center be packed tonight if there were parking meters there to deal with?  Heck no! 

Get rid of the meters and Downtown Jax will be a lot more friendly and accessible.

MarksJax and subman your ingnorance must be corrected. The Parking Meter Division makes $650,000 (Dimes Nickels Quarters add up) per year on meters.  The meter division is a self supporting area, (No money from the taxpayer) so after the paying for direct and indirect cost the excess, around $400,000, goes to the general fund for whatever the city wants to use it for.

Quote from: ben says on December 03, 2012, 10:16:22 AM

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
If I loved you, I think this is becoming pretty obvious that you are garden guy deciding to troll the forums.

I can tell you that I personally will not be taking any further of your posts seriously, and I would advise other posters to adopt the same position regarding your comments.

agree!!!!!!!!!!!!

F.Y.I. Ben one of the best things put on this site has to be "You are ignoring this user."  :'(

Quote from: airdalecv59 on December 03, 2012, 07:29:31 PM
MarksJax and subman your ingnorance must be corrected. The Parking Meter Division makes $650,000 (Dimes Nickels Quarters add up) per year on meters.  The meter division is a self supporting area, (No money from the taxpayer) so after the paying for direct and indirect cost the excess, around $400,000, goes to the general fund for whatever the city wants to use it for.

If true, I don't know how this helps the cause of downtown revitalization.  You mean we're punishing downtown visitors for passing up more vibrant destinations for the privilege to visit something that died two decades ago?  Doesn't sound like a good long term solution to increasing the downtown tax base and vibrancy.

There is no such thing as "free" that is the caplistist society we live in. The purpose of metered parking in a nutshell is for short term parking only. Kinda like the express lane at the store, I have owned several business in the urban cores in the Northeast, and had metered spaces in front of my business never had a problem. Everyone cites meters and lack of parking that's stopping downtown from moving forward but that's not the problem the problem lies within the "Lack of Turning Over of Spaces " 

Quote from: airdalecv59 on December 03, 2012, 10:44:48 PM
There is no such thing as "free" that is the caplistist society we live in.

There is a such thing as a limp noodle of a downtown and we can proudly say that we have one.  Historically, our parking policy has been mentioned as one of the reasons for creating the environment that exists today.  At what point does it become worth it to try and move away from policies that have clearly not worked to the betterment of downtown in over 50 years?

QuoteThe purpose of metered parking in a nutshell is for short term parking only. Kinda like the express lane at the store, I have owned several business in the urban cores in the Northeast, and had metered spaces in front of my business never had a problem.

Except the express lane costs you the same as the regular lane to use.  We don't necessarily have to charge people to ensure short term parking, if that's the ultimate goal.  Time limited spaces are proven solutions to that situation.  Metered parking (especially those that only take quarters) end up sending people to spend money in nearby neighborhoods where they don't have to worry about carrying a pocket full of quarters.

QuoteEveryone cites meters and lack of parking that's stopping downtown from moving forward but that's not the problem the problem lies within the "Lack of Turning Over of Spaces "

I don't think anyone believes parking is the only thing that has been a negative for downtown growth.  However, our parking policy has contributed with several others reasons in the decline of downtown.  I really don't understand why so many want to hang on and preserve policies that clearly work against the ultimate goal of revitalizing the area.

Airdale, thanks for the insult on one of your first posts, I feel honored.   ::)

Anyway, gov't is not supposed to make 'excessive profit' from the meters. This is long known and based on Florida court cases dating back to the 1930's. Now maybe $400k is not excessive to you but I would say anything over $5k was too much.

Here's the deal, take some of the good suggestions here and TRY them. What on earth do we have to lose? The status quo as regards Downtown has failed us. We are managing Downtown like it is the center of activity it once was 50 years ago.

Go look at how many empty streets with no cars parked in front of the meters there are on any given day. The further away from Hemming Plaza you go the more you see the lack of need for 4500 (?) parking meters in our fair city.

We are not innovating we are regurgitating (the same old ideas).

Time for a change I'd say. Ya got nothing to lose, nothing.

Reassign the meter guys to public works and dismantle the office of special events & let public works build band stages & such instead of hiring PRI ($$$), cause public works used to do that stuff anyway. Then take over cutting the grass in the medians and managing our concert and sports facilities like we used to do successfully (Don Curtis was the Man) .

See, more innovative and money saving ideas free of charge.

But unless we let go the status quo nothing will change...

"Status Quo has got to go!"

Ignorance: "Lack of Knowledge" Marksjax i was referring to your statement that they Parking meters do not produce any revenue and they due. As far as time zones i will enlighten you as to why they don"t work. Time limits are not only inefficient but also difficult to enforce. Surveys (I will refer to Seattle,) often show that more then half of all cars parked in zones with time limits either violate the time limit or are parked in an illegal space ( Fright Loading Zone etc)  and the Labor cost to enforce the time limits would exceed ticket revenue. You would have to have a enforcement person on every street. Not cost effective.

Another issue with Time Zones is people who work in the core, who don't want to park in a long time garage, even if they don't violate the time limits, drivers can evade them them by moving there vehicle regularly, thus occupying a space for a potianal customer for a business.

Quote from: airdalecv59 on December 04, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Ignorance: "Lack of Knowledge" Marksjax i was referring to your statement that they Parking meters do not produce any revenue and they due.

While I'm the last person to claim mastery of the English (or Spanish) languages, it seems to me suggesting 'ignorance' while using two incorrect words in the same sentence speaks volumes.

QuoteAs far as time zones i will enlighten you as to why they don"t work. Time limits are not only inefficient but also difficult to enforce. Surveys (I will refer to Seattle,) often show that more then half of all cars parked in zones with time limits either violate the time limit or are parked in an illegal space ( Fright Loading Zone etc)  and the Labor cost to enforce the time limits would exceed ticket revenue. You would have to have a enforcement person on every street. Not cost effective.

If someone parks in an unmetered 'freight loading zone,' what is the difference if the spaces before and after it are metered? You simply have the exact same number of spaces, the same amount of people parking and the same amount of ticket revenue by removing the meters. What you lose is the cost of maintaining the darn things and I'd call that 'cost effective.'

QuoteAnother issue with Time Zones is people who work in the core, who don't want to park in a long time garage, even if they don't violate the time limits, drivers can evade them them by moving there vehicle regularly, thus occupying a space for a potianal customer for a business.

What stops a person from violating the time limit today by going downstairs and feeding the meter? Same result. Use of any enforcement check ranging from chalk on a stick to the new GPS systems can take care of that.

Airedale, I never stated that they did not produce revenue. Obviously they do. My comment was as to the legality of doing so (excessive profit).
But mainly my post is about the need to radically change the way we operate Downtown and starting with the meters seemed a good choice.

Modern technology would allow COJ to adequately enforce time limits without having an "enforcement person on every street".  Ticket revenue would, I would think, cover most of the cost of that equipment.  Jax's DT probably does not even vaguely resemble the northeast urban areas you lived in.  Time limits appear to be working well in downtowns like ours.

I favor time limits to replace meters but I'm flexible.  Maybe outsourcing meters and enforcement would be an acceptable compromise especially if rates could fluctuate relative to demand.  In other words the most sought after on-street parking spots would have a high rate while ones rarely used would be free.  The farther you're willing to walk the less you pay.

This video shows what Indianapolis did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdPATw50og (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdPATw50og)

That is not what I had in mind. I am totally against privatization. Just ask Chicago how that is working out for them.
Just to clarify: My plan is no meters, no fee to park, period.

Well it happened to me Mark! Just two weeks ago I was at the VA clinic for one of those dreadful fasting vampire donations. I left there about 1pm cut over to Main and headed for downtown. I had it all figured out, park near Hemming Plaza and visit Subway and the library. I turned west on Adams from Main and started looking for a parking spot, turning up Hogan I found a great spot near the UPS store. It was then that I discovered I failed to bring a penny in change with me and a I had lost my VA 'Official broken person' parking permit a few weeks before and it hadn't been replaced yet.

So there I sat, Subway was almost within sight, right around the corner. The hot dog cart in the Plaza looked pretty tempting too. Finally, deciding I didn't need a $30 dollar ticket for a $5 dollar sandwich, I pulled back out and crossed the river to San Marco and the San Marco Deli. DAMN THOSE METERS!